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YOUR RESEARCHEngine is damaged - not an IMS failure!
Reported or suspected cause
low mileage cars
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Reported cause · Original poster
996_North - that's what I was thinking - this issue was for low mileage cars ....
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Just came back from the shop - he said he checked the codes when it arrived and they indicated it was firing on only two cylinders when it stopped.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I've used magnetic drain plugs for 30 years, and never, in a healthy engine, including my 996, so far, have I ever cleaned off enough metal debris to even give it a moments thought between oil changes.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
From what I understand, when an engine gets damaged like mine it just gets replaced, period.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
third i spoke with so many Porsche mechanic regarding the IMSB Issue and NO ONE really believe in it.They have had some problem at the beginning when the engine was low mileage and they had to changed some engine because of RMS or IMS but no more one now and since a long time.
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Suggestion
These chains don't break by themselves something else gets loose 1st to start the "chain reaction" These heads have loose fitting valve seats making them prone to coming loose & the IMS chain gear sprockets are pressed onto the IMS, so you need to completely disassemble the entire engine & clean & inspect every single piece for excessive wear.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I've used magnetic drain plugs for 30 years, and never, in a healthy engine, including my 996, so far, have I ever cleaned off enough metal debris to even give it a moments thought between oil changes.
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Suggestion
Instructions clearly state, and it has been repeated here, with every oil change, you must clean off the magnets in the sensor to prevent false positives.
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I was on my way to dinner the other night and all of a sudden the engine lost power, so I shut her down and coasted into a parking lot. No "nails in a can" sound, no warning and I didn't try to restart it, knowing the drill.
Had it flat-bedded into my indy: just heard - intermediate shaft. They want about $25,000 for a new engine here in Canada from Papa Porsche. What are my options? Doesn't sound like there are many used ones around. Does anybody rebuild an engine in this condition?
I've been reading this forum for years - never thought I'd be a statistic.
Oh man sorry to hear that. I think rebuildability depends on the condition of the motor.
I have to admit, your post makes me want to go outside and hug my LNE IMSB.
Real sorry to hear that man. It remains a anxious issue for all in the subforum, regardless of what they say.
I would check with a dismantler and see if they have any 996 with wreck front ends.
If it lost power without any rattles it might be a candidate for a rebuild. It's when you hear the rattle and banging that it's all over. Then the motor is just aluminum scrap.
All the best.
Jim
I'm surprised at the cost they quoted you. Would it be possible to call some indys in Washington State and flatbed your car across the border for a lesser price?
You can buy an entire used 996 for 20k. Take out the motor and sell the rest of the parts to help pay for it. Or, just drive the replacement Porsche and sell your old car for parts.
Conact Porsche and see if they will do Goodwill... They give Engine and you pay Labour. Ask Dealer to Help. Thats if you have a good relationship with your Dealer...
Here is a rebuilt engine that requires you to send back your core, $6900
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-996-...item2c64746b5b
Read the specifics, this builder offers a one year warranty and has replaced everything with OEM parts including the IMS.
If you really do need an engine search around you can find one for a hell of a lot less than $10K
Just quitting outright and with no sick sounds... That doesn't read like IMS failure.
I'm with others... get a second opinion on that IMS diagnosis.
At least remove the oil filter housing and dump the oil and filter element into a *clean* drain pan. If the IMS failed bad enough to kill the engine the oil/filter element I would think would have enough metal bits to start your own metal recycling center.
Engine dying with no drama, but like flipping a switch...It could be something as simple as a bad (failed) fuel pump.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Interesting, I read about the comany selling the engine on eBay and found a thread about them here on rennlist.
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...torsports.html
Yea since you are in Vancouver i would have it Shipped to UFO for a Rebuild and Drive it Back. Save a Ton and Hit up Las Vages on teh way back. ROAD TRIP!!
Macster and White99C2 - Good points. There was no noise and absolutely no oil on the ground. I'll dig deeper into it. Got the call when I was out on my bike an hour ago and didn't ask a lot of questions. Guess I was a bit shell-shocked.
Byprodriver - I'll let you know how it evolves.
Did they remove the transmission and physically remove the IMS cover to confirm it is the IMS that failed? If not, how do they know with certainty it's the IMS and not a myriad of other possibilities?
Sorry to here of your delema.. What dyu mean you 'just heard' intermediate shaft? I mean didnt they go on to explain fully what was going on. You say No nails in tin can sound.... So there was no sound at all. It lost power and died and you didn't try to restart it.? Then be quoted $25000 I presume Canadian Dollars, for another engine. You had no pre warning. You never checked your oil filter for bits of metal or plastic? So you are taking your Indy's word for it?????? Something stinks here or you are pulling my plonker about the whole thing.
Definitely. Run, don't walk.
There are a lot of failure modes, some of which are fatal, some not. And not all of the fatalities are from IMS failure. Cylinder wall failures seem from my experience to be the most common. I've seen AOS failures cause an engine to die, but that is generally something that can be fixed pretty easily.
FYI in Texas a factory remanufactured engine runs ~$13k to $14k USD.
Have someone else drop the sump plate and inspect for metal, and the oil filter also, which are classic signs of an IMSB failure. And have them check the cam timing. If there is no metal debris and timing is still good, then further diagnostics are in order. Any codes?
Just came back from the shop - he said he checked the codes when it arrived and they indicated it was firing on only two cylinders when it stopped. They then pulled the end caps for the cams and the cams were in the wrong position relative to each other, basically indicating internal carnage. He felt it wasn't worth the expense of a teardown just to confirm. They have dealt with three others recently. Can't see why he would bull**** me because either way I would get the engine.
Trapperdog: the interior of the engine destroys itself - no need to look at the bearing itself.
996_North - that's what I was thinking - this issue was for low mileage cars ....
Hurdigurdiman - It's a respected shop in town. I'm not pulling your plonker - I'm into a bottle of scotch on a Monday night.
Well, at least you know. Bummer.
Now you have to think about your options.
Don't rush into a decision if you can avoid it. And save some of that Scotch. This problem can take a while to sort out.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Thanks Macster. I think I will just tow it home, pull the engine myself to see what it looks like. Then I will decide to replace or sell. My head's still swirling - no time to make a decision.
From the details it doesn't sound like the engine is a good rebuild candidate. but do not give up hope. More below.
Anyhow, I'd lean towards a factory sourced replacement engine, but the cost can be prohibitive.
And if the old engine can't satisfy the core requirement... it gets worse.
For instance, I looked into a replacement engine a while back for my 02 Boxster (the engine is ok I was just curious) and with a core, around $16K. Without, add another $10K. And then labor to R&R the engine on top of this plus whatever else (flywheel/clutch) needs doing...
But get some real numbers and shop around. Sometimes dealers offer engines at a good price.
Before you pull the engine or even tear it down, you might see if you can speak to an experienced Porsche tech and see if he'll share with you some of the checks he does (at the factory's behest) when determining a sick engine (under warranty) is suitable to repair/rebuild or if it must be replaced. I spoke with one a few years ago when I came across a 996 engine with a very bad IMS bearing (the engine was in pieces and the bad IMS with its chewed up bearing race was in plain view on a bench) but I would not trust my memory to advise you. Best you get this info straight from the horse's mouth.
If you can get a list of the checks you can approach this teardown with the possibility that if the engine is rebuildable you learn this with the minimum of time/effort on your part and you do not do anything that can render the engien non-buildable (or unsuitable to serve as a core).
Or if the engine is not rebuildable you know for sure and cut your losses.
Best of luck.
Sincerely,
Macster.
There was a used (original) engine for sale here for a reasonable amount a few weeks ago. Don't remember if it was 3.4 or 3.6, or if it's still available. You could also go the LS1 route for less than half the amount of a new Porsche engine. Sacrilegious, I know, but more power and a lot cheaper.
You Tube
When was the last time (mileage passed) since your last oil change?
If you did it yourself did you inspect the filter for metal particles?
Did dealer or indy do the oil change?
Thanks
thats really bad luck sorry to hear. Keep us posted on you progress. Someone on 6speedomline was selling a rebuilt motor for much less than that so you might want to check it out.
For the rest of us a harsh reminder, 2k now or 20k later, get a replacement IMS, it hurts reading about this.
With the IMS Guardian able to detect other impending failures other than the bearing going south....just wondering if this would have sounded an alarm and made a possible engine save.
Maurice - My last oil change was just 6 months/ 6,000 km's ago. I take it to a dealer once a year for an oil change and for a few extra bucks it's nice to have a Porsche trained tech look over the car. Guess that didn't help. I'm sure the filter was not checked.
I suspected I was "safer" with a higher mileage car but even so, had planned to do the IMS when I did the clutch which was coming up. Famous last words.
It's really hit or miss with these engines...
I had my IMS done and with 113k miles on the original engine my mechanic told me the bearing looked brand new. And this is even on a diet of Mobil 1 0w-40.
So I don't know if we can even establish a pattern here as to which vehicle and when the problem will happen. It sucks to hear that it has happened to one of us here on Rennlist...
Im so sorry man. I also have a high mileage engine (86k) on a 2005 C4S .... I thought I was passed the point of IMS risk .. this scares the hell out of me
Sorry about your trouble with your good looking car.......
If you replace the engine, make sure you upgrade the engine's IMS bearing (offered from LN Engineering), IF you plan to keep the car........
please DO FILE a complaint with the NHTSA , if enough people file complaints about this damned IMS, may be someday Porsche will make a recall ! I mean each year there are less engine to recall making it less expensive for them !
When I see ford recall because of 5 report on the NHTSA website ... I can't believe IMS can be a big issue or they would have had to act, I can't see why porsche owner would not report problems like other owner do for the domestic cars.
It all depends on if Hanz or Franz put together your engine and how drunk he was at the time. Monday engines generally do not last as the guys are still hung over and tired from the weekend partying.
I'm sure many of us would be very curious if you could supply those scan codes. I'm still wondering how your mechanic can diagnose IMS failure by simply noting the position of the cams. Top end/valve train damage sure, but IMS? But then again this mechanic claims to have had three such failures recently. Theres that magic three again. Get yourself a second opinion.
Yeah, you raise an interesting point. Couldn't the cam position be altered by the failure of a chain tensioner?
With no noise, no oil spew, with a loss of power, it could be possible.
If the chain tensioner failed could items like the block & crank be saved?
You are right Mike....,
When something happen to our car it's automatically the IMS fault....c'mon folks too easy...
In this case i don't think the problem came from IMSB....no bearing sound...most probably something else brake but not the IMS.
You know it is too easy to say in this tread....my engine brake because the IMSB....Too easy to say it is the IMSB fault. Too many guys on Porsche forum will say the word '' IMSB Issue'' just to maintained the paranoia regarding IMSB problem
first we are not there to see the engine.
second this car is not my car and I don't know how the car was maintained before it breaks.
third i spoke with so many Porsche mechanic regarding the IMSB Issue and NO ONE really believe in it.They have had some problem at the beginning when the engine was low mileage and they had to changed some engine because of RMS or IMS but no more one now and since a long time.
I know LN Engineering will flame me with this conclusion but this is what i'm thinking and each time i see a tread ''IMS'' it make me laugh....NOT once again.
Maybe some day i will have IMSB issue and i hope not but i do not want to go to sleep each night and thinking about IMSB...if one day i can't sleep thinking of that i will sell the car and buy a Mercedes....hoop!!! i already have one....
I would be curious to open the engine and see what really cause the problem.
By the way this is just my 2 cents
Robert
2000 C4
My car did the same thing... Lost compression and died with no noises. A valve seat was the culprit. Many options out there. Take your time evaluating all your options. I chose to rebuild my motor so I knew what I was getting and the motor is warranted for 1 year. It wasn't cheap nor was it the quickest solution. 4 months to complete with the rebored cylinders.
I hate hearing engine failure news. I hope it's not as bad as first diagnosed.
[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:]
http://www.techievampire.net/food/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/not_this_****_again3.jpg
I don't think the engine would be 'toast' as I believe that the Guardian throws up a red light when metal filings or small pieces stick to it. The Guardian is situation in the oil sump I think. We can look for our own filings (which i do) by cutting open the oil filter and inspecting it during an oil and filter change. Then if the slightest piece was discovered, it would be time for an IMS bearing change. To discover plastic bits could be better than metal as then the plastic covering around the bearing would have broken, allowing much needed oil to lubricate the bearing properly. A sump drop would be in order to clear out the remaining plastic plus a new retro fit bearing to be on the safe side. So you are partially correct in saying that the Guardian does Nothing (only display the red light).. I think thats how it works. The time between oil changes is the most unprotected time when the Guardian could save our bacon. Sometimes I wished I had never posted to this forum. I didn't know anything about the fault on the 996 when I bought the car. Thanks to you blabbermouths haha... After saying that, I have learned so much and saved a ton of cash by doing my own work on the car preventative diy work. I gain lots of info everytime I read the forum so here I will stay. Thanks to you guys. You know who you are. Macster especially to mention just one Gem.
You replied to Trapper dog.. The interior of the engine destroys itself and no need to look at the bearing itself.... If that had happened, surely you would have heard all kinds of crunching and grinding, banging and clanging BUT you said on your first post that you heard nothing and the engine just died on you. so you rolled into a car park and then never tried to start the engine again. Something is way amiss here. Either the garage is pulling your plonker saying all those things about the engine, Or you are pulling our plonkers... Hell see if its getting juice and try and start it, you cant cause any more damage if the garage it telling you the truth. You will know something is sadly wrong if you hear rattling and clanging going on as it tries to fire. If it tries as a normal engine would try to start and you dont hear anything untowards, then drag it away from them and take it to somewhere else for their opinions. Nothing lost, maybe a lot to be gained here.
Good lord but some of you are just ignorant monkeys with laptops.
Let's try this real slow for those of you in the peanut gallery... IMS failure happens. It is not a sham invented by mechanics to gouge customers, nor is it a unicorn-like phantom that no one has ever really seen. Not all engine failures are IMS failures. The actual numbers are literally impossible to nail down, but seem to be somewhere between 5 and 10% of cars... Enough so that preventive measures like the IMS Guardian and the LN Engineering bearing upgrade are a sound investment.
And another thing... Throwing out your Internet hoax conspiracy theories while a Rennlist member is looking at a huge bill and the potential loss of a cherished car is just downright thoughtless and cold.
So please just go hang out on TMZ or wherever else the internet collects the lowest common denominators and leave this place to serious discussion and information.
Peace out.
This like a republican / democrat debate. 5 to 10% IS crap. The OP's car is in trouble but I don't believe the xxx is the reason. I would really take the car for 2nd opinion. Let the lemmings jump off the cliff.
I had a a thrust bearing failure, and when I replaced my engine I put in both the IMS Guardian and the upgraded LN Engineering bearing, because the 996 sitting in my mechanics bay next to my 996 had an IMSB failure, and the Porsche in the bay next to that was a Boxster with an IMSB failure with less than 20K on the clock! What a friggin wake-up call that was to see two Porsches laid-up with IMS failures. IMSB failures are obviously happening, maybe not to me but it is happening to other Porsches around me.
Peace of mind is what I have for the $600 i put into it... just peace of mind- not just for the IMSB but if any ferrous metal shaving end up in my sump... I'm going to know about it before I end up buying another engine .
Some of us monkeys have thousands of hours of track time in 996's driving and racing, and even more time instructing in 996's. Some of us have seen quite a few Caymans, Boxsters, 996's, 997's, M3's, Miatas, Corvettes, Mustangs,... experience engine failures. We pay attention, and follow up with our friends, colleagues, and students on the cause of their engine failures.
Granted none of us have a statistically significant data set. But some of us laptop monkeys have seen that a very small percentage of the total Porsche engine failures are due to the IMSB. Does the IMSB fail? Of course it does some time. But out of the ~10 water cooled engine failures I've seen, only one was IMSB.
WTF is TMZ anyway?
Sorry to hear about your problems - when my CPO ran out I shipped my car to Flat 6 and had a bunch of stuff done including the IMSR procedure, water pump, clutch, lifters, and some other stuff. I sleep better at night now - I just hit 20K miles on my 04 40th AE.
So... In your experience Porsche water-cooled engines do fail, and sometimes it is the IMS. And in the very small sample size you are directly familiar with that IMS failure rate was 10%.
Clearly my post was aimed at those who are stubbornly or stupidly on that river in Egypt, not at you.
Yes but be careful with your statistics. In my very small sample set, 10% of failures were IMS related. That's very different from saying 10% of Porsche engines experience IMS failure.
I agree, 10% of I think I read 189,000 996 cars were produced. From what I've read most of the cars with that IMS failure suffer from poor maintenance and running with a low oil levels.
Over 18,000 engine failures, no way.
I agree before I signed up here I didn't know anything about it and the fear always has me lowering the radio to listen to the engine.
I have a '99 and I read that because of the double row bearing in the '99's they are less prone to failure than other years. I read this in a post written by the IMS God Himself. You know who I mean.
As some of you already know - I suffered an IMS failure a year and a half ago.
IT MADE NOISE.
The oil pan was full of metal shavings.
I got a replacement Porsche crate motor.
The original poster stated he heard no noise. That is not characteristic of an IMS failure in my opinion.
Also, please everyone stop citing stupid statistics about failure rate etc. None of you as far as I know work for Porsche AG and have anything more than anecdotal stuff so please just stop.
My warranty company adjuster told me that they (Fidelity Warranty) insures over 5,000 996 and 986 cars and that the reason why they insure them is because they are one of the most reliable cars out there. He said he could count on one hand the times they had someone file a claim for a new engine in over 7 years he'd been doing this.
My dealer - Herb Chambers Porsche in Boston is one of the top 5 highest volume Porsche dealers in the country. The master mechanic there told me that engine failure is extremely rare and IMSB failure is also very rare - in the 10 yrs he's been there he could recall 10 engine replacements - and 3 due to IMSB - 2 of them 996's and 1 of them a 997.
Again - this is all anecdotal - and even though I suffered that failure I can honestly say that I think all of you should really chill out, enjoy your 996 / 986 and do whatever you want to give yourself peace of mind if you want to. If you don't want to, no one should have the right to call you an idiot for not doing it.
BTW: There are over 250,000 996 / 986's produced and citing "10% failure rate" is the silliest thing I've ever read - that's 25,000 cars and the company would have gone out of business.
I wish Marc Gelefsky would close this thread that has really run its course.
Where did you read that?
I had all my maintenance done even earlier than required.
I had an IMS failure at 26K but since I DID have it serviced properly, it was replaced out of warranty.
I do suspect this IMS failure to be fairly rare and I still am keeping the car. I added a 2nd P car but was sure to get a DFI engine (2012 MY) so there's not even a chance of IMS failure. Long time Porsche owner here and never had any engine issues other than the one mentioned. Of course all the others were air cooled.
Yeh I read the same thing and I have the 99 double row bearing but it doesn't stop me from cutting open that oil filter during each oil change and lowering the radio to listen to the engine. I very rarely use the sounds as i prefer the sound of the car. Nor does it prevent me from keeping a sharp eye open on all the dials on the dash board. Strange that the trackers very very rarely have IMS probs. Maybe thats because they drive the Porsche engine the way they were intended to be driven. Maybe its only the Garage Queens that fall victim to the dreaded IMS failure. Hey I am not saying that if my car had to go in the garage for a clutch replacement that I wouldn't consider having the faults updated. Especialy as my extended warrenty would one day 'run out'... I probably would and i think that would be a wise descision on my part but to outlay cash on a whim I am not prepared to do. Thats like me having a cash bet on a ten horse race and trying to pick the winner without weighing up the odds. Not even a 'place bet',but "
the winner
". No bloody way would I do that, but most 996 drivers have already had that bet. Many of them never even weighed the odds up before paying out the cash so they could sleep at night. And 9 out of 10 of them didn't need the job doing anyway if statistics are anything to go by. Lay next to a good woman, they would sleep at night hehe. I will keep my cash for a more worthy cause. Better still why not do what I did and buy an extended warrenty on the car for 3 years. That covers all the drive train and engine. Yeh I sleep at night but not because I have the IMS covered.. I didn't even know about the IMS when I bought the car. I like to cover a large bet. Any used car is a large bet.. What sickens me is that the IMS retro people are getting fat from the chickens.. Take that statement the way it was intended. I don't wrap anything up.
" What sickens me is that the IMS retro people are getting fat from the chickens.."
Yeah, I really hate that whole innovative capitalism thing. What nerve to make a profit off of other's problems. Jake should probably just fix cars for free. The LN Engineering guys should wear monks' robes and give out ceramic bearings to the poor.
Reality check: If extensive and detailed articles in Excellence, Panorama, 911 & Porsche World, and Total 911 can't convince some people then there is really nothing left to talk about.
(note to self... stop replying to this thread!)
I don't get this? There is obviously a need for the IMS Refit products and people are filling that need, I think it's called capitalism. I for one am a fan of this.
These IMS threads always just go on circles, what else is new.
Good luck to the original poster, keep us posted.
Sorry to hear about your troubles.
If you took you car to MCL then I'n not surprised to hear that quote. Who else will charge 800+ for a ppi.
They have misdiagnosed and been prepared to tear my car apart on more then one occasion. Their head mechanic is a good guy, super knowledgable but many in the shop are hacks with little (read no) experience. i no longer use them for anything.
They are easily double the price of Roger Jobs, the Bellingham Porsche dealer, for any service.
Good luck with your car.
The Hurdigurdiman speaks the truth. Since when is it anti-capitalist to point out a product is defective or unnecessary? I think you are confusing capitalism with criminalism. No I am not accusing any of the IMS related product people of being criminals … per se. But they are cashing in on internet hysteria and that is, well, not exactly ethical now is it?
How do I KNOW FOR A FACT that there is no such thing as IMS failure? Pay attention 'cus this is where I let the cat out of the bag. The IMS bearing is under little to no torsional load (longitudinally not axially). The only reason it even exists is as a manufacturing by-product of going from the split case design to the cradle. Weissach was left with a large hole in the front of the case. Being Germans they stuffed that hole with the largest … no I won't go there. Suffice to say as usual they went with overkill. The intermediate shaft (lay shaft in the older design) would be just fine with a simple sleeve (plain) bearing. I'm willing to bet they wish they'd gone that way. The roller bearing was a bit easier to install from a manufacturing point of view.
Not to wax overly pedantic but keep in mind that throughout this discussion I am referring to IMS failure as a primary failure mechanism (i.e. the bearing or shaft failed and then caused additional engine damage.) Is it possible that a failure in the valve train or really anywhere in the reciprocating machinery can cause a sympathetic failure in the IMS bearing? Hey, if the engine comes to an abrupt stop all that angular momentum went somewhere! Cranks, bearings, mounts, chains, all that stuff comes under a huge torsional load (okay maybe not the chains, they just stretch.)
So ultimately, why are there so many IMS diagnoses? There are a number of contributing factors. The largest is probably that there are simply to few repair shops that are competent enough to do heads-off work on these flat 6 engines (also they need those gizmos that hold the pistons in place.) As a result it is simply easier for them to diagnose "IMS failure" and go about selling you a remanned engine. They make money, the rebuild shop makes money, hey it's a win win! Just not for the guy who dropped 10 large on a remanned flat 6 when all he needed was some valve work. Don't kid yourself, this scenario happens EVERY DAY. "IMS failure" has become shorthand for "I don't know how to fix your engine so let me sell you a new one."
And now for the bad news. Using a "hardened" aftermarket bearing is WRONG! Without providing a crash course in materials science, there is a reason for virtually every materials selection. It's a matter of triage. This is why so many parts are specced with such fine-grained metallurgical properties. Sacrifice the part and save the engine. This trade off is made over and over again throughout the engineering process. The IMS bearing selection is a function of this engineering design process. Simply throwing a more robust bearing at the (imagined) problem is going to cause other parts to wear out and break much faster.
LV
MCL is indeed a crap dealership (hopefully the new owners will improve things) but our friend Bill said he took his car to Weissach who we have a whole lot more faith in.
Yes, there's still a chance the diagnosis was not correct, but it's a slim chance at best. These guys know M96 motors as well as anyone.
Bill - my condolences. If it were me (GOD FORBID) I would:
1) bring the car home and remove the motor myself.
2) determine if it's salvageable (no noise is a good sign right).
3) If it is, then either:
a) crate it up and send it to a reputable rebuilder in the States.
b) talk to the guys at SCAN - they have a source for rebuilt exchange motors that they were pretty happy with.
4) If the motor is toast then either:
a) look down south for a rebuilt motor - not a used one.
b) Buy a used motor and install an LNE bearing at a minimum.
Bummer though man!!
Good luck.
And this is why I can't make a decision. My 04 996 C2 with 72k miles is near ready for a clutch. I ordered all of the OEM parts including an AOS. Although I have no intention of selling this car, I also have an 04 996 C4S with 30k miles, so it is possible that at some point I will come to my senses and be okay with just having the C4S.
I fully get it that from a resale point of view replacing the IMSB with an LNE will be perceived as a benefit by most. But - I am still struggling with replacing the OEM with LNE. My experience decades ago aligns with the above post. I kept "improving" my car. More power, faster, quicker and every component I "upgraded" caused a component failure down the line, putting me on a perpetual upgrade path. (I finally took the beast out for a death drive, spun the crank bearings and then traded it in on a '69 Vette - yeah like I said, decades ago) Left the mechanicals on the Vette stock and tricked out the body instead. Was a great and reliable ride.
I wish we had some input on cars with the LNE that are truly driven - say 12k to 15k miles a year. And what do you do at 40k miles on the bearing? Replace it and do the whole "while you are in there" thing on a routine basis?
As to my 04 C2, oil changes at 4500 to 5500 miles, oil filter always cut open and inspected. Oil analysis perfect. Car is not used for short hauls or just backed out of the garage for a wash, it is driven.
I have a top tier extended warranty on the C4S - so I am good on that one for a bit.
Anyone out there have some real miles on their LNE?
Okay, so with the tons and tons of information about the IMS bearing from known and reliable sources, people choose to believe someone of unknown credentials who has 40 posts?
Do yourself a favor and read the IMS thread on RennTech.org. There is a lengthy tread that I believe has the best explanation of the problem.
I do agree that there are probably many cases where the IMSB is blamed when it is actually part of the collateral damage. But to say that there is no such thing as an IMS bearing failure is beyond comprehension.
I lost my 1983 Euro 944 on the highway. Fuel pump failed and temp gauge went through the roof and I pulled over and she just shut down, that was the last I heard her roar. $4500 to rebuild so I parted her out. Many of you on here have bought parts of her, do she lives on! Lol
RIP little beastie.
Thanks Jasper. I'm doing exactly that - having the car towed home to check it out myself. I'll drop the pan to start with and then the engine to see what's up. I have the time and the space. I'll take it from there.
Gee, I didn't mean to start a firestorm ....
My thoughts on your assertion
-"the only reason it even exists..." Doesn't really matter why it's there, the IMS exists & needs support, so a bearing is necessary.
-Porsche probably does wish they had used a plain bearing, they probably didn't use one because of cost to implement.
-From the pictures I've seen online, the races and ***** look fatigued in failed or nearly failed bearings. Failure could be collateral from something else failing, but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest this.
-You are correct that there are always trade offs in the design process, and some parts a planned to fail before others. However, I can think of lots of parts I'd want to have fail before the IMSB. Also, I wouldn't want such a short service life on a critical component in a high end engine. Why didn't Porsche use a ceramic hybrid bearing? Two reasons 1-cost 2-they probably experienced few if any IMSB failures during testing. It's pretty well accepted that ceramic hybrid bearings are superior to all steel bearings, I wouldn't worry about replacing an all stainless bearing with a ceramic.
-Many engines probably are misdiagnosed, but bearing failures do occur, it is an acceptable diagnosis. Everyone should know this who is familiar with the 1967 Indy 500.
A firestorm (aka sh*tstorm) is guaranteed if the letters I M S and B appear in sequence in a thread....brings out the crazies.
Let's deal with the facts, your motor failed, good chance catastrophically.
I sure would like to come and have a look when there's something to see. Can you PM me?
Also, it will be interesting to see what's inside your oil filter now. It would make a good reference pic if you cut it open.
Bummer though. I reckon it'll cost $20K when all is said and done.
For you yanks listening in, you have to understand that things are expensive here and even when we do look south for parts or services we get nailled at the border for taxes and duty. At least there's no exchange rate worries.
Crap
Maybe so. I should have just said I had a major engine meltdown - but I was just repeating the diagnosis from an experienced shop who had just seen three. Let's face it - I just went into shock.
To be continued ... with pics.
If I wanted to make sure I sold IMS upgrade kits the first thing I'd market is a product like the guardian. Every engine makes metal - every single one - and the gaurdian is a relitively simple chip detector. As such it will ultimately detect metal (perhaps just from normal wear) and then you'd take the next step - an IMS retrofit irresepctive of the necessity. IMS Guardian - result - retofit kit!!
Billyboy,
I believe I was contacted by your friend Dave tonight about your engine issue. The shop your car is at has a good reputation for a reason, I know the service manager personally, as does Jasper, and have bought many cars from them.
That said, give me a ring or drop me an email and we can discuss some options for you. We are extremely busy right now but lets figure out exactly what is wrong and see if we can work something out for you.
Cheers
Just out of curiosity, does insurance cover an IMS failure?
My older brother once drove a car through a huge puddle and water ended up getting into the engine and warping the heads... insurance paid for a new engine.
I know that in the latter point, there was an instance of an outside factor (water) which it technically collided with, but I am still curious as to whether or not it would be covered since a car would also be covered by insurance if it were to go on fire for example because of a mechanical failure.
Why don't you give your insurance company a call and ask? I assume that you have "full coverage" and you can always argue that you suffered a loss of your vehicle due to an unforeseen and unpredictable event.
After all, is not the purpose of insurance to cover you in case "**** happens"?
I was waiting for Jake to chime in til I heard a rumor that he was relaxing on a wi-fi free beach in Negril, spliff in one hand .308 Noveske in the other, popping coconuts in the surf.
I thought that by the time I got to page 8, Goodwin's Law would have reared its head again, regarding conspiracy theories.
Anyway, billyboy, I implore you to keep us informed. Thanks in advance.
Parts be with you,
Targatoo
>>Using a "hardened" aftermarket bearing is WRONG!
Ceramic harder bearings don't need as much lubrication viscosity.
Motor oil is lower pressure than a good grease as long as it's there.
Want ceramic if you open a ball bearing up to the sump.
Ok, i'm very sorry for your problem with your engine. I have had nitemares about this. i had no idea about IMS failure until after i bought the car. I have however had an engine Oil Analysis done after every 5000 mile oil change and so far it shows no wear from anything like a bearing. I have asked other forums about whether this is generally seen as a good guide to approaching problems , particularly IMS problems but never received a reply. whats the general opinion?
Quite incorrect. Your refusal to believe the issue exists just throws your responses to the far opposite end, with LNE some kind of multimillionaire scammer, raking it in with scare tatics. Instructions clearly state, and it has been repeated here, with every oil change, you must clean off the magnets in the sensor to prevent false positives. I've used magnetic drain plugs for 30 years, and never, in a healthy engine, including my 996, so far, have I ever cleaned off enough metal debris to even give it a moments thought between oil changes. If the IMSG goes from clean to alarm between cleanings (1 oil change), you can be damn sure that there is something seriously wrong. Where did you say you got your engineering degree from?
Hi Guys - thanks for asking. Not too much to report. I've been busy so I have just begun to take the car apart. Great support from local enthusiasts (thanks pterfloth). Had fun positioning the car - the tow truck unloaded the car into the garage tail-first which left me no room to slide the engine out. And I have a sloped driveway meaning I couldn't roll the car out to turn it around ... so I had to put the car on wheel dollies and spin it right in the middle of my small garage with inches to spare. Will get back with an update.
Great to see the responses from a bunch of helpful Canucks willing to pitch in with their assistance!
Never thought I would want to comment on the IMSB debate, but I didn't see one person in this thread point out that Porsche changed the IMSB design at least a couple of times and eventually designed out the IMS in the latest version of their flat-6 engines.
Why do you think that is the case if Porsche engineers are confident there are absolutely no issues what-so-ever with the IMSB after they examined all the damaged engines which their management had to pay replacement engine & labour for? Hmmmmmm.......
OP, best of luck and please keep us posted, and pix too if you have the strong stomach to document as you get to the damages, 'cause otherwise somebody is going to say "pix or it didn't happen" or "TTIWWP"!
Mine's from UC-Berkeley, and you're as "quite incorrect" as the other guy. The IMSG could alert months before a bearing fails, or seconds. In other words, it
could
give you time to shut down and salvage, but not necessarily. Whilst it is possible the IMS bearing will slough metal debris over time prior to complete failure, it is also entirely possible for the bearing cage to break apart suddenly. That is not to say the IMSG is useless, merely that it is limited to predicting failure based on a single criterion, which may not always precede catastrophic failure by enough time to make a difference.
Furthermore, even if an alert is sounded early enough to allow shutting down the engine before catastrophic failure, the presence of significant metallic debris would still suggest that a simple IMS retrofit might not be the correct Tx. This is because remnant debris not previously captured by the Guardian magnet could then enter the open retrofit bearing and potentially cause it to fail.
And mine's a BSME from Worcester Polytech, so please point out in my post where I am incorrect? The person I quoted claimed that the IMSG is self fulling prophecy for sales of the IMS bearing, becuase all engine oil has metal in it and will trigger the IMSG at some point, which is what I have issue with. Do you agree with him? Note I NEVER said that the IMS bearing is the cause of detected metal. It is only one, though more likely, source. In addition, ANYTHING is possible, you could be hit by a meteor on your way to work, for gods sake. With all the engines that have destructed, or where people have posted pics of bearings after changing out the IMS bearing (mostly still good, BTW) none I have read about, have been from spontaneous bearing destruction. It is not just "possible the IMS bearing will slough metal debris over time", it is much more likely, as that is the more common abnormal bearing wear on a low load bearing of this type. I see bearing wear and R&Rs all the time in large industrial equipment regularly. BTW, just for the record, I believe, that the number of engine losses attributed to IMS bearing alone is less than commonly believed, and that many of the collapsed IMS were secondary or tertiary casualties of other destructive causes. But without extensive first hand evidence, it is pure speculation. In addition, I thnk the IMSG is poorly named. That DOES indeed enhance the viewpoint of the IMS bearing being the single biggest cause of engine destruction. It is simply an Abnormal Metal in Engine Oil Alarm. But I think sales would suffer if it was called the AMEOA device. And if he doesn't sell enough to make a profit, then no one can get one, so how does that help? A catchy name (no such thing as bad publicity) is required for success. Every predictive measurement device has limitations, obviously. That is why extensive testing is required, to evaluate the effectiveness in real world situations. Since there is no pressurized oil flow to the bearing, retrofit or not, the inclusion of metal debris from parts unknown in the engine passages to the IMS bearing are slim to none. I have to have faith that Jake, who has an extremely good, and long reputation, tested the device as best can be expected (which he has stated that he has) in order to optimize the magnet strengths & distance, for picking up in situ metal for the greatest probability of early detection. He has also posted that depending on the debris found, flushing of the oil ports may be required. But fine particles, in enough density to trigger the IMSG, would not be an issue after an oil change. Debris over a certain diameter would. But I beleive that metal detected of that size, would mean that it was already too late for your engine, or it would require a total rebuild, to be reliable. Also, Jake did not invent the device or idea behind the IMSG, which he has stated. This same type of device has been used for many years in helicopters and other machinery for the same preventative alarming. He has adapted it to a less expensive and specific application, using the drain plug as the port. Ideally, the detector would be installed in close proximity to the IMS bearing to be more effective as an early warning device, but for obvious cost and lack of acceptance reasons, that is impractical. I fully never expect to have an IMS bearing failure. But as inexpensive as the IMSG is, and easy to install, my point has always been "why not?" A freakin Porsche gear shift **** costs more, and a new B&M short shift 2/3s as much, but I don't hear people clamoring that it's profiteering (though it is) on those items.
I'n not a ME engineer, I work in a different discipline myself. From what I understand similar systems are used in Helicopter systems. Obviously a different level of safety is needed there....
But I myself did not get the guardian, but I did have an LNE bearing installed, as well as some of the other stuff of the "while you are in there" ilk (water pump, clutch, some noisy lifters, etc.). I do know there is a small percentage of these cars that can have a problem, so I looked at it as an insurance policy of sorts. I plan on keeping my 40th AE for a while, so I find I sleep better at night. I guess it is up to an individual choice, and I am at least glad there is an aftermarket choice to begin with for the things that Porsche AG won't talk about or give stats on. If they were more forthcoming with that information I might have acted differently - so by doing that Porsche scared me, rather than the IMS vendors using "scare tactics" - they just gave me the choice to either ignore it like some have done, or get the "insurance policy". If I still have the car 40,000 miles from now I will more than likely do the procedure again then. It's not my daily driver, it's my spring/summer/fall fun nights and weekend car. It's an 04 with 20,000 miles on it - 12,000 when I got it in 2009 - so I have put 8,000 on it 2.5 years where the original 2 owners put on 12,000 in 4 years. I know they did an RMS seal on it at 8,000 before I got it - and I also have a new RMS from the IMSR procedure.
I thank the vendors out there that gave me a choice - I personally wasn't scared into it, just a decent investment in a car that can be quirky (and ALL models have their "thing" if you read the buyer's guide for all the generations as many of you know - the air cooled models have their own plights and things to fix).
Regards,
Steve
Still being new to all this, this question may have been asked somewhere along the line; Has there ever been a failure of a retrofit LNE, FlatSix, PP, bearing? Are the retrofits anymore 'guaranteed' than the OEM bearing?
Good question - I haven't heard of any myself, but I am not here daily so I might have missed any posts if any. It may be too soon to tell, but I won't speculate or guess. Perhaps a more frequent visitor or someone with experience can chime in with that.
The OEM bearing isn't "guaranteed" beyond the expiration of whatever warranty exists on the engine -- whether it's a CPO warranty or some other extended warranty.
The LNE bearing gets a limited, 1 yr warranty (check out their website for the details) and it is not a one time fix it and walk away replacement for the original. LNE recommends that IMS bearings be considered as a normal wear and tear item that should be replaced every 4-5 yrs or 50-60K miles or "maybe even sooner with the case of the single row bearing."
Also, even LNE's ceramic replacement (single row) bearings have failed (5 times over 3 years as of their last update) so nothing is foolproof. Nevertheless, they still claim a 99.9% success rate which I believe equates to about 1 failures for every 1,000 bearings sold.
I've heard all kinds of speculation about the total number of 911s (996es and 997s) and Boxsters that have experienced catastrophic engine failure at the hands of the IMS -- some have suggested as high as 10%. I don't know how many cars Porsche has sold with IMS bearings but I'm going to assume the number is north of 300,000. 10% suggests that 30,000 cars have suffered the fate of IMS death -- and, while I don't discount that there's a problem/risk, that number seems very high. Too high, in my opinion, for NHTSA or some other organization to ignore on such low volume cars which may suggest that the numbers are fueled (at least in part) by some Internet paranoia.
Weigh the risks, your options and do what you feel is necessary.
-Eric
+1 Exactly. Right on the nose. Choice.
Actually 99.9% success rate is only 0.5 failures on 500, or 1 in a 1000.
Sorry, just the engineer thing in me...
LOL yeah, I'm not surprised my math was wrong. I forgot to move out the decimal an extra place in my head. I probably should have pulled out a calculator.
In my defense, I haven't slept in 5 months. I'll update my post to correct my feable math skills. lol
-Eric
I could do that, but with only an undergraduate engineering degree I doubt you would understand. (Just kidding!)
And I see anklyosing spondylitis all the time in large industrious men regularly...doesn't mean that I would diagnose it in an adolescent with a stiff neck
Quote from LN's website:
I suggest Charles is the person you should (try to) set straight on this issue. Personally I favour the hypothesis that the failed bearings are the result of hackneyed installation, but I've no data to back it up which is why I continue to call it an hypothesis.
As a mechanic, no doubt. As an engineer? He isn't one. And as a marketing guy, well, the best I can say is that his "Tick Tick Boom" campaign and multitude of impassioned postings on various fora were what created the aura of cynicism and suspicion as to his entrepreneurial motives. It wasn't the first time nor will it be the last, that a well-meaning visionary was, as Shakespeare put it, hoist by his own petard. But I grant him likening to the Jonas Salk of the M96 engine. Without his contribution, we'd all be blissfully paddling up shyte's creek.
I love Big Bang,too...always cracks me up when they ping Howard for "only" having a Masters..
And I agree with everything you said (except that I was as quite incorrect). I know the LNE bearing is open, so of course it is susceptible to foreign matter. But, I read that as "if there was inadequate cleaning prep before the bearing was put in, then **** happens". I agree, bad or hackneyed installation is a more likely call. I also wasn't aware that they've had 5 pre-mature failures to date.
As a I minored in Shakepeare, (much prefer the comedies, though) and that is one of the few lines I know from Hamlet, since it refers to an engineer, it is actually "hoist with his own petard", but the meaning is the same. Still, nice to see all gearheads aren't totally devoid of cultcha..
Jake is selling his product, I agree. Of course, his view is biased, because he naturally sees the worst of the worst, after it's too late. His perspective is certainly going to be unique, so his somewhat "sky is falling" perspective has to be tempered with intelligent thought. I don't see it as "Tick Tick Boom", but for those that do, well fine, then don't buy his product. I certainly didn't for that reason, and I knew all about the IMS bearing debacle before I bought my car 4 years ago. I've said it many times in other posts, the ONLY reason we see so much angst and debate over the IMS bearing is beacause there are too many unknowns and it is EXPENSIVE when it happens. If it was $1000 repair, instead of $15k, no one would bother with any of this. But when it happens, as it has, I can feel the pain. I can't wait to read what the OP finds. I'm betting it is NOT IMS anything, in this case. Nothing fits, well, IMHO. Just a case of "easy diagnosis" for the layman, it appears to me.
And I thought anklyosing spondylitis was mostly genetic, not size related...learn something new all the time.
Not to derail another perfectly good IMS discussion but Big Bang is one of the funniest shows on TV today. There really isn't a weak character in the cast (IMHO).
-Eric
i've been away from the forum for a bit, but it's nice to see the ims situation still eliciting hundreds of responses and posts on a reply.
i'm still not running a guardian or replacement at 56,000 miles, but recently changed oil and i'll be sending it in for analysis. still love it and drive it like i stole it.
sorry to hear about the OPs car.
Yeah, it's been kinda slow here, not even a decent oil debate in a while, so IMS is about the only thing left you can depend on...
Adding Blossom as Amy Fowler knocked the laugh out loud factor up a a notch. The perfect character and compliment to tie the females to the males in another way. Even my wife, who isn't into geek humor, loves to watch it. Seriously, my favorite show.
Not when the threads keep getting shut down... which is kind of annoying because it's just about the only subject that keeps me reading here. Yeeeeeeuuuup, yup, yup... guess I will go back in my lurk hole again for another two or three years until it gets exciting to read posts here again. (LOL)
It was Jake himself who created the "Tick Tick Boom" slogan for a print ad. (For the record I had the retrofit done w/clutch replacement, because I feel it's a well-thought-out product, and worth the $600 as against a $25K engine.)
Every disease is "genetic" even if in no other way than in the variances in response of individuals' immune system to the insult. We don't really understand ankylosing spondylitis all that well. But AFAIK it isn't size-related and I didn't mean to imply that it is. It is also seen in adolescent and even pediatric patients although the majority of the time it's diagnosed later in life.
As I minored in chemistry, I'm more qualified to describe the molecular structure of a petard than to accurately quote the Bard of Avon
I think we should simply block all other threads and just have one, ongoing IMS debate. 137 pages of back-and-forth, quasi-substantiated bickering. The ratings would be through the roof.
But see, I see this particular thread as positive, with a comraderie type of ongoing arguement, not how some degenerate in to useless insult matches. We can't shut this one down until we hear what the results of the OPs teardown is. It's exciting, more so for us than the OP, I'm afraid. Still doesn't compare to the dotframe's wife thread, though....
Thanks for all the entertainment while I tear my engine out guys!
Question - I have everything disconnected except the fuel lines - the manual I have is for a MK1 (mine's a MK2) and the diagram makes no sense for my car.
Parts guy said upper left of the engine compartment ... Maybe I'm just tired - can't find them. Guidance? Pics? Anybody?
NO DOUBT BRO! Seriously, thats a thread I come back to read daily... lets face it this list is as much about entertainment as it is about information. Not much need for much of the information being posted ("Help me make a decision about which wing to put on my ride... SERIOUSLY!!!! <<<<BOOOOOOORING>>>>>")
Needs some DRAMA and ENTERTAINMENT up in hea!
Well folks, it's not the IMS bearing after all. Sorry for sounding the alarm bells but that's what the shop told me so I was just passing it on. When I found out it was going to cost me huge bucks for a new engine, I thought well, I'll pull the engine myself and see what I can salvage and go from there. Surprise.
So, the bearing is solid and runs freely. No grease inside, but it was full of oil. There were some small shavings of non-ferrous metal in the oil filter and even fewer ferrous bits. No chunks or bits in the pan at all.
Now to find the real problem: I've included a picture of the cam positions at TDC and three appear to be in the correct position and one is off, meaning what? I'll be looking at the cams in the next few days ... could it be just a jumped chain on one sprocket - a bad tensioner - is that possible? What would the damage be - just bent valves? What else could it be?
Also, does anyone have or know where I can get a MK 2 manual? I'm working with a 3.4 manual and too much is different.
Thanks for your input and again - sorry for the alarm bells.
Whoohooo!!
Great news for you!!
I love it when I'm right, too!! not the right telltale signs, but obviously if there was oil in the IMS itslf, the bearing was compromised and needed to be replaced, anyway. Damage can't be but SO bad, then. Can you pull the plugs and look inside with a boroscope? If the piston heads look good, then it might just have been a failed chain, or if damage to one piston, a failed valve spring which caused that side chain to jump..but sounds rebuildable to me. Maybe not by you, but a good Porsche indie. Metal found is metal found, so the source has to be traced and the out of sync. Was the grease seal on the IMS bearing still there? If not, that is likely the non ferrous bits you found. Maybe even a bit caused no oil flow and you spun a bearing...
Good luck.
perryinva - (had to stop for supper) - Don't have a boroscope but will take the cam cover off this weekend to see what's up. Good idea though. The seals were still on the bearing. I really doubt there was any shrapnel from it - it's really solid, though I will replace it. Yes, fingers crossed, little damage and a "light" rebuild just may do it. OK, one jumper:
First off - phew. Good luck for you....the edge of the woods are in sight even though you're not exactly out of them yet.
Secondly - let's review the lesson that a few of us have learned today (with me near the front of the class) :
Believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see.
Gotta be honest....I'm a little disappointed in the guys at Weissach. A less adventurous guy would have coughed up the $25K and had them install a new engine without a second thought.
I'm xcited to hear what happens next Bill.
Hah! Thanks Jasper - Yes, if money wasn't an issue I probably would have just sighed and said "Do it". But there was also the fact that I really needed to know what the issue was. If I had ordered a new engine, my old one would have gone back to Porsche as a "core" and I would never have known.
Anyway, I spent a lot of time here on the forum eaking out all sorts of info, and other forum members and friends were kind enough to loan tools, expertise and muscle. Thanks all.
+1000000000000000
Good luck with the fix billyboy, and please change the thread title if it's still possible. If the time has run out for billy to change it maybe the mods can help. Mods?
As far a Weissach, what a fuc*ing joke. Were they trying to pull a fast one or are they just ignorant on the I&)* issue? Either way it's a joke and shame on them.
Billyboy; I wish I could offer some help but, instead, all I can offer is my thanks for following up on the thread. I really admire you guys that have the knowledge to drop an engine and start investigating.
This has been entertaining and educational to watch. All I can say is, next time I'm in White Rock visiting my bro, maybe we can meet up for a beer (and maybe by then I'll have convinced him to trade his BMW for a 911, too)!
Cheers!
I have seen a Boxster S M96 cam chain jump the cam sprockets and cause a catastrophic failure. It actually blew out part of the case wall when it jumped. Strangely enough, the chain fell back in place after the engine stopped. When we tore it apart the chain initially seemed fine. We never did conclusively figure out what caused the chain to jump.
I tried to change the thread title but it didn't seem to work - mods?
As for Weissach, I have no animosity towards them. I think they are a really good shop and it was an honest diagnosis on their part due to the signs. It would have cost me a thousand or more (instead of $100) for them to drop the engine and "check" if it was the IMS. They knew the engine had major damage and in their eyes, it needed replacing.
From what I understand, when an engine gets damaged like mine it just gets replaced, period. That's the standard procedure. Porsche technicians do not rebuild engines, they "repair". The only people who actually rebuild are the Porsche factory, and specialty people like Jake Raby, Jeff Alton, etc. The symptoms I had could certainly be attributed to an IMS bearing failure so in their eyes it was a "replace" regardless. I'm not saying the IMS thing isn't real, it is, but maybe too many engines are sent back as cores without checking. I wouldn't have known - I'd still be thinking it was the IMS if I went for a new engine.
As Jasper said, I'm "not out of the woods yet" - it's still going to cost me a bundle to repair. And I have to get that sucker back in there!!
Billyboy, thanks for posting this thread. It is encouraging to see the facilities you have for a successful engine removal, a lot more representative for many than the massive garages with engine lifts that some have and others dream about!
Cheers Ben
Great news, glad you were able to get into it and take a look!
Let me know if you need some assistance in the future, things appear to be going OK though! Our calendar clears abit after mid June when we hope to open in a new location.
Again, good to see the DIY guy making headway, congrats!
Cheers
[QUOTE=billyboy;9560264]I tried to change the thread title but it didn't seem to work - mods?
As for Weissach, I have no animosity towards them. I think they are a really good shop and it was an honest diagnosis on their part due to the signs. It would have cost me a thousand or more (instead of $100) for them to drop the engine and "check" if it was the IMS. They knew the engine had major damage and in their eyes, it needed replacing.
From what I understand, when an engine gets damaged like mine it just gets replaced, period. That's the standard procedure. Porsche technicians do not rebuild engines,
they "repair". The only people who actually rebuild are the Porsche factory, and specialty people like Jake Raby, Jeff Alton, etc. The symptoms I had could certainly be attributed to an IMS bearing failure so in their eyes it was a "replace" regardless. I'm not saying the IMS thing isn't real, it is, but maybe too many engines are sent back as cores without checking. I wouldn't have known - I'd still be thinking it was the IMS if I went for a new engine.
3-4 years ago replacement was the only option as Porsche dealer techs were not authorized to rebuild M96/97 engines. I don't think that has changed yet at the dealer level.
Glad the damage is less than you thought!
Porsche dealers are currently authorized to -and are- rebuilding or fixing engines for customers. I was looking into buying the tools when I started rebuilding them last year. They're hard to come by, Porsche seems to have only a handful that they pass amongst the dealers. I ended up making my own tools btw.
It's also been my experience that almost any engine failure with an M96 is quickly labeled "IMS failure", it's a self feeding loop as more and more people ask about it and get similar responses from other people that've heard of the same thing.
Well folks, I have a broken chain. I'm hoping there can't be too much collateral damage from that other than damaged valves on that bank but I will have to go a little deeper to find out. No debris when I opened it up so that's good. I did some searching on the forum and it doesn't look like this is a common problem. Curious.
That is a rare failure based on my second hand info.
I am not making light of your situation but I have to use the cliche and state that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If just one link plate (or roller) fails the chain will fail, snap in two like you wouldn't believe. Lost a motorcycle chain once. The chain snapped just like flipping a switch and flew off the countershaft sprocket and I never even found the chain!
Look at the parted link plates very carefully. You might spot an inclusion in the metal of one of the link plates. Look at the roller pins ends too.
If you think something got caught between the chain and one of its sprockets a careful examination of the sprockets and their teeth might turn up signs of this. Then you could expect to find the something in the engine. What it might be though, I can't say.
About all I can think of is possibly a valve spring fragment but you'll know soon as you dig deeper if any springs are broken or if there's any other source of the stray piece of metal assuming this was what happened.
My money's on the chain just being bad defective.
The engine might be rebuildable/repairable. New chains/tensioners/rails/etc of those that are damaged/broken of course along with new intake valves.
If the exhaust valves made contact then new exhaust valves too.
I assume no valves broke and thus one or more valve heads didn't get hammered into the piston/head combustion chambers?
Not sure what I'd do about the pistons even if no valve heads broke free.
Check the rods for straightness and the crank too.
I'm sure you already know this: Go slow and be sure as you can be that the engine is a good rebuild/repair candidate before you sink any more money into parts for it.
Sincerely,
Macster.
XR4Tim and alpine 003 - I haven't gotten as far as the chain guide yet. I presume I will find that when I take the head off.
Macster - thanks for your input. The chain is broken in a weird way - it looks like the two center links snapped and the two outer links ripped apart ... can't figure that one out. Could the valves have jammed up against the pistons and stopped the cams cold, making the chain rip apart? I have no money into it yet so I'll keep going until I see what it's going to cost me. My fear is that I need to split the case to insert new chains and I'm not sure I'm up to that. This has sure cured me of my fear of doing a simple clutch job in the future though.
It would be interesting to grind the "heads" off and drive out a couple of the link pins to see if there is abnormal wear on any of the other side plates.
or
http://www.powersportsplace.com/part...2825/overview/
If the valves contact the pistons at slow engine speed the engine stops. Everything stops. At the same time.
(At higher engine speed valves heads break free and the engine can continue to spin but this just pounds the valve heads into their respectiive piston crowns and into their respective combustion chambers, which is almost certainly fatal to the engine.)
Unless I'm totally out in left field (hey where is everybody?) I do not see how the valves contacting the pistons could have caused the chain to snap.
Regardless you may never know or be able to determine what went wrong.
What you of course want to focus on is that you make a good assessment of the engine's suitability for resurrection and if you deem it worthy and you proceed to resurrect the engine you do a proper job. So take your time; measure twice, cut once; as we used to say in the shop.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Well Bill....that's certainly something new to talk about on this forum. I guess you'll remove the heads next then see what you've got?
As far as splitting the case goes...I'm with you...but I bet it's not as complex as you think and when you look back one day it might even seem easy. That is certainly the case with the clutch/flywheel/AOS replacement I just did. It's just nuts and bolts.
It all depends on tools, time, experience, documentation...and money.We know the skills are there. Just gotta lose the fear and doubt.
It's kind of a drag but you're having fun too right??
I have to admit you are right - I'm actually enjoying this. Wish I had your garage though!
Hey, drop by for a look and say hello when you get a chance.
I'd love to drop by and have a peek. Are you home tomorrow at lunch? If so shoot me a quick PM with your address and I'll burn out from work in my 996.
Ummm, did you catch the part where his IMSB was fine?
The title of the thread was changed and everything.
Don't let me discourage you from hugging that bearing though. I still agree its good PM.
Can you remove the whole broken chain, post some better pics of the break point?
Looking the one's you posted, it look's like something got jammed between the midle chainplates and breaked those first. outer sideplates looks like those could not carry the load and started to wear fast, until the plates failed.
So there might be some small piece inside the engine that gave the "first strike". Or the chain was just defect, like Macster said...
Engine cases are easy to put together, the pistons on the bank 4-6 are not.... With good tool's and time+patient, I'm sure that you can do it
yea I dunno abt that ~ I, too, only have my Masters, tho ~ this is *exactly* the kind of thread that noobs like myself need to read and to fully understand the xxx debaucle.
YES, the chain goes around the IMS & you have to remove it to slip the chain around the IMS onto the chain sprockets. These chains don't break by themselves something else gets loose 1st to start the "chain reaction" These heads have loose fitting valve seats making them prone to coming loose & the IMS chain gear sprockets are pressed onto the IMS, so you need to completely disassemble the entire engine & clean & inspect every single piece for excessive wear. The IMS gears must be checked for alignment & fixed in place, all the valve seats should be replaced for proper interference fit. Lifters are undoubtably
full of metallic debris. If you are unwilling or unable to complete the full rebuild & reassembly you should leave that to the person that will as carefull disassembly is a valuable part of the rebuild process not to mention easier to transport 1 piece as opposed to 200 pieces. Good luck.
Awesome thread. Just to second what Byprodriver said above, careful attention to detail during disassembly CANNOT be overstated. I've got a basket case 1980 911SC in my workspace now and it is a freakin nightmare.
Just an update for those who maybe haven't read all these pages - my engine shut down a month ago and though the xxx bearing was the suspected cause, it turned out to be a snapped cam chain. At this point I have the engine stripped down to the central case and so far the only damage I've found is a small piece of chain (a roller) that has lodged in the oil extraction pump on the 1-3 bank where the chain let go, but everything else looks excellent. (I found the other three missing rollers sitting intact in an oil galley) The chain guides are almost perfect and there's no damage to the pistons or valves, which is surprising. Maybe because I was going so slow when it happened and the engine shut down immediately.
I have to split the case next partly because I have to check everything .... and partly because I have to go that deep to install new chains anyway. I'd be stunned if all I needed to replace was chains and a pump after all this ( and gaskets and seals and bolts ..... and OK, OK, a fresh IMS bearing, and the AOS and a water pump and clutch while I'm in there ......)
I'd be curious to hear what an engineer from a chain manufacturer would have to say about the cause of the chain failure - it looks like it happened in stages.
send some pictures of your chain tensionner along with your mileage, it is always nice to see what wear to expect at what mileage. great to hear it is positive so far.
All right Bill !
I can only describe your action so far as heroic! I guess inspiring would work too.
Once again, I would like to invite myself over during a lunch break some time and see your progress in person. It's not often you get to see a DIY M96 teardown in real life.
Geez I wonder why that chain broke eh?
philooo - here's a shot of the tensioners that are out. There is a little galling but still lots of life in them. They will get replaced. Mileage is 130,000 kms or about 80,000 miles
Jasper - Sure, give me a buzz
Great job!! If I am not mistaken, the oil pump is driven by the intermidiate shaft using the same chain. So, if the oil pump is "stuck", the chain is exposed to excessive tension and break. It may be the chain weaken as well and started the whole chain reaction that cause the oil pump to fail....
Hi Sand8 - That's possibly it. There are actually three "oil pumps" - the major one you mention that drives off the end of the intermediate shaft and two oil extraction pumps that are at the end of each exhaust cam, driven by chains to the intermediate shaft. It was one of the extraction pumps that got jammed with a piece of chain which makes me think the chain was coming apart in stages. The chain still had to be somewhat intact in order to turn the pump and jam the piece. Nothing else is damaged (except the pump and some of the teeth on the intermediate shaft gear) which points to this being caused by a failed chain. I could not come up with another instance of this from my searches on this forum.
Oil pump drive goes into this end of the intermediate shaft (infamous bearing is at other end):
my 3.4 is at UFO Motor Sports in Long Beach, CA. Jason is one of the shop owners and he knows his stuff and is quite affordable in comparison to some others but with out sacraficing quality. My 3.4 should be back this comming week.
One of the forum members on 911UK has just experienced an engine failure with similar initial findings to yours billyboy. I.e. snapped chain and jammed oil pump. His is also a MkII and he has 58K on the clock.
This is the link for anyone that is interested.
http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t...er=asc&start=0
No worries, you guys are both in an unfortunate position, perhaps there might be something useful that comes out of you being in touch with infrasilver (Chris).
Sorry to hear about your situation by the way.
And if I might ask a dumb question here... what does the IMS do anyway? Does it only drive the oil pump on the front of the motor or does it have some other purpose such as supporting the timing chain as it runs up to the cam from the crank? And are there two timing chain assemblies... one on the front and one on the back?
Hey Trapp;
The primary function of the IMS is to drive the cams.
When the bearing fails, the shaft starts flopping around, the chains skip the sprockets, the valves hit the pistons.
A total catastrophe.
Hey Trapp;
The primary function of the IMS is to drive the cams.
When the bearing fails, the shaft starts flopping around, the chains skip the sprockets, the valves hit the pistons.
A total catastrophe.
But that's not what happened to Bill. In his case a chain broke. I can't remember if any valves hit pistons, but a much gentler failure anyway.
Bill.
I'm glad to hear you are going to be getting on with your rebuild soon. If you need any long distance help you know where I am.
I managed to recently finish my rebuild after having exactly the same issue with the chain snapping. I finished it few weeks ago after a 3 month period and only being able to work on it at weekends. After talking to you I have no doubt you will breeze through the rebuild. I found it fairly easy and I really enjoyed (most of the time) spent doing it. Yes there were days when I couldn't find the info I needed or struggled with something but I'm back on the road and enjoying my Targa again.
One tip I have is to make sure you lap the non bent valves in as three of mine were fine and sealed perfect with the valve spring on but when lapping them in I found they were very slightly bent. This would let the car run for quite a while without issue but the valve stem would fatigue over time resulting in the valve head possibly dropping into the bore with obvious catastrophic results.
Have you worked out the total extent of the damage?
Good luck with the rebuild.
Chris.
Hi Chris. Glad your rebuild went well and thanks for the support. My engine tear-down was fascinating and I'm looking forward to getting back into it again. The only damaged parts were the chain, the intermediate shaft (damaged gear teeth) and one oil extraction pump so not bad at all. I'll do tensioners, clutch etc. as well while it's all apart. But I will look at my valves - they seemed perfect ... but now I'll double check. Thanks.
Sounds like you're going to come out ahead Bill. A few dollars down perhaps, but richer for the experience.
If it's not too gauche to ask...how much do you think you are going to end up spending on this project - not including the clutch work?
Hopefully I can catch up with you again come the winter time. I hope I never have to go through this - but I sure like to see it happening.
Lucky SOB indeed. You're an inspiration to us all Bill. I will be very impressed when this project is complete.
As far as the sale goes... I threw it up one night on a bit of a lark. I really really like the car, but I got thinking about how I wanted another motorcycle, and a pickup truck and an old BMW project, and an air-cooled 911...the list goes on.
So I threw it up there at $32K which I think is pretty fair given the new clutch and flywheel and the coilovers and the sway bars and the RS motor mounts and the arctic silver on black....but I did not get a single hit on it. Not one.
It's probably the high mileage (200,000 km now) and the mods which don't appeal to a lot of *ahem* gentlemen Porsche owners.
I'm afraid it's my car forever, but life could be a lot worse. It runs like a champ, it handles and responds razor sharp, and I know a guy who can rebuild the motor for me if the chains break (
that's you - j/k)
Oh yeah - I hadn't driven the car for several months until just this weekend. I have been riding my BMW K75S full time until I ran into the back of a Honda Civic last weekend!
No kidding. I smoked her at about 20 mph, flew over the handlebars, landed on the roof of the car, rolled off and you know what - no injuries! OK, one thumb was twisted and the other hand was tingly for a few hours, but two days later I can't tell.
Bike is bent though...at least the fork tubes and front wheel are, and the fairing is trashed. That's my winter project. A set of used forks are on the way as we speak.
I hope I learned my lesson....A strong message has been delivered by who or whatever manages these things:
Pay the f&^ck attention where you are going when riding a bike! This time I bent your bike - Next time ...
Scary stuff.
Check the bike frame, really good. Usually when ypu bend the forks, the frame goes too. There is a way to pull it back but that requires a pulling jig that not too many bike shops have.
Maybe the valves got a pucker factor when the chain broke so the pistons couldn't hit them.
The big one that would make me think no piston to valve contact would be a weak clutch slipping when a piece of chain link jammed things before the falling apart chain link completely broke apart. Then with the jammed oil pump jamming the cam chain running off the crank stopped the crank also leaving the clutch slipping. Only thing that would make sense to me for you to get away with no contact.
Good deal if its an east fix.
Ouch! Sorry to hear that. Glad you are OK and hope the repairs are straightforward. You are a lucky man. I rode my bike all summer too, putting a lot of miles on the old Ducati; one of the reasons I've not been in the garage wrenching. The only bruise I got was a speeding
warning
...
Interesting you had no bites on your car. As of yesterday there were two other 2002 C2's around the same price locally with way less in the way of upgrades ... but maybe you are right about the gentlemen Porsche owners. Well, a nice car to get "stuck" with Jasper!
Bill
I would think the opposite. Doesn't the more miles you put on a Ducati correlate to more wrenching time on it? I kid... I had to take a jab, this is coming from an Aprilia owner.
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
