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YOUR RESEARCHWhich is best: IMS by LN or a DOF? or cheapest?
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The biggest culprit is oil that never or rarely reaches operating temps.
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Just read some of the comments by respected Forum Contributors like JFP that have installed a wide variety of kits.
Replace every 75k miles or 6 years...whichever comes first
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....a redesigned single or dual row bearing with ceramic ***** that is to be replaced every 75k miles or 6 years...whichever comes first.
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Fact is we've ran IMS Solutions with missing oil hoses on purpose, and I have video proof of it.
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Hi all!
Hoping you can offer advice. I'm in the market for a 996 (1999 model probably). I may be replacing the IMS or installing a Direct Oil Feed system to feed the bearing (not sure which). Does anyone here have the pro's/con's of which way to go?
Also, I'm trying to price out which solution would be the cheapest to install/buy. Would the Labor for a DOF system be cheaper then the 3-4k ims replacement?
I'll be using this car as a daily and wanted to do autoX events as well as HPDE days with the PCA club. I'm not going crazy on track days, just for fun and will only be on street tires.
Thanks a bunch guys!
I put in the IMS Solution (its an oil fed system) and never looked back. After reviewing the options I opted to put something in that will outlast every other part of the car and forget about it. If you see one in person, you'll be sold. The machining/materials/fit/finish/etc are on another level - this part is like something you'd expect to see in a formula one car, or the space shuttle.
Cheap isn't always good, and good isn't always cheap.
How long do you plan to keep the car? I haven't read much up on the DOF system, but it's utilizing the current engine oil, and if it's a direct feed, I'd imagine that oil has to be sacrificed from another area (maybe if it's only marginal). Also, the IMSB is partially submerged in oil, so I'm not sure that directly feeding oil at it would change much, considering the LN solution doesn't utilize a direct feed system. I read in the past TunerRS claims the issue more on proper lubrication, but there is a lot of conflicting information to sift through, and you will get replys favorable to both sides.
With that being said, to me it makes sense to just do the solution and be done with it. Or even the standard kit ($800 parts?) has a 7 year warranty. The solution is lifetime. However, I believe the warranty is void when the car is used for track days.
Someone might have a better answer, but to me, it makes sense to go with the solution and move on.
I did the research on this last year and went with the IMS Solution based on a few factors:
- It uses technology / design that's been in place without issue for decades in the air-cooled and Mezger motors. Don't fix what isn't broken, plain bearings work.
- While I respect Pedro & the DOF work, I don't believe it adequately eliminates moving parts from the design. Simpler is better imo. The Solution truly is an elegant, simple design with a long history of success in other engines. All other bearings are wear parts in my opinion.
- I loathe intractable problems with tail risk. But I love the Carrera. In order to enjoy my Carrera I had to eliminate whatever tail risk I could, so I chose the Solution. I never worry about my IMS.. a rebuild may be needed for me next month or year, but I did what I could to set myself up for successful ownership.
Thanks a bunch guys for the advice so far. My apologies I should have given a bit more background. This will be a short ownership probably under 3yrs. I'm really just using this for short commuting (less than 5 miles) and the ability to go out for some fun track days on weekends. I'm not competitive and don't care if I'm last place. It's just a hobby while also learning how to do car control. Oil starvation I'm hoping won't be an issue at least for the first year. The only thing I did want to do was the IMS/RMS as I don't want to worry about it.
Absolutely correct, the cheapest solution is not the best. However I'm on a budget as most and I'm just looking for that extra insurance to help stave off a failure. I've seen some cars being advertised with a DOF installed and wondered if it's a cheaper solution to the problem. The LN Solution is way out of the price range. Also, I'm looking at cars that are around 80-120k mileage. I know there are many other issues with m96 to watch out for. Just trying to hit the largest problem first.
Its a complicated issue, engineering is many different tradeoffs including labor and parts costs.
It might be best if you do some research yourself and also tell us what kind of money you expect to spend on a car, engine mods, what mileage etc.
No simple answer for this question.
Short ownership means some of the LNE retrofits would be more economical (it won't be you buying a new retrofit in 5 years). Had my purchase been part of a short term plan, I wouldn't have put the money towards the Solution. Good luck whatever you choose & have fun.
You might shop for a car that had its IMSB replaced not too long ago and you'll be OK for the next years. Just make sure it did not have its bearing replaced just now; somebody might have run into trouble and decide to ditch the car. Also you might go and find one that has a good maintenance history with regular oil changes and leave that bearing in place.
Sigh... Yeah, I usually spend 10min warming up the car at idle before I go anywhere. Still it's a short distance however and it wouldn't be every morning as I'm able to take a bus or the Aston. Please don't kill my dream and make me get a m3 or worse yet a miata. Surely, with some preventive maintenance .5qt sump extension with baffles and rms/ims fit it should be reliable for some driving, no?
I am also a new potential 996 owner and have wondered this very same question. I am not sold on the LN bearing if it is recommended to replace it every 50,000 or so miles. To me that is not a solution. I'd probably feel safe replacing with a stock bearing every 50,000 miles. And for those of us that don't track our cars I would not expect having to replace the clutch every 50k to facilitate an IMS bearing replacement.
My thoughts are that the stock bearing fails from galling leading to excess heat and eventually failure. How do you prevent galling? More lubrication than the factory sealed in grease bearing. Am I wrong when I watch the so called "bathed in oil" bearing in action spinning off the oil that is supposed to be providing lubrication? If the oil is flung away from the bearing under higher RPMs then we are just back to a design that provides less lubrication than the stock bearing. Sure, using a ceramic bearing can reduce the heat but, IMHO you have not solved the problem of proper lubrication reaching the bearings. My feelings are the only way to provide proper lubrication to the bearing is by a direct oil feed method.
I personally like the TuneRS Motorsports design.
The DOF -if that is what you mean has been discredited unfortunately. Just read some of the comments by respected Forum Contributors like JFP that have installed a wide variety of kits.
I say this with both shame and regret because I fitted one before I knew the whole story.There is a lot to read/study on this subject There is far more that can be dismissed as uninformed opinion.I too was swayed by that.
Be careful not to mix metaphors.
There are 2 types of IMS offerings from LN
1) IMS
RETROFIT
....a redesigned single or dual row bearing with ceramic ***** that is to be replaced every 75k miles or 6 years...whichever comes first.
www.imsretrofit.com
2) the LN
"IMS SOLUTION"
....a permanently installed, oil fed, plain bearing that takes its oil from the oil pump via a line from an oil filter adaptor that is part of the kit. The adaptor allows you to use a standard spin on oil filter instead of the Porsche filter elements.
www.theimssolution.com
Option 1 is significantly less expensive than option 2. Option 1 is what the PO put on mine just before I bought it, otherwise, i woudl have gone for option 2.
Hmm. Not very nice to say. I'll be sure to report the response to the mods as I really don't find this helpful to the thread and pretty much poisons this helpful site. Please don't reply to the thread any further.
IMS bearing failure, like most classic engineering design fails is a multitude of factors, if there was a single factor it would have been figured out by now and rectified.
I believe the LN ceramic bearing mileage limit is 75k miles or 5 years, whichever is soonest.
Porsche washed its hands of the m96/m97 so I'm just happy we have plenty of aftermarket choices in the various weak spots of these engines.
Whew. Tough forum I guess. Sorry chaps. I'll just duck out. Thanks for the above replies all that helped with the original question. I'll probably lean towards going for the LN bearing it sounds like. Have a great day all. All the best.
Two shops recommended to me will only install the LN Pro. Both shops feared oil lines hanging below the car where a piece of road debris could knock it off. Unlikely but possible?
I ended up doing the LN Pro.
Anything is possible I suppose, but other than Jake's anecdote while the Solution was under development I've never heard of any of the options that add an oil line getting the line ripped off.
That you are apparently willing to spend the extra money for the Solution, but they are trying to talk you out of it tells me that these are not shops to work with. They obviously are not certified and clearly don't know as much as they want you to believe about the bearing options.
Let us know where you are and there may be someone with knowledge of your area that can suggest a better shop to talk to.
All the preventative maintenance will not prevent moisture buildup. Idling a car for 10 minutes heats up the coolant, the oil not so much. Until your oil reaches the magic 210F the condensation which builds up in every sump will remain and I doubt you need to be told what water in the oil can do to an engine.
Have you ever taken an oil cap off and see what looks like peanut butter? The biggest culprit is oil that never or rarely reaches operating temps. This can and will effect every car, not just the 996.
If I were shopping a car and found out the owner regularly took it on short trips like this, I would run away regardless of all other factors.
The "buy a Prius" comment is spot on, you need an expendable car for such jaunts, something electric is ideal. Save the 911 for track days or trips where you can and will get everything properly warmed up (we haven't even talked about the trans fluid yet).
Do like I did, get a '99 with solid service records and have a thorough PPI. Don't worry about IMS failure and drive the car. You'll be fine. And, as you have noticed, this is a snarky forum. Don't take it personally.
This. Until someone comes up with data to prove that an aftermarket bearing (any aftermarket bearing) is more reliable than the factory dual row, I would leave it alone.
Short trips are just not that good for these engines (any engines).
The 10 minute idle warm up is no antidote for short trips either.
(While I am a proponent of warming up the engine before driving away my "warm up" routine consists of lettng the cold engine idle only long enough the secondary air injection pump shuts down and the engine's cold idle speed drops to near its hot idle engine speed. I know from observation this is when the DME switches from open loop mode to closed loop mode and as a result fueling is more precise.)
With my then new 2002 Boxster an oil analysis at 4K miles prompted by curiosity helped by a very nearby truck stop shop with an oil analysis machine on site found the oil contained 7% water. That's nearly one half a quart of water in the oil.
This amount of water in the oil prompted me to monitor -- using an OBD2 code reader/data viewer -- the engine coolant temperature in real time and what I found is even during long trips -- 40 miles, 80 miles, even 150 miles -- at high way speeds in cold (mid-west cold) weather kept the engine coolant temperature low below 190F.
The engine oil got warmer if I spent some time driving in city stop and go conditions but where I lived/drove I seldom encountered these conditions.
As a counter measure what I did was instead of following the factory oil change schedule of 15K miles I elected to change the oil every 5K miles and to change the filter at the same time rather than the 30K miles the factory called for.
Since I could not prevent the oil from accumulating moisture and it was hard in the winter to get the engine and engine oil hot enough to boil the water out I elected to remove the water by removing the oil and replacing the oil with fresh oil.
With the engine now with over 313K miles I think my 5K mile oil/filter services have played a significant role in the engine's longevity.
While the deeper sump might be a benefit if you track the car the deeper sump would be a negative in that this would just increase the amount of oil to get hot.
I might add in this case what you should do is to be sure to show up at the track with fresh oil in the engine. While the engine oil will get hot and hot enough to boil out any water you don't want to subject the engine to track conditions with oil that is in *any* way sub-par even if the sub-par condition is only temporary.
That's the anecdote I mentioned.
As I recall it wasn't a planned "test", it just worked out that way and the bearing still looked good after 20 miles with no oil.
My opinion differs a bit. I have a 2001 Cab, and I do EVERYTHING in it. I commute, about 8 miles each direction, I haul inventory in it, I park it in a public garage. I drive it in the snow. A car has to perform as transportation for me to own it. After research, I bought this car with the understanding that it may blow up at some point. Price was right, and I have always wanted a Carrera. It has the LN single row retrofit IMS in it. Anyway, after 15 months, and 14000 miles, including some long road trips, she is still humming along. My mechanic gives everything a once over every oil change, and all is good. So at least for me, the mindset going in is key. I am always prepared for the day I may have to sell her as a roller. In the meantime, I plan to drive it, and have fun!
You park in public garages also? Rookie mistake. Someone told me if you park your 996 in a public garage it's prone to malice and premature ej...donation.
The IMS Solution has became the best selling product of the entire line over the past 18 months. It took 6 years for people to finally understand that simple= better. This year sales have skyrocketed for the Solution, and the others have stayed pretty close to the same, except the classic single row, which is now pretty much kaput. Hardly any distributors order them.
As far as what to use, well..... I'm a bit biased on that one. I know which ones have my DNA, so I stick with them :-)
BTW- If you call those copycat guys, they are going to give you a line about oil hoses failing, or some other BS. They know they are copycats, and haven't developed anything. I actually hold the Patent on one of their technologies. Fact is we've ran IMS Solutions with missing oil hoses on purpose, and I have video proof of it. Further, we have two rally cars running the IMS Solution, and neither of them have ripped off an oil hose. If anything these cars encounter that's significant enough to kill that hose, will also total the damn car.
They grasp at straws trying to find something bad to say about the Solution, and the oil hose BS is all they can come up with.
I'm also on a quest to find my perfect 996 or 997 childhood dream car. I'm taking my time researching and learning everything I can about this generation Carrera. Yes this is a tough crowd but the fact is everyone here is a Porsche enthusiast so we share a common bond (trying to think positive). This will be my daily driver with 10 - 15 mile round trip city commuting. One of the owner of a 996 I test drove said the best way to drive this car in the morning is start it up, take off but do not rev the engine high until the oil pressure gets down to normal operation between 1 and 2. Is this correct? Someone above mention it's bad for the engine to do 5 miles daily commute. Why is this the case and how long should this car be driven daily to keep the longevity?
It's bad for any engine to only do short drives on a regular basis and not get warmed up. That true for a Honda or a Porsche. As someone posted earlier it's about the oil warming up enough to burn off contaminants. Oil is the lifeblood of the engine.....it's especially important for the M96 to have clean oil.
I'm sure Jake can explain it far more effectively than I can
Oil pressure between 1-2? I hope you mean at idle once the engine is thoroughly warmed up. Oil viscosity affects this but on the road at 3000 rpm you should see around 4+ BAR
Short drive cycles keep the engine on cold- start, and just- started fuel too long. This is not good for the cylinders/ pistons/ rings, and also leads to fuel contaminated oil.
Unless an engine can become fully heat soaked, and the oil gets above 200F, for a few minutes at minimum, the impurities will not be burned from the oil. This is true with any car.
[/Quote]Fact is we've ran IMS Solutions with missing oil hoses on purpose, and I have video proof of it. Further, we have two rally cars running the IMS Solution, and neither of them have ripped off an oil hose. If anything these cars encounter that's significant enough to kill that hose, will also total the damn car.
They grasp at straws trying to find something bad to say about the Solution, and the oil hose BS is all they can come up with.[/QUOTE]
The two Porsche independent garages spoken with recommended your Pro product and said to stay away from DOF due to the hose. Guess they were wrong on the hose being an issue. Your Pro product is being installed now.
I have zero reports of any oil hose failing on an IMS Solution, or for that matter, even the oppositions "DOF".
We have a problem with shops properly educating themselves on these products. They often only want to install the product thats the easiest to be installed, as that nets them the fastest job completion time. This is promoted by the way that most shops pay their employees, from "commission" on jobs. This system promotes haste, and negligence, as a tech might only work a 40 hour week, yet he can get paid for 60+ "labor hours" by getting jobs done faster than the allowable time in the labor guides.
So, the act of having to install an oil hose takes time, which the Tech will bitch about. Don't think that the recommendations that someone receives are what's in the best interest of the car, or the owner.
All too often that damn clock compromises everything. In a real shop, you won't find a clock. No one needs to know what time it is until they are told to go home.
So, that was just general information... In your case the Single Row Pro made sense, but the oil hose should make ZERO difference in the decision of which product to use.
The hose is a non-issue and utter nonsense to worry about. IF by some chance you ran over something substantial enough to rip it off - AND it caught it just the right way despite it being shielded by the rear sway bar - YOU WOULD FEEL IT! It isn't some little vacuum line dangling off the bottom of your car. Its a stainless steel braided hose with metal fittings, tightly fastened to metal couplers - and tucked up BETWEEN the rear sway bar and the engine casing. It could probably support your bodyweight and not break loose. Now imagine that being ripped off the bottom of your car - it would feel and sound like hell.
In fact - I just looked at it and I don't think there is any possible way for it to be snagged or ripped off. Its virtually impossible. In order to get torn off you'd lose your rear sway bar, probably the front part of your engine case and the rear cross-member piece too. Meaning your car is probably rolling down the side of a cliff, or you've managed to run over a boulder.
Now lets say you're super oblivious and didn't notice that. It doesn't matter. The product has been tested with no oil supply and its fine. You're going to begin spray oil out immediately and will probably notice it the first time you park. But, even if you're a complete dolt and don't notice your shoes being covered in oil as you get into your car the next time - your car has a built in oil pressure gauge and oil pressure failure alarm.
Its fun to speculate endlessly about how something could fail, but in this case its just a waste of time. There are way too many systems in place, not to mention thousands of man hours of R&D and testing. It may feel unnatural for 996 owners, but its time to stop constantly worrying and just drive and enjoy your car.
So in lamens term, cold start in the morning, let it idle for few minutes then take off? I've read from a reputable source that initial warm up does not need to be long, as long as the engine gets soaked with oil then you're good to go. This is how I've been driving my Mercedes on short and long cycle drives. Now would the weather affect my method of driving? I live in TX BTW. Regarding the IMSB, if mine has not been installed, I will surely have it done. Which bearings will I go with? I haven't decided yet and will continue to do more research. Any valuable information I find and personal experience I've encountered, I will pass it on in this great community.
"Soaked" is an unusual term, but: as long as there is oil in the car, and the car shows oil pressure after it's started, you can drive it. If there were specific requirements, they would be in the manual. Start the car, check the gauges, check your mirrors, motor away. Don't go whanging off the rev limiter until temps are up.
Lots of stuff - coolant, oil, oxygen sensors, catalytic converters - on modern cars all works better when it's up to temp; if you're going to burn the gasoline anyway, you might as well be driving somewhere while you do it.
Weather would affect your routine if you live in a place where the car needs to be heated sufficiently before starting to prevent any other issues. The parts of East Texas I've lived in were cold enough to get snow in winter, but not so cold that I would have installed a block heater or I'd be freaking out about bore scoring.
I'm in Irving and know about Mayo Performance. I spoke with the owner there a few weeks ago and he will be doing my PPI. Had a long talk with him and seems like a nice guy who knows his Porsche. He quoted me 2700 to replace the IMSB (ceramic) which also includes the AOS, RMS and water pump. He said these last 3 items are a must do when I get this done. What I like about this place is they are strictly Porsche and nothing else.
A year ago I drove up from Austin and had them do IMS Solution, clutch, AOS and RMS - about $4500. Also, had them do a 6 month oil change in December. Great shop.
^This. Below is my install as a visual aid.
See how the IMSS steel braided line is hiding behind the rear subframe support, rear sway bar, and a metal coolant pipe?
Wow I forgot about the coolant pipe! If that ripped off your engine would be ruined much faster than if the solutions oil feed came off. Plus the coolant pipe is lower and less protected! I'm assuming it has never happened or I'm sure it would be the subject of endless debate.
Im jealous - your engine is immaculate.
Exactly. If you make impact enough to compromise the hose, then you'll need a new car, before you'll need a new engine.
That makes sense to anyone that has any sense.
Sorry to maybe rant, but what is this obsession about warming up an engine before you go??? Living in TX of all places. I always learned the best way to warm up is to drive your car, but keep the revs in check until the car is really warmed up. I drive it upto 2500-3000rpm. This way you not only warm up your engine but also your drive train.
OK, end of rant...
Volkert
Some cars have variable tachometers that start with a really low redline and gradually revert to the regular redline as the engine oil reaches operational temps. Alas, the 996 is not one of those cars.
This random PSA brought to you by Friday conference calls that are boring.
Get in
Check oil level.
Start the engine
Buckle up
Drive
Short shift and keep RPM under 3,000 until the coolant temperature is at least 160F
Load builds heat... Heat is required to get the engine off of the cold start, and just started fuel enrichments that are designed to work with secondary air to light off the catalytic converters.
Fuel is solvent. Enriching the engine with an over abundance of fuel is required to light off the cats for emissions compliance. That fuel is harmful to the engine, and results in fuel intrusion into the oil, as well as premature cylinder/ piston/ ring wear.
Fuel is evil, and as injectors age with the harmful effects of ethanol enriched fuels, we see the engines starting up even richer with fuel than ever. I have directly related bore scoring with injector deficiencies on 7 occasions over the last year. More on that in the SAE white paper that's being composed now. Its not for forum conversation.
Thanks. Makes total sense.
Luckily we don't have the ethanol crap here in Europe. To compensate that happiness, government doubles the price of fuel by taxation. Oh well....
Volkert
So... since this thread refuses to die... I've never tested the rev limiter when the engine is cold so I'll take your word for it.
That being said, I did do some logging with my Durametric when I first received it. I logged pedal position and throttle position and went for a drive from cold. Interestingly I found that pedal and throttle position didn't match. Once the engine warmed up, they seemed to. I wasn't looking for anything in particular so I didn't spend any time really thinking about it or doing additional logs/tests. But, that little run leads me to believe that when the engine is cold the ECU dials back throttle response to project the engine. Anyone else see similar results or know anything about it?
My take on the whole warming up prior to driving thing is this (and there are plenty of people that have much more knowledge than I do, but this is just my general speculation based on common sense)... Modern cars are designed to be driven normally - manufacturers assume that you're getting in, starting up and taking off. They design/test/design/test based on real world usage. This idea of starting the car once or twice a year, leaving it idle for 20 minutes and then driving is very different than normal use and not what the car was designed to do. That's why so many collectible and exotic cars have all these weird failures. Its because they're not being used the way they were intended to be used. Then the failures compound on one another and people start doing even more crazy and drastic things outside of normal use to try to prevent failure.
Think about it - during normal usage of a car the majority of the time its running its warm. Driven a few times a day, for varying durations. The majority of engine wear occurs immediately after startup because of lack of lubrication and all of the part tolerances are optimized for warmed up temps not cold.
Oh - and not buying a 911 because you have a short commute is foolish. My commute is like 5 minutes to the local Starbucks. Yet, I somehow manage to turn it into a 20 minute drive. One of the side effects of driving a fun and fast car - you don't always get their quickly because you find a longer route.
Slightly related bit of info:
I own one aircooled 911 that I have not finished the interior portion of yet... I could not drive it, but for a year I would start it up in the warehouse and pull it outside to move other vehicles around... It would only run at idle and low speed...
Earlier this year I finished it, and did an oil service... The fuel intrusion was 7%! We look for less than .5% in a good sample.
Keep in mind, that car holds almost 3 gallons of oil...
I think the original poster mention here that he starts his car and wait 10 minutes before he takes off. Apparently this is not the correct way to go about. I never knew this as I have embedded in my mind to always leave the car running at idle for a while on a cold start before you take off.
IMS Solution+ Jake Raby = drive as the car as designed. Simple.. and if someone argues against this as a fix then i would say that person 1 has zero proof and 2 is sore for missing the boat on it or hasnt found a way to make money from copying it. LOL.. if getting to Jakes shop is not an option then call him and he will give you guidance. Line under the car, Snagged???!!! You have already completely wrecked your car LOL
