So I think my engine is shot. Looking for all of the advice I can get.

First off I just want to say that while I post infrequently I read this forum all of the time. Lots or great advice and a great resource. So here's my story. Went for a nice spirited drive yesterday through the mountains to meet my dad for some shooting and male bonding. Beautiful day for top down motoring. About 40 minutes into the drive home I heard a 'fluttering' sound from the engine compartment, the car displayed a 'PSM Failure' light and the car shut down. I pulled off to a stop on the side of the road, popped the engine cover and looked for anything obvious wrong, looked under the car for leaks and anything out of the ordinary. Saw nothing out of the ordinary so attempted to restart, heard the fluttering again so stopped everything and called for a tow. The dealer called this afternoon and the cars timing advanced, vales collided with piston resulting in chaos and mayhem, and now their opinion is that I need remanufactured engine (to the tune of $20k + install). I will say that this dealer has always been good to work with, and I realize they don't rebuild engines so this may be their only option. But I'm looking for opinions and advice from anyone that's either been in this situation or can help. Can I have an engine where there is obvious valve damage rebuilt by someone else? Should I ship the car somewhere for non-dealer rates and service? I'll post some more thoughts about what happened and the car in a bit after I get another beer from the fridge...

Sorry to here you have engine issues What year is your car? Any engine codes? Did they boroscope or compression check?m Mike

Some details about the car: 2004 C2 Cab, a little over 64k miles, always serviced and maintained according to Porsche's recommendations. The 60k service was done by the dealer last August. While I do drive it like it's ment to be enjoyed, I always wait for the oil to warm up before going into the higher revs. I have never over revved the engine, and if I downshift I'm very good at heel/toe and double clutching. Again, no over-revving or zinging of the engine here. When the engine went out on me I was just cruising along in 5th gear. There has been no oil leaks at all, just went out to the garage to double check and it's clean where I normally park the 996. Up to this point the car has been perfectly reliable. No oil or smoke from the car after the failure either. Please feel free to ask any questions or give me your thoughts or advice!

Not sure of any codes, I can find out tomorrow. They are going to check to see if Porsche will provide any assistance for the newer engine. When the failure happened I only got the 'PSM Failure' warning. No check engine light. The flashing 'Check Engine' light was the first thing I looked for and was relieved when I didn't see. They said there was no compression, although not sure if they actually tested for this. They did say that when they turned the engine over, assuming manually, that they could hear the loose pieces in the engine. I don't thing they used a boroscope. The service manager said the only way to really see what caused the failure would be to take the engine down to see where things started.

Sorry to hear that. Sounds like you take good care of your car and warm it up properly. Just curious do you change your engine oil every 15k miles per Porsche reco or you do it more frequently?

If I were you I would go to the dealership (unannounced) & tell them you want to see the car & have them SHOW you how they came to this conclusion. Then tell them you want to see the oil filter & check for metal. IF there is lots of magnetic metal in the filter (bring a magnet) you know that metal has been thru the engine & it must be disassembled for a rebuild. In any event see if Porsche will give you an "allowance" but I wouldn't count on it. Search this forum for engine rebuilding options.

I'll stop by the dealership sometime tomorrow and look at the car. Might be nice to help me visualize what they are describing. As to the oil changes. It's a 3rd car for us and we do approximately 5-7k miles a year. Oil changes are done once a year. The car has never burned any oil before.

Why would there be metal in the filter if the valves collided?

If the timing jumped, there will be a trouble code, showing this. If they can hear parts rattling during cranking, then they are probably broken valves. If they checked for compression, the spark plugs are out. The broken valves will smash the enf ofnthe plug so it will be fairly easy to see this. If this is the case, the engine needs to come out.

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There may or may not be, but if there is for whatever reason the engine will need to be completely disassembled & cleaned before reassembly, & it sounds like his dealership can't do that.

I am curious about the fluttering sound. Did it sound like a loose bolt rattling around? I ask because it could be the intermediate shaft (ims) bolt that came loose. This could then cause the camshaft to lose its timing, and causing the valves to collide with the pistons. Check to see if there is metal shavings in the oil. It would most likely be from the ims bearing.

Recently, an old friend of mine thought his motor was "shot" as it was suddenly down on power, CEL on, etc. His local dealer gave him a similar story so he called me up. After getting the engine in hand it was actually just a loose intake cam bolt which bent most of the valves in that head. Ultimately, he wanted to go through with a complete build since the cam sprocket ground away part of the cam and there was some very fine metal in the oil. It could have been MUCH worse. Get your car and/or engine into the hands of someone knowledgable before making any big decisions.

I don't know how adventurous you are, but can you have them manually turn over the engine 720 deg? You should be able to hear the interference if it really is there. Ben

If the valves punched through the piston tops shattered metal would travel into the crankcase I'd think. If it's a cracked head its still going to be a high price running 9000+ for removal with some more in whatever parts and labor adding up so probably 15000 for one head at the dealer. 5000 extra you have good stuff all around with 2 years of coverage. What knows what wants to go next. It's probably best to sell the car. I went with a rebuilt by porsche engine. I don't think the rebuilt is as powerfull as the old engine. If the cars in great shape maybe store it as a project car.

As to the fluttering sound I heard, my first thought was that a belt came loose or intake hose popped off. I installed a new water pump about 4k miles ago, so first check was that belt which was fine. I didn't hear the 'marbles in the engine' sound most people think is associated with IMS so I was pretty hopeful that it was something relatively minor. I guess my next question is what would everyone do next? I can't justify 20k for a new engine, 15k seems excessive to me. I live in South Carolina, is there a reputable independent Porsche shop close by for a second look that you would recommend? If I go to see the car outright what is it worth (full leather, sport exhaust, 24k in factory options)? Thanks for all of the responses. If rebuilt engines were still in the 10k I would go that route no questions asked...

Look at recent threads posted about a California business that has engines for affordable numbers that Rennlist members have recommended.

A phone call to Don at EBS might be worthwhile .He has a good reputation on other forums .

there seems to be some doubt as to the reality this can happen and can be diagnosed well I can confirm both - We have seen not only valve spring break, but valves smashing pistons and making a hell of a ruckus - you can look in through the spark plug hole with a bore scope and take pictures of it - also seen one where there is some sort of a metal spike impaled into the head and the piston hitting it every stroke - car still runs! we have no clue as to what the metal spike is - we think it is a piston ring/land they broke off - the car was taken home by the owner so we didnt get to tear it down - yet, maybe someday...its most interesting - motors can be fixed and dealers are interested in fast in fast out - part swap, big money stop going to the dealer and go to someone who repairs cars not replaces motors, maybe they can rebuild it - maybe not but at least they will consider it. My shop just did a rebuild on an m96 that was a D chuck and needed a new case - turned out very well....upgraded to a 3.6 while they were in there..... look at options, none will be cheap, but many could be better

Ya I've seen valves punch themselves into the piston tops. Just not through them completely. IMS makes sense. I'm still learning about these engines. I replaced my 4-6 head for a total of 2500 and that was with arp headstuds. I used a oem used head that came with a warranty. The dealer wanted a total of 10k to do the job. I quickly took it back after I heard that. If you love the car and want to enjoy it more without spending an arm and a leg just opt to pick up a used engine. I see them go for 6-8k all the time. The engine swap has got to be one of the easiest that I have ever done. Two engine bolts, two trans bolts, a few coolant hoses, two quick disconnect engine harness plugs, two power steering lines, two axels, maybe the driveshaft, and a/c compressor. Then it will be laying on the ground in a few hours. Good luck! PS if you do want to sell it please let me know

Well I spoke to a reputable vendor that sells rebuild engines. They go through each engine and provide a year warrante with their work. They don't sell engines that they haven't rebuilt, so I know there is peace of mind for me that I'm buying a quality engine and not something that's been passed along from another car with questionable history. So a rebuilt 3.6 is 12.5k plus installation. To add another variable they also have a 3.6 that's been converted to a 3.8 with high performance internals for 16.5... This pumps HP to aprox 375 and gives a nice linear torque band to boot. So that's an option as well. In the end I have to decide whether or not I'm going to keep the car after it's been repaired. I've been toying with the prospect of selling for the past few months and picking up a nice 993, Lotus Elise, Acura NSX, etc... Not because I don't enjoy my car but I've been thinking it would be nice to try something new. So I'm approaching this from the standpoint of if I was looking at buying this car what would be important to me? Knowing that the engine was replaced what is the new engines history? Is it from a parted out 996, was it rebuilt, if it's a new engine how well was the work done? You get the picture. So I would look at what piece of mind the new engines source be in determining where to go from here. I'm reluctant to put a lot of money into trying to fix the current engine because I don't want to keep throwing money into something when I could have bought a completely refurbished engine with warrante for a little more. Plus, whoever buys the car doesn't necessarily know how well the work was done unless it was from a reputable source. So there are some options. Thanks for all of the feedback from everyone, I truly do appreciate it. Curious to hear what people say vs 3.6 or 3.8 for $4k more too.

I could also get a refund for my engine core provided its not blown apart in the neighborhood of $2-3k as well. Hopefully, since the car still has shown no signs of oil leakage the block itself is ok.

Sorry to hear of your problems! Mind sharing the name of the engine rebuilder?

Call us for a second opinion.. You are in South Carolina and very near us here in Georgia. Your car can join the rest from 18 other states and three other countries that currently populate our property. I have one of my CPO engines in stock, or we may be able to resurrect yours. In the past month we've saved three engines that were deemed non-repairable by Porsche dealerships and are working on #3 now to add to that list.

The rebuilder is dC Automotive out of Raleigh, NC ( www.dcauto.com ). My dad is good friends with the Service Manager at his local Porsche dealer and he recommended them. I don't want to say which dealer because I wouldn't want to get him in trouble for anything, but he is a good guy that we've known for a long time so I trust his judgement. Jack, I'll give you guys a call later today when I have some free time. I'm open to all options and I'm not in a rush to do anything. Just trying to do my due dillagance. Thanks!

Just sent you a PM with a couple options and a recommendation you contact Jake, Mike

In the end, it's just a motor that's in your car. Dealers are generally parts and assembly replacers any more, not ones to disassemble and actually repair anything. It's not a big money maker to do things like they used to be done and things are more complicated these days. The indy near you may want the job. They will most likely drop the motor, pull the heads, access the damage and take it from there. Rebuilt heads can be found or yours can be repaired with new valves and guides as needed, resurfaced, possibly new lifters as well. I'm assuming a chain related problem that need attention as well. GL with the fix.

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Sounds like you have made your decision and thats fine.. Making the decision is 1/2 of the battle; we can't do them all and even if we could, we wouldn't want to. Let us know what the end result is.

If I had to have my engine replaced on my dime, I would without question buy one from Jake. I'd much rather have his re-engineered engine than one merely rebuilt to factory standards, or for that matter, by Porsche themselves. If I had a warranty that was paying for the engine, then I suppose Jake wouldn't be an option since he has said he doesn't accept payment from them, unless I misunderstood.

Thats correct. I'd rather turn a job down as waste time dealing with the warranty companies. (I do it routinely)

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Copple, here is the answer to your question: " Plus, whoever buys the car doesn't necessarily know how well the work was done unless it was from a reputable source." Jake's CPO engine or yours sound salvagable too!

Sorry to hear about your experience. Whatever you decide, at least talk with Jake Raby at Flat 6. I have a friend in South Florida who took his car to Jake after getting hooked by another rebuilder and Mike's motor is absolutely amazing. I understand Mr. Raby is expensive but we get what we pay for in this game and his work with the 996 engine defines the state of the art in many peoples opinion. When my track day 996 goes, I know who is doing the work. Best luck to you, Scott

knock on wood/God forbid but if mine craps out, the no-brainer choice is a rebuilder with a proven/tested track record.....FLAT 6 FTW

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I would get a second opinion... DC auto.. I have heard good and bad about. But more good then bad... Two, there are no friends in the automotive industry... Just people that take advantage of people that think they are friends. Get a second opinion.... I think valves crashing and the aftermath would be more of a clank than a flutter.

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Nicely put. There are exceptions to every rule, but I think this is a good one to always keep this in the back of your head.

I strive to be that exception......

Sad to say shark attack is 99% correct in his friends statement,the older I get the more I realize my wife is my only true friend and every time I put my money faith into a car related venture I come away dissapointed.

Thanks for all of the feedback everyone I truly appreciate. I had a nice conversation with Jack yesterday afternoon. Regardless of what I decide, it was a very informative and educational conversation. I would recomend that anyone in my position at least talk him before they decide which path to take. I'm still trying to decide which path to take. Not in a rush, just taking my time to make the right decision. I am going to have the car looked at by a local shop for a second opinion sometime in the near future. I'm not going to be purchasing a crate motor from Porsche or having that dealership do the work, primarily because it's more economical to have a independent perform the work plus the added benefit that they are more familiar with our cars. At this point my options are: 1) Try to have my current engine repaired. Costs for this could range depending on whats damaged. 2) Buy a refurbished engine. I'm thinking that dC Auto is the most economical for me. Completely refurbished engine with an updated ceramic IMS bearing and updated internals for 12.5. Install is 1.5 and comes with a warrantee. If my block is deemed salvageable I can recoup 2k back. 3) Sell the car and move on to something else. The 996 was a third car for us so there is no rush to do anything, although I don't want it to sit too long. Part of my delimia is I was considering selling the car before this happened and would likely do so after its repaired. I'm thinking that worst case if I end up replacing the engine how does that affect re-sale value. New engine would have the updated ceramic bearing and come with a years warrantee, to me that would provide so me relief or even be an incentive to anyone looking at the car as the major worrie area has been addressed (ceramic IMS) and the new owner would start life with a motor they know the history of. I would also have the clutch replaced as they are anyways. Also considering keeping the car as we've always enjoyed it too. We already have a planned vacation this weekend so we're going to put this in the back of our minds and enjoy some time off. Thanks to everyone thats contributed to this thread, I appreciate it.

Glad to have been of assistance. You have the absolute best mindset right now... Take your time, make no quick decisions and do as much research as possible. With the mileage on the car and the symptoms that we spoke about I'd believe that resurrection of this one is possible, but we do tend to work from a worst case scenario; so don't get your hopes up. It would be worth grabbing that trailer and running the car up here, if you arrive here one morning and drop the car off we'd probably have an accurate diagnosis with conclusive results by the end of that day. Drop it off, spend the day in Helen Ga and then you could see what we see when we carry out our procedures. Thats the best way to take advantage of only being 5 hours away from us. Something like this would require an absolute schedule with an appointment made at least 3 weeks in advance, so let us know if you want to do it.

Thought I would provide a little closure to this thread. Porsche called me after having my car for a few days and said that they would supply the engine, I would just have to pay for installation. Since my car was out of warrantee I had pretty much written any assistance from Porsche off, and was expecting something like "We've thought about your situation and we'd like to offer you the opportunity to buy a new Boxster for MSRP!" So when I got the call about the engine I was pretty blown away. After having my car back and driving for a few weeks I'm really enjoying it again. I had the dealership replace the clutch while they were doing everything else as well. In many ways it's like a new car to me. The new engine comes with a two year warrantee from Porsche, and has the updated IMS design from the 997. It was pretty neat to see the block before they installed everything, I had no idea that everything attached to the engine was new when they did this. Pretty shiny now! So here are my thoughts for those who may go through this in the future. From talking to my dealer this is what we believe helped me get assistance from Porsche. - This was my second Porsche. - I've had all major maintenance done at the dealer (60k service). I've changed my own oil. - My car was a CPO when I bought it, and had I driven it more the failure 'should' have happened while it was under warrantee. - Car never exhibited any RMS/IMS leakage or tell-tale signs. So for those in this situation in the future it may be worthwhile to have it looked at by a dealer and seeing if any assistance could be provided. This may be more the exception than the rule, but I'm sure glad it worked out for me! Take care.

Best possible resolution - congrats! Like a $15k early Xmas present!

Wow, that is good and goes counter to what you often people say about Porsche and standing behind engine failures in 996's....Good to hear and if you do sell it, now's the time, having a new engine with a warranty should make it worth quite a bit more now than the day before "the incident"...

That is fantastic news. Enjoy.

You really got lucky on that one. Congrats! Anyway, if a person could afford it, get the JR engine. If you cant afford it your other option is to learn to do work yourself or you have no business owning a 996. But, please get JR's name right. Its JAKE not Jack.

That's great news! Good for you.

Agreed, great news!

http://www.flat6innovations.com/ There was just someone on here that had an alternator seize stalling the engine. Dealer told him new engine also. Many of them don't even want to work on these cars.

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That was me. Jake Raby and the Flat 6 elves had me up and running in no time. Über honest gang up there in Cleveland, GA.

Wow, great news! Some people have all the luck. I am happy for ya!

So stoked for you Copple! A very happy ending indeed.

best ending possible !