Metal in filter

When I changed my oil this weekend, I found some metal in my oil filter. Some of it was ferrous. I ran it by my indy and his comment was its always scary looking at an oil filter. We discussed retrofitting the IMS. He said I could do it for some peace of mind. He also said since the car wasn't making in rattling noises on cold start that I could continue to monitor for awhile. I have read everything on this forum from your engine is going to grenade to it normal to have some metal in the filter. I have had the car for almost a year and a half and this is the second oil change I've done. The first change was with Mobil 0w40. I have switched to Castrol Syntec Edge 5w40. I drive it about 5-6k miles per year. I don't remember seeing metal when I changed the oil about a year ago. Since then, I have done several DE weekends. I had also read that doing some track time may cause this if the car had not previously been driven hard/ that type of environment before. The car has right at 40K miles on it and is a manual. Thoughts???

Your DE weekenders might have just disturbed some few ferrous deposits in the pan. The ferrous material in this filter appear to be very minimal. At my oil change 2 wks ago, I installed a magnetic plug to intercept some of these in addition to filter checks at the oil change. I wouldn't worry too much if it were me!

Here's a thread that may interest you: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...highlight=quix

Looks minimal to me... If your worried do your next oil change early and look again. If you see the quantity increasing, drop the pan and evaluate, and go from there. But my guess is that you are fine.

Thanks for the input guys. You are making feel a little better except Quix, your post is doing quite opposite. What a terrible experience to go through. Hope you are enjoying the S4! For now I'll continue to monitor and change oil early.

Visible metal particles in a filter is never something you should ignore. It is NOT normal wear. At a minimum, I would pull sump cover and closely inspect the internals. You better pay close attention or you will soon be adding your 996 to the "failure" list.

Well this has really been concerning to me so I decided to bite the bullet and have the IMS, RMS, Clutch done next week prior to my DE weekend. Quoted $2400 OTD. Sounds reasonable vs. engine replacement.

have you done a UOA?

I have not done a UOA.

Ferrous stuff isn't a wear item IIRC

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Two of the very first things I did shortly after I bought my car: * oil and filter change (cut the filter open = was "clean") * send oil to Blackstone Labs for UOA (results = clean bill of health) Helped maintain the joy of owning/driving a 996. P.S. IMS/RMS/AOS lined up when tranny service becomes due (proactive/preventive measures, currently symptom-free).

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That's seems like pretty good price for the work...

my first oil change looked like your filter, second - nothing. Had installed magnetic drain plug at first oil change. Second change it had very light and very fine "dust" on it. Using casterol full synthetic 5W 50. I'm comfortable (he said knocking on wood).

Its too late for that anyway. Sounds like your making the right decision but I would still identify what the metal was from. IMSB, maybe ok until repair. If its cam wear, game over.

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Depends upon how it came to be. The engine could have - almost certainly had -- ferrous and alum. debris in the pan. Hard driving, high g-force cornering coupled with braking and very hot oil for the car's first time at a DE could have a piece of metal debris ingested by the oil pump. There's not much metal in the filter element so the piece of debris didn't have to be large to begin with. Plenty small enough to be inhaled into the oil intake opening if it got to close to the oil intake pulling in oil for an oil pump working hard to supply 90PSI or more at above 5K rpms.

Macster I tend to agree with you. I'm pretty certain that is what has happend. The car is running incredibly well and this is my first oil change post DEs. Then my paranoia sets in and well there goes $2400 that I would have rather spent on my suspension. Better safe than sorry as they say. FWIW most of the metal didn't appear to be ferrous only about 3-4 small pieces. I read somewhere that a coating on the oil could cause it to appear ferrous when it's really not.

slopesider, Don't get me wrong, but this is how my IMS started showing up. Just a little metal in the filter to begin with. I brushed it off as normal or chain tensioner, or whatever. Next oil change, I wasn't so sure. The 3rd oil change, and that was it. No more driving. I change my oil pretty often every 1K or 2 track events. I look at the filter every time. I'd shorten your oil change interval just to double check. If it is clean, then it maybe it's just be normal shedding. If it gets glittery, then it's time to take steps. IMS is ferrous and magnetic. Glitter will appear black on the magnet. Apologize if this isn't the first time you've heard this. Good luck.

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Not sure what you mean about a coating on the oil could cause it to appear to be ferrous. Either the metal is ferrous (or at least attracted to a magnet) or it is not. Even if it is a tiny amount is not something to get all scared about. Sure, caution is the order of the day and you have to do what you feel is right for you. My course of action would to after the oil change run the engine at idle up to temp then remove the oil filter housing and repeat the examination of the oil filter element and oil from the housing. If a magnet (used to have one at the tip of a knurled rod with a spring loaded blade the other end used to start small metal screws into their hole) run over the filter or stirred in the filter housing oil came out with metal stuff clinging to it... well, I'd be worried. But if the magnet came out free of any metal...

Slopeslider, you have too little metallic debris on your oil filter to worry about. I had the same amount, maybe even a little more and spoke to the country service GM. He said our engines shed a little material and that is regarded as normal wear. He said it happened most often during start up. I still cut my filters at each oil change and those tiny bits are there every time. I'd worry for about 2" and move on with my life. You can do all the things suggested by the other contributors if they'd make you feel better. If it affects your sleep, install the Guardian Angel, magnetic drain plug or just take sleeping pills.

OK, ask yourself this. If a PPI revealed these metal bits in the filter and you were the potential buyer, would you still buy the car???? I wouldnt worry about it, I would take action, whatever is appropriate for your abilities. The OP is making the right choice since a 20K engine is at stake and it needs the IMSB serviced anyway. You guys that wont be buying his replacement engine should not be talking him out of addressing the issue.

Thanks for all of the input. Many valid points. Honestly, I felt like the whole IMSB thing was a bit overblown. That said seeing the metal in the filter admittedly got be a bit nervous. I figure I should be doing the IMSB anyway at some point and since I'm going out on the track this coming weekend, I would enjoy it a lot more not worrying about it. It will be interesting to see what shape the current bearing is in. The car goes in first thing tomorrow to start the teardown.

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If I'd picked a reputable shop and they found this in the PPI and they told me it is nothing to worry about then I would have gone ahead and bought the car and not worried about it, I'm not the expert, that is the reason to hire someone competent to do the PPI. There are a ton of "experts" on here, as far as I can tell not many did their own PPI's when they bought their car. I wonder how many people argue about the findings of the PPI that they contracted for. If I had read many of YOUR posts before buying my car and not read anyone else's and not done a lot of other research I probably would not have bought my car. I would have been erroneously led to believe it is an overpriced POS that has ridiculous parts and service costs and at risk of becoming a lawn ornament at any time. In the end I am glad that did not happen, I love my car and believe the parts and service costs are reasonable and/or cheaper than some other cars if you take the time to not just go to the dealer for everything. (Just like most other brands). Sounds like the OP found what he found and has decided to take care of the IMS for his own peace of mind whether or not that is the (or even an) issue.

Slopeslider, please keep us informed of your IMSB change. If the Internet poll is to be believed, there's a 5% chance your bearing is on its way out. Keen to see pictures and comments of your bearing. Ask to keep it as paper weight! It's probably the most talked of bearing in the world.

More like 8.25%. Thats with NO symptoms. He has more of a 50% chance IMSB, 50% cam or lifter destruction.

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Wow... You just never give it a rest. I think there is a 95% chance you have less than 5% of the data needed to draw your conclusion.

Lets all calm down...KK is a zealot, we all know that by reading his posts. He's also able to do all the mechanical work on his car, and the inexpensive IMSB trial he is involved with is worthy of our collective attention. Still waiting on that parts list, but fairly well documented in another thread. The OP made an informed decision and based on what his gut told him to do. It will be interesting to hear if his OEM bearing is intact and in good shape. However, that may lead to another conclusion...

Well stopped by the shop this afternoon and the trany was out and you could definitely see a leak from the IMSB. Looks like I made the right call. To my chagrin while the car was up on the rack noticed my front right inside of my tire is shredded. Looks like i'm tire shopping today also. Any recommendations mixed street / track and about 6-8 DEs a year? The Michelin Pilot Sport Cups are sweet but not the $1400 price tag. Tire Rack recommended the Dunlap Derrzza Z2s. A little bit better on the cost at $1036.

What no pics? Please make sure they save the bearing for examination. Please post some pics. Some of us really enjoy folowing the repair work as its done.

I meant to take pics and got distracted when i realized I would be buying new tires also. Went with the Dunlap Direzza Z2s.

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I had the same thing a month ago when I received the call stating I flunked the tech inspection due to inner blocks being corded! :-/ Put on two new rears (Toyo Proxes 315x19" for $750, same as what was there before). I had them road force balance all 4 wheels, and did a full 4 wheel alignment (mild aggressive setting), I would recommend the same for you SS.

slopesider, Sometimes it's better to be good than lucky! If you go the LN way w/ your wrench, they want the old bearing sent back to them for warranty. I can see why they want to see the state of the bearing. But since I am paying to play, I wanted to see the little bastard myself, so I took it apart. Get it fixed and go back to the track where these things belong.

Another destroyed dual row IMSB? There goes another DR is better theory. Details please?

Mine is a single row, sorry now pics yet. Turnouted the seal was leaking but the bearing appeared to still be pretty stable (not much play). New L&N bearing and clutch installed this am. The RMS looked good and was replaced about 1 1/2 years ago so that was left as is. To me it's worth it for the POM. My indy believes the metal was from the chain tensioners. New rubber on all four corners. Picked-up my Dunlap Direzza Z2's from Tire rack this am and dropped them off with my indy. Man these are some aggressive tires. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....t&autoModClar= All and all an expensive week! But it certainly could have been worse .

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I'm going to change my oil myself pretty soon, so I want to check my oil filter for metal bits as well. First, what part of the filter do you cut open? Do you cut away the top and bottom plastic pieces and then cut open the two paper elements? Second, looking at your photo, I don't see anything metallic. Where are you seeing the ferrous pieces and where are they supposed to be coptured?

I was referring to the pics above my post. Supposedly the DR are not as prone to failure as a SR. It may be all BS. Your SR was doomed to fail from build date.

If you look closely you can see aluminum colored flecks of metal. To examine you filter cut the filter open with a box cutter and the peel off the filter spine. Stretch it out and will be able to see in the pleats. Best examined in direct sun light. If you have metal it will sparkle in the sun light. You will also want to run a magnet over any metal you find.

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Thanks. I'm also going to send my oil out for analysis in case I miss anything with my visual inspection.

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Can anyone enlighten me as to how much an RMS replacement typically costs? Also, is there an improved Porsche version of the RMS or do you go aftermarket?

Read this whole thread front to back for your answers. Then search here for IMSB or LM ENGINEERING.

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Err ... I was inquiring about RMS, not IMS.

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Long Islander the RMS was replaced in my car prior to buying and IIRC believe the bill was in the $800 range.

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Thanks.

The rear main seal is a $40 part.

Or less! I bought 2!

Got the car back today. Oil pan was as clean as a whistle, no metal. That is good news! My original assumption was probably correct that I stirred some stuff up out on the track. Now I shouldn't have to worry about the IMSB for a long time and I can enjoy driving her as she was meant to be driven. My Porsche has had a good first half of the year: B&M shift kit, Fabspeed Max Comp CF intake, Classic 9 leather center console, Ash tray delete, frunk and engine compartment struts, Ipad mini, IMSB, Clutch, rear wheels straightened and Dunlap Direxzza ZIIs all the way around. My wallet on the other hand not so much.

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You see KrazyK, it was not all doom and gloom as you like to quick-draw-McGraw at times. Have more faith in Ferdinand Porsche's engineers!

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Not surprising (to me, at least), but great news! How many miles were on the current clutch anyway?

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Only 40k still was in pretty good shape. Kinda Silly not to do it while the tranny was out.

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Wait, one bearing photo is the evidence required to indict all dual-row bearings? Dude, you just never quit. Well, I suppose I admire your tenacity. HOWEVER... I saw metallic flakes similar to OP's when I did my first oil change on my first M96 (in my Boxster) and proceeded to see them sometimes, sometimes not, over the next 50,000 miles. Thus, I disagree that the presence of said flakes increases your IMSB disaster odds from 5% to 95%.

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As I recall from reading the settlement docs, the dual-row failure rate was alleged by Porsche to be less than one percent. I am quoting my memory, so this "statistic" is no more reliable than any of the others getting tossed out here...

The 996 is in my mind, the deal of the century, IMS or no IMS problem. For $25K+ (I wish I had waited to pay this little), this is a lot of car for those that like to drive hard, which usually means taking it to the track. So one needs to be vigilant. The IMS is not palpable like a wheel bearing. And the failure window is relatively small. I posted pics to illustrate the level of failure vs. not feeling a problem w/ the car in any way, on the street or the track. The only reason I caught it is I put in the little extra effort to change frequently and look for issues each time. I agree w/ Schnell of people getting the wrong idea, metal does not equal IMS. But it should raise the defcon level temporarily. The OP had a leaky IMS seal and the bearing is probably just fine (minor point: hard to tell if a bearing if fine by looking at the outside and spinning it), and this is borne out by the statistics. Something bad is going to break sometime on all cars. And my car is no exception. After 35,000 track miles of living between 4500 and 7000 RPM, 1 type 2 overrev, hundreds of type 1, I know it is inevitable. But I hope the irony is not lost. Apologize for sounding so preachy. But I am defensive about these cars I guess.

To the OP, glad you got it fixed and your right. Should be good for a long time. You can now ENJOY the car without the worry of the bearing issue. Congrats on making a well informed decision!

Slopeslider, What did the pulled IMSB look and feel like? Single or dual row?

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+1, I like your thinking.

[QUOTE][Slopeslider, What did the pulled IMSB look and feel like? Single or dual row?QUOTE] It was a single row. The seal was failing and leaking. Took it to the track this weekend and ran flawlessly.