Noob with a question.

Hello all! Ive gone in, through and out the otherside reading the threads, with many questions answered, but one still left up in the air. IMS (im sorry dont flame me). Im actually a benz enthusiast, frequent benzworld and am a R129/M120 buff myself- Porsche not so much... So heres the question I have to give (please dont say if you do a search you will find the answer)... Well brief story first: Theres a 99 996 with 170k miles on the odo, clean as can be, in and out. The seller isnt giving me a weird vibe and seemed to be pretty straight forward and upfront about his car- he says it needs a new engine. He hasent started it in 10 months- its been tucked away in the garage under a car cover and when I asked him to start it the battery was dead, so ill be back tomorrow to hear it run- supposedly for the first time since he parked it, but he says theres a clicking/clacking noise (i know... super descriptive). When he heard this noise he was about 3 blocks from home. Drove it home, called his mechanic and the mechanic over the phone told him it needs a rebuild because the IMS is broken. Since then its been in the garage, life happened, fast forward to now where im in the picture. What is this fabled sound of a broken IMS? How much should I offer him for the car with the mindset it needs a new motor/rebuild? Im somewhat mechanically savvy, since Im fairly certain the m120 v12 is the most complicated thing on earth, and if i can work on it, then I can tackle this. Opinions? Thoughts? Even if i dont buy this car, Im for certain picking up a 996 sooner or later, so ill be creeping around more and more. Thanks- Ben Edit: The car has new brakes, tires, even keys, looks borderline flawless- owned since 2006, just this was the straw that broke the back I guess. Seemed like its been taken care of and the owner doesnt seem like the type with a heavy foot.... if you can even size someone up to guess if they did.

Show him estimates of Flat6 rebuilds then offer him no more than $5k. Historically that's been the going rate for '99 non runners. You might luck out with a minor repair or might get hit with a major repair. You always should always factor in the worst case scenario though. Either way if you don't have a $20-25k budget for this, you should reevaluate.

If it turns out the motor is junk you an always jump over to eBay and find a used one as they seem to always have a few floating around. Got a low mileage 3.6 from an 03 for $9500 right now. Have seen them priced lower as well. Just a thought.

I have a friend that has a dismantler (only does Mercedes SLs), looked into the database all dismantlers use. Only 4 in the country right now, between 4500 and 6500 (crazy since an m120 costs like 6500 bucks.. never assumed this engine would be priced up there too). I guess it depends all on what it sounds like tomorrow. if its a ticking sound, ill jump. if it sounds like a can of loose nuts and bolts, ill run the other way... maybe.

Have to give props to the seller for thinking of trying to start the car...who knows how much more damage doing so can do to an already "ILL' engine.

Well.. I have my own reasons for having the car started: 1. After googling my fingers off and calling some mechanics, I'm fairly certain it's not the ims that's failed. Let me explain why: if it fails, one has mere seconds before total motor implosion- this guy drove home several blocks, and then even took the time to maneuver his car in the garage that took several back and forth motions before it sat; all while it's making this noise. I'm guessing it's been on making this awful noises for a solid 15-20 minutes- I just gotta hear it for myself . 10-15 seconds won't hurt it any worse. 2. I've bought two cars so far with the assumption that the engine is toast; but it only ended up the water pump being bad- the nonevidence in my mind is pointing towards this. 3. The car is priced accordingly for a new engine anyway, and I've already sourced one out- I'm fairly certain I'm going home with this one on a flatbed today. 4.Im also thinking (no offense to you porsche guys) that you all are feeding off your own paranoia and have fallen into this ims hysteria, yet there's no statistical knowledge of how many have failed, what MY, what leads to this implosion. Sure, they're expensive engines... Welcome to german engineering. I've literally searched the four corners of YouTube to hear this fabled ims sound and it just doesn't exist. Reading old posts, the OP either has deleted the video (why ?!?!?!) or it ended up being a grab bag of other things. 5. Diagnosis over the phone and a doomsday prognosis has been given. I won't put heavy belief in that either. Hope you guys don't think I'm an idiot for thinking these... To be continued!

If it made it home under it's own power, IE: hasn't jumped timing and bent valves etc, and it is a bad IMSB, starting it could turn an $8,000 rebuild into an $18,000 replacement. Pull the oil filter and cut it apart and look for debris. If it is full of magnetic shavings don't start it. The 99s had dual row bearings it may not have failed completely yet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvLRM...ature=youtu.be This is a bad failure:

$5K car + $5K used motor = win

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Here in the 1st post. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ound-clip.html I also have heard another one in person. It sounded like "pool *****" rhythmically clacking together. VID 00019 20101207 0956 Porsche IMS bearing sound - YouTube

Never look a gift horse in the mouth...

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This was what I was thinking too considering the OP can do his own work. One of the best $10k you'll spend.

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I like this guy. I hope you stick around. Also, I recommend removing the oil filter and cutting it open (unrolling it), like Frank suggested. The car will only lose about 1/2 quart of oil if you do that, and a new filter is $20-30 bucks from most dealers. It's a quick, inexpensive and easy way to see what kind of major issues you may have. If there are flakes of metal, it's probably the IMS bearing, if there are chunks of plastic, it's probably the cam chain guides. Both are a bit of a pain in the *** to do, but are definitely something a capable DIY'er can handle if you have a decent set of tools.

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Sounds like you have very reasonable expectations from dealing with German cars. I think your taking a rational approach to this i.e. not getting wrapped up in the hysteria..keep us posted. Hope its something minor Nice to see another MB enthusiast. The 129's are one of my favorites

Update: So I meet him at 2. He said the battery isnt charged up yet. Pricewise, I guess I have no loss sharing with you, we're at 7k. He put it up for 8, and I told him I'll buy it for 5k without hearing it run, just roll it out of the garage and wait for a flatbed. He claims theres a mechanic in monterey (3-4 hours away) that offered $6500 sight unseen. Im pretty good at sizing people up, and he didnt catch me as the lying type. (again- this is just my gut instict). he didnt give it to the guy because he doesnt like 'flippers', nor people offering him money without seeing the car. Understandable. Anyway, yeah so we're at 7k right now. I just might take the leap... It all depends on how our next encounter plays out. I have a 1998 SL600 with 110k miles and a panoramic roof that im considering swapping this out for. I love the car, its amazing, but I've been with R129s for too long and need a change of pace, plus i made it to the top of the mountain with these cars...I got the biggest baddest one, with the rare top... only thing its short of is the 'sport' package, and thats just an emblem and different bumpers/side skirts, which I prefer mind more... Time to crawl up another model's ladder. Plus like you IMS doomsday theorists, I have my own issues with M120 engines that I pray to the motor gods every morning to be nice for... If there was a child I could sacrifice to guarantee that I would have a peaceful 100k miles, I would throw it into the volcano without flinching. Its not cool that it takes 5 hours to get to the valve cover gaskets and another 5 to put it back. On top of that, my car leaks like the exxon-valdez oil spill on the right bank, so I have to jump back in to reseat the gasket. Plus from the looks of it, the porsche engines look like go-kart motors in comparison... Here is a picture of my car, just with the valve covers off, one with it on, and 3 of the carrera. Edit: wont let me upload my car's pics. damnit.

$7,000.00 is WAY too much for a non-running 996.1 with 170k miles on the ODO. Ebay has running 996.1 and 986 cars selling for under $10,000 with 150k miles on them. Assuming you get the new motor for $5k and do your own work, you end up with $12k car. I would save the money and find a running MK1 for under $15k with 90-120k miles. Here is a running serviced 1999 in my market. With some haggling I am sure you could snag simiar car for $12-13k. http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/4303838115.html

sure, but we're at a 2k difference? ebay, you have to go with pictures alone, and then shipping. basically even if i bought the car for 5k on ebay, put in 600-750 shipping, and then make a couple other adjustments youre at 6k. This one I at least see and its obvious its clean inside and out, and the thing is- im rolling the dice that it ISNT the ims. Plus it was just used as a commuter to and from work 250 miles a day. It's had a somewhat mundane, non-abused life. Like I said, it all depends on how today's meeting goes. Im a fan of projects anyway- half the reason we love cars is because it gives us reason to drink, swear and have bloody knuckles- yet not be arrested because most of the time thats associated with domestic abuse..

Did I read this correctly? A 1999 Porsche with 170,000 miles on the odometer, and its been garaged ten years? That means he put 34,000 a year on it, when running. Wow.

*Months.

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I gotcha now. Yes, if IMS works out in your favor then you got a smoking deal here. And I 100% agree that commuter car with high miles is much preferred to a tracked car with low miles. Good luck on the deal today.

Oh, yeah. Months. Not years. Not even dog years.

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This. A running one would be barely cracking over 10K. There was another example with ~120K on ebay for 12K.

The masochist in me won over. the battery was too dead to hold a charge and jumping it still didnt work. So I figured.... Im a type of guy that goes with my gut instinct. The owner was upfront and told me his opinion that it needed a rebuild- I could appreciate that. It has a stack of service records about 2 inches thick, so in my mind, I figured whatever issues it has had in the past, has been addressed up until this situation, when he just to happened to find out his wife is pregnant- and the flow of cash went to baby hell instead. Worst case I get a rebuild and enjoy the car for about 500 miles before the IMS implodes, in which case I have entered into the 996 cult of fear mongering IMSers. Tomorrow the car will be towed to my other house where I have the space and start the hunt, dissect the oil filter, drop the pan, if all good then move on to the belt and pulleys. If in rebuild/new motor territory, ill entertain options as far as an LS swap or going plain jane with another 3.4. Wish me luck gang! Heres a pic as it sits right now, in the now PO's garage.

Congrats on the purchase. Keep us posted on the engine situation.

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x2. Good luck Vasir and here's hoping you got the better end of the deal.

Well this is certainly an interesting thread! Vasir, can ya keep us posted as this project progresses?

Absolutely. Im well known for taking dodgey risks with cars- my friends and family dont harp on me any longer, and my neighbors pretty much eat popcorn and watch me add a car to the fleet every two months and then purge the 'inventory' to make space for fresh brain busters to mess with. Sometimes I make out, sometimes not so much- on average I lose out more often than not, but if I was in it for the money, I would have been out of the 'business' by now. I rather do this than lose my *** at the casino. You know the saying "whats the best way to become a millionare? Start out as a billionare and buy an airline"? Im that guy on a much much smaller scale- its more of a time suck, or alternative to therapy the way I see it. Hah I'll know in the next two days whats going on with it mechanically I have learned though that the 996 insurance coverage for me is 75% cheaper than on my 600 (WTF?!) - so already im sold into the porsche cult from that alone.

Well man, if you had ***** to wrench on the "vault" motor, you can tackle the 3.4L. I considered getting the S600 W140 as a daily, but the look under the hood discouraged me. That V12 is just monstrous motor.

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The m120 motor is actually an amazing motor- there's a reason they're used in super cars. The problem is the fact you need a shoe horn to get it in the 140/129 bay, and in the event something minor does, you have to disassemble EVERYTHING around the engine to make space. Their fuel economy on the highway is insane. I drive to Newport Beach from Sacramento fairly frequently and I avg 28mpg going 75mph in the SL, and somehow 29mph in the S.

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Get yourself 996 MK1 GT3 engine + tranny + ECU, you should be good to go!

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Hah Maybe too crazy for my pocket book, plus im not sure the californian reich would approve. Id heavily consider an LS swap.