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Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHTracking 996 in the rain
Reported or suspected cause
mostly grip (turn and brake) and not traction (accelerate)
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No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Reported cause · Original poster
The problem is mostly grip (turn and brake) and not traction (accelerate).
Leading evidence: 'mostly grip (turn and brake) and not traction (accelerate)' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'mostly grip (turn and brake) and not traction (accelerate)' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Replace driver seems like a good (but boring) idea' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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When I was racing in GT3 back in the late 80s, I ran a race on a day with a high chance of rain.
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To make the matters worse, Shenandoah track at Summit Point is used by the government for various agencies’ driver training programs so much so that the track surface has been polished like mirror and it was slipperier than any of us, including the instructors, has seen.
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By doing this, you will be dancing between the line of traction and slip, which is the whole goal of tracking when dry anyway - no difference.
Drove my 996 in the rain for the first time at the local track. THAT WAS HARD! I usually do 1.34 lap times at my local track with street tires and taking it *easy*, today in the rain I was doing 2.08.....and I went off! Twice!
I also have decent tires for the rain (Michelin Pilot super sports)
My car is a 99 so it doesn't have the PSM. I would think that this would knock of at least 10s. It's struggle to control my car once I loose control going over 80ish mph. Having a computer replacing a bad driver seems like a good (but boring) idea.
996s in the rain is not good for self confidence
I didn't mock around with tire pressure since I was going so slow, I usually have to let out 10psi between track and street.
Anyone else has experience tracking their 996s in the rain? Should mention that I am a beginner, probably only have ~50hours of track time in total.
My car also lacks PSM. The last time I took it on track in the rain - it was RAINING. I mean, hard. I was also on NT01's which don't have much grip in the rain. If (a big IF) you have the opportunity to run in the rain - do it. It's a great way to learn the car and learn how to find traction on the track.
That said - I remember the last time pretty well. We were on the 'out laps' behind the lead car and it was POURING and had standing water everywhere. This was also my first time on this particular track. We did a couple of laps to get oriented with the track before picking up speed - the car was playing 'slip and slide' everywhere. I got turned into T2 and started rolling on the gas - long story short, the back came around on me to the point where I couldn't save it. The car continued to rotate all the way around - all 360 degrees - before settling back down pointed in the right direction. I never came to a complete stop - just dropped into second and went on with the session.
The PSM is REALLY handy in the rain. I moved from a 997 with PSM to my 996 track car and it took some getting used to. If you can do it safely - running in the rain can be a ton of fun and a great way to build confidence.
So it was 100% intentional, good move to do a 360 on the first laps to set the bar.
Once I reach a certain "oh ****" I just let go, no point of trying to save it. It's Stuttgart driving the car, not me.
Will definitely practice more in the rain, my local track has a lot of run off so pretty safe to go off.
I drove a session at Mid Ohio in the rain. It was only my second time out (ever) so I was driving very conservative. It was surprising how much slicker the race track felt compared to the street. I also have pilot super sport tires and overall felt like the car handled very well. The instructor commented that he was surprised we weren't sliding more. I did see the PSM light blinking periodically, but there weren't any dramatic cuts of power or lurches from PSM brake correction. Again, I was driving super conservatively so I would imagine at higher speeds things would change quickly.
Mid Ohio is a special kind of slippery in the rain. Not a lot of fun, driving the rain-line and being all slow but at least the track is usually pretty clear.
I did 1 hpde in various amounts of wetness in the 996, it was more planted than a front engine/rear drive car at least
Maybe something is wrong with my car (or me), this is the data from the session from a lap:
AccelY is the G forces caused by turning, only ~0.5g. However I think the biggest thing is that the lack of PSM doesn't give you any confidence.
When I was racing in GT3 back in the late 80s, I ran a race on a day with a high chance of rain.
So far there had been several races that had run and the people on slicks had a huge advantage over those on rain tires.
I didn't have rain tires, so I ran on slicks.
The race started dry, but then we had a lot of rain fall suddenly just after I passed the pits.
One lap in heavy rain on 1980s technology racing slicks was enough for me.
It felt like driving on ice.
I drove straight onto the trailer and watched the rest of the races.
I went to an advanced class on driving in the rain, the wet line, and finding traction. The car can go the same speed in wet or dry - it�s just the braking and turning that gets ya.
My first ever HPDE was at Watkins Glen, in Upstate New York.
The first three sessions were dry, then it started to rain, pretty steady.
My car is a 2003 996 C2 Coupe, no PSM.
I had some issues on the interstate with the car in a couple rain storms previously.
My instructor was great, he asked if I wanted to go out in the rain, I told him I didn't think I had the (skill) confidence to be on track.
He said it was up to me, that I should look at it like an opportunity, but he did not pressure.
I thought what the heck, decades of driving on icey roads in the northeast, I can do this.
There were only a handful of novice (green group) cars that went out.
What I learned that weekend about driving on a wet surface has made me a much better driver, street and track.
Since that day, 1/3 of my HPDE days have been in the rain.
It takes a lap or two to get the feel back each time, I much prefer a dry track, but I learned to speed up that microprocessor between my ears to feel in my seat and through the steering wheel what those tires are doing, at least try to.
This is a picture of WOT out of turn 11 coming on front straight at Watkins Glen in the rain with wipers swinging.
The car has no grannies, so awareness, caution and outstanding instructions have kept me safe and on the pavement , at speeds I never thought possible .
Right, I did 1 full day of Mid Ohio in the rain with my new ML Sport Cup 2s. Fun, but super slow. When it was dry the next day, it was exhilarating. Also, '99 with no PSM.
I have been running with BMW CCA club and our chapter does skid pad training religiously, and it definitely helps. I generally enjoy driving in rain and as others stated, it is a great learning opportunity. In my e36, I can typically catch more powerful cars and have fun with them when in the other 2 tracks at Summit Point.
My first weekend out with my 996, it poured a bucket full the whole weekend. To make the matters worse, Shenandoah track at Summit Point is used by the government for various agencies’ driver training programs so much so that the track surface has been polished like mirror and it was slipperier than any of us, including the instructors, has seen. I typically drive with ASC/PSM off as I find them to be too slow to react and when I tried driving with it on, I wasn’t seeing much difference. Driving in that condition without driver’s aid helped me to get to know the car very quickly and I was feeling pretty comfortable the following month in dry condtiions. Putting power down was easy and felt great but turns were amazingly slow, or I was sideways. I highly recommend driving in the rain or participating in skid pad training, if possible. Just be sensible, if you are not used to it.
Last time I drove on a wet track was 3 years ago or so....I went off and crashed....nothing major and definitely shook me up but I don't drive on a wet track ever anymore. In fact since that incident I have not been the same on even a dry track. I am sure that its the best way to learn to drive but I am no longer tracking my times or anything....just having fun now.
Funny how an 'off track' that leads to a crash can stick with you like that. I still find myself approaching T10 at Sebring a bit less enthusiastically than I used to after my incident.
Question for the OP: did you stay away from the dry line (in the braking zones and corners)?
The rubber laid down on the track there gets as slippery as ice once wet so best to literally drive around it.
I agree. I went to a DE where we had to delay for 30 mins because the track was too wet. When the first group went out - the advanced/experienced group - 20 of the 50 cars went off the track. When it was my turn, I was fine, mostly because I was running all season tires, lol. The hard part is to go slower, lol. Nobody really wants to go slower
But...One technique I find useful I apply to the street and track alike: I test the tires when the conditions change. I try to break the tires loose if there�s some snow or ice or rain that presents itself to me. Or when starting off driving for the first time I�m the morning. I start on the straight bit just braking and using the throttle to the point of traction limit. That�s your baseline. I always moves from day to day, condition to condition. Then I take a couple of turns.
On the track, in the dry or rain, the first few laps, I make sure there�s nobody around me, I take the wrong line on purpose to try to get the car to slip around. You can�t see the car sliding - I�m not drifting - but I can feel it. If you can control the car and slip around a first few corners, then you know your baseline, go back to the racing line, and drive normally minus your baseline. You can either ramp up to meet your new baseline, or you can subtract your normal (dry) baseline from the new one by slowing down. Whatever is easiest for you.
By doing this, you will be dancing between the line of traction and slip, which is the whole goal of tracking when dry anyway - no difference. The difference is that rain requires more concentration because of the 20 things we have to think about, now we have to watch for water depth at each point/section of the track.
Mine are ��ultra� high performance all seasons,� lol. My lap record is 3:01 at Autobahn Full Track, about 14 seconds behind the lap record there for a similar car (996). So I�m 92% as fast as the record. On one hand, this could calculate at 9/10ths. On the other hand, I could have been dead last if everyone was on real track tires vs mine.
I bet I could close the gap in the rain a bit though, that�s one advantage, although rain performance with tires varies greatly among the same tire, class, and brand.
2nd this. I've driven tons of wet tracks and Mid-Ohio is unlike any other. Normally I have great fun in the rain and don't really mind it, but Mid-Ohio is so unreasonably slippery that you just have to tiptoe around and drive a ridiculous line to avoid the normal racing line, which is covered in ultra-slick sealer and rubber build-up. Fun for a few laps to figure it out, but pretty laborious after a while.
What track was this at? Based off the times you run I'm assuming Harris hill? If so I wouldn't sweat it that track wet is punishing if you don't know all the character.
Shawn
Same tire, AS3+. I agree, they are good. They might be the best AS tire ever made, considering tire tech has improved so much over the years. They are also pretty expensive, but you get what you pay for with these.
I also take an extra set of wheels to the track with Pilot Sports on them as rain tires. They work pretty decent in the rain. I use NT-01's in the dry.
I was a bike member for two or three years so you get really familiar with the character lol. I'm currently out of the country but plan to do a dual membership when I get back. I just did a PCA day there in the turbo and it was fun but I really wanna get my 3.4 swap boxster out there.
Shawn
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