63 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHAll IMS Engines will fail?
Reported or suspected cause
overblown hype" camp
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Identified cause
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Reported fixes
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Reported cause
I was firmly in the "The IMS issue is overblown hype" camp from day one.
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Suggestion
Of the Porsches that we have on site now with their engines filling our build boards on 2-3 of them are actually "worth" more than the owner is spending on the engine.
Leading evidence: 'overblown hype" camp' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'overblown hype" camp' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Fill build boards' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Replace bearing and it felt, looked and sounded normal
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Reported fixes
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Unsuccessful attempts
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Mine had 200K miles when I replaced the bearing and it felt, looked and sounded normal.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
As a matter of fact, never saw the two words used together, period.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Suggestion
Of the Porsches that we have on site now with their engines filling our build boards on 2-3 of them are actually "worth" more than the owner is spending on the engine.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Suggestion
Meaning it doesn't make economic sense to repair the car - the cost of the repair/replacement exceeds the value of the car.
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
Fill build boards
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Reported fixes
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Unsuccessful attempts
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Discussions
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Discussions that contain suggestions
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0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
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Suggestion
Of the Porsches that we have on site now with their engines filling our build boards on 2-3 of them are actually "worth" more than the owner is spending on the engine.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
True that re-purposing lights is not that uncommon; however, replacing the iconic round light from a Corvette with one a new shape from a Camero pushed many over the edge.
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Suggestion
And while I realize there is a tremendous knowledge base on this forum, many of the "expert" opinions on the forum run contrary to other Porsche experts, including those repeatedly printed in the tech section of Panorama magazine.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
63 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
0 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Generation: 20261026T120458Z · outcome-qualification-6. Deterministic extraction; no AI model inference. How we use sources
Joel Reiser of Panorama magazine says, "� believe every one of them will fail" Can we put together a survey of high milage Porches, with IMS engines, to prove him wrong?
All 911s had IMS 1965 - 2008. Or are you only concentrating on water cooled with the ball bearing on one end?
They will all fail at some point. One could speculate that by 400,000 miles it will be extremely rare to have one without a failure of some sort on any 911 engine, air or water cooled.
Joel Reiser is very knowledgeable about 996's. Considering the lead time that Pano has, look at the article on Daytona, he may not have had the info on the lawsuit that has since been revealed. Would I run out and install an IMS if I had a "good" S/N ? No.....and that is what my plan is. 77,000 miles on the 2001 and taking it to the Glen soon for a DE.
Yes, all things mechanical eventually need maintenance, replacement, or repair. There are many high mileage 911's still on the road and the engine has never been apart.
My .02 cents!
The only thing guaranteed with anything mechanical is that it will wear out and will fail if driven long enough. The day an engine starts failing is the day that its first fired up.
I don't believe the IMS hype. EVERY car has something that they're known for that could have been better thought out from the factory.
When I did my clutch at 100k miles I swapped out my bearing for the LNE version since I was in there anyway and my original bearing was good as new when it was opened up and inspected.
You want a picture of my odometer readings? They're both way over 40k though, are you sure you can handle that? I don't want to shift your paradigm without a clutch!
Darrick, this may be true but its just pot luck. At 57K miles, my bearing looked and felt great but the seals had oviously failed. Had the seals not let in enough engine oil to lube the bearing, I would have been one of the unlucky ones with a destroyed engine.
That's just crazy talk as you need to replace your IMSB before a 300 mile road trip just to be safe!! Well according to Krazy K anyway - I did 500 kms this weekend just for fun on an original single row bearing -- oh the horror!!
Yep - I did about a 3400 mile round trip in the C2 about 5 years ago, it was a blast and I still have many pleasant memories about the drive. Took the C4S on about an 1100 mile round trip shortly after I got it, good trip but not as long as with the C2 and not as exciting. 14,000 miles after the C4S trip and I've got a new Porsche motor - breaking it in and trying to convince the wife to join me for a coast to coast jaunt by car later this summer.
+1 here! Recently replaced the clutch in my 2000 C2 Cab @65k, and did the LNE IMS upgrade while I was in there as a normal preventative maitenance item. ALL aspects of my original IMS looked/functioned great! Just as an FYI, mine is a daily driver and spiritedly driven regularly when conditions permit.
KK, I appreciate/respect the fact that you do a lot of DIY work on your car, but you have to realize that these failures that you are so paranoid about often happen to people such as yourself who have said previously that you only take your car out for 15min drives...on occasion. These/any car needs to keep the moving parts moving, or you risk major failures...more so with our 996's! You don't have to drive it like you stole it as some would encourage here, but take her for a spirited drive on a regular basis! She will thank you for it and reward you with a great deal of pleasure in the process!
My latest failure email:
"I have had a engine failure from an IMS failure in my 2002 Porsche. I would like to schedule a time to speak with you regarding my problem. The car has 11,500 miles on it and looks like it just came out of the showroom. I bought the car, drove for 1500 Miles in 30 days and lost the engine. Please identify a time for me to call to discuss.
Thank you,
George"
As far as what Joel stated, well the way people react to things these days is why you'll never see me writing articles. Heck, seeing these types of comments makes me wonder why I should even finish my book.
Jake, what would you say the ratio is of cars that have come into your shop with failed bearings over the years that have less than, say, 40k miles to those that are "high" mileage cars with 80k+ miles on them?
This is another of those questions that will just lead to other comments and I'd end up much like Joel Reiser has in this thread.
There was a time when you could say the sky was blue and people didn't hate you for it; the modern human hates to be told that the sky is anything other than a huge rainbow with glitter on top of it.
I have avoided the IMS failure topic completely in my book, just because of this. I go over how to perform an IMSB retrofit using the conventional components and how to install the IMS Solution, but I don't even state why the bearing should be replaced.
I see no reason to have any fight about it. it is very simple engineering issue - a life expectation of a bearing partially submerged into hot oil. depending of level of vibrations and imperfections of entire IMS assembly it is quite obvious that time to failure is difficult to predict but it is obvious that a probability of a failure for a bearing in such conditions is hundreds times higher than for a bearing that is working in normal expected conditions. what people may or may not think about it - who cares.
still if there is such a statistic it would be interesting to hear about it, in my case I would really want to know what happens to newest generation of 06-08 cars now with newer bearing, is a failure rate there really goes along with mileage or repeats pattern of early 996 cars?
I agree that every car has its Achilles heals, however not every car has a bearing that may grenade with little or no notice, taking with it the entire motor, at a replacement cost approaching $20k. Maybe the probability of failure is not high, but it has to weighed against the consequences, which certainly are. For the naysayers, I would argue that Porsche's response to the class action suit speaks for itself. Car companies don't just give away extended warranties without a reason. And while I realize there is a tremendous knowledge base on this forum, many of the "expert" opinions on the forum run contrary to other Porsche experts, including those repeatedly printed in the tech section of Panorama magazine. Just read the May 2013 issue for an eye opener.
The IMS bearing is now so cheap and easy to replace, there is NO reason not to replace it as a regular or preventative maintenance item. In other words, I would trust what Jake says over the BS rhetoric.
Wonder why Porsche went to the effort (expense) of re-engineering the bearing twice and then ultimately eliminated it from the new engines? Perhaps it was just the endless pursuit of perfecting the already perfect? The accounting dept @ VAG loves that stuff.
You really ARE Capt. Obvious
The reason yours was perfect is the same reason my 40k mile 3.6 bearing was perfect. 80+% of them are perfect.
Fixed that for you, and that is exactly my point.
The engines in these cars are not a ticking time bomb like so many have been lead to believe. The IMS bearing is a known weak point of the engine that owners of these cars should be aware of--and consider addressing at some point--but they shouldn't shudder in fear every time they start their car because of it.
Go to
any
enthusiast forum for
any
marque and you'll find countless ticking time-bomb, gloom-and-doom, engineering-screwed-the-pooch-and-corporate-is-covering-it-up stories...
Ford, Honda, BMW, Audi, VW, Mercedes, you name it... There is absolutely nothing unique about a vehicle having a known issue that has the potential for major annoyance or expense.
For that matter, look at
any
generation 911 and you'll find 'engineering deficiencies' that create the potential for very large repair bills.
In the overall scope of things, having an engine with a known weak spot that can be preventatively addressed for minimal incremental cost every 50K miles isn't a big deal in my view of the performance car world.
If the cost of the repair from an IMS failure was not so painful the issue would not receive nearly the press (or cause all these arguments). No matter the actual % of failure, the resulting damage for those afflicted is terrible and can leave a car financially unrepairable. One moment you are the proud owner of a $25K sports car, the next you are selling a rolling chassis for $4,000. And that simple fact separates this problem from most of the 'known issues' in other Porsches and other marques. It most likely won't happen to you, but if it does the word catastrophe directly applies.
I double love my car - and sleep soundly at night with my LN Engineering IMS bearing.
All of the below issues are common to these cars and are many thousands of dollars to fix should they occur. EVERY car has something that could go wrong at any given time and cause a lot of expensive damage, the 996 is not unique in this.
B5 Audi S4 - Turbos
B6/B7 Audi S4 - Timing chain tensioners
Ford F-series with 6.0 Powerstroke - EGR valves/head gaskets/stretched head bolts
Dodge trucks - Transmissions
E36 BMW M3 - VANOS units, rear subframe mounts tearing out of chassis, "money shifts"
E46 BMW M3 - Same as above
Chevrolet Corvette (all years) - Permanent mullet syndrome
Any car with a timing belt - Unexplained belt snapping
I believe this has been scientifically proven to happen only with the C3 to C6 models. In fact, a late model C1 (1961-1962) not only permanently eliminates any trace of mullet syndrome, it frequently causes a severe, often permanent case of "car envy" among anyone who ever beholds one in person. The new C7 has similar affect, unless viewed from the rear, in which case it causes an immediate, sometimes violent verbal query from nearly all asking why they would use Camero tail lights on an otherwise beautiful car, and is often accompanied by a commitment to wait until that is fixed before purchasing one.
My info is one reason for the intermediate shaft was to be able to spread the wear of the sprockets/chain rollers out more.
Relatively prime numbers are used for the number of crankshaft and IMS sprockets so (IIRC) the same roller makes contact with the same sprocket tooth every 9th revolution.
With new DFI engines then the goal, one of the goals, was to offer a simpler engine. The sprocket/chain wear issue I guess was found to be a non-issue and the IMS could be done away with. Fewer parts. Less chain/sprocket/rail contact. Quieter engine. Less expensive to make. Fewer parts to catalog/stock. Etc.
True that re-purposing lights is not that uncommon; however, replacing the iconic round light from a Corvette with one a new shape from a Camero pushed many over the edge. While I think it was an incredibly bad decision given the iconic nature of the round light, I would still love to have a new C7 convertible in my garage.
But before we upset anyone, perhaps we should stay focused on P-cars. ;-)
One of the few cars I considered instead of my 996 was a C5 Z06... Great car, but in the end I decided I had too few gold chains and too much hair to own one.
Meaning it doesn't make economic sense to repair the car - the cost of the repair/replacement exceeds the value of the car. Unless you have a bottomless pit for a wallet and money is no object... Although I think you knew that : )
I never heard anyone describe that with financially unrepairable. As a matter of fact, never saw the two words used together, period. Was this your invention?
Monsieur Obvious, your list only serves to prove my point. None of those problems renders the car essentially a total loss. They can be fixed. Expensive to be sure, but a catastrophe? No.
So much hyperbole, so few miles...
PS: If anybody has a nice 'rolling chassis' 996 with an IMS failure they want to sell for $4K, send them my way. I'd buy them at that price all day long.
No its not.
My beautiful 1989 honda civic si sustained a catastrophic engine failure due to a blown bearing on the timing belt tensioner. Sold it for $200 because it had a nice alpine cd player.
So .... back to the whole thing with cars that have timing belts being potential ticking time bombs. Seems that preventative maintenance helps reduce the possibility. Well, same thing with a bearing replacement every 100k km.
I was firmly in the "The IMS issue is overblown hype" camp from day one. I think the number of failures are very low and of those, I think many are incorrectly diagnosed as IMS failures. However...when I did my clutch 2 months ago, I did the LNE Retrofit. In light of the recent Class Action Suit, I thought this would at a minimum help my resale value since more buyers are likely to become aware of the IMS issue.
I must confess that the little nagging paranoia, OCD checking for leaks and worrying about every little noise and vibration...that I never had...has gone away.
That alone is worth extra $1K.
The people that truly love these cars spend the required money for engines more frequently than you'd think. Of the Porsches that we have on site now with their engines filling our build boards on 2-3 of them are actually "worth" more than the owner is spending on the engine. Oddly enough those are the guys who have done the work electively before they experienced any symptoms or a failure. These are generally the 06-08 cars, but we have many 99 and other early models populating those build boards, too. Every one of them (early cars) is worth less than the engine thats going into them, and you'll never see one of them for sale.
These vehicles are very robust and some people believe that you can't buy a new car thats built as well for the same money that our engine costs. Thats usually why people go the reconstructed engine route, because they want to keep the car for a long, long time.
When these cars lose their engines they become "bankrupt cars" instantly. A Porsche with a broken heart isn't very valuable.
Actually any car with a broken engine isn't worth anything. Since the early 996s are getting cheap and the engines are very expensive, makes this some exciting times for the DIYer gearheads.
You guys know some here hate logic. Once again some very good posts about the 996. It has become a DIY'ers car and the non-mechanic really has no business owning one, unless of course he has the "bottomless wallet" to compliment the "bottomless money pit" 996. Everytime I raise mine I find something else I should replace and its one of the lower mileage MKII versions.
Can't argue with that - you do it because you have a passion for the car. Doesn't make it a smart move financially but if I loved the car enough I would do it too.
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