Help a moron keep an m96 running

Got a couple codes today for running rich on both banks. Cleaned the MAF sensor and have the stock airbox ready for install. I figured a short video may help flag anything I'm missing. Listening to this video it really sounds awful. Lifters toast? Or am I paranoid? Thanks youtube vid of idle sound

better video. You Tube

So to clear bank1/bank2 running rich codes I put the stock airbox back on and cleaned the MAF sensor. No dice, so my options are to replace MAF & fuel injectors, send it to a shop that likely has no fvcken clue what to do beyond draw from my checking account, or keep driving it until the piece of **** explodes.

A bit paranoid, I think. But understandable. Not clear to me what's going on. I don't hear lifters. There would be ticking sounds. And I didn't hear any ticking sounds. (I heard a hum. More on that below.) What are the codes? Is the DME at its rich limit? Or at its lean limit? If you disconnect the MAF at the wiring harness do the code still come back under the same circumstances? Ah, the hum. What is that hum? Is that the secondary air injection pump running? Or the engine compartment fan? Noisy idler/tensioner roller bearing? Water pump? What? If the engine's running rich, rich enough to throw codes, it will likely not run very well warm. Could even misfire, and flash the CEL. Cold the engine might run pretty good. Can you monitor the coolant temperature, intake air temperature? (An OBD2 code reader/data viewer can let you do this and in real time.) You need to diagnose the cause of the error codes. Post them here if you want and you'll get some help I'm sure.

Have you tried running it without the accessory belt (for just short while) this will help you to try and see if the whine is one of the components driven by that. Its super easy to remove. None of them should induce rich running though. As Macster suggests post the codes that will help the collective brain trust try and help you. Sounds like the SAI running on video 2? Funny thing is since I joined this forum, I seem to watch a video per week of an engine making funny noises!

thanks for the input Macster/MC18. The sharp sound in the 2nd video is the SAI on the left hand side of the engine bay, you can see me checking to see if that's what was making the sound. here are the error codes: I got this thing on the idea that I'll be spending some time doing this stuff long term so might as well grab something that will give me a clear explanation --> Bosch OBD 1050 Mobile Scan Diagnostics

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Good to hear on lifters - that is about as bad as the engine ever sounds. To get the real time codes - I'll see if I can get them on the Bosch reader I picked up today. Will report back.

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Or you can rent a fuel pressure gauge from your auto parts store and check the static and idle fuel pressure to determine if your fuel pressure regulator is shot.

The factory manual calls for checking the MAF voltage (0.9v~1.1v key ON engine OFF and ~1.4v during idle), followed by fuel pressure, evap purge valve, and fuel injectors. Since you have codes on both banks, probably it's unlikely the fuel injectors.

Guys Could it not be a maf fault making it run rich, seems odd all injectors have gone bad, no lifter noise that's the injectors working and normal, I would imagine the exhaust sensors picking up over fueling in the exhaust gases throwing the code??

Lot of good information here: http://repairpal.com/OBD-II-Code-P0172-and-P0175 I think your idea to start with the stock air box and clean your MAF is a good one. Maybe borrow a known good MAF for testing would help. Durametric would be a wise investment so you can read real time values, such as fuel trim and the values from the MAF and O2 sensors. From the repairpal - the first place to start is the MAF. I know they are an expensive part to just throw at the problem, but you would be eliminating one known cause of the codes by getting a new one.

My info on the two error codes: P0172 - Oxygen Sensing Adaptation, Idle Range, Bank 1 � Below Limit. P0175 - Oxygen Sensing Adaptation, Idle Range, Bank 2 � Below Limit. Possible fault cause: Incorrect signal from MAF sensor Fuel pressure too high Fuel injector leaking EVAP canister purge valve open Let's take these in order... There's the MAF at the top of the list. One "trick" is to clear the codes then disconnect the MAF at the wiring harness. Road test the car and see if the errors come back. Be aware the CEL might come on but the error code could be due to the MAF being disconnected and not the codes of interest. Anything done to the car/engine recently before the codes appeared? I'm thinking maybe a fuel pressure regulator is acting up, perhaps a hose is cracked and leaking and the fuel pressure regulator is allowing too much fuel pressure. In this case the DME would shorten the fuel injector pulse times but there's a limit and once that is reached, well, P0172/P0175 is what you get. Since both banks are generating trouble codes I'm not too hep on leaking injectors. This would require a leaking injector on both banks. While it is a possibility of course I tend to think in terms of a common failure (and fuel pressure is a common failure). Last but not least: Are there any pending codes? I am thinking maybe something related to the EVAP system?

Thanks all, I have a week of travel ahead for work so I'll be manning a high performance Element for a bit. I'll order a MAF from pelican so I can install next weekend. If that doesn't work, oxygen sensors and fuel regulator seem like the next steps. Here are the other scan results that came back ok:

Updated with a scan while running with the MAF disconnected. Proof positive the machines are watching us by the way, this is with the stock airbox on, fabspeed unit no longer on the car.

For MAF, please stay you best bet is Bosch and do not use any other brands. Amazon has the best deal $161 prime shipped (much cheaper than Pelican).

I feel like a broken record with the thank yous, thanks Ahsai $90 or so cheaper than Pelican! I'll buy it & report back with a new MAF. next focus will be O2 sensors and fuel regulator Cheers-

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Anytime! I never understand Pelican and why ppl buy from it. It's like 50% plus marked up on most parts. Btw, amazon is also great for anything Bosch. O2 sensors, alternators, starters, and other sensors. Not to mention it's great refund policy too. I bought a generic clutch kit alignment tool and it's too loose for my liking. Amazon sent me a return shipping label to return it. I got the refund right away after I dropped it off the post office.

Good stuff, I recently joined Prime so this is great news.

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Thanks for the input. I figured out how to use this app for data: MAF & trims. Car is running a bit shy of 900rpm idle, coolant nearing 80F.

A few charts between 900-1300 rpm with light throttle, stationary (car not moving) MAF & Fuel trim vals.

Warm idle fuel trim, oscillates around zero value. All values with stock airbox, MAF connected & waiting for new MAF. The real question here is if I can safely take her to Vegas or not. Bit of a cheeky question considering I can take my Honda and not risk the m96. But man I want to rip up the desert!

Can you take some reading AFTER the engine is fully warmed up and with a/c OFF? The normal idle should then be about 700rpm and MAF should read about 0.53~0.66lb/min. Your MAF may be over-reading the air flow. Not sure why your fuel trims are positive while the codes say too rich.

Here they are, engine warm, idle ~700 Both sides fuel trim range from +3 to -3, independently it seems. Apologies for this, but just realized the scanner can clear the codes so I cleared them prior to this start. No recurrence so far but it's only idling. Take it for an easy drive around the block to see if the codes recur? MAF now down around 0.5 and steady.

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These numbers look perfect but unfortunately by clearing the codes, the DME was also reset so all the fuel trims were reset to zero. It will take some driving for the fuel trims to adapt. Yeah, lets see if the codes come back. I think most likely they would after some driving.

Ok, 40 mile canyon drive & getting these values at idle. Summary: codes for rich on both banks came on with WOT, 2nd gear with fabspeed intake on. Codes now cleared, stock airbox now on, MAF cleaned with MAF-specific cleaner. No other changes to the car or intake beyond IPD plenum. Drives/sounds just fine between 0mph-4k rpms in 6th. 79,911 miles on the odometer.

Those numbers are perfect and you may have just fixed it by putting back the stock intake! The stock intake tube where the MAF inserts into is specially designed (mesh/grid inside) to smooth out the flow so the MAF could read the flow accurately. Not sure how the internal of the fabspeed counterpart looks like.

Thanks Ahsai. The inside of the fabspeed unit is nada, open pipes from the filters to the MAF and then throttle body. I'll update if anything changes.

Not the B2S2 numbers. Way low. S/B in the .6/.7 range.

First check after startup while still warm. Will post one after grabbing lunch.

Whilst burrito shopping in the drive through The 2nd on is a diff o2 sensor, Im seeing flutter in the value.

Is the app Android based or iOS based? Do you know if the fuel trims are short term or long term? Usually the OBDII could get both the long term and short term fuel trims.

It's android based. I just threw a cover on the car and am on the road for a week but I'll make sure to confirm long term values. The way i see data coning in off the ecu, it looks like spot (real time) values. Thinking I may have some old sensors that need replacing. Will try to tack smoothed o2 values when I get back. Thanks again guys & follow up next weekend.

Good to read you're ditching that fabspeed intake... All for their exhausts but the intake seems more trouble than its worth Hopefully you get it sorted

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I highly recommend the Torque Pro app ($5) then. It has the best diagnostic capability for an OBDII scanner and it has a great GUI.

+1,200 miles now on the stock intake. Had a coolant blowout after spirited freeway driving a few weeks back. Engine temps never went past the normal range close to the 180 mark. Engine was turned off before the low coolant light came on & I towed it home. Fast forward to tonight, part came in from Pelican so I replaced the main coolant pipe coming from the tank (one with the t joint noted in the FAQ thread). Car started up fine, idled normally and I let it idle for a few minutes to ensure that there wasn't another coolant leak I didn't see. Coolant level didn't move and no dripping so I took it around the block to recharge the battery. Upon first gear engagement (1st time from stop) it gave misfires and ran poorly. At idle or with light throttle in neutral it sounded fine, gentle purr as normal. Throttle application in gear produced immediate misfires until the speed/rpm stabilized, at which point it returned to running smoothly. Shortly after reaching normal running temp the CEL came on so I pulled over and ran codes. Random misfires pending on bank 1 (P0300) as well as Cyl1 (P0301) and Cyl2 (P0302). It's worth noting that the coolant blowout (geyser style) was above bank one on the driver's side of the engine bay. The t-joint where the piping failed produced an upward fountain of coolant that decorated the interior and left light pooling on bank 1. I saw it with a flashlight while looking for the leak and it looked as though it was a nominal amount of coolant that would simply burn off with a normal drive. Now I'm starting to think it fouled the FI system on bank 1. Another note: while pulled over to run codes I noticed liquid coming out of the bank 2 tailpipe on driver's side. Closer inspection showed it was coolant dripping on the top of the driver's side tailpipe and not from the exhaust (thank Jeebus!). So now I'm thinking I have potentially two issues: 1) corrupted bank one injectors and 2) a persistent coolant leak. RE: length of the car sitting.. she had 1/3 tank left when stored. I filled her up while checking codes to add some fresh gas. The car was able to cycle through 1st gear low rpms better than initially, but way too subjective for me to seriously consider gas as the culprit. I think the moving parts are ok, but fuel delivery seems fubar. Questions: - Any chance #2 is just leftover coolant from the geyser situation, and more coolant pooled on top of bank 1 than I realized? Any pockets or cavities that could hold 10-20oz of coolant that it outside the coolant system? I put about 1.3 gallons in prior to starting it & observed a modest drop from the top line to about a few mm below the full line after running for 30mins. No large drop in coolant level and the drip on bank 2 tailpipe seems inconclusive whether it's an active leak or residual from the blowout. - 2nd opinion on the fouled bank 1 injectors? For something like this I'll take it to a local shop that's in the LN network, but I want to understand what is coming down the pike repair wise. Appreciate any input & Ahsai-pm your address if you don't mind so I can send you a thank you gift. Cheers T edit: also broke my cell phone checking under the car for the source of the coolant! #JerryOfTheDay http://jerryoftheday.net/

Misfire- Some wiring connectors got soaked with coolant.Until thy dry off that may cause codes? It is so cramped in that area that trying to disconnect/clean/reconnect is difficult but worth trying. With Durametric you can switch on/off each injector .That may help dignose if the wiring to the injectors is really affected.

I thought KK was back when I saw this thread's title... How are your coil packs? New, or old and cracked? Wet cracked coil pack(s) = no spark = unburned fuel in the exhaust = richness @ the O2 sensor...

I found the problem. Notice the MIL in your picture. YOU HAVE LOW BLINKER FLUID!!! bwahahaha!

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I'll need to dig out my last major service in June, but all new plugs were put in at 74k (now 81k), but I'm not sure how much was replaced. Through the left rear wheelwell I can see "74k" noted on the black inlet.

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Excellent, ty for the input . If I can at least get a bead on the issue I'll be happy. Update as well, checked the coolant level this AM and she's on the lower 1/2 of the tank so clearly an ongoing issue in the system. Reading old threads it seems like the expansion tank is a likely culprit given the location of the drip (left rear tailpipe). I may buy a new tank on Pelican & hand the car over with a few parts I know it needs.

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Coil packs and plugs are completely different parts; new plugs can go in without replacing the coil packs. It's the coil packs that cracked with time and heat cycling and become sensitive to getting wet.

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Thanks for the clarification, getting a good idea of what I'm looking at. Given the pattern around here of shooting star ownership, I'm feeling lucky with the current scope of the issue.

Hey Tony, as others said, coils are strong suspects. Glad I helped and really no need to send me any gift but I appreciate the thought! If you really want, just donate some money to your favorite charity for me.

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Thanks Ahsai, will do. Habitat for Humanity just got a bump .

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Saint Ahsai, You're a good man!

Are you my intermountain west doppelganger? I just got back from a week of business travel to a leaky coolant expansion tank and am stuck driving an element until its fixed. I pick up my new tank from Pelican in a little bit. If you get a flat tire soon, I'm flying over and taking you out. There can only be one.

Clarification: Taking him out as in "*click* *BANG*" or as in "Wow, you look beautiful tonight..." It's not my place to judge...just curious.

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Having it towed first thing next week to the local shop that's in the LN network in SLC. Will post a pic when she's out of surgery Thanks again for the help. Also, the coil packs are all fresh as of June/7k miles ago. Drying may do the trick. heh, great minds think alike! No joking, I've been working on taking lines better in the element and she can outpace much higher powered SUVs in the twisties. With a durability oriented, de-tuned 1.6L I-4 the element is just as special but in vastly different ways. So far it has kept up with my friends 4runners/diesel trucks in the forest service land the last few summers. And it has a 4x5 bed in back with a platform for family weekends. Love the E If you're in SLC feel free to PM sometime. There's a good group of car nuts around here that keep a low profile & enjoy the bounty of local roads.

She's off to the hospital today to remove the coolant geyser feature, check the coil packs & install some lowering springs. Looking forward to getting back on the road, will let you guys know what comes of this episode.

should get her back tomorrow new: - coil packs all around (originals still in place, my mistake) - plugs - may need a solenoid/variocam actuator but not sure yet. We'll see if the first two clean up the misfires Compression test was uniform across all cylinders, so that's better than not.

Coil packs & plugs did the trick. Now back to play in the wild with 'er brothers. Springs, spacers & motor mounts pending - need to get a plan together with the shop & order everything. I love this car

Glad it's something simple. Happy motoring!

ty - same to you & the project Note: Recommend Morris Brothers Motorsports in SLC. One of the owners has a 996 & they did a good job on my coolant leak-turned-fried coil pack situation.

Fast forward a few months & I decided to replace the starter motor & battery cable that produced infrequent hard starts and an occasional starter motor squeal. All went well until I realized the three-way vacuum line only had two lines feeding into it. Easy enough fix, so I went back in & removed the alternator/plenum/t-b. After finding the stray vacuum line it easily reconnected to the Y-joint. The connection is stable but easy to pull out, so I'm not sure if the seal is broken on the particular spot or if there's a seal/joint broken towards the back of bank 1. Code is P0507, rpm sits between 1100-1300. The car drives fine but I'm limiting miles until this is cleared up. Questions for you guys: 1- Is this something that should completely ground the car, or is it something I can fix over the next few weeks with casual use? I'm planning to take out the t-b/plenum/alternator & whatever else is needed to vet the integrity of the vacuum system from the vacuum reservoir forward. 2 - Any tips on shoring up the 360mm --> Y-fitting connection? Rubber gasket or any type of adhesive appropriate for this spot? thanks to Ahsai for the diagram below, cross-posting from another thread. My issue at first was the 360mm hose. It's now connected, but I still hear a faint whistle of a vacuum leak. Too quiet to hear inside the car, but it's apparent when standing towards the rear of the car. Ideally it's just a matter of securing the 360mm piece to the Y-fitting with some type of adhesive or rubber gasket.

No glue or gaskets needed. If the line feels loose on the rubber Y connector, the Y connector needs to be replaced. It's a good idea to replace the lines the same time when you have everything apart. Don't think you want to drive the car for too long with a vacuum leak like that. I guess a couple of days maybe ok.

Thanks - over to Pelican I go

Ok issue is fixed. Classic moron problem. Metal housing on the changeover valve bracket was inside, instead of outside, the connection for the purge valve.. it's now idling properly with no unwanted vacuuming in the engine bay. Official ruling: P0507 - may be caused by an idiot in close proximity to induction system

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Glad I'm not the only one who does these kinds of things!

Dudes and duderinos, I have solved the hot start issue & starter motor squeal with a new y-cable & starter motor. The lone issue I'm having with starting is pretty rare and seems to happen under similar circumstances as the hot start latency only very rarely (1x every 20 or so starts, never on the first start of the day). My thinking is to replace the fuel pressure regulator, and this part came up during my search. Any suggestions appreciated, assuming they don't include insults directed at my mother. Cheers http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/pa...0-280-160-575/

The fuel pressure is pretty easy to check and most auto parts stores will rent you the gauge for free. Should you check it before replacing that part? Then you can check fuel pressure and delivery volume per the manual.

Good point - time to head over to O'Reilly & verify. They know me well The thing holding me back from doing this before is the sporadic nature of the problem. It's only taking place under certain circumstances and I haven't quite pinned down the cause.