Is the 996 really a $30k car?

Hi all. First post. I've been lurking and reading about the 996 and possibly buying one as a second fun car. Despite the asking prices in the mid to high teens and even into the 20's it seems to be a good idea to plan ahead and have $10-15k in reserve for engine troubles. What I mean is cracked head, deteriorated timing chain guides, and scored cylinders. I don't read very many posts about bad IMS bearings at all and yet that seems to be the main concern by some. Even though I'd call this a second car I would probably drive it as much as possible. Thanks for your comments.

Welcome. Buyers set prices, not sellers. The 996 is a $30k car, wrapped with $15k warning sticker. First thing, when they go, they go catastrophically and not just nibbling you $1-2k at a time. Sure, there are issues that can be solved with a grand, but the main failures you mention are between $4k and $15k at an indy shop rate. The last cracked head job I heard of came out to about $3700 all-in(non-DIY). If you could find a rebuilt long block engine for $15k, that might be true, but mostly you'll be well over that if the engine goes tango uniform. Hence, the number of roller chassis avail for dirt cheap.

The same year 996 can run you from as little as $15k to as much as $35k depending on mileage, condition and service history. Beware of that $15k bargain and that $35k creampuff with 15k miles may not be a great value either. I personally would look to a MKII (2002-2004) with a good service history with zero issues and moderate mileage (50k to 80k miles) Probably be able to pick one up between $22-$25k. In the long run the real cheap ones rarely turn out to be cheap in the long run.

a "healthy" 996 with all known issues sorted out + excellent shape (in and out) and mileage (under 100K miles) can/may fetch $30K..specially in a "more expensive" market like Southern California

I have been in the 911 ownership game for 30 years now. Like any 911, you can't "generalize" the 996 at a certain price point. There are way too many variables. Between models, options, mileage, and condition make a huge difference in price. It's a high-performance car with high-performance car problems like any other performance car out there as they all have their own individual issues. The 996/997, do the IMS Solution when it's time and move on and forget about it. Yes, you can find high mileage beaters out there for just under $20k but you get what you pay for. A clean low mileage high optioned car and you will pay up for it and it will be north of $35K. The 996 is at the bottom of its depretiation curve and only going up. This is the time you want to buy into the family at what ever level 996 you can afford. The air cooled 911's are maxed out and at the worst time to buy. I just played the 911 investment game and won considerably. Now I am buying into the 996/997 as one of the best modern 911's to invest in from the standpoint that it's hit its low mark and super clean low mileage ones will be hard to find as the years go on. Consider all new 911's have turbos in them for pollution control so normally aspirated cars will become considerably more desirable in the next few years.

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I got my "beater" for $16.5k. 63,000 miles.

^^ Ditto. My 'beater' was $16k too. 99 with M030 sport pgk, 220 Locking diff, 222 limited slip, 224 active brake, aero, turbo twist wheels, and some other goodies. 78k miles. I drive it hard, and maintain it myself.

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You did well. I purchased my first 1980 911 with 80k on the clock for $14k back in the mid 80's. Fast forward 25 years on what you paid for your 996 and you will think you stole it for that price.

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Much agreed. Mike

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Hopefully still be driving it then, too!

PLANT

Yes, the 996 is really a $30k car. Some way, some how, you will probably end up spending close to that on one. You might get a decent driver for less but probably not significantly less. That $15k 996 is going to need (in most cases) thousands of dollars in maintenance or repairs to get back to running, driving, and performing like a modern Porsche 911 should. The 996 is also the BEST deal on a Porsche 911 on planet earth. I hear they cost 50% less on Mars but the shipping is a deal breaker. If you want a Porsche 911 there is no way you can do better than a 996 (dollar for dollar) compared to any other generation.

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You should be able to, its a 911 and will still be looking cool. I think the 996 has just the right amount of modern features to make it livable but no over the top techy to make the interior ever look dated.

From my perspective, the current market prices take the risks of buying a 996 into consideration. 1. Controversial front end design. 2. First water cooled 911. 3. IMS/RMS/etc. Do some research on the 993, 964 and older 911s and you'll find that each model had its own set of problems. Unfortunately, save the Camrys and Accords of this world, that's true of most cars; especially performance oriented ones. I'm not diminishing the risk of IMS failure. The fact is, if it goes, it's catastrophic. There's no sugarcoating the risk. That said, the failure rate is largely overblown on the forums. There were more 996es sold than any other previous model of 911. Also, remember that the 996's engine could be found in similar era Boxsters! The vast, vast majority of those cars are running on their original IMS bearings without issue. In fact, according to the IMS settlement, 92% of cars. The best thing you can do is to find the best car you can afford, get a PPI (which won't warn you of an IMS failure but might catch other problems) and consider an IMS replacement; especially if/when your car is going in for a new clutch. Personally, based on a number of the threads I've read, despite popular opinion on this and other boards, I'm not even sure I'd buy a car with its IMS already replaced unless I knew the shop was certified or is well respected among the Porsche community. Note that well respected and well respected among Porsche owners is very different. There are plenty of great shops who don't know the first thing about these cars and will screw up an IMS swap. I've read too many posts about replacements gone wrong, shops not knowing what they're doing, etc. Also, keep in mind that the OEM IMS was intended to be a lifetime part. The replacement bearing is intended to be replaced every...what...40K miles? So, if you do buy a car with a replacement bearing, it's essential to know how many miles were on the car when it was replaced and then plan on replacing it at some point down the line. Cared for properly, base 996 Carreras offer the best bang for the buck of any 911 today. The 997 shares a great deal of its parts with the 996 and I've been told that even the 991 still shares some DNA with the 996. IMHO, the 996 is the most undervalued 911 on the market; dogged largely by the fact that it wasn't air cooled and shared its front end with the Boxster. Setting aside aesthetics (which are subjective), it's more comfortable, lighter, faster, quicker and better than the 993 in every single way. Drive one and you'll see. -Eric

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This is a point I mention all too often and usually get grumped at, but: This comment is likely still currently accurate: The "affected" cars are MY 2001-2005; the data included for cars outside this range was minimal, and the "8%" number for affected cars may have been accurate at the point in time when the data was compiled. The point: The ratio of "good" cars to "bad" cars is probably no longer 92 to 8, since no more 996's have been made yet more IMS bearings have failed in the intervening years. To make this perfectly clear: I do not disagree with Eric's comments about the IMSB...I just disagree with the ongoing practice of considering vague, outdated numbers as factual data for judging whether or not your car is going to take a crap - and considering the IMSB as the single biggest factor in whether your car will take a crap. In my entirely unscientific and unsubstantiated opinion based on my recollection of recent threads of woe, D-chunked cylinders and cracked heads (edit: and scored bores - how the hell did I forget that one) are beating the crap out of team IMSB. Looking at the overall reliability picture through the IMSB lens - "there's a 92% chance my car will never break" - is not reflective of reality. Old cars break for lots of reasons. Cars that used to work will stop working unexpectedly. This is true for Triumphs, and MGs, and Fiats, and Maseratis, and Jaguars. Especially true for Jaguars. This is an immutable truth that is often overlooked when one is just obsessing about the stinking bearing.

I absolutely think it's a $30K car and here's why: 1. It's a 911 2. It's a 911 3. It's a 911 Sure some are in better shape than others so you have to take that into consideration, but at the end of the day, it's an icon. I'm trying to sell mine, but simply refuse to deal with people that lowball me or want to go down the path of it not being worth what I'm asking. Non-Porsche people always compliment me on the car and there isn't a day that goes by where people on the road don't just stare or smile at me.

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So you're asking 30k, huh?

Nope, I'm asking less($22k) because of the factors I mentioned, but I'm not going to unload it for less because of the other reasons I mentioned.

15-25K car depend on options, miles and condition. They are actually really nice cars. The trouble is finding a "good" engine for them when the time comes. IMS Bearing issue haunts them. This is what keeps them cheap to buy. Great beater 911. Buy em', drive em' kill em' park em'. Repeat until you have 4 in your backyard on blocks. Too bad we cant stick DFI motors in them. Or electric for that matter.

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There are a few threads around here documenting converting a 996 to electric.

Here's a data point: I paid exactly $30K for my aero'd C4 about 4 years ago. At that time, I knew full well that I was paying above market price for the car, but the car was special in a number of ways and I fell in love with it. If I could go back then with all the knowledge I have accumulated about the 996 in the intervening years - every potential mode of failure, everything that would eventually go wrong with mine (a surprisingly short list for a car that will be old enough to vote before much longer), and the beatings the 996 would continue to take online...I would do exactly the same thing. I guess this means it's a $30K car. At least, it is to me.

I've got my 02 C2 for sale, well sorted with all the stuff done (IMS, RMS, AOS, clutch, etc) and in pretty good shape for $19,500 and my doors aren't getting knocked down, so who knows. It does have 102k miles on it and a lot of buyers are scared of that. These are an excellent value for the money but as mentioned several times above, if you cheap out up front you'll end up spending more (and have a lot of headaches) all said and done than you would just buying a pristine example.

$14.5K for my POS '99 C2 Coupe that I love like no other. Is it worth 30k? It is to me. After I sold my first 911, I would stare at them longingly every time I saw one. Now I just smile press down on my accelerator. I can't think of a $50k car I would rather have. So $30k seems like a bargain to me.

Exactly. I had an 82 Targa SC. I sold it and immediately wanted to have one again. Took me several years to make it work. There's something about these cars...

I started getting more serious last summer, and I budgeted $25k, with a fudge of $5k. So, I had thirty to spend. I found my dream car for $16k after dodging some turkeys and bought the heck out of it. Then, a few months later I found the plane I wanted and it was $16k, so kismet, I bought the heck out if too. Now, I have the 996 I always wanted, and I have the plane which has cost me another $6500 to get airworthy. $38k well spent, and two nice toys.

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When I was a kid I wanted a 930 with a license plate the read "I FLY LOW."

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That'll work. My boss wanted a 930 about 3 years ago. I told him to buy now or regret it. He didn't. Once in a while I send him a link to a pricey 930 just to tweak him around.

This past May I paid $27k for my 2002 C4 cab (40k miles, 6-speed, advanced technical package, short shift, carbon fiber/aluminum OEM interior interior stuff, clear bra, Valentine 1, fabspeed intake and exhaust, near-perfect condition in and out). I arguably paid a few grand north of what I could have, but still a great value IMO. It will be interesting to see what happens to prices on the 996 incoming years; in addition to the usual reasons, I think the high production numbers will keep some downward pressure on prices. What a car though.

Is the 996 a $30k car? Depends on whether you are evaluating from a financial or emotional perspective. In my view, it is, easily.

Thanks for the replies, guys. I think that Porsche ownership has nothing to do with economy. I just wanted to get your advice and have a realistic idea of cost of ownership. And as usual, I've owned a Porsche in the past, one has to pay to play. However, compared to other models and premium brands the 996 is a good bang for your buck.

there are 996's that cost over 100k (GT2)..

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Another street legal 996 variant would be the GT1 at 3.14million. http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...r-3-14-million

"Is the 996 really a $30k car?" I'll submit that I've had cars that were significantly more than 30k that weren't the car the 996 is.

paid 24.5 k for my 02 C4S Put another 15k in engine repairs so mine is actually a 40k 996 lol

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$15k!!!! What the heck happened? I spent $24.5k for mine 2 months ago that has a bunch of goodies so I feel like I paid market. I'm not gonna brag and say I got a great deal cuz I didn't. It was the exact car I wanted and I paid basically what the dealer was asking ("negotiated" $1500 off sticker) and hightailed it out of there (and haven't stopped grinning since). I don't really buy that we are at the bottom of the depreciation curve. Though I don't have any data points to support my opinion I think the mere perception that this is "not a collector's car" will continue to dog the 996. This feeling makes the 996 somewhat of a bastion of elitist attitudes where folks seem to forget that all of cars share the bloodline and as well as the 3 lovely model digits found on all MYs. I'd consider myself lucky to get what I paid for it in a few yrs when I upgrade to a 997.2.

Mine is worth every penny of 30g to me.

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A few things will happen as time goes by, however. Sure, they made a metric ***t ton of 996's. But they crash, and break, and get crushed into cubes, so there will be less of them. Supply will go down. Also, think of the kid who was 8 or 9 years old when the first 996 came out, knocking his jaw to the ground. He/she is in their mid-twenties now, out of school, earning money...demand will go up. I don't think they will ever achieve the collectibility of the air cooled models, but I do think they will creep up in value over the next decade. Just another guy's internet opinion.

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scored cyl 4 & 6

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Pretty sure that the GT1 is based off the 993 platform and the only relation to the 996 is the headlights.

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Correct technically as it was a transitional place for that car and that's why I said "996 variant". HOWEVER, have you checked to see how many 993 parts an ordinary 996 uses?

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AWD, are you the guy who wrote about your engine rebuild on Grassroots? Great thread. After reading it I decided to start saving more money before I buy. Hence this thread. Hope you are enjoying your car now!

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Except technically speaking "variant" implies that it is based off the stated platform which is not the case here. A few. There are also now a few 997 parts too. None that define the differences between the models though.

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Haha, RL never fails to take it to the nth level of debate. I think if you looked at the parts list, you will find it's more than "a few".

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You started it Gotta have something to do rather than work right?

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You said it.

Headlights be damned, I'd argue the GT1 is more 996 than 993 simply because it's got a water-cooled engine even if that engine did come from a car entirely unrelated to the 996. Fine, the front end shared components with the 993...but there's always the headlights. The headlights, after all, define all cars...right? And, I don't want to hear about the 1-2 versions they made with 993 headlights because nobody really knows about them anyway. Everyone knows, if you put a Ferrari body kit on a Fiero, it ceases being a Pontiac immediately, right? -Eric

Is it a $30k car? Uh, no, the vast majority of them are not. It doesn't really matter if it's 'worth it to you', or if it cost you $30k after replacing a blown engine, etc. The truth is that it's only a $30k car if that's what you can reasonably get for it if necessary, and that isn't the case for almost any 996 that doesn't end with 'Turbo' or '4S'. I paid $33k for my C4 about 11 years ago, and I can promise you that it's depreciated by more than three grand in that time.

I would argue the GT1 shares about as much in common with a 993 or a 996 as it does with an Australian cattle dog.

BS. An Austrailian(sic) cattle dog doesn't have a Porsche crest on its frunk. -Eric

C4S cars in Colorado are still going for $26-$32k.... My friend just picked up a gorgeous modified C4s yesterday... for $26k

OP didn't specify C4, Turbo, S model. Just '996'. If we include all variants of the 996 from 98-05ish, there are some that could be well over $30k. But the 996 in general? Nope. If he wants turbo, C4, C4S prices, that's a new thread.

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Long term these cars will very likely be valued in a wiiiide range that reflects lessons learned over the years, just like the old air cooled cars. A properly rebuilt 996 that addresses the M96's weak points and brings performance up to a more modern standard is imo a 40-50k car all day long. A 996 with a stock engine and the obligatory niggles = half that or less, mileage and trim depending. If I had to do this all over again I might just search for a clean roller and spend the big money on a more durable FSI or similar M96. Start from a position of strength & ignore the b.s. Ahh a poster with an affinity for hyperbole! Such a rare animal these days....

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I'm asking about the C2 only. Sorry for not specifying that earlier. I'm assuming less systems/parts to maintain.

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I thought about looking into getting a roller too. But from what I've read crate motors from the factory are NLA.

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FSI is a whole different animal. If you believe the 6 different customers I've talked to, it's the engine Porsche should have built but never has. A roller and an FSI will run you 30-40k depending on all of the variables and options. And you end up with a car you want to keep for a lifetime.

It would take at least $30k to buy mine - I like it too much. So yes, there are $30k C2 996's!

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I agree. I can't really see any significant differences.

Me neither.

I think it will appreciate, not to the levels of 993's but people said that about SC's and those are going up now... This is the last 911 that can be had without PSM or T/C and in a manual. I think that alone will help values start to go up. Also as mentioned the 9/10 year olds when these were new...ie me and my peers should help the market. My peers tend to be thinking a BRS (w/e that Toyosubaru thing is), newer but used Corvette, m3, 911 type cars and are buying them. I just don't think the norm is 21 like when I bought mine, but neither are a few of my peers with new supercars so there's always exception's. I love my 996 and when the engine goes, I'm going to Ruby for a 400+ hp na car will be a somewhat sad, but good day. At that point the 997 will be my DD...drove a few 991 and think they are way too advanced in tech, no thanks.

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LMAO

AWDguy is a badass; his rebuild thread may be the best thing I've read on RL. And while the $40K he's invested is far more than the market will pay, I would argue that it's STILL not a bad value for the car itself.

Look at what else, built 99 - 05, you can buy a really nice example of for ~$30k. Drive it hard and maintain it properly for 7 years. 1) What'd you have more fun with? 2) What could you sell more quickly for a greater %age of your total outlay? 3) What is your 'other' 99-05-$30k- great-example mobile, anyway?

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http://www.lupientchevrolet.com/Vehi...f8CF08EE13FA5& If you haven't driven one in anger, you are missing out. I would also opine that the mx cost of ownership will pale in comparison to the 996, so TCO would be lower, and fun/cost will be higher.

Well played, sir! I have thrashed an AP2 across a couple counties and enjoyed it greatly. But I got out with not the slightest inclination to transform my 996 into two high-strung Hondas.

I've been having lots of fun with this, paid all of $4,600 for it. If you see it in you rear view mirror, you will think it is an MK1 996.

Do you think there will be a lot of pretty-damn-nice 996 / trackable 996 trading for $5k, seven years from now? I don't.

For the record, I just had my '99 996's IMS/RMS/AOS/clutch/pressure plate, and DMF replaced, AND brake, engine, and transmission fluids changed by a highly regarded indy. Total cost = $4800. Yes, Porsche mntce. is expensive, but I don't consider $4800 to be excessive, given that my car is 17+ years old w/83K miles. The ONLY major expense I've had in the past has been the replacement of all four rotors+pads+sensors for about $1500...done two years ago. As I type this, the car drives like a new car; and I should (hope to) be good to go another 83K. relinuca

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Good price. Yeah - that's pretty much where I would see one.

At this point to have all the work you had done on any make or model would cost you $4,800. That is allot of parts and labor. Just had a bunch of the same work done and for the piece of mind I am more than satisfied as I am sure you are.