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YOUR RESEARCHShould I buy this ?ticking? 996?
Leading reported evidence
Inspect next week
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
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Read evidence and context
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I will post an update here after I have the car inspected next week!
Leading evidence: 'Inspect next week' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Check �cylinder roughness�' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I'm on engine number 3 and will probably just keep swapping in cheap used motors.
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Suggestion · Original poster
Lastly, I did check �cylinder roughness� for all 6 cylinders at idle, 2000rpm and 3000rpm ...
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Suggestion
We are currently filling the schedule for 2021 completions, and the only 2020 slots that remain are on my personal schedule.
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Suggestion · Original poster
While at this I�ll also inspect the sump for debris, have an oil sample collected for analysis and have the oil pickup tube inspected.
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Suggestion · Original poster
I�ve checked out the entirety of Jake�s recent series on M96/M97 bore scoring issue and I know about using Diesel engine oil to get by until �rebuild�.
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36 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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At the expense of some irony, black997er (me) has fallen so in love with the 911 platform that (s)he�s considering adding a 2001 996 C2 to the garage. This would be the track car, the 997.2 would remain the canyon and date night car.
Anyway, the 996 has 100k+ miles, single owner, very regularly serviced. AFAICT, never had a major engine issue. After the test drive (engine warmed up) I did notice a slight tick that seemed louder on driver side (bank 1, see video links below) but this seemed unsupported in the PIWIS data. Would some technical genius here have a look through the numbers I recorded (see pics below) to tell me if any potential causes (besides bore scoring) become apparent?
Caveat: I do plan on sending the block to LN Engineering for 3.8L bore out with Nickies and new pistons, and IMS Solution during reassembly ... so this concern doesn�t matter in the long run. However, I�d like to enjoy the car for about 6 months before I do.
Lastly, I did check �cylinder roughness� for all 6 cylinders at idle, 2000rpm and 3000rpm ... all values stayed in the -0.5 < x < +0.5 range at these different rpms. Most of the time actually read 0.0. Didn�t want to post the video as the username on my laptop is identifying.
Any and all useful comments appreciated!
The -9.xx cam deviation is way out of range - I assume you know this, but that's not causing the ticking sound. You need to scope the bores (preferably from the oil sump side) to determine whether they're scored or not. Only you can can answer the question of whether to buy it or not. I would say if you can afford to do a full rebuild (per your description) prior to your 6 month time frame, then it really doesn't matter either way... ** Doesn't sound like bore scoring type of ticking
Doesn't sound much like bore scoring to me either, however, no expert here. Even if it is scored it doesn't sound bad and if you do a total rebuild with Nickies that solves the problem. It would be nice to understand your definition of "enjoy the car for six months first." actually means. Flat6 Innovations has a video series and in one part Jake talks about extending the life of a bore scored engine until rebuild. At the risk of being trolled as a Fan Bouy I suggest you watch those. I think #7 talks about living with a bore scored engine.That is if it is actually scored, which would have to be diagnosed first as suggested above.
As dporto points out, the cam dev’s are out/going out of spec, so chain guides need replacing. If the chain guides need replacing then “———-“ needs a look, yada, yada, yada. The bank 1 RKAT means the DME is reducing injection time (Ti) for rich condition. That’s probably injectors. The noises sound pretty normal. Check out some of the piston slapping videos on this forum and FSI bore scoring videos, if you haven’t already, Those bore noises made me grit my teeth! I would drop the sump cover and inspect for the expected chain pad debris and ferrous bits while scoping the bottoms. FWIW I have a similar bank 1 noise on my 3.8 rebuild 996.2. I put my mech stethoscope on it and the cylinders all sounded the same 1-6.
Once you put all the info together with service records, PIWIS, visual inspection, etc, you should have a pretty solid idea of how deep the money pit could get.
Does the noise get louder as the revs go up? Try turning the A/C on and see if the noise gets louder or goes away. If it gets louder or stays it can be bore scoring.
The noise does not sound like bore scoring to me. From looking at the cam deviations on bank 1 (-9) and the noise coming from bank 1, you could have a metal-to-metal contact from the vario-cam pads worn through to metal.
I would do the bore scope from the bottom, and if ok ,buy the car..
Figure on replacing the vario-cam pads and the short chains.
I see you have a code for faulty MAF and an 02 sensor (just replace both upstream 02's).
After correcting these issues my prognosis is that it will last the 6 months...Dr. h.c. Porschetech3
Thank you all for the high signal to noise ratio on this thread, I�ve learned a lot! From all this I�m picking up a few things:
1. Scope the cylinders -
@strathconaman
I wasn�t planning on doing this to save time and given my plan, but why wouldn�t I to eliminate that for sure?! While at this I�ll also inspect the sump for debris, have an oil sample collected for analysis and have the oil pickup tube inspected.
2. Cam deviation on bank 1 is way off -
@dporto
and
@hatchetf15
I was misinformed on this, thought the limit was 12degCr (it�s actually 6 degCr, +/-). Ok this is encouraging actually because it may indeed be the symptom of the true source of the tick: worn chain tensioners as mentioned above, could also be worn variocam pads. We�ll see!
@Porschetech3
happy to replace these and the O2 sensors before I drive the car around for a few months while I make a plan for �rebuild�.
Lastly a few answers to some of the questions posed:
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@bull3t
I could only hear the tick up to around 1200rpm ... it either disappeared or was muffled by the exhaust at higher rpm. Did not matter if the A/C was on or off.
-
@wildbilly32
I�ve checked out the entirety of Jake�s recent series on M96/M97 bore scoring issue and I know about using Diesel engine oil to get by until �rebuild�. I�m not necessarily a fan boy but as a mechanical engineer this guy makes a lot of sense to me when in his element and not arguing with people on forums.
Thank you all for the nuggets of wisdom! I will post an update here after I have the car inspected next week!
3.4L engine has the thinnest, weakest cylinder walls of any M96 engine, with 100k+ miles the cylinders are oval or scored. Here is a link to my 2001 3.6L rebuild:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...6-rebuild.html
Wouldn't the 3.6 have thinner cylinder walls than a 3.4?
Also, OP, if you're hoping fir a FSI rebuild, I think your wait may be more than 6 months. Jake is scheduling way further out than 6 months according to recent posts on Rennlist.
I would also think that the 3.4 has the thickest of the cylinder walls as well. That said, Charles at LN Engineering says the bores are always oval ... so it doesn�t matter if you have a 3.4, 3.6 or even 3.8 as in the 997�s.
Also, hardly necessary to do a FSI rebuild for M96/M97 anymore. Jake and Charles just announced that they�ll be doing these �stockers� at RND Engines, which I think is a subsidiary of LN. That said, if I can just get LN to do the cylinder work, I�m thinking I could make an awesome (but slow) diy of the �rebuild�. I�ve read up on the issues to address, have a good connect for most of the specialized tools ... the biggest hurdle would be convincing my significant other to �give� me the time to do it ... so the 6 months would be spent planning and making checklists of every little thing to do for dis-/re-assembly. We�ll see!
Thumbs down
We have not had a 6 month backlog since 2007. We are currently filling the schedule for 2021 completions, and the only 2020 slots that remain are on my personal schedule. Thats limited to two engines, and the smallest thing I build is my R43 (4.3L)
I've been driving a ticking time bomb much worse than that for over a year and it runs too good to worry about. I'll eventually address it, but for now I'm driving it like I stole it and loving it! I'm on engine number 3 and will probably just keep swapping in cheap used motors. I can't see the value in a high dollar rebuild right now. I like the feel of a 996 much more than a 997. I couldn't possibly afford (or justify) anything newer. So, the rest of my car itself is the platform that I care for... engines can come and go. Buy it and drive it!!!
I think he is reinforcing what I said - they are scheduling WAY out. Your 6 month timeline isn't realistic. Put your money down ASAP if you hope to get a slot in 2021. 😀
As I said, hardly necessary to rebuild with FSI ... unless of course there�s something they�re not telling us about the RND program (like they�re all built at FSI anyway, which would be weird). Also as I said, if LN can do the cylinder work, I�ll look into diy�ing the assembly. So again, really confused as to what that �thumbs down� is all about.
I think if you dig a bit, you will find that a full FSI build addresses a lot of things that a stock rebuild doesn't. But if all you are looking for is a bump in displacement, your plan seems reasonable. Good luck.
@nickdee62
haha, that�s one way to go about it. I was very surprised with the solidity and rawness of the 996 relative to my 997. I expected the 996 to be a POS because of all the stories and the insanely low prices, but it�s still a 911! Now I have the time for just one engine out over the next year so I�ll try address everything at the same time.
I�ve dug a lot more than you are imagining and I have the full list of everything they replace for the various classes of rebuild, I just don�t feel like begging them for a spot and giving them more money than is necessary. They send all their blocks to LN anyway if you didn�t know, and that Nickies recipe is really the hard to replicate portion imho. And I may stick with the 3.4L displacement to keep things simple.
I never once said I want to do an FSI rebuild on any timeline, let alone a 6 mo timeline. The presumption in the thumbs down post is what I hate about Jake (or whoever posts on FSI�s behalf) being on forums ... really undermines the message.
Anyway, this is not a very productive line of conversation so let�s abandon it here.
Oh! I was under the impression that a stroke change would also be required with a bump in displacement. If not, the displacement bump would certainly be nice!
AFAIK, there is no stroke change. Your stock crank gets re-used (as long as the journals are all good - a good reason not to "blow up" your engine before deciding to rebuild. Re-grinding/coating these cranks is apparently not an option). The cylinders (Nickies) get bored to 3.8 and you get new pistons, rings, and connecting rods to fit the bore. If you plan on doing the work yourself, LNE can steer you to the proper parts - just know up front, they're not inexpensive!
Thanks for the solid pointers
@dporto
... I�m still very actively thinking about this, however decided to pause my search for a bit and really decide how much time and money I am comfortable spending on this. I did talk to LN about all the parts it�d take to make a stock 996 a reliable race car and it�s more expensive than just the bores and new pistons
we started talking new connecting rods, lifters, cam sensors and accompanying fasteners. And speaking of fasteners, I thought about receiving a box of $2k worth of fasteners and my stomach churned a bit
but that�s what it�d take and even though I�d save some money doing it myself, it�d still be significantly more than I was willing to spend initially. Anyway, this is just on hold and the car is still available (oh and the cylinders are not scored btw, so the ticking is something else). If it sells before I�ve decided to buy, there�s plenty of decent examples to rebuild. I�ll circle back and update the thread when I�m sure which way to go!
And re-reading this, I was rather harsh on FSI / Jake.
@Flat6 Innovations
I apologize for the harsh words ... it�s not like I have never misread a post. Also, I appreciate all the knowledge you generate and share on the forums and on YouTube. Even if I did a diy rebuild for my amusement and/or learning, I would defer heavily to this content so I apologize for dismissing your input here earlier.
Ok now that my ego is properly destroyed, time for a beer
+1...the 996 still feels surprisingly like an air-cooled-era 911 - small, intimate, connected. To me, the 997s (and even more so the 991s) feel less and less 911-like the newer they get, and more like a generic, modern (but still very capable, of course) performance car.
We had a nice cool day here in NE Ohio yesterday, so I spent some time just detailing my 996. I enjoyed it so much that I decided that even if mine never ran again I'd just roll it around and polish it and enjoy the view
If I heard that noise in any other motor, I would say valve lash needs adjustment. That could be for the reason listed or it just could be needing adjustment.
That would be 991�s sir ... 997�s are the last �analog� steering 911�s, although I've driven a 991.2 GT3 and the electric steering in that was delicious. All that said, I was very impressed with the raw feel of the 996. So still actively thinking about getting one ... there�s a nice �99 example close to home that�s more tempting than the one in this thread.
