2003 Mustang SVT: talk me out of it and into C4S

OK, this isn't as psychotic as it may appear but I'm definitely in need of some sleep. For the past 4-1/2 years my daily driver has been a Boxster. I'm tired of the cabriolet, it's too hot to use the cabrio 9 months of the year, and I want a 2+2. I was about to order a 996 C4S but wanted to be open minded and try other cars. My hesitation with the 996 is that it doesn't feel like a different, new car but an extension of my Boxster experience. The Mustang SVT will be about 40% of the price, certainly will be fun, and is a whole new experience for me. It's not nearly as beautiful as the C4S but after some more b.s. at work I'm thinking: have fun with a daily driver Mustang SVT, have my Ferrari 328 for fun, and invest the rest. I could modify the C4S with a Tubi exhaust and lower the suspension to make it more of a novel experience. I've always loved the look of wide-body Porsches. I'm kind of on the fence--kick me over it. I'm ready to take a lot of #$% for this post.

If you're willing to settle for considerably less (ie: Ford), why not consider the Nissan 350Z? There are few cars in this category coming down the pike soon. Also, why not look at the M3? Not driven a Ford yet that didn't feel like a POS.

M3 didn't too it for me. Lack of chemistry between the car and myself.

<img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> Get the Mustang! Let some other schmuck on the wait list get the C4s, I wish it were me. Sounds like a personal decision. I would never want a Mustang, but there is something appealing about that much raw power. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

If you like the idea of "novelty", then why not drive a 928GTS, or earlier 928 and see if you like it? Don't drive anything with more than 80k, and with any problems. It will sully your experience. If you truly have an open mind, why not just drive one?

Re: 928--Because this will be my daily driver and I need a reliable car and would like warrantee coverage.

I'm new to this discussion board only in the context of being a registered member. I have been a side-line observer for some time and have enjoyed both the technical and subjective commentary. I finally decided to register this morning after taking delivery on an 02 C4S last night - Seal Grey/Black/6 spd/Sport Exhaust. I thought I would share my first impressions. I have always preferred Porsche models with the "wide-body" look and that holds true with the 996, as I believe the wider stance just looks bolder. In terms of performance, I prefer the total delivery of the C4S to every other car I drove in comparison - M3, Z06, CLK55, '97 993TT and '02 996 C2-aero. I just feel like the most important characteristics of each of these fine autos is, to a large extent, bundled into the C4S. I shed a MB E55 in deference to the more sports-car oriented C4S and I expect to drive this car liberally - although not as a daily-driver. I expect the AWD and 320hp to provide equal parts of utility, reliablilty and excitement and I expect the limited numbers delivered to the US to help at resale. I say set aside all of the statistics regarding lap-times, 0-60 and bhp and just go out and drive around in this car. In the 100 miles I put on the car last night, I was amazed at the number of looks, nods and thumbs-up I received - including a fellow car-nut in a Prowler who very obviously did loops around me on the expressway in order to take in all of the C4S' angles. I sensed that those who were admiring the car knew it was a Porsche, but that it had that "something special" appeal. It sounds funny saying it, but it was the easiest $90K I ever spent.

Let me say that I will only drive a stick. BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Japanese do not move me. Mercedes* has no manual tranny here. GM makes lumbering V8 dinosaurs (Camaro & Firebird)with an interior half-life of 4 weeks. Ferrari 456GT is too expensive and not reliable; Ferrari Mondial is the same as my 328 but a four seater and the a/c is poor except for the 'T' version but that's nor reliable either since it's an iteration of the 348. *ML is my wife's car. Makes her happy.

Hey Jim, there's nothing wrong with the Ford Mustangs, the engines are bulletproof, always have been, always will be. The Mustangs themselves hold up reasonably well over time too. There are plenty of mods out there to make it brake and handle better. I have to check but I know someone with a rare unmileaged and tracked Cobra R that I think he still has for sale. It's your money, do what you want. K

Jim, unless 2003 Mustang is a completely new car compared to the latest Cobra, I wouldn't come near it. I did several track events with a guy in a supercharged Cobra. That was quite pathetic: he couldn't get away from my stock 99 M3 on a straightaway, his brakes would overheat after 10-12 laps, the cornering speeds were unimpressive. That person isn't a bad driver (not worse than I am, anyway) --- his car is an overweight underpowered monster with bad brakes. And the interior doesn't even come close to C4S... Have you looked at Corvette Zo6?

If you are tired of the Porsche experience, i.e. your statement via your Boxster, buy the Mustang or a ZO6.... a car is not like a wife, if you are unhappy later get a car divorce....costs a few bucks, but what the hell...

There is no comparison of the fit and finish of Porsche compared to any American car. The Ford leather is absurd. The seats are would have to be replace wth with Recaro or the like for safety reasons: the Mustang headrest only reaches the top of my shoulders and does not cover the back of my cervical spine and head. I drove the Z06 and as a daily driver the suspension is brutal. I think it could rival lithotripsy treatments for kidney stones. I enjoyed the C5 but then my wife, who encouraged me to acquire any car I like bur requested a 2+2 configuration which we really could use. She favors me ditching the Boxster and Ferrari for a 996TT but the Ferrari is the most fun car I have ever driven and it ain't goin' nowhere.

If it were me I go for the C4S simply becuase there's few good 2+2's out there which the zo6 is out of the question and any other 2+2 you have to pay and arm and a leg to get one ie ferrari 456/aston martin etc. It's a joy to ride any Porsche like you stated with the boxster and the C4S would allow more then 2 to seat and other people seeing you in your C4S will go gah gah over it : ). Maybe a step up is the turbo but will costs more if power is what you want in a 2+2 package. Regards. Mike

Jim I inquired about the Mustang for sale but it's one of the 250 Cobra R's and therefore has absolutely no creature comforts like AC or power anything. The same owner has a 96SVT but that car is a convertible and you mentioned that you're already tired of the cabriolet. K <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Thanks kindly for inquiring about the Cobra and all who responded. I left work today after a 13 hour day and am on call tonight. Walking into the almost empty parking lot at 9 pm and seeing my Boxster made my smile and provided a brief second-wind. I started the after I lowered the windows to hear the growl echo in the parkade. While driving home at an aggressive speed on I-95, a Mustang and Lexus flew past me in a drag race (&gt;120mph). I then thought how content I was in a car that could easily top speed both of them if I was stupid yet still feel safer on the road. Then I remebered how my Boxster fish-tails in the rain unless I gently apply throttle. All these thoughts, the handling, etc make inclined to go for the C4S. Seeing the curves of the C4S is akin to seeing and then 'driving' a voluptuous woman.* I'll make it more different driving than the Boxster (more than a stock experience) with lowering and a custom Tubi exhaust. *Apologies to those I offended, if any.

get the Mustang, then make a stop in Mcdonalds. ...no comments. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

[quote]Originally posted by bilstein 996C4: <strong>get the Mustang, then make a stop in Mcdonalds....no comments. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>Nah. Instead, I'll get a job in McDonalds just like Lester Burnham in the film American Beauty .

I think Berkley has a good viewpoint. It's just a car, so why not try something different? I sold an E36 M3 and bought a Z06. Do I think the Z06 is 'better' then an E46 M3, a Boxster S, a used 993, a used 996, a used Viper, a used NSX, or any other $45,000 to $50,000 car? Not really, but I'm sure having fun with the car. The Z06 is easily as good as the E36 M3 for use as a daily driver and I drive the car regularly rain or shine. I think you'd enjoy the Mustang. I assume you mean the 390 hp version of the car, which is bound to be quite a ride - don't underestimate how much fun horsepower car be.... Jim

I doubt I could ever be without a Porsche (01 996tt & 02BoxterS), but I am on the top of the list in my area for the 03 Audi RS6 sedan (450hp AWD 0-60 4.5sec and 4 doors), now thats my idea of a daily driver.

Sorry for that one, just my 0.2cent..

get Mustang. prepare exit plan, you'll be out of it in a month.

[quote]Originally posted by Kevin E Davis: <strong>get Mustang. prepare exit plan, you'll be out of it in a month.</strong><hr></blockquote>Based on experience? (Seriously.)

Jim: I would have to agree with Kevin's statement above. Keep in mind that the SVT Mustang is still esentially the same car as the base $17,990 V6 coupe Mustang. Yes, you get the engine and suspension enhancements from the SVT deparment at Ford, but you also still get the same plastic components, same cheap, thin leather and other items that go along with a domestic car with a sticker of $18k. The torque of those V-8s are addicting, but you really have to be a muscle car enthusiast to put up with the "feel" that these cars have. They are not refined. Everything is done with plain brute force. I feel you would tire of the Mustang quickly after being so used to the wonderful high quality cars you currently drive. A friend of mine had to sell his prized M3 during some economic bad times and switched to a relatively new Mustang because it still had performance, but was cheap. He found a way to get back into a BMW after only 4 months and a few thousand miles. The Ford was just unacceptable to him because he was so used to the BMW build quality. These cars depreciate quickly too. Much faster than European cars. I've owned (and still own) F-body's for years and they just don't compare to the build quality of Porsche, Merc, etc. My old 911 still feels 100 times tighter than my relatively new F-body. I'm sure the Mustang would have the same type of comparisons. Regards, Jay

Jim: I have owned and driven American muscle cars for many years. If what you want is brute power then go Mustang, if styling, handling, and prestige then go Porsche. The difference is simple: Do you want to drive a NASCAR/Dragster (American muscle cars) or a F-1 Formula Racer (Refined European cars) Or: Would you rather drink a Bud or a fine French Boudeaux The ultimate decision is yours. After so many years driving American Muscle Cars I have made my decision because I am now older, wiser and more refined. Good luck, Bocky '02 Carrera coupe

Jim, my somewhat flip comment is based on my reading of your posts, not on my ownership or intimate familiarity w/ the current Mustangs. Last one I drove regularly was a '65, last ones I liked were of the Boss 302 / GT500 ilk. Drove many when I was in the car biz ('80s). Given the character of the cars you own & what you have expressed about liking them, you might find a Mustang a kick-in-the-pants for awhile, but the "rate of entropy" of driver satisfaction with these cars can be startling to someone who has acquired your habits. If you aren't sure, but you want to make the leap anyway, just prepare an exit strategy going in (being aware of the precipitous drop-off in resale value). Maybe a used one?

Kevin, I understand your's and others points. As someone once said, partying with Madonna might be fun for a weekend but I wouldn't want to live with her on a daily long-term basis. I just noticed the other day during my 16 mi commute to work on the highway only me and one or two others are using Porsches for the daily commute. (There is one guy in a light blue Aston Martin convertible) I got to thinking: Is this too excessive? Then I realized I'm the same guy with a Merc (for the wife), Porsche, Ferrari in the garage and now have to check into an institution with rubber rooms for those with multiple personality disorders.

I owned a 2000 Cobra R for about six months when it was released. It was a unique car, very agressive looking. The engine was incredible but the chassis couln't keep up with it. The new SVT cobra is probably going to be similar to it but with supercharger and more creature comforts. I sold the Cobra R to a collector some time ago. I bought a 2002 Z06 and 2002 996 C2. I love them both. You Porsche guys obviously have some disposable income. As a third or fourth car, the 2003 SVT cobra would be pretty cool IMO.

Jim, I've long believed that buying, selling, maintaining & especially driving cars is a valid emotional & economical alternative to psychotherapy. There is nothing fundementally wrong w/ Multiple Marque Disorder. Embrace the harmless "vices" that keep you on path (even if your not sure where it starts, finishes, or how fast you are progreessing). Your work commute is almost identical in distance to mine. In my first year of ownership, I put 3X the mileage on my 911 than the 3 previous owners averaged annually. I am quite content to "use up" the machine in order to make that enduring experience one of quality. Carpe Drivem.

Been reading the thread awhile, and I'd like to add my 2 cents. In my younger days, I blazed around in a '67 Mustang. I am now older, and had been shopping for a Porsche for a year. Tried the Boxster S a couple of times, had a friend's for about 2 weeks. Then I tried out the Carrera. There is a distinct difference between the two siblings. Not just in the performance statistics and list of specs, but in the whole aura, appeal, and gut feel of the cars. I finally took delivery of an 2002 Arctic Silver C4S 6 weeks ago. Not that one is better than the other, mind you. They are both excellent cars (both are Porsche). But, if your worry is that the driving experience will be the same for both cars, I will tell you they are not, IMHO. The Ford Mustang...well...., I don't believe a Ford Mustang will ever replace a Porsche. SVT, Cobra, or otherwise. May I ask why you want a 2x2? My two older children, ages 9 and 7, can barely fit in the back of the C4S. The C4S back seat is a good place to put your helmet when you are driving around town, and not much else.

Ah, now that I've caught up on sleep (only to be on-call tonight), I think the SVT is a great buy and bang for the buck. But if I plan on keeping the car for a long time, then the Carrera series is the way to go. I think it will a more multi-dimensional experience than the Mustang SVT. And my wife is relieved too ("Are you crazy?") 2+2 : I know the back seats are for small people and packages. But, if I pick the boys (7 & 10) up, then one son goes in the front and moves the seat foward a little bit while the other goes behind him. And if I keep the car for five years, then they're 12 and 15 and it's still reasonable to cram them in there every once in a while. Also, we all test drove the 996 C2, BMW M3, and Mustang GT (SVT isn't out yet). My kids said they'd rather be a bit more uncomfortable in the 996 than comfortable in the other cars. Surely my kids can tolerate the occasional back seat ride in the Porsche. Worse fates have been had by a youth.

If I may be so bold as to suggest a late air cooled 993 (maybe 1997), if you still feel like a Porsche but different. Regards

I thought about the 993 years ago but I just couldn't get comfortable in it: steering wheel position in particular. It just felt awkward. I think the 993 look and sound better but the 996 have better performance (power, torque, handling), a/c which is important in south Florida, and I don't mind a warrantee. My Ferrari 328 is tight but felt better to my body habitus. And I'm 6'2". <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

In which case is your initial thoughts. The 996 (maybe even a 996 targa if ordering new). Then change the suspension, exhausts and anything else to make it feel different Regards

Hey Jim what about the new Maserati 2+2 coupe thats coming out? I dont't know when it's coming out but from the mags with pics and specs looks like a good one. The C4S is still the best player out there for a 2+2 just thought I put it out there. Mike

Thanks. I saw the Maserati convetible and from a distance thought it was a Merc SL500. Up close I didn't think it is very attractive. It has power but I think the name of the marquis is the most interesting part. Also, I think getting the first year of a new car, especially Maserati, despite warrantee coverage, is simply asking for Tylenol. I may hang onto my Boxster a little longer before I get a 996 "S" model; we'll make do with my wife's ML320. The 'stang is out. I'll plead temporary insanity. At least I didn't give my kids a bath during that state of mind.

Yep I'm with you on the Maserati-since its a first ever car who knows how reliable they are and if not be taking more then just tylenol : ). I remember one post regarding if PAG will introduce a C2S version-is it to my understanding you're waiting to see if it holds true? Yeah I love the look of the C4S but there's something to be said for RWD in a 911. I'm waiting to see what happens. Regards. Mike

I would prefer a C2S for the sporty handling but the occasional summertime flash flood would make me feel more comfortable in a C4S. If or when I get a Carrera I plan to keep the car for many years and I think repairs on a RWD could be less expensive and time consuming than an AWD. I'm kind of biding my time: there's no rush. I love my Boxster but would prefer a coupe, a 2+2, and more power. Re AWD: On the other hand, when I first got my Ferrari 328, I drove 2-1/2 hours to Sebring in the torrential rain and then tracked in the rain. If I made it through that then I can handle any wet driving condition.

There's a lot more to the 2002 C4S than just AWD when compared to the C2. Let me list some of the more obvious one's: -Wide body (luscious) -wider track -larger wheels -larger tires -lower suspension -stiffer suspension -better brakes -sport exhaust -different front with air dam (gorgeous) -cooling grill in the rear fender -sideskirts -full leather interior -PSM The AWD system does add weight and therefore compromises straight line driving performance, but the AWD was designed for and comes to life when pushed hard going in, around, and exiting corners. If you are looking for a Porsche AWD system for flash floods, there's the Cayenne. The 2002 C4S is the un-turbo. It has pretty much everything in the turbo but the turbo. Here's an article about the C4S, the un-turbo: <a href="http://www.roadandtrack.com/RoadAndTrack/first_drives/0202_porsche_911_carrera_4s.html" target="_blank">http://www.roadandtrack.com/RoadAndTrack/first_drives/0202_porsche_911_carrera_4s.html</a> Hope you enjoy the article. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

I dont understand how you can compare to two cars.

Palting, When you're right, you're right. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> but... -rear reflector connecting tail lights pleasantly reminiscent of older Carreras. -I did not know that the Sport Exhaust is standard on the C4S. Please, don't flog me with the Cayenne. Mercy!

Just still responding to your original request: get you into a C4S.

Just to clarify - Sport exhaust is not standard on the 2002 C4S. Mine arrived, unexpectedly, with this option and it lists for $2,400. Very expensive, however, I was able to negotiate the price of the upgrade quite a bit since I had not specifically ordered the car with the sport exhaust configuration. I think it sounds fabulous. The characteristics are most noticeable as the engine spools up and then, by design, it quiets down during level acceleration. I had a Fabspeed exhaust system installed on a 1993 C2 that I used to own and I loved the throaty sound it provided. The sport exhaust on my 02 C4S reminds me of my old air cooled 964.

I stand corrected. Just checked my invoice and my sticker. I paid for the darn thing. Like I said, just trying to get Jim into a C4S.

Fun reading this entire thread - from all your posts Jim, it sounds like you had, thankfully, talked yourself out of the Mustang before your last post pleading temporary insanity. Regarding your desire for a 2+2, my kids are 14 and 12 and I do exactly what you intend to do with the passenger seat. I move it forward and my 12 year old son still fits quite well in the back. Up until last year I took both kids and gear up to summer camp - yes gear as well. Windy mountain roads are a great E-ticket as the kids said. At about 2 hours, it gets a little long for my son now being back there. Short trips around town, no big deal. Go order your C4S now! Brent

Jim: I can appreciate your dilema and can only offer my impressions of our '02 C4S with original equipment sport exhaust on which we have about 1000 miles in the first month of ownership. I was a reluctant buyer when my wife saw the car in the showroom on President's Day and had to have it, despite the fact that she then did not know how to drive a six speed manual! To make matters a bit more weird, she has a new SL 500 Sport due in late July. I figured that she would tire of the Porsche and we would trade it for the SL in the summer. Well, I am hooked on Porsche's again. I had not owned a Porsche since I had a new '88 Carrera Cab for a couple of years. It was a terrific weekend car, but was a pain from a maintainence standpoint. I knew little about the 996, but did not especially like the narrow body. To me a Porsche needs fender flares, air intakes, etc. so the C4S was appealing. I did not know just how much the 911 had changed since my '88. Except for the driver's excellent seating position, the two cars have little to nothing in commmon dynamically. I do not think that you would have to lower the C4S, as it is as low as the TT and unless you track it, I believe that you will find it quite firm in the corners. Unlike the earlier 911, the C4S is very forgiving. I have had the PSM kick in only once when I lifted slightly in a tight exit ramp between 50 and 60. Also, if you order the factory sport exhaust, I think that you would be satisfied with the sound. BTW, when the saleman started the car the exhaust was so nasty that my reservations were immediately erased and I agred to buy the car. It is hard to see how one would not be delighted with a C4S. It is also probably the best value the Porsche has ever offered.

Thanks for all the posts and encouragement. I forgot the C4S suspension is a 'light' version of the TT but different than the stock 996 C2. It's not the same as the TT: one reason is the turbo has a heavier engine.

Jim The current issue of Auto Week has a review of the Mustang SVT Cobra that you may want to see.

Hmm....I subscribe to Autoweek. Maybe it's at home waiting for me. What was the bottom line of the article? "Great bang for the buck but if Sloves buys one and not a C4S Rennlisters will lynch him."

The Auto Week article on the Mustang is mildly positive. They guess that it is a 5 second car (to 60). It is probably a good value if one plans to keep it. I think that they said that it will list for about $35,000 and that the production run will be 10,000. BTW, I have decided to sell my '02 CL 500 Sport, as my wife's incoming SL 500 Sport is quite similiar dynamically. I drove the new SL for about an hour a couple of weeks ago. The CL is only 35 lbs. heavier than the SL. I'll keep our 740i in case we need a five passenger car.

I just drove the 2002 C4S. I got a good mix of slow/fast corners and some highway driving. I did not like it as much as my 2002 C2. It definitely looks cool but I prefer the feel of the C2. The C4S feels heavier and less responsive in the turns. I'm going to save up for the turbo, you need all that power with the all wheel drive to get the most out it. As far as the Cobra, I'm amazed as to how much time is wasted even discussing it. Sometimes you need a car with a lot of power and little refinement to appreciate your 996.

I just drove the 2002 C4S. I got a good mix of slow/fast corners and some highway driving. I did not like it as much as my 2002 C2. It definitely looks cool but I prefer the feel of the C2. The C4S feels heavier and less responsive in the turns. I'm going to save up for the turbo, you need all that power with the all wheel drive to get the most out it. As far as the Cobra, I'm amazed as to how much time is wasted even discussing it. Sometimes you need a car with a lot of power and little refinement to appreciate your 996.