Darn. Someone let the cat out of the bag. Video on 996 prices increasing.

You Tube

I think the 996s are going up in value a little because there's a misunderstanding about these engines. The masses think the IMS bearing is the only issue with them. I've seen people say once the IMSB is replaced, the engine is bulletproof. Lol No, no it's not!! I bought the 996 for the same reason why I bought my C4 6-spd Vette. Least desired, but will become more desirable over time since most people want 993s and 997s. In the Corvette world, it's all about the C5, C6, and C7s. I've been getting more and more compliments on my C4 as time passes. I believe well-kept 996s will go up in value because there is always a group of people who like to be different. Have a 996 with a properly rebuilt engine and the car will be more valuable as more and more people realize the M96 has so many issues. I predict '99-'01 996s will be more sought after as time passes. I know most people don't know the heritage behind the headlights, but since they are so different, they get more desirable. The stigma of the 986 and 996s sharing front ends has passed, just like the stigma behind the first Gen Miata passed. Who would've thought a car bought by rich parents for their teen daughters would become so popular at track days!! Lol Time will tell! I'm just glad I bought my 996s at the bottom of the depreciation curve!

I predict more rollers to come...

"....Many examples out there have the maintenance done on the IMS bearing that makes it a non-issue". Oh - hell - no. FEW examples out there have had anything done to the IMS, and fewer of those have the permanent solution installed. It is a HUGE time bomb in all 996 M96 versions. I would(and did) reduce my buying price by at least $2000 due to no IMS work on any M96 engine.

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That's the only way I think people should buy a 996! The 996, to me, is a car that screams "do it right the first time or don't do it at all". Buy a nice roller and have it shipped to F6I for a rebuild. Sure, it costs more but you can at least enjoy it. Plus, you will recoup a lot of that back if it needs to be sold. I think it's actually cheaper to do it this way. Practically all of the major maintenance is done at once. Look at how many people have been posting about blown engines. Quick way to lose $10k+!

IMO the best thing that could happen to the 996 market is educated buyers that might lead to a wider price range between well maintained examples and unmaintained ones. When I was searching for a 996 Coupe (this whole discussion based on Carrera 2 trim) last year here in Atlanta, I saw two sets of examples: 1) Prices around $18K that were ragged out cosmetically. I pretty much assumed they were in horrible mechanical shape too. 2) Prices around $25K for ones that "appeared" to be clean. I eliminated all #1 examples pretty quickly. Now, I was left with #2 cars and really how do you tell a well maintained one from a poorly maintained one? One thing I know now, is that if the car has a legitimately installed IMS Solution, then it had to go through a prequalification process which means at the time the solution was installed, there was no visible bore scoring or other signs of impending engine failure. Without that assurance, then are you going to drop the sump cover during the PPI and check for debris and for bore scoring from under the pistons? But what if someone dropped the sump cover and removed the debris before you got there? For example, after I bought my car I dropped the cover and found one timing chain roller, BUT there were 2 missing when FSI got into it. So that means someone else removed one of the rollers from the sump along the way. Ultimately, right now the problem with the 996 is their engines are an achilles heel *AND* at the current prices, a solid replacement engine costs almost as much or more than the car, so a severely failed engine totals the car. So the best thing the market could do is adjust based on the seller's ability to document the state of the engine but something has got to give because those ragged out examples need to be selling closer to $10K and fully documented well maintained need to be selling for $35K. But that's not going to happen in the near future especially because the NA 996 prices will probably always be well below the turbos, because if the NA price gets too high, a buyer will just go pick up a turbo instead. There's also the greater fool issue where in someone will aways be sucked into paying too much for a bad example. I probably fall into that category. I bought mine with the plans to spend probably $6K in maintenance to get the IMSB and some other issues resolved. The reality ended up being more like $15K, so I will likely forever be upside down on this car but frankly I don't care because I bought the exact car I wanted to keep forever. I'm a steward of the things I own--I maintain them and improve them and that's what I will do with my 996. Some people are consumers--they buy something and let it wear out from lack of maintenance or improper use. I see the same thing with houses. The problem for stewards is that it is often hard to acquired poorly maintained items for what they are really worth because someone else will come along and pay more--unless you are at the right place at the right time, and someone is very desperate to sell. For example I know a guy that bought a 996 private party for around $5K, but he's in the car business and the seller mentioned the need to sell *because* my acquaintance is in the car business.

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...and your engine doesn't have to even be blown to for the costs to mount. Just keep in mind when pricing the roller, it isn't worth more than a couple thousand bucks without an engine or if the engine core isn't rebuildable due to catastrophic failure.

Are far as values go most of the 911s over they years have had some Achilles heel problem that required a complete rebuild if not caught in time. The IMSB is just another one of these. The early cars just wore out by 100K requiring a rebuild regardless of treatment. The 74-77 engines had the reactors and 7 blade fans which lead to head studs being pulled out. If the studs were not properly replaced it would require a rebuild of the engine. The 78-83 engines were actually pretty bullet proof, but still valve guides would wear out by 120K requiring the heads to be rebuilt. The 84-88 engines had valve problems that would lead to an engine rebuild, but those were not that common. The 993s had a variety of problems depending on year. Then the 2001-2004 cars have the weak IMSB followed by the bore scoring issues. Face it, these are high performance cars with cutting edge for the time engines that will wear out. Expecting them to be 300K mile Honda engines is pretty unrealistic. The fact that most of them make it to 150K on just regular maintenance is pretty amazing. However they are not 40K mile Ferrari engines either. If you buy a 20 year old Porsche and are shocked when you have to cough up 15-20K for an engine rebuild then maybe you should be looking at a different car. If I loose the engine in my Boxster or 911 I will pull it myself and let it sit until I either rebuild it or find a good replacement. I have daily driver cars to......well drive daily. As these things get older and enthusiasts and collectors start to buy them the days of them being daily driven will fade away. That will happen as the values begin to rise and you no longer want to endanger your investment so to speak. Facts are the styling is actually aging better than I expected it to, they are great performing cars that are as fast as most stuff sold today and they are Porsche 911s. They will go up in value, but probably not a lot for another 5 years or so. My 2 cents YMMV

Sadly, due to the bearing, and other engine issues(and headlights), the 996 has taken the place of the 928 as the poor step-child of the Porsche family. It's a spiral of neglect that we often tout on the 'craigslist find' thread. These cars start to trade lower, and lower, and lower with each defect in the example. The video seems to indicate that we have passed that nadir and are now on the way to a market where money/time is being expended to revive, or maintain examples to moderately decent standards. I think there is some amount of truth to that. Some part of the market is seeing the non-concours cars going to decent money, mostly because all the ratty examples are trading in the mid-teens. There seems to be a minor resurgence in the really soft market of 2015-ish. If I were to jump into the market again, I would find a semi-ratty example, and bargain the hell out of it, then slowly, and modestly clean up and fix up the warts. Hoping a complete respray can be avoided. But - that's just me. Plenty of buyers want a 'no excuses' car, and will pay for it. Yes, I do take the sump off, and yes I do look for bore scoring down there, and bits from the chain guides. A regular PPI will not do this, and mores the pity, all they want to focus on scuffs on the wheels and scratched leather, all of which the buyer can see with their own eyes.

Wow, lots of great comments on here. I'm "reviving" my 996, so if I die, please don't rip my wife off when she sells it! I'm at 10 months of ownership and I'm down to 3 items left from the PPI list of things to fix.

Oh my... oh my... This forum never stops amazing me...

Wishful thinking. Most mass produced Porsche ever made. Maybe a slight increase in really exceptional examples, but most are still depreciating. Doesn't mean they're not a good buy.

One of these videos pop up once a year. Nothing new. Although, I can see as more and more suffer engine failure and abandoned by owners... that'd eventually reduces inventories

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Jake told me dont call him back if 12 month wait and 40k scared me. Needless to say I didnt call him back. FlatSix is not the only shop around. But for a street build I thought Jakes call was, well Jake being Jake and out of line. My points is asked anyone that bought a roller and didnt do the work themselves what the real costs are. Its alot more than most, if not all figured.

40K$ - seriously?

There are 2 points the come to mind: 1. The only credential needed to publish and promote an opinion in the Internet is the ability to make a youtube video. 2. We won't have solid evidence on 996 prices until we see the springtime buying spree next year.

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I've seen you post this same thing many times already. Not sure what your situation was but I've spoken to FSI several times about a rebuild. They been nothing but helpful. I even asked them a few times not to waste any time with me if they were busy. They ALWAYS responded with a thorough email/phone call. They made it very clear to me that they simply love what they do, even if the person they are speaking to isn't likely to be a customer. Not sure where you got the $40k figure, but my proposal was in the $20's. Your story seems to have more to it than you're leading on. FSI is the only shop I would trust with my engine build. I'm a business owner myself and I get why their shop is so unique.

And the guy in the video was driving a Boxster? Kinda ironic........

Low mileage and now even mid mileage cars will go up slightly . It depends on a lot of factors. How clean the car is and documentation. Anybody who buys any Porsche to fix up is nuts to me. Maybe a ford or Honda...The cost to get a 18k 996 to a 25k 996's value would be 20k minimum. I would love another 968, they are all thrashed and its incredibly naive to think a car with parts prices like any Porsche can be much of a fixer upper. The 968's with asking prices around 12k would cost about another 12k to make nice with very difficult parts to find as well. My 996 has some uv fading and scratching on the interior.It would cost me a couple of grand easy to get that back up to my spec. The point is most Porsche people are meticulous and you should ALWAYS buy the best condition car you can afford. An example is all of the restored air cooled cars selling for less than half of the restoration cost. It really makes no sense. It only makes sense in those commercials for the auto parts stores where the greasy kid has a wrench and an ugly Jeep his uncle gave him and is trying to get the thing to start so he can go to school. Not in the Porsche world.

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Jake has, on RL board confirmed the poor VM he left me. No worries. He is a great mechanic and inventor. i Glad you are happy with your 20k+ or something engine and 12 mo wait. All good.

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Yeah, VM message kind blew me away. "If the 12 mo wait and 40K doesnt scare me off" call me back" I had a local shop build my engine. My only point is FlatSix not a simple build; time or money for most 996 owners.

The 996 911 is just a great car, even with the IMS voodoo. It's not even a terribly expensive fix for cars that retailed for 80-100k 20 years ago. I agree that after the 996 Porsches started getting bigger and more about luxury, great cars just different. I've said this before the 996 reminds me of my 95 M3, just very raw feeling, feels like a sports car.

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I was going to make the same point as you. There is more than one M96 rebuilder on the planet. However, I didn't want to get someone with panties wadded after me. When I was shopping seriously, I got a few engine quotes. For a rebuild with a good core case it ran from $14k up to $22k. I'm sure the $14 engine would be a lot of used parts. I'm sure the $22k engine is what I would likely buy, or somewhere in the middle of the two. If I got a roller for $8k, and dumped $20k in, with good IMSB, and some of the other issues addressed, I would be happy with just under $30k invested in a car I was keeping forever. But - being who I am, it's unlikely that I would keep it forever.

The 996 is not at the bottom of the curve yet. The 986 is at the bottom, but what is the difference? You can pick up a 986 for $5K that is a mess, but even the worst 996s are still in the 15K range. Why is that significant? Because for $5K you can pick up a 986 and part it out for more than what you paid for it. I am starting to see more and more Boxsters bought just to be taken apart. The 996 hasn’t quite hit that point yet, but it is close. When this happens a lot of cars will very quickly leave the market and the remaining ones will all seem to look better. It takes a couple years for this to happen and with the number of cars sold don’t expect to be turning big profits for 5-6 years. My personal prediction is the Boxster will actually turn the corner first and start going back up. Trying to find a very clean 97 boxster is getting very difficult at this point. Most of them are pretty abused. These will start to become increasingly harder to find until they start escalating in value. Once that happens then the S models will start to go up and at the point it costs the same to get a 986 or 996 the 996 will take off. Everyone will argue the 986 is just like a 944 or a 914 and will never be worth big money. That is not true for 2 reasons. First it looks like a 996 from the front. Second it has the same engine as the 996 (with less HP). The 944s were puffed up Audis and the 914 was also more VW than Porsche. If you want proof of my point try to buy a 914-6. They were never cheap like a 914 and currently are worth as much as any early 911. Why because they are more 911 than 914. Boxster is the same. Watch the Boxster values and you will know when the 996s will take off. The cars were made together and will forever be linked.

^^^ Can I borrow your crystal ball?

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I sorta get it. That engine could not have ended up being $40k but the reality is he might deal with a lot of tire kickers and just wants to weed people who aren't serious about plunking down a deposit right away. I am not saying its the right sales tactic but it's just how some people do it. I detail cars and I get a lot of "want my wife's minivan detailed." Okay (I don't really want these jobs), how bad is it, how many kids you got? Its probably gonna be $300, 99% of the time they don't respond or don't want to spend more than $100. People want me to spend a lot of time for $10 an hour when the reality is I a prefer to schedule the correction work for $50 an hour. Didn't he post the Haggerty graph showing an increase over the last 3 years?

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Man if I had a crystal ball I would use it for the stock market not cars. I am just judging this based on what happened to the early 911s in the last 10 years. History does tend to repeat itself.

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That price ws for what 996AE had quickly outlined for a project goal, and a quick response from me. Most of our builds are 24-27K these days, unless a failure is experienced. Yes, some builds top 40K. Not all, and not a majority, but some. I also try to be very up front with the ancillary costs as well, and typically factor in vehicle shipping costs both ways as well, even though they are not included, people still experience them. My goal is for no one to ever say �I didn�t expect it to cost this much�.I haven�t heard that in 18 years. My way may be too direct for some, but its the way I do things, and the way I will always do things. Change is not possible. My way may not be the modern way, but last time I checked the only real benefit of being in my position is doing things my way. Some people don�t agree, and that�s fine.There�s lots of builders out there that�ll kiss their tails, and do everything they expect just to gain their business. Most builders in this industry spend all their time traveling to events, playing politics. All that said, the 996 has been going up in value for the last 18 months. I saw it before anyone else.

I'm real happy I got my 996 when I did for what I did with the IMS serviced. I also got a smoking deal on HRE wheels from the forum. I'm in the middle of making it look how I want and a few other odds and ends. I can honestly see the car going to Flat 6 for a rebuild and reliability upgrade in a two to five year window as well. I doubt for that much money all in, I could have a car I enjoy as much. Honestly when you start looking at what parts cost and how much FSI stands behind their products, what all is involved, their pricing is pretty reasonable. It's just a sad state that Porsche parts cost a lot more than the domestic V8 stuff I grew up with. Jake can't fix that except by paying his employees less, which for the quality they deliver is absurd to ask.

And they’ve all been here for years, too.. My newest engine builder has now been here for 14 years, and everyone is paid well for what they do. Every year engines go up in price, as my costs increase. Every year we find something else that needs to be replaced, as the cars age, so we add that into the price.

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It was nice to get a small glimpse of the quality of the operation first hand. I�d love to see the shop next time I�m in the area.

I did ok with my foray into the 996 world. Had some fun, learned some stuff, made some money. I might do it again, but if so, it'll be the roller with a rebuild plan. The hard part comes in when one wants to sell a 996 for $30k in a $23k market. Gotta justify that extra scratch. That is where a 'signature' rebuild might come in handy. But - with the cost of the signature rebuild being what it is, and the time constraint being what it is, and the overhead involved in engine exchange, fluids, cleaning, brakes, detail, maybe some suspension repairs, the margin just goes away. In my theoretical 'roller rebuild' I've got maybe $28k all in. If I want a 10% on my money, I gotta advertise for $31k, and that blows the deal right there. We need cheaper rollers, or cheaper rebuilds. I'm not sure on the LS swap plan, and if there's a market for them. Maybe a real well done car.

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Sorry but I disagree. The 914-6 was/is rare in production and extremely hard to find . I see 914's cheap and good 986 with low miles under $9K all the time. There has definitely been an uptick in 996 prices this past 1.5 years.

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But why was the 914-6 desirable? The 924 Turbo was rare too, but nobody really wants those. Because it has a 911 engine, transmission, brakes and suspension on a 914 (which was still ugly). You got a 911 at a discount, but actually it was an overall better car. Boxster is the same. Drive a 996 and 986 back to back, you will be amazed at how much better the 986 feels. Yes the 911 is faster, but the Boxster handles better, sounds better, shifts better and in my opinion looks better. It is a better car than the 911 in a similar way the 914-6 was. I am not going to argue the uptick in 996 prices, but they will not �take off� until the 986 does at the same time. Neither will happen until a lot of them get dismantled and supply and demand kicks in.

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$40k for a FSI rebuild is - how you say? Fear mongering! Exactly what all the naysayers accuse Jake of doing. Firstly, they do several levels of re-builds - obviously there are cost differentials associated with each level. Depending on level of build you're looking for, and the "extra options" you choose, the costs range from around $20k - $30k. Could you push mid $30's to $40k if you asked them to do something crazy? I don't know - you'd have to ask them, but in my experience the costs do add up quickly - communication is the key to keeping costs in line, and I have to say that while it is expensive, none of the costs (for either parts or labor) are unfair/out of line. My cost was mid $20's and Jake gave me a bunch a credits for work that I had done the previous season (IMS Solution, Clutch etc...). ** I could have done the re-build myself, but after doing the full engine out thing just a year earlier (which I really sort of enjoyed) I decided to bite the bullet and spend the money (and save a lot of potential headaches and be sure everything was done the best way possible - with all the knowledge and experience of FSI - it really wasn't a difficult decision). I've just passed about 900 miles on the new engine and really couldn't be happier. The power and smoothness of the new 3.8l engine is intoxicating, and so much better than the stock 3.4l. Best of all is that I should never have to worry about this motor again, unless I do something really stupid. On top of that, these motors hold their value, and add to the low resale value of the stock cars. I'm still going to do a full critique of the entire experience of the re-build starting from my first conversation with FSI right through to the point when I write the critique. I'll pull no punches and I'll do a full listing of pro's and con's of the process

Yes, I can count on one hand how many M9X engines here have had an invoice of 40K+ with us. Most of these high value builds are 9a1 and aircooled builds. Hell, last year I built a 50K+ 4 cylinder aircooled engine, based from a 914 engine. Someone across the country who wants a top tier M9X engine could see a 40K overall expenditure, as 4-4,500 of the cost could be spent in vehicle transport alone. On top of that, there are customer chosen options that can also add into things. Like I said, I try to prepare potential purchasers of an overall worst case scenario for project costs, not just what my invoice is going to total. I hate hidden costs when I am purchasing something, and therefore try to remove these for the buyer. My overall goal is to make someone’s final invoice on the day that we start the process, and generate their invoice, which matched the proposed cost of the engine as outlined in my14 page document, that lacks any fine print. If the total changes, its because someone added a customer selected option, because the engine or car had some odd issue (that we documented) or because the engine was a total loss due to collateral damage from an epic failure that was not expected by anyone. In the case of the latter, the proposal outlines 8 major items that must be in serviceable condition for the reconstruction process. If these are not, then the price has to change. Again, these are called out on day #1. I hate change, and hate having to add costs. Both of these mean that I have to waste my time sitting in a damn office chair, on the phone. That is not where I belong, and not why I started this business. I look forward to this. Please include all of the insane challenges that we ran into with the fuel system in the car, and especially how we had to replace the cylinder heads after the last butcher got ahold of them, and the rest of the engine! That issue was a new one, and will add critical info to my classes in the future, as I am sure this issue will be experienced more and more as these cars age. Your build further changed the way things are done here, in regard to preparing purchasers for the challenges of an aging vehicle. Sub- systems of the vehicle are often confused with engine components, and it’s hard to convey all of what we may have to deal with up front. The engine build has to stop somewhere, and vehicle repairs have to start somewhere, but that line in the sand is very hard to draw, and harder to convey. I’m working on a video for all new purchasers that goes over this, and shows what we will do, and more importantly what we will not do, for the cost of the engine. Luckily I only have to get through the next 6 years of changes (aging) of these cars. Every single aspect of your process had some sort of hiccup, from inbound shipping, to finding truck space to get the car home. I don’t want you to pull punches, I want something I can share with each new prospect for our engine program, that will scare the pants off him, and run him away. Those that remain will understand exactly how bad it can be, what can happen, and maybe then a realistic expectation will be conveyed. After all that we did end up with a positive result, and we both stayed respected, and stayed dedicated to each other, and getting to the finish line with the project. It was never a possibility of throwing in the towel, and we never had any disagreements. Part of that is due to positive, constant communication, I believe.

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^^ Will do ^^

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A little confusion here. My build was a stock 3.2 Carrera bottom up build. Car was/is in great shape, needed top end, running great just no longer would pass CA SMOG test. So, I decided to do a full build. I was looking to set engine on a pallet and ship to FlatSix. I have several P cars and other toys, so time wasnt an issue ie. I didnt need it rushed just wanted a quality, stock spec 3.2 build. No criticism just pointing my experience with Jake. First and last. I wanted the best and was prepared to pay for it. But I like to respect the people I choose to do business with and my only interaction was less than respectful. So, I choose a different shop. We all know Jake is the best and he has done and continues to do great things for Porsche owners.

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Thanks for this clarification. I honestly didn�t remember, and since it was continually brought up here and on other water- cooled forums I guess I just let it go. Yes, anything aircooled starts at 35K, and that�s a stock rebuild/ restoration with no corners cut. 40K is very easy to spend for any aircooled performance engine here. One reason for this is simple, I build all the aircooled engines personally, and value my time accordingly.

just one question (I didnt have time to read all the posts in detail). Are you saying that an M96 engine rebuild is costing here close to 30K? Or are you talking about a whole car rebuild?

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Engine reconstruction, with all work related, to include extraction, and installation. 30k is the upper end for most builds, and usually the price is driven by a traumatic failure of the original engine. At the present the prices for most of my engines are: -Stage 1: 22.5- 24.5K -Stage 2: 25.5- 26.5K - Stage 3: 28.5K - R Series (R43 &R44) 4.3 and 4.4L builds 30K+ These constantly change, and rarely go down, only up. There are times where elective jobs can be less money, so these figures are not written in stone. Also consider there’s 17 engine designations in the M9X family, so the prices will vary based on designation, application, failure, options and etc. The only thing that stays the same is that everything constantly changes. Yes, you can Only those who love their car benefit from what we create.

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This caught my eye from some past experience. In 2006 the engine on my 911SC blew at 295K miles. The good news: the engine was never cracked open for any repairs before that; yes the 911SC engine can go a long time without needing any work. The estimates I was getting were in the $10K-$12k range for a full rebuild just for the engine work itself (not the R&R and ancillaries) and clearly Jake's price includes everything. And that was a long time ago and certainly prices have gone up. Realistically it also needed the interior redone (leather and carpet), and also new paint, shocks, sound system, Targa top repair, and on and on. These cars were going for $15-20K at the time, so I sold it as a roller for $4K. Oh well.........

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Back then what is 35k today, was around 15-18k, or so. Of course back then I had 3 employees dedicated to aircooled engines, and since I have cross- trained them all to M9X and the last aircooled builder transitioned straight to the 9a1 side of the house. He still does some aircooled work, but as the 9a1 gets more popular here, he does less of aircooled. I pretty much task him with the 4 cylinder aircooled engines, and keep the Mezger builds for myself. If you think an M9X is expensive for what you get, my 4 cylinder builds are 27-32k in general, and that�s for 200HP. The wait list for those is almost as long as the M9X, too.

I like the 996. To me, it's more of a driver's car than the 997. It just feels better to me. I and many other people would find an even newer 911 much too extravagant for our budgets. That much money invested wisely yields a significant monthly return. You can have so much more fun at an affordable price point with a 996, despite the aggravation. I love mine. I would not part with it for less than 30K. Its a fabulous car. I hope people come to appreciate it someday. But if they don't, I don't care. I'm never selling mine

yeah they just ain't worth diddly squat and won't ever be worth nothing mass produced same front end of the car as boxster cheap quality squeaks and rattles galore ims bearing blowing up every 2 seconds not air cooled headlights LOL wishful thinking though best of the best might go up a little but wont never be worth nothing for collector value like old real porsches

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At least troll in complete sentences and use punctuation. C�mon man..... I give you a solid F on this attempt.

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Why do you desire to troll our 996 forum? Your little diatribe spewed out in that sad run-on sentence above is about as disjointed as your self righteous logic. What, you tired of reading about another 944 heading for the landfill and so you got bored and decided to come over here and kick sand in our face to make your poor little 944 seem like the latest and greatest thing that rolled out of Stuttgart? Well sorry, we're closed to all "my 80s' 944 is a real Porsche" folk. We don't need anymore crazy. All stocked up. Have a nice day. We reopen in the morning.

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif

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I was going to give him a D- just because he spelled "diddly" correct.

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Good Lord. Take a 7th grade grammar course instead of sitting in your parents basement typing drivel on the internet.

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So it's better to spend $10K on a roller and $40K to build it instead of spending $30K for a sorted 996 and banking the $20K? Thrifty!

Here is a 02 996 cab that sold on BAT for $30,000 ,in comments there are a few people complaining their bid was not recognized .They say they were willing to up the bid by $3,000 or so.79k miles orig motor ,maybe the values are going up . https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...11-carrera-30/

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The points in this post make a lot of sense. I've seen it with each air-cooled 911 generation. I've owned at least one example of each. The process is this: 1) Progressively, the poorly-maintained/crap/junk cars get parted out, wrecked or otherwise lost, so the PROPORTION of nice cars in the total pool for that generation steadily increases. 2) Why? Because the enthusiasts maintain and preserve the nice ones. 3) Also, technical fixes for that generation's mechanical woes arise, making items like pulled head studs, blown air boxes, IMS etc etc etc moot. 4) And, add the rose-colored glasses/nostalgia that come with the passage of time. 5) Result: the pool is whittled down to mostly nice cars that people appreciate. The values go up. I think some variation of this will happen (or is already happening a bit) with the 996. The fact that they drive so nicely and feel so analog but with modern amenities and (yes!) reliability once you take care of #3 above altogether means the world will slowly take notice. Someone was saying they think 996s are still depreciating. I think that is only happening to the cars in step #1 above. It is their dying gasp.

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Wise words. Why would anyone do that to themselves? If my engine in my '00 996 blew, I'd probably buy a really nice, new-to-me 996 for around $20-25k. Or I'd find and install a donor stock engine (addressing IMS etc. during the install) for far less. But I do nearly all my own work, so maybe I have a different perspective than the "check-writing" 911 owner. Regardless, there's no universe (for me) in which paying >>$20k for any kind of work on a non-turbo 996 makes any sense at all, unless I ended up with the equivalent of a 996 Turbo engine or some similar performance increase.

I wonder if you get even close to what one puts in when getting a 25k rebuild? I would love extra power and reliability but can't wrap the head around the cost benefit. These cars are money pits few dig themselves out of. I would think this just makes the hole that much deeper. If your planning on keeping forever it makes sense. Flipping in a 3-5 years, not so sure. Thoughts? No doubt there is a cool factor when you say this works been done. Moves you up a notch in the 911 hierarchy for sure. Worth the cost? Depends on the driver. If it makes you happy, go for it. Pretty darn cool.

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These cars are not investments. Like any depreciating asset you can't expect to make money on one. Sometimes you have to pay if you want to play.

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Exactly. One other thing I'd point out is a flaw I see in these comments: "I'd never spend $X on an engine rebuild--I'd just buy another car for less than $X." That would work, assuming everything else is equal, but if you are a steward of your cars, the longer you own your car, the more straightened out it will be and the harder it will be to replace. Plus, who's to say how long the engine will last. "I'd never spend $X on an engine rebuild--I'd just buy a long block from Porsche" Problem here is you are buying an engine with the same inherent implementation flaws in it the first engine had (IMSB, timing chains built by lowest bidder, etc.). "I'd never spend $X on an engine rebuild--I'd just buy a engine out of another car". Same as Porsche long block issues, but also you are gambling on the unknown of how the engine was treated for the life of ownership. If those methodologies work for some of you, I'm not going to fault you. Those don't fit my strategy for ownership of my 996--I bought the exact speced car I wanted and I plan on keeping it forever.

Mine is for sale for $85,000 if anyone wants. Ok, thanks for reading.

Whoever said investments? I was only talking about getting soaked when selling. Just wondering how the resale impact will be effected. If I drop 25k and drive for 5 years, can I sell at a 15k premium over other 996's. I don't know the answer, I was looking for thoughts, that's it. "Pay to play" how much performance are we talking here? Play what? Is y head going to get whipped back like a Turbo. Aren't we now talking 996TT $ now,. I have no problem with people doing this, heck I might if I had the money. I applaud people that look long term and protect their cars. I'm the same way. Here is where my question came from. I know it's not exactly apples to apples but I just sold my 00 Box S. LN Retrofit, new clutch (clutch felt fine, while your in there thing), hardtop, sport seats and lots of other stuff. I got soaked. I recognize that people saw my car for 15k and said "hey, I can buy this one for 10-12k". I didn't care because I thought I was going to keep forever. Well 5 years later I decided I wanted a change. Looking back, I think I would have been better off financially just driving it at the initial cost of $11k . I likely would have still gotten 10k for it and only dropped $1k over the 5 years not the amount I am embarrassed to say. Don't think it would have changed the fun factor that car delivered. I am not judging, just asking.

You're not going to get a $15K premium. You might get a bump of some kind if the entire market was informed - but there vast majority of people just want a shiny thing; and even most "informed" consumers still know bupkus about the M96 issues. If I'm going to pay $15K more than other folks pay for a 996, it's not gonna be for a n/a model. Prices are just too cheap right now to pay a significant premium for a less-desirable model when more collectible 996's are out there...

My $4K roller cost the PO $24K in maintenance/repairs over his 8 year ownership...You see where this is going?

Ouch!

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Well, I kinda did? My post detailed the possibility of making money on the 'roller plus rebuild' plan, and it was an effort in Swiss cheese accounting. I have made money on a 996, and it is possible, but one needs to be willing to work for low wages and buy things at wholesale cost.

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Well spoken, er - written. I would guess about 75-85% of buyers see a 'for sale' sign on a 996, take it for a 15 min drive, and no PPI, drop coin. Then,,, 2 - 12 months later stumble across rennlist.

My bad, I thought you were implying I said that that. My bad, sorry about that.

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I think the answer is probably no. Particularly if you are looking to sell in 3 to 5 years.

Here's a data point. I bought my 04 cab last year on BAT for less than the PO spent on the Stage II engine that was in it. The car looked nice on line but I've had to put too much money in it fixing things with the car (not what F6I did, thar aspect has been all i hoped for) and gradually bringing it up to my level of **** expectations to ever hope to get the money back when selling. But, I didn't buy it as an investment, I bought it because I expect to drive it until DMV says I'm too old to drive. I'll let my heirs debate what I did with their inheritance.

Good lord! Some here are acting as if the 996 is an investment. It�s a car. It�s an awesome car but just a car. I got mine to drive it until I couldn�t or it WOULDN�T. I knew coming in that the motor could blow up tomorrow. I paid top dollar for a really sweet example. I could have gone low but I didn�t want to screw with the inevitable niggling problems. I�ll keep driving it daily when in FL and loving it. It�s had the bearing done but not by me. I intend to do the Solution in a couple years. If it blows before that or it doesn�t qualify, I�ll figure out what to do. As for ragging on Jake, he�s the top engine guy around. Don�t want to do business with him? Don�t. But he�s nice enough to come here and deal with our **** and is very patient, given the amount of business he has. I appreciate his input and patience. Bottom line, if I wanted an air cooled, I�d have one. And, I�d be afraid to drive it. I may see one or two SC�s/Carreras a week between Indy and Naples. I see the occasional 993 in Naples. Rarely in Indy. I see 996/997�s far more frequently. Driving it around town doesn�t make me lose sleep. TC

I just discovered a new 02 roller...Engine blew 3K miles after the IMSB was done along with some other work.

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This is coming from a 944 pilot, no less.

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Ohhhh, I would love to know the back story on this one. Is it me or is the waiting line for the 996 morgue extending far outside the entrance?

Even the best rebuild can be scuttled by a broken-off oil filter you don't notice, or a blown AOS diaphragm that ultimately hydrotweaks a rod, or the kid behind you who doesn't look up in time to realize the light turned red. I can't fathom putting tens of thousands into an engine for a car I don't have any connection to (someone else's roller) - but more power to those of you with deeper pockets and stronger 996 mojo than mine.

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I was watching that. That was crazy and quite an outlier from recent auctions. Quite a few people in the comments were also wondering WTF was going on. 18k-22k seems like a reasonable price for a car like this with potential engine problems. $30k is crazy considering there isn't much gap to jump to a 997 once you cross the 30k barrier. If you can get a clean 996 for $18k right now it's probably worth it just on speculation. Park it, ferchrissakes. If nutters are going to start paying $30k for this car, I'll happily take their money.