79 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
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YOUR RESEARCHBlown Engine 2002 3.6
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Reported cause
Here we never attempt to start a car that had any symptoms like this until after we quantify where the issue is concentrated.
Leading evidence: 'concentrated' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'concentrated' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check cams' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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After the cam timing is checked pull the sump plate, its the window to the soul of the engine.
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Suggestion
Can you check the sensor, remove the camshaft plugs to check all timings are correct while hand cranking the engine a couple of revolutions?
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Suggestion
When the customer receives the car back, it is 100% ready for daily driving with no special care or attention and we have already given it the first service and a 28 point check thats fully documented.
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Suggestion
When the customer receives the car back, it is 100% ready for daily driving with no special care or attention and we have already given it the first service and a 28 point check thats fully documented.
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79 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Generation: 20261027T061840Z · outcome-qualification-6. Deterministic extraction; no AI model inference. How we use sources
you're planning to buy? or sell?
EDIT: looks like this is your car. My vote goes to a new engine from JR if the wallet will allow and....IF YOU REALLY, REALLY LIKE TO KEEP THIS CAR.
Ouch! Just driving 45hp.
Quite a few options:
1) new 3.6,
2) upgrade to a 3.8 (see Jake)
3) LS1
4) Electric
5) sell as is
6) sell for parts.
You have done so much I would look at 1 or 2 if you have the cash flow.
[quote=Chris996;10455717]
Sounds classic. Sounds like the story behind the 17 others it will join in our storage area if you decide to ship it down for resurrection. We consider Virginia "local" in regard to shipping the car down as most of the cars we have here now are from the west coast.
As crazy as it may sound, the engine may not be "blown" and we may be able to repair it, even if that means a complete disassembly. At our level such a project is not complicated.
Or it looks like a nice, well kept car (Its never the nasty, abused daily thrashed cars that experience engine failures) and my wife has been looking for a cab 996. So either we can repair the engine, reconstruct the engine, or offer you a fair cash price for the car.
Call the office tomorrow and speak to Dean at [phone removed] extension 627. If I am available, I have no problem speaking at an advanced technical level as well. I should be in the office until noon tomorrow, when I head downstairs to the lab for the remainder of the day.
We have a truck heading to the shop from the northeast this week, if he has space remaining he'll be passing right through your neighborhood, more than likely.
I agree that pulling codes is a good initial action; however the majority of full engine failures that find their way here never threw a CEL and have zero fault codes stored.
The fact that he did experience a CEL is troubling as it screams that the car was probably attempted to be restarted after the initial failure (creating more damage that we refer to as "being driven to death") or that the failure wasn't instantaneous; though its symptoms may appear to suggest that it was.
Sorry to hear the engine trouble. Looks like the best scenario is the bank 1 camshaft sensor (p1341) went kaput. I think if the IMSB went, the engine probably won't have time to flag error codes.
Can you check the sensor, remove the camshaft plugs to check all timings are correct while hand cranking the engine a couple of revolutions? I think there's still hope. Can you describe the clanking sound more and whether you tried to restart the engine (not recommended at this point). If cam timing checks out and no interference is felt, probably worth to replace the sensor with a new one and try to start it?
Shop will be checking cams on Monday . First impression was not good by shop. When I pulled over the rpm were very low making a lot of clunk clunk clunk noise.
The clunking noise may be from the dual mass flywheel when the engine was heavily misfiring. Good luck and let us know. It's a beautiful car you have there.
I hope it wasn't driven. If so, the chances of any repair are decreased by thousands of percent. People try so hard to avoid a 200 dollar tow bill that they spend 20K to drive it to the shop.
There's a few hundred things that could have happened, process of elimination is the only way to diagnose.
After the cam timing is checked pull the sump plate, its the window to the soul of the engine. Most all the answers can be found after its removed.
FYI- If there's a chance it may come to us don't allow anyone to disassemble it, else it'll have to be reassembled 100% before it is accepted.
I costed to the side of the road . Tried to restart but would not fire up. Flat bed to shop. Driver dropped off at wrong shop. Had to reload an take to p-shop. By the time there the porsche mechanic was gone for the day. Shop manager said he tried to start and it didn't sound good, may need new engine.
Wow. Not what I'd expect from a shop that's familiar with engine failures. Here we never attempt to start a car that had any symptoms like this until after we quantify where the issue is concentrated. If engines end with a mechanical sound, starting it up is just going to kill any light at the end of the tunnel.
As Jake mentioned, if the shop that has the car now is going to start any tear down to diagnose the problem and then you decide to send it to Jake, or elsewhere, for whatever reason; make sure the shop re-assembles the engine. Any indi hates when they are given hand me down work because the previous mechanic couldn't finish what was started.
It might be worthwhile to ask the tech plenty of questions on the initial tear down and would be ideal to get pics as work progresses; i.e., timing chains in place, camshafts, valves, sprockets, pistons, etc....
This car is such a nice clean 996 I vote to save it. Do as Jake said, pull the sump plate.
Solutions:
1. If the engine can be repaired, start reading and do it yourself.
2. If the engine can not be repaired, there are many low mileage 3.6's from salvage cars. Fix the common issues before you install one.
3. Sell the car to me and I will do it.
Alternate and last resort:
1. Pay Jake many $$$$ for one of his custom builds.
2. LSx swap.
Chris, sorry to hear of your misfortune. Very nicely kept 996 by the way. I had a similiar issue with my car a couple years back. I elected to rebore and upgrade to LN 3.8 opposed to buying a used motor with unknown health and service intervals. PM me for details if interested.
Now I maybe wrong and I hope I am because this post is defo gonna upset someone if I am not. The car doesn't look anything like a stock car. It looks like it has had radical mods done to it. My guess is that the engine has had so much unwanted things added to it in an effort to make it react meaner, sound louder and the Porsche designed engine kicked up about it and simply gave up the ghost. I love the outside appearance of the car and can accept the mods I see but its the mods like cats and cross over pipes which effect the smooth running of the car that worry me. What was added to the actual stock engine? I also see a pool of something on the floor at the front end of one of the photos. A radiator leak maybe. That's only a little part of the problem in MHO. These cars are better left as designed but I may as well talk to the wall. And before anyone chips in saying I have other issues in my life. No I simply speak my honest thoughts on this matter. These engines don't BLOW UP for no good reason what so ever. They are coaxed into blowing up by the owners. Wheres that brick wall again
Hey , thanks for all the advice.... will be checking with the shop today. I have the car at RMS Services in Chantilly VA.
http://www.rmsservicesva.com/
Before anyone goes up in the air about my recent post, This maybe worth a read to all you Engine additive modders.
http://pedrosgarage.com/Site_5/The_DME.html
Hey, Hurdi's back!
Actually I agree with some of that about the owners blowing their engines (man, that sounds dirty). Epecially the guys who track a stock M96 then complain when it craters from the dreaded oil starvation issue. We all know the "other" M96 issues.
Talked with shop:
They want to do a compression test and pull lifter covers to see if the heads are ok. All plugs look good. If heads are good will do rebuild, considering rebuild by "Intersport", Mclean VA. Engine never started after it stalled.
I recommend much caution regarding either a salvage engine or a rebuild by anyone other than a real expert on these motors.
Your engine shouldn't be cranked over, let alone started. And economy measures don't work out very well with the M96 series. Whether the engine can be rebuilt or upgraded, disassembly for a full inspection is necessary. There are too many places inside for pieces of debris to hide and later (or earlier) be released into a partially explored motor after sufficient-appearing repairs to make it run.
Two years ago I had Jake Raby build a Performer 3.6 for my 2000 C2 for the track, and it is an awesome motor. Regarding your situation, I recently bought an '05 997 from Jake that initially came to his shop as a virtual rolling chassis because it was believed to have experienced a catastrophic IMS failure.
It fortunately hadn�t, but it was a close call. Jake was able to repair and upgrade the engine due to the lack of collateral damage, but that discovery only came with complete disassembly and inspection. The engine is back in the car and essentially stock except for a few reliability items like a 3-row LN bearing, billet oil pump shaft, etc.
As I found out, an essentially stock refreshing of an otherwise sound engine is a fraction of the cost of a new engine--if it is performed by an expert. Otherwise, I personally would walk away.
Given the expense, no one should have to go through this twice with the same engine. Be wary. I�d be making a call to Cleveland, GA before making any major investment in that engine.
I am curious to hear the details as well, blown engine doesn't mean much.
As far as you don't have a hole in the engine case, it is usually rebuildable...hopefully.
If not... time for LS1 conversion ! That is certainly what I'd do.
I am curious what you think of Intersport. I am also in the area. Your car is very nice and worthly of repairing.
My 2002 C4 now has a 2008 M96 motor. Seems like the factory replacement prices were half four years ago.
This will be my last post on Rennlist.com. I have been a member since 2006 when I go my first 911. The 2002 engine needs rebuilt. Ended up selling to Jake Raby, I am sure he will have here up in running in no time. Tried to back out of the deal before Jake came and picked her up, I was considering having the Flat6 3.8 upgrade, but he wouldn't let me back out off the deal. Sorry Jake. Maybe I'll buy it back someday, a lot of emotional attachement to her. Hopefully Jake will post what went wrong with the engine.
Well its been great owning the 911, and loved all the work I put into it. But I would say this is it for me and porsche, until retirement. Best of luck you all its been a great forum.
Chris
Master-Blaster?
Wow, what a sad ending to a crappy story. At least Jake will repair the car rather than see it scrapped or parted out. What a nice clean example of a 996. Maybe the 996 theme song should be "Another One Bites The Dust" by Queen.
I have entertained the thought of chartering space on a ocean freight liner to ship all our 996's to sell overseas before word spreads there. I can certainly feel where the OP is coming from on his decision.
Yeah...these cars are crap. Absolute crap. I have never heard of cars over a decade old grenading. Just on Rennlist alone this year there must be, my gosh, at least 3 or 4. They are all doomed. Doomed I say. DOOMED!!!
Sorry for that, but my 3-day weekend is starting 2 days early. Sorry to hear the OP's troubles. Certainly is bad luck. Would like to hear exactly how Jake wouldn't "let you out of the deal". That would be good reading.
Bloody Mary anyone?
My wire transfer was already in his account; and the shipper was lined up with a deposit paid before Chris started reconsidering. We had made a deal and it had been sealed; Chris kept his word and I appreciated that; because today too many people simply will not do that.
Anyway the car is here now and I have diagnosed it as a worst case, just as Chris' shop had concluded as well. I have a new version of my 3.7 big bore (with IMS Solution installed) going together for the car and I am sure that Beth will appreciate the 8,000 RPM rev range of the combination while her and Ava (my 18 month old) rocket through traffic each morning. The combination makes 350 WHP so it should be a lot of fun.
When the car arrived I queried the ECU with some new toys and found some enlightening information that I saved. The car is very nice and like most that we see here that are failed, it has low mileage and has been well maintained.
Beth drives a Cayenne Turbo daily, but I need to strip that one off the road to install my 5.3L big bore engine for some more test miles, so now she can drive this car instead of my aircooled 911 :-)
We haven't turned the boost up on such a large Cayenne based engine as of yet, so if it fails in testing its not a big deal, since Beth has this car to drive now. Chances are it won't go perfectly smooth considering how far I have put this one on the ragged edge.
When I tear into the failed engine I'll post some pics to my facebook page, like we always do during post-mortem operations.
Exactly... Then so would those who are always looking for the formulas to be our next competitor.
This 3.7 doesn't use very many Porsche components at all... Billet crank, rods, etc, etc, etc. The only Porsche parts it really retains are gaskets, seals and timing chain guide/ wear rails. Otherwise its all FSI & LN Engineering generation 4 components.
Hell, it uses a Chevrolet rod bearing set and Ford mains! Thats how it works.
Jake, you are a legend and your motors are the best. Yet prices are also set to reflect that.
I think it is time to go to shark tank and ask for a mil $ to extend your operations and then drop your rebuild prices 50%. it would probably pay off quite fast by a bigger volume.
we exchanged emails, I still think of an option to order a stage3 motor from you but, well, time will tell. it is a lot of $ to consider into an old platform, maybe simpler to order new 991 gt3 is it will show itself well.
Still a presence of people like you on this site makes it invaluable so please don`t go anywhere.
First, a correction: We don't offer "rebuilt engines". Our engine is nothing like a rebuild, because we address problems instead of just putting it all back together again; rebuild is a really dirty, non precision term. Our engine is a precision piece that incorporates all of our developments to "reconstruct" it, and we install that turnkey engine into the vehicle and I personally test and break the engine in over a 200 mile period. When the customer receives the car back, it is 100% ready for daily driving with no special care or attention and we have already given it the first service and a 28 point check thats fully documented.
To me this isn't as much a business as it is a way of life. I could triple or quadruple the size of the business without needing any "shark" to finance it; I could do it out of my pocket. I do business the old fashioned way and won't ever bring someone else into the mix, because I founded this place and it is mine. That means more than any dollar amount.
In the engine business "volume" is defined by compromise. Here we have no clocks; we don't care how long something takes and one pair of hands, coupled to one mind carries out every process on every engine and vehicle completely. I also take great pride in every project, having direct communication with the buyer from start to finish, which is necessary at this level to maintain a reputation.
I am the happiest I have ever been right now, because I get to "play all day" (as my wife calls it) and feed my family while financing my hobbies, too. I have no desire to build the business into anything larger than it is now, because I don't want the headaches associated with having to deal with every person who comes our way, or having to deal with mass numbers of employees. Here we are all like a family and have all known each other for years, so its a great atmosphere thats conducive to enthusiastic employees and projects. This place is not a "regular grind" where people hate to be. I look forward to every day at my shop, because I have never "worked" a day in my life; the reason we are good is because its not work to us. This has been my goal since the age of 13 when I started all this craziness with old aircooled Porsches and VWs and I am not about to waste it by doing things like everyone else does, because life isn't about building the most, its about building the best and moreover its about LOVING IT!
Remember, we are not engine producers primarily; we are developers first and foremost who just happen to apply those developments to a handful of engines per year. We develop products, "fixes" and procedures as a primary objective; and thats why its easy not to get bored with doing the same old thing everyday, over and over again.
You can buy a new Porsche, then send that to me, like the owner of the Cayman R downstairs that has 4,400 miles on it and has come here for a big bore Raby engine at 4.2 liters, based on the DFI platform. We have already moved into the DFI platform and are making more power than the factory and more displacement.
Start selling them??? Hold on fellas, I already have sold them.... But I stopped. Why? Because DIYr's make their problem my problem when they assume the same title that I do when completing their engine. The years when I did that were lucrative, but I was disgusted and had to field complaints, which is something that I NEVER have to deal with.
When something becomes a pain in the ***, or when someone complains, or we don't like something, I simply stop doing it. Because I don't have to and if I am not happy, this isn't fun and that means it almost becomes a job, which is something I won't accept. There are a TON of parts that we could sell individually, but its not even worth doing it and now we have ceased all product sales outside of engines and our specialized procedures because we just hate to deal with the modern, off the street human that believes the vendor owes them something for nothing. Our engine purchasers son't think that way, and if I sense they do, I tactfully and professionally direct them to my competitor- so they can sue him. Its a great flanking maneuver.
The only way to get what we do is to buy it straight from the source. Trust that it will never be compromised "to increase volume". Volume kills, just ask all of those who think they are our competitor and effectively lose their reputations inside of a year.
It takes as long as it takes, costs as much as it costs and is only done my way. Every time.
That said, I am stepping out of my office to walk 50 yards to catch me a nice fat bass this afternoon, and I bet the owners of those "volume shops" can't do that.
^^Amen to all of that^^
Jake, I'm quietly stashing away funds so you can upgrade my 87's 3.2 someday.
Took my 99 out yesterday for a blast thru the countryside and that Flat6 Stage 2 3.6 was a-screamin!
Eddie, I am building a 3.5 Nickies engine for my '88 Carrera now, I'll build you the same combo if you'd like :-)
Didn't get to go fishing, all my damn worms died and my fish are too smart to bite anything artificial. Must be something in the water :-)
Walkers cars ugliness is only exceeded by his personal appearance. He might be regarded by some as some kind of great Porsche builder but all the cars Ive seen look like crap and are nothing special. Just old track cars and such.
Tighter, Edgier, Faster, Quicker.
Nice not being a CAB.
Steering is tighter, more responsive.
370z a bit heavier in the front. Getting use to.
P-car is less aggressive driving. 370Z has a very aggressive feel.
P-car transmission is better but getting used to the 370z's.
370z grips the road better, no over steering.
Very fun to drive. SPG: Smiles Per Gallon
The Nissan is a very nice car but its probably not fair to compare it to a much older higher mileage sports car. Comparing my Jeep JK Rubicon to my brothers 99 TJ would be quite lopsided as well.
Compare the same year xxxZ to the same year 996 and the Porsche would win but the Nissan probably wouldn't blow the engine up during the comparison trials.
Either way, nice Nissan. Sorry you got screwed by another defective 996.
