Fixing Oil starvation problem 3.4 engine

As many of you may have known I had my 3.4 engine rebuilt and suffered a failure at the track soon after having the engine rebuilt. hence I had to rebuild the engine again. I obviously want to prevent this from happening again. I spun a rod bearing (#6) and it happened while I was accelerating on the track. Apparently I was victim of a common problem on the M96 engine. Oil Pressure was down after every lap and reached 2 at full acceleration. I should have stopped there in hind sight. Im running Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires and take the car to the limit. Sadly I think that I would have avoided this problem with a Deep Sump Kit. Yet Im not sure since PCA has articles saying oil starvation is not a problem on the M96 engine. I want to know for sure if the right remedy for this problem is installing a Deep sump kit, or if I should find a different solution. Please help me confirm! Thanks for your help as always!

Accusump 😀

FVD pan with baffle at the minimum! + fresh oil.

Hey Moe - first off good luck with the new rebuild. Someone in the 996 forum linked to a really good thread recently but I forget its name. It sounds like a 'fix' for the oiling issues, whether it be aeration, viscosity loss or low pressure. It seems a solution exists but is only available via special order with the racer/engineer that designed the system. Let me find the thread. Btw - probably want to use an oil that's designed for track use like XP9. You can get away with other oils, but it makes sense to me to use an oil designed for the use. Particularly given that oiling while under stressful operating conditions is a big source of blown engines. My oil can hit ~230F during uphill, low-speed canyon sections. potentially a big contribution to the m96 tracking community https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...mp-system.html

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PCA is the KoolAid drinking, cheerleading arm of Porsche. You really believe everything they say?

Lots of interesting explanation and experience here: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-pressure.html Even after reading all of that, I don't think a deep sump and additional or better baffling is a cure, but it may help. So far, I've learned that the oil pools in the heads and possibly foams so to prevent these or minimize these problems: 1) consider a deep sump and better baffles. 2). Use high temperature racing oil 3). Check that you pan sealant of choice doesn't react adversely with the oil 4). Consider going to the racing spec AOS. 5). Or just get a dry sump metzger engine Porsche...... and it's doubtful 1-4 are an actual fix, and 5 is a wee bit expensive.

From the previously linked thread:

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+1

I'd talk to JR and take his recomendations...

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What's been documented so far that I know of: - Use fresh ~XP9 on track day, change back to your street oil (fresh batch) after the session. If you have a dedicated track car, observe the mileage constraints on the XP9 and use UOAs to monitor hight temp zinc package depletion - doing so will help you determine an oil change interval that is appropriate - You can limit revs to ~6.5k to prevent unnecessary overheating of the engine oil - Run oil at half full on dipstick to prevent AOS ingestion & smoking - Install a standalone oil temp monitor & gauge for relatively little cost. Make sure you're not exceeding the limit of the oil in your You can also just read his web page that addresses the topic: http://www.flat6innovations.com/inde...owall=&start=1 a relevant excerpt: I apologize to Jake if posting this irritates him. Please understand the intent here is to refrain from making stuff up, guessing where others have actually done proper research, and zap these endless cycles of rumination about topics that have been clearly addressed in prior threads and articles. If this is a technical forum it should be perfectly acceptable and encouraged to compile, share and discuss the public inputs of more enlightened members. I'm a customer and a fan.. there is no intention to undermine or improperly attribute anything that can be construed as negative. We're all here to learn. And, thank you for your contributions. They are appreciated and followed.

# 3,6,10 above = excellent summary in my limited but happy experience. The strange thing is that when we discuss oil starvation/damage, some will dicker based on minimal knowledge or experience . At that stage the smart guys abandon the Thread.Hopefully the sceptics will not notice this helpful Thread. And good luck with the rebuild ! Hint - always a popular thread to post here -" My M96 Rebuild- take 2 ..."

These engines have problems with overloaded, overheated oil. This breeds the issues that appear to be G force rooted, when the G forces only push things over the edge. Failure of the #6 rod bearing comes from failure of the aft main bearing, as the oil that feeds #6 is delivered to it as waste oil from the aft main bearing. The oil is fed to the rod bearing primarily through centrifugal force. On the track use of the clutch up and down through the gearbox creates a ton of heat at the aft portion of the crankshaft. This heat is transferred to the main bearing journal closest to the flywheel, which is ironically the same main bearing thats delivering oil to the #6 rod bearing. This heat creates a condition where the oil shears. Once the oil shears, wear increases. When the aft main bearing begins to wear, foreign object debris from this wear is generated. Once the debris is generated, it is then force fed into the #6 rod bearing, creating a rod bearing failure, leading to a connecting rod bolt failure, and total engine loss. This is not new. I have seen it hundreds of times. This lands 50% of our work here, and I have been researching this since day #1. Use an oil proven to maintain viscosity at 300 degrees F. The only oils I have seen do this are Driven XP6,7 & 9, or Motul 300V. Nothing else. That said, the true "fix" for this comes in the form of altered running clearances for the components, to reduce the shear, as well as protective coatings to help gain some margin of error. Not sure if the F1 engine builder opened the clearances, or not- If I built it, they would have been.

Hi Jake - Curious if you've had any interaction with Chris Cervelli. In his thread linked above, he notes running 5,000 track hours on his dry sump system & finally overcoming a continuous cycle of on-track failures. From reading about the stellar track record of both your engines and his dry sump system, it sounds like there are two paths to get to the coveted 'reliably trackable' m96 platform. Combining the two seems like it could offer an incredibly robust system to both improve internal construction and ensure lubrication is less susceptible to the heating processes you note. From my perspective, there's enough gap between the GT3 & m96 markets to support such a combined system. Of course, a question like this underlines the wide gulf that exists between saying something and getting it done. Just curious if it's something you think about, or if you don't think it's necessary.

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Thanks for the help. I was using fresh Motul 8100 X-Cess oil. I dont get Joe Gibbs oil here but I can buy Motul 300V. So will a deep sump help? I was considering buying the LN Engineering kit. From what I can tell from reading the above it would benefit from using a deeper sump as well as Motul 300V.

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A larger volume always has a greater heat capacity. It just delays achieving whatever the critical temperature is. Again, I'm not certain in an engineering sense it's a cure. It may indeed work below certain, time, g force or rpm limits though.

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You have a lot of good advice here. One other point of reference is to look at what Spec 996 cars do to prevent oiling issues on track. The issues we have with the M96 are similar to what others (BMW, GM, etc...) experience with wet sump engines on track. The solutions we use are also similar and are reflected in the posts above and in what the Spec cars do. Your first priority should be follow Jake's advice and use a proper oil that can deal with the very high heat load we generate on track. Second priority should be to add volume and a more robust baffle (remember to extend the pickup tube if you add an extended oil pan). These are the two most common items (because they are easy and inexpensive) you will find in 996's with lots of relatively reliable track miles on them. Lastly, a wet sump system designed for the street will likely never reach the oiling reliability of a true dry sump system designed for motor sports use.

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One of the incidental benefits of having a deeper sump is that you can safely run the oil level a little lower than the maximum mark on the dip stick.You'll still have more oil to feed the pump than stock. It helps reduce the chance of oil overwhelming the AOS. Swamping the AOS with oil can be a serious problem. Others have covered this issue in previous Threads.

Until that greater volume of oil gets heat soaked.... Then, the oil becomes much harder to cool, and the engine. Usually the deep sump helps in 20-30 minute sessions, as the added volume of oil won't become heat soaked in this period of time. BUT we learned in endurance racing in 3-8 hour sessions that the added volume of oil needed more and more oil cooling. As far as dry sump goes, I have my own system that I utilize on Stage 4 and greater engines. Nothing for it is a shelf item, except the fittings and hoses. Its mostly overkill, and not necessary. Run a proper oil, keep it within it's formulated operating temperature, and you'll be fine.

Thanks - that means use-wise your application lines up 1 for 1 with Cervelli. Good to know, I'm not planning any endurance racing but I'd like to get some more DEs in during the next few years.

thanks jake. motul fluids rock. question - the lightweight flywheel issues that i've read about - perhaps problems are related to them being less of a heatsink (letting more heat into engine internals) and less about the addnl vibration they cause?

The aluminum construction of the LWFW is just another problem with it.. The aluminum soaks up even more clutch heat than the dual mass. The only Motul that I respect today is 300V. Its a great oil.

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That's pretty much why I stated it could alleviate symptoms without being an actual solution. I'm starting to think the actual solution is either a dry dump system or at least some changes to the factory Porsche oiling system like changing the way (routing) or increasing the scavenger pump capacity to get the oil back to the pan. I'm sure you know more about this though. The difficulties associated with boxer engines are all new to me. Looking forward to taking your classes next year actually. I love learning new things. Im leaning towards DT40 for my next oil change and maybe an x51 baffle and deeper sump soon to increase oil capacity and delay overheating which might be enough for HPDEs. It's still not a solution.

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Just remember that DT40 is not a race oil... It was never developed specifically for the track. It was not the goal for this formula. It's a long lasting street oil. Yes, HPDE requires a race oil...If you are wearing a helmet for the activities, then race oil is required.. That's my rule here... XP series oils will take the heat.... XP 5,7 & 9 are the go to oils for these engines on the track.

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Sounds like I need to increase my oil budget quite a bit or really buy in bulk. Good thing I'm going to pair down from 4 hobby cars to two.

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My indy put diesel oil in mine when he did the LN retrofit. I know how you feel about diesel oil from previous oil threads... Will be switching it out soon.