Wow - 996 3.6L replacement cost from Porsche!

As some of you who followed my recent bad gas/misfire posts know (now relegated to the "wishful thinking" category) I'm in need of a replacement 3.6L engine for my '02 C2, or a rebuild on the existing engine. In starting to work through my options I called both Suncoast and Sunset Porsche today to find out the current "deal" on remanufactured engines. I'm shocked and amazed at the response, which was identical between these two sources. They want $34,108 up front for a vanilla 3.6L rebuilt engine (more money than I paid for the car), and presumably with all of the inherent flaws of the original one. $16,168 is the net cost after a core credit of $17,940! It would appear that Porsche is_really_eager to have these blown engines returned given the $18K core charge. I asked about the process for the core credit and how long it takes. It sounds like Porsche would have my $18K as hostage for at least a month including shipping time for the core return, and I assume shipping both ways is additional cost and my expense. I was also told they tear down the core and examine it as part of their determination about the core charge refund, which means that getting my $18K back isn't a sure thing. Clearly I can strike this off my list of options because it's ludicrous, but I report it here just because I'm blown away by how customer-unfriendly Porsche is making this for all concerned. I get it that the amount of nuked M96 engines as a % of 996 sales is probably a lower figure than the internet flaming would imply (although I have had two dead ones so far in this car at 78K miles). But there is no shortage of bad publicity about these issues and it's an obvious sore spot in the Porsche community. It was in fact mentioned again in the YouTube Tanner Faust clip posted on this board earlier today. I don't expect Porsche to be giving away engines to replace the ones that are failing prematurely in the field, but they would go a long way toward healing some wounds by coming up with a reasonable replacement program. What they're doing now is just rubbing salt in the wound. Somewhere, Jake Raby must be smiling, not at misfortune like mine, but at the prospect of a large and growing customer base.

They want to sell 997's as certified pre-owned and new 991's not keep us 2nd or 3rd hand 996 owners happy. Let's face it reason most of us own a 996 is becasue a 991 was out of reach and those new car buyersa re who is making Porsche the most oney. Not saying I agree 100% but I think that is just the way it is. Good luck sorting it out.

Tiderace, have you or your mechanic pinpointed the engine problem/damages? If so, what happened to the engine? Are the cases in tact? I have some recent experience as I had to rebuild my motor last year. There are more options out there...

I have one maybe two 996 engines that I am parting with, no core required. EM to PO sent. Mike

these pricing will surely keep the 996 value right down...the drain. I personally could not drive my car if it was not under nw extended power train warranty. too scary. The engine cost is almost reasonable for porsche tax and all, but the core charge is insane considering they decide if you will get your money back or not. I mean what exactly is their incentive to give you your money back ? how would you argue they are wrong about their diagnostic. I assume you have to have blind trust in porsche... tough sell ! And talking about trying to sell new product, I don't think it helps to not backup your older products. that doesn't send the right message to future buyer I think. Why should they expect to be treated any better than us ?

These posts are why I have started a secret LN rebuild fund

"Why should they expect to be treated any better than us ?" because they paid $100k

Quotes source post: 9848534

The boroscope (sp?) photo image inside cylinder #1 shows a small piece of metal embedded in the cylinder head adjacent to one of the valves. Valves are all intact as was the plug for that cylinder so it's most likely a broken off piece of metal from a piston or ring. The piston is contacting this chunk of metal at TDC. The cases are fine. Oil was drained and filter opened up and there was no metal flakes or chunky bits. I was wondering if this was a self inflicted wound so I asked about what the DME had logged in terms of over rev's. There were several Type 1's, which I understand is essentially bumping into the rev limiter, and a few Type 2's which is supposedly slightly above redline but still in the no harm, no foul range. The Type 2's were recorded pretty far back in the engine hour run time history and are an unlikely contributing factor to a sudden engine failure. There were no Type 3, 4, 5 or 6 over rev's recorded.

Quotes source post: 9848904

But ya know what, even if they buy it new, once they are far enough out of warranty they are just as low on food chain as us.

Broken ring landing is more likely from detonation than over rev I would think. Maybe some bad fuel? Could it possibly be from someplace else and entered through open valve? I missed OPs original thread M

Take it apart and send cases to LN Engineering for 3.8 rebore and nikasil plating. Find a competent shop to rebuild when the cases and shiny forged pistons come back. Wait time could be 4-8 weeks. You don't want to waste time.

Quotes source post: 9849104

Presumably the ecu would retard timing before anything that catastrophic like that would happen. Maybe injector blockage and extreme lean condition?

Quotes source post: 9849075

those buyers will probably just sell it and sink another $100K (or more) in the next new thing

Quotes source post: 9849104

Interesting that you mention bad fuel and detonation as a possible cause since that was speculated in my original post. Fuel tank was nearly empty and I had just filled it 10 miles and 15 minutes of run time prior to the onset of misfire and then told calamity 30 seconds later.

Quotes source post: 9848323

IIRC from one of your posts in another thread, the engine was rebuilt at around 8K miles back. Have you approached the engine rebuilder to see if he offers any warranty/goodwill? The core charge thing I can understand the anxiety based on the amount of money involved -- it is a scary amount -- and from the uncertainty and cost involved. But I think I can see Porsche's point of view at least in this case. Given your car's engine was rebuilt it could be the rebuild is -- I hope I'm wrong -- a bad job and the engine is not only broken in a rather unusual manner: A chunk of metal from as yet an unknown location (but apparently not arising from a d-chunk failure) or part is visible via a borescope examination); but the engine may be unsuitable to serve as a core due to the quality of the rebuild. Porsche is not responsible for warranting, in some fashion -- via a core charge credit in this case -- an engine rebuild by crediting an owner of such an engine a core credit if the engine was not rebuilt properly and its failure has rendered the engine unsuitable to serve as a suitable core from which a viable remanufactured engine can be produced. Since Porsche is on the hook via a warranty (parts: 2 years, 24K miles) and labor: one year IIRC) when it supplies a remanufactured engine that is installed by one of its authorized dealers Porsche I'm sure wants to start out with as good as a core as possible. A rebuilt engine may not be that core. Anyhow, I hope it all works out for you in the end as best it can. You are without a doubt facing an unpleasant situation. Sincerely, Macster.

I hate to say it, but the reality is that forums (for any car) represent an extreme niche of ultimate worst case scenarios and *very often* lots of extremely critical details are "left out" This happened all the time with the GTR and with the E46. With the GTR tranny it is similar apocalyptic doomsaying about how the car is essentially rendered valueless, how there should be class actions, etc b/c of the "nightmare transmission". When you look though, the failure rate is *very low* statistically and at least *some percentage* of the failures are from folks who launched the hell out of the car. The 996 is up there in years now. Some of these cars are on their 9th owner and 3rd auction. Personally, I dont trust in the honesty of people at all (quite the opposite from my experience) and especially dont trust anything once the documented history is this lost. Should Porsche *really* be backing up engines that may have never had so much as an oil change in 10 years? How many documented cases of proven, original owner, *well maintained* engine failures have there actually been? On all of my cars I am always either the original owner, or the second owner and only buy when I see a documented history that is iron clad and low mileage for this reason. The most bullet proof design on earth cant survive years and years of neglect. If you buy a super high performance car with high miles and an unknown history, you are really rolling the dice. Im not saying there isnt something about certain aspects of the Porsche engine design that makes it a bit more fragile, but to expect Porsche to "make good" on cars that are *this far* off the reservation isnt reasonable IMO.

When you contemplate a new crate motor remember that the engine is complete that means a new alternator, AC compressor etc. I'm told they come with oil in them and are ready to run as soon as installed. This is a lot more than the usual short or long block.

AC is actually not included in a Porsche crate, though power steering pump and alternator/starter are, as well as the exhaust manifolds, injectors/coils, etc. It's much more than a long block, and AC is the only major component not included. Just as well, it's much easier to have the AC compressor stay with the car thus not having to evacuate/recharge the system when swapping an engine.

Quotes source post: 9849549

I never thought of that and always compared it to the $10k cost for a corvette engine, but you are right, there are plenty of new parts coming with it. Saves labor but man it adds to the price. In the end the most annoying part is the "core charge roulette". At least if they had a list of things the engine needed to pass / fail that would help. But putting $18k in the Porsche casino.. scary... Is it possible to send the engine for review before pulling the trigger ? shipping will be a bitch already but still less than losing $18k for nothing. What is the process exactly ?

If it's financially feasible, ship it to Jake Raby and have him do a 3.8 build. It will be done right, by the master himself. He stands by his work. That alone, is priceless. And uncommon. Plus, you will have a bullet-proof missile for years to come.

How much is Jake Raby charging for 3.8 conversion lately ? Now that you have a cylinder wall destroyed is definitely a good time for the 3.8 upgrade

I don't know the cost offhand. It ain't cheap, but you get what you pay for. He has the costs all laid out on his website: flat6innovations.com

BTW, anyone has a good borescope to recommend, I was checking some youtube video of engines and that is pretty cool I wonder if the cheapy ones at home depot work or if you need to invest $$ to have anything worth it

You've got to have the little camera head to fit into the spark plug hole for an M96. Been too long since I bought mine -- can't remember the size. Mike

Quotes source post: 9849766

They are kinda like TV's to me, the bigger the screen the better you are going to be able to identify what you are seeing. The SnapOns are nice.

Borescope: No affiliation, but... http://www.trait-tech.com/product/T-...on-camera.html

Quotes source post: 9849763

$18k is the starting point for one of Raby's reconstructions. No way I am giving Porsche that core charge and then wait and hope they might give it back to me. Jake is the way to go IMO.

I'm willing to bet there are a lot of good Porsche engine builders out there that might not have the exposure or internet savy to market themselves like some. I mean c'mon, a Porsche engine isn't a magical thing that only a few can work on. Sure the parts might cost a bit more(especially OEM if you even have a choice depending on part) and you might need some special tools but I'm willing to bet that there are a good portion of independents out there that have built quite a few Porsche engines that can do just as good of a job. It's just a matter of finding them and finding one that is fair and not willing to impose the famous Porsche tax on you. Of course, you can play it safe and go by internet reputation and pay the premium for a piece of mind. That would be an individual decision that varies by person. My $.02

I just searched e-bay and there are a bunch of rebuilt engines $7.5 to 10k. Obviously you'd want to do some research on who to use, buts its a whole better than $34k I would guess Porsche is saying they don't want to bother with older cars all the trouble they bring.

Every time I see one of these threads I can't help but wonder if Porsche still sells air cooled engines and how much they charge for those?

I want to reiterate that I personally believe the incidence of failure of these engines as a percentage of sales is low. Bad news travels fast, while years and years of reliable performance isn't something people start new posts about. I looked around at options to replace this car instead of spending more money on it and included in that search things like '02 and up Turbos, '06 and up 997's, any year GT3's, M3's, etc and came to the conclusion that my '02 C2 will still be an amazing performance car for the money even after I factor costs to replace the engine. As a kid, one of my cars was a '67 Chevelle SS with a big block 396. I blew it up twice, caught it on fire once, and every time it came back stronger and faster post rebuild. I'm looking at this project with the same eager anticipation. And there are plenty of under-marketed options out there for replacement engines. There are builders in SoCal that have good pedigrees and will put together a beefed up motor in the $10K to $12K range. A fellow forum member pinged me about an $8,500 M96 motor with under 5K miles, etc. I started this thread not to bash engine failures, but to report the current options and up front cost of replacing a motor with a factory rebuild. Many of the historical reports show costs from Porsche in the $10K to $15K range with core charges in the $3K to $5K range. I also ran into the occasional report of X51 motors at blowout prices (blowout might be a bad descriptor in a blown motor thread). Those conditions don't exist today, although it appears these programs with Porsche are somewhat fluid so who knows what will happen down the road. I'm still feeling very positive about my overall experience with this car and am looking forward to getting it back on the road.

Quotes source post: 9850723

+1 OP, You can get a rebuild with upgraded cylinders and pistons done for $10-13,000 depending on what parts you choose to replace or upgrade along the way. Do your homework and negotiate hourly rates before deciding on a shop.

Let's hope VW having a controlling stake in Porsche changes things up a bit in favor of improved older car support and service.

I don't think that's in VW's business plan at all...

Quotes source post: 9851202

Lol, I know, it was just simply naive wishful thinking at best. I was really hoping VW as a parent company would absorb some of the costs and be willing to minimize their profits in that dept to preserve the Porsche brand and reputation at the highest order since now they can pull from other areas to satisfy their earnings report for the shareholders....yeah right. But who am I kidding? I'll get off my crack pipe now... Edit: On a sidenote, I've been happy with BMW's support for their enthusiasts. How many other car manufacturers can you still buy 40 year old car parts still directly from the dealer.

I think it's the other way around. Porsche owns the controlling interest in VW. The story is outlined in CNBC's documentary "Fastbucks Porsche" It tells how Porsche made milliions in the financial markets and bought up VW shares.

Quotes source post: 9851411

Uh... I don't think you've kept up with the latest news.... And by saying "controlling" I was trying to be nice(more like 100%).

I am going through this painful, very frustrating motor rebuild process right now. I won't get into any debates about cost, the "porsche tax," exposure of dollars and the very high cost for relatively modest performance--seriously $18K and more for a sub 350-375 hp motor!--or whether all those dollars are worth it. I will say that I concluded that either a factory reman or the marquee rebuild were too much money for the market value of a '99, not to mention the "what if" the motor goes caplooy again, and you're out the money. BTW, the marquee rebuild does not include a warranty if you put your car on the track . . . So, firmly believing that a rebuild should not deprive the daughter of a college education, I contracted with one of those "SoCal" builders. As I said, very frustrating, very painful. And, no, it wasn't Motor Meister, though I begin to wonder . . . I really do not understand why more independents are not trumpeting good value rebuilds and then backing their business up with some basic competence and integrity. Why is that asking so much? I'll leave it here: if you are considering a "So Cal" builder, please feel free to pm me for details that may help you avoid some expensive headaches.

A guy could always installl one of these! Porsche 4.0 RSR Engine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zero Hours from our friends at PMNA. 4.0 RSR engine . RSR exhaust. RSR flywheel with Carbon Clutch and a bunch of other racing parts. The price is $90k. I could not get the pictures to load but I will post some pictures on the Orbitracing.com website in the Race Cars for Sale section. Please call with any questions [email removed] [phone removed] __________________ www.orbitracing.com Phone: [phone removed]

These prices and core charges are nothing new.. Been this way for over a year now, just wait till your core engine goes to Germany and get inspected and they tell you that they'll be keeping your core money! That happens frequently today, we field the calls. Looks like its time to raise my prices, I simply cannot have the Porsche engine cost less than my hand built substitute.. No wonder we have cars at the shop from 17 states and 3 Canadian Provinces. Been working too cheap! We saw this coming over a decade ago.. Back then the Porsche engine was 7-8k and our was 15k+ and we still sold more than we even wanted to build.

BTW- Charles from LN and I are currently finishing up the final 2,000 miles of a 7,000 mile excursion testing my next generation M96 engine. From Georgia to Edmonton AB Canada and back in 8 days and we didn't take te direct route. I am currently writing from the passenger seat from the middle of nowhere in Nebraska. Flawless performance all the way for the entire engine package. Hell, it even has the IMS Solution installed:-)

Starting to sound like an LS1 stuffed in the engine bay might not be a bad idea after all...

Dealership rebuilds are starting to look reasonable . . . Scary, huh!?

We really need to start a push for DIY rebuild support, even $10K rebuild on a $20K car makes very little economic sense.

Guys, this is not a new issue. I have owned many cars from the 70's 80's and 90's. An engine rebuild sometimes exceeded the value of the car, but was always a dubious expenditure. I rebuilt a 3.0 liter for about $9,000, less than 6 months later I sold the car for 14,000. Today if you crate or rebuild for 18,000, you could sell for 25K. Looks like very similar math to me, just more decimal points.

I totally concur. The heart of the Porsche has always been the engine and people that have grown up with the cars understand and accept that. The 996 has drawn a different crowd of ownership, many of which never owned an AirCooled Porsche and don't know what it's like to have no A/C or heat that smells like burned oil. These are the people who generally sell us the car when it breaks because they can't justify spending more on the engine than the car is worth. To those who buy our engines the car is something they love beyond economics and enough of those people exist to backlog us 8 months all the time. This is responsible for te fact that I have NEVER seen a car with our engine reconstruction be offered for sale. The first thing I tell anyone looking for prices on my engine is the fact that it makes zero sense to buy the engine if they don't intend to keep the car for the next two decades or beyond. In the old days we were installing 10k buck engines in 914s worth 4k. The same went for the 356 and earlier 911 before they started increasing in value. It's a Porsche, not a Honda an part of the problem is Porsche created a vehicle that has drawn a crowd that doesn't grasp what true Porsche ownership was about for the first 5 decades of the existence of the marque. My daily driver is not a modern Porsche, though I own a stable full of them. I choose an 88 Carrera with 260,000 miles and run the **** our of it.

Quotes source post: 9852734

I'm sooo disappointed I missed your class in Edmonton any chance you'll do another one in the future? sean

Quotes source post: 9854034

No, I won't be back in Canada till next summer when we have a class in Toronto. The class in Edmonton was one of our best ever and was sold out! You could alway attend my rebuild school at Flat 6 for hands on assembly.