Better Analogy (Hopefully)

I�m going to make an attempt at explaining my issue with the 996 community�s apparent affinity for devaluing the 996 when it offers �advice� (I use that term loosely) about what the purchase price of some 996 should be. Let me preface this by saying that I, like some of you, was only able to get into a 911 because of the recent 996 market status. I was born poor and am still struggling to claw my way out of it while being honest and not stabbing backs (even though I am constantly lied to and stabbed in the back). I am not a car flipper and I have every intention of keeping this 996 forever. It is my only car and I drive it every day, so, unless I am a complete idiot (which some of you may believe I am), I obviously didn�t buy this car as an �investment,� although any major purchase is an investment whether you like it or not. Also, I do not care about being �the smartest person in the room� and this has absolutely nothing to do with how much I paid for my car. I have identified what I believe to be a detriment to the community and I am trying to address it. If I�m coming across as negative or pompous or condescending, I apologize in advance as that is nowhere near my intention. I am not a selfish ******* - if I was, I wouldn�t post anything at all and I would be a lot better off from a financial perspective than I am. I actively avoid being selfish as much as I possibly can to a fault. I am also not a liar. In fact, dishonesty is one of my biggest peeves (the other is people who display a total lack of consideration). Also, my post count and RL membership duration are not indicative of my overall life experience. This topic is way more broad than Rennlist or Porsche or the 996. I�m not an economist or a broker, but I have a lot of varied experience that gives me a unique perspective that I want to share. But if that perspective isn�t valued here, I don�t want to waste my time or the community�s. If you don�t feel that you can learn from or positively contribute to this post, then keep your snide comments to yourself, please. I can�t stand the typical forum condescension that people display from their keyboard. Now, onto the analogy. Imagine you�re a home owner and you�re at a block party on your street. Let�s just say, for the sake of the analogy, that you paid $150k for your house and the house two doors down is listed for sale at $175k - this house is the exact same floor plan, lot size, finishes, etc. as your house, maybe it�s a different color. But it�s practically the same house on the same street. You�re at the block party, hanging out with your neighbors having fun conversations and such, when a complete stranger walks up and says, �hey everybody, I�m looking at purchasing this house on your street and I�d like to know what you all think of the asking price.� Several of your neighbors then respond: �Oh I wouldn�t touch that house for anything over $140k,� �man, I could�ve bought two of my house and had money left over for that,� �that�s a huge ripoff!� and so on. Would you think that is a good thing? If so, then I don�t ever want to live in the same neighborhood as you, let alone buy something there. Not because I�m looking to flip a house in your neighborhood, but because I don�t want to live in a neighborhood where the neighbors are hell bent on making sure that equity can never be built in a house I buy there. Why? Because we live in a market economy and when property values tank enough, the neighborhood goes to hell: the schools won�t get the funding they need to be decent, ISPs won�t want to install the infrastructure required for better internet, roads won�t get repaired/maintained as often as they should, local businesses will move to greener pastures making life less convenient, etc. The 996 market is similar (notice I said �similar,� not the same. I am not saying buying a house is exactly the same as buying a car) and this forum is the block party. If everyone at this party is actively trying to keep prices down, or at least a significant enough portion of the �neighbors,� it�s not just resale that�s affected. Aftermarket support, events that cater to (or at least include) the 996, even Porsche support will vanish. If there isn�t any money in a market, there�s no incentive for anyone to come into that market and the vendors supporting that market will either go out of business or move to another market altogether. Does that make sense? Public opinion has a HUGE effect on any market, especially one so fickle and volatile as this. So what is said in this forum, especially with regards to purchase price, has a real effect on the 996 market value. My issue with the constant comments implying how dumb people are for �overpaying� for their 996 isn�t so shortsighted or selfish as how much I can flip my car for. The situation surrounding my purchase of my 996 is not the same as anyone else�s and vice versa. But the market value of the 996 in general affects all 996 owners. It�s not just about resale. When your property appreciates in market value it is a good thing (to an extent). Conversely, when your property looses market value it is only a bad thing. There is absolutely nothing to be gained, for current 996 owners, from keeping prices low. Of course, on the other end of the spectrum, we wouldn�t want speculators to �gentrify� the 996 market. If property values increase enough in your neighborhood, the taxes could get so high that it becomes impossible to live there for non-rich folks. For the 996 community, this would translate to, for example, $12k for an exhaust that�s really a $1500 part on any other car and even more money for an exhaust that meets the standards of a part for a car like ours. When I had my M3, they called it the �M tax� where everything for that car had padded prices because the vendors figured the owners could afford it. We do live in a capitalist society, after all (I�m not arguing for or against capitalism here, just reporting on reality). So it could go too far in the opposite direction, but I don�t see that being a problem for the 996 any time soon, if ever. But if the prices do stay this low, nobody will even care to make parts for them anymore and none of us will get to drive them at all. There aren�t enough 996s in existence to enjoy the same kind of support of cars in this price range. I�m hoping the fact that Porsche Classic is going to start supporting the 996 helps. But I can�t imagine them being interested in keeping a group of customers that focus on purchase price over all else; I don�t know of any organization, except maybe Walmart, that would. It�s just not worth their time/energy/resources. This whole phenomenon seems to be a weird competition where paying more than someone else did for their car means losing that competition. Far be it from me to tell anyone what to do - I know I hate being told what to do. I�m merely suggesting that, by constantly having this pricing competition, especially with non-996 owners, in the way it�s being had is not helping anyone. It�s a race to the bottom. It�s not even helping the buyers! After all, once they buy they�re a 996 owner and are affected by the 996 market. If this was a situation where people are being duped into buying crap cars for way too much money, then I�d be all for it. But that�s not what I see happening. I see apples being compared to oranges and there only being one side to the discussion: no matter what, the price is always �too high� even when it isn�t. Let the buyers decide what they�re willing to pay. If you see values creeping up into gentrification territory, then respond accordingly. But that ain�t happening. If you got your 996 for what you think was an amazing deal, that�s great! But every 996 isn�t going to be worth the same money to every buyer. Telling people they�re paying too much, especially when the only reason you say that is because you paid less, isn�t just shooting yourself in both feet, it�s bringing the whole 996 owner community down. Hopefully this makes sense and sparks a real conversation and not a bunch of nonsense. If there is anything about this post I should edit to avoid a thread like the last one, please PM me and let me know.

"Hopefully this makes sense and sparks a real conversation and not a bunch of nonsense. If there is anything about this post I should edit to avoid a thread like the last one, please PM me and let me know." How about not prefacing your "argument" with the comments about A*sholes and pointing out that you're a "fighter"... Can you say passive aggressive? Or in this case aggressive passive... I predict either crickets (hopefully), or a sh*tload of negative comments for this post...

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If that�s the case, then so be it. I�ll know for sure then that I have no place on any internet automotive forum. Not the end of the world. But I�ll take those parts out.

I have to ask .. for what purpose did you buy your 996?

'Some people know the price of everything, but the value of nothing.'

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I have tried in the past to have a daily and a weekend car. I couldn�t do it. So my every day car has to be something I enjoy driving. It would be a very long post to explain the whole story, but I settled on the 911 being my car of choice a few years ago and finally pulled the trigger in November. I got it for a few reasons, but the main being my personal conveyance.

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Value is the exact concept to which I am referring in this thread. This forum is obsessed with price. I am trying to help bring the conversation away from price and toward the value of the experience of 911 ownership. I don�t understand why everyone is so set on fighting me on this.

No one here is trying to keep prices low. New members often ask for price opinions and they are told... It's supply and demand, plus, the failure rate (though low) of engines has scared people off due to the replacement cost. that affects pricing not Rennlist. What would Joey do if he had a catastrophic engine failure?

Joey, thanks for trying to expand your concept. I was never trying to beat you up on your previous attempt...just felt there was a dissonance there that didn't jive with your later protests. Honestly, I still think you are thinking about it wrong. I believe that lower prices actually would keep the secondary market more active overall and keep more interest in owning and driving these cars for the long term (at the very least, "bargain" prices won't negatively affect the interest in these cars). An active secondary market of cars that continue to be driven and need updates, maintenance and repair is what will drive the interest in the aftermarket support....the price of the car in question does not, in and of itself, affect the interest in aftermarket supply. It is the size of the owner pool, the number on the street, the amount of parts needed. There is a huge aftermarket for Honda Civics...its not the resale value of the Civic that drives the interest, as an example. respectfully, just my thoughts!

I just think that the classic market and porsche market is a fickle thing and doesn't always follow logic , look at the 964 prices a few years ago . In my opinion I'm glad prices are where they are, like others I wouldn't have afforded otherwise . Nothing worse than seeing some rich old git driving a gt3 around that's never been over 30mph I mean what's the point? It's a great car , hey it's got its faults but parts are relatively cheap, learn to work on it yourself and it's easily affordable and good fun to tinker on and drive , if prices go up stupid like the air cooled people will stop driving and enjoying them but I think there's just too many been made for that to happen?

Car values are constantly changing. What's at the low end now could potentially change direction in 10 years, which we've seen across many makes and models in recent years. It's all subjective to what buyers are willing to pay at that point in time, the difference is, are you getting the full value (personally) of what you paid? There will always be arguments on why something should be priced at this or that, but in the end the only thing that matters is what you want out of your purchases.

�Let me preface this by saying that I, like some of you, was only able to get into a 911 because of the recent 996 market status.� Are you not shooting yourself in the foot with this statement? If prices had appreciated you�d not have been able to buy one. I think air air cooled prices are silly and hope the 996 doesn�t go the same way as those folks will be afraid to put miles on them fearing depreciation. They�re just cars. As Magnus says: �get out and drive�!

That's a strange community that you live in.

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I was specifically told in the train wreck of a thread I started that �we want prices low.� Whether you think you�re trying to keep prices low or not, I have seen posts from you that help that happen. Public opinion plays a very big role in market value and this is the biggest online Porsche community out there. When I search for 996 related stuff, this and one other forum pops up time after time. People want a quick answer to their questions these days and don�t care much for context. Buyers come here and read two posts that convince them they�re paying too much and make up their purchase decisions from that, sometimes. That�s obviously not all the time, but it�s definitely, at least in my opinion, enough to make a difference. Supply and demand don�t play as big a role in the market as public perception anymore, in my opinion. Although I agree the supply would definitely affect whether or not companies would see it worth their time to get into some market segment. Also, the perfect storm of: the increased volume over the 993; the headlight design; IMSB suit; and advent (not invention, but advent) of the internet together were probably the biggest contributing factors to the lower 996 values. But I don�t think any one of those things by themselves would�ve had too much of an effect on prices. While the internet certainly has had its advantages, it has also been terrible in some ways. The public perception of the IMSB issue is a great example of how far something can spin out of control because of internet echo chambers. To your concern over what I�d do in the event of engine failure - I have worked on motorcycles, cars, tanks, helicopters, and many other things in my life. If I experience catastrophic engine failure, I will fix it and be very depressed while my prized possession is broken. Thank you so much for this reply. I would agree with your point that lower prices would keep people interested if there were more 996s produced than there were. Every generation of the Civic had probably well over ten times the amount of cars produced than all 996s of all years and �trim levels,� let�s call it for the sake of comparison to the Civic. That�s why those prices can stay low and there is still incentive for aftermarket support of those cars. I�m also not suggesting that the sale price of a used car has everything to do with incentivizing aftermarket support, but it does play into market research for anyone looking to start an aftermarket company which supports some used car or another. How much the average owner of a particular thing was willing to pay compared to similar things gives somewhat of a blurry picture of what can be expected with regards to how much the average owner of that thing is willing to pay for aftermarket support. Also, if an entire market is filled with bargain shoppers, it has a pretty big effect on what kind of support that market attracts. If a market segment is small enough, a significant portion of it being comprised of bargain shoppers will preclude the possibility of anyone worth their salt starting a business which supports that market. �Slum lord� types are the ones who go after bargain shopper markets. But they wouldn�t even look at a market that only has 175,000 total possible customers in today�s world. I feel like I specifically addressed that when I compared such a phenomenon as what happened to the 964s to the gentrification of some neighborhood. I don�t think that�s a good thing as much as I don�t think it�s a good thing to tell people they�re paying too much just because there have been lower sale prices in the past. No, I�m not shooting myself in the foot by saying that. I�m not sure how one could possibly come to such a conclusion. If I didn�t get this 996 when I did, I would�ve gotten a 7.2 in a couple more years. I am happy I didn�t have to wait. But the prices being as low as they are don�t necessarily have to do with what I�m trying to address on this forum. What I�m saying is that the prices staying this low, specifically because of the obsession with price in here, will have a detrimental effect on 996 owners. Wow, thanks for that useful contribution, Scott. You�re so clever!

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Using a home market/pessimistic neighbors analogy to compare the alleged negative climate here in the 996 forum is quite interesting and I must say quite thought provoking. However, in your analogy, you present the neighbors in a derogatory light - people with an agenda to hurt individual sells within their community. That's not reality in most cases that I've seen in my life and quite counterproductive if you think about it. Most home communities would NOT want to suppress sells of homes and would rather stay out of the inspection and price negotiations. I would think most home buyers would already know what they're willing to pay and hire a professional inspector to look over every square inch of the home. A more grass roots effort is used to examine the home's surroundings (e.g. good community, near schools, police, convenient access to work, etc.). When my wife and I were looking for a home in a subdivision, we actually went door to door asking people's opinions about the community and any problem neighbors. I didn't worry about the home because I had already done my homework - it was built by a builder with a exceptional reputation and an inspection was carried out. I didn't really care what people in the community thought about the asking price. That was between me, my wife, and my agent. In my opinion, the Porsche 996 is like a nice modern home that was built on a unrealistic budget. The owner of the construction company gave strict orders to the architects, engineers, and contractors to cut costs or risk being fired. Because of a bad economy, they had no other options than to build homes that were supposedly "better" than anything in the whole community but with many cut corners. At first, the homes looked amazing and sold like hotcakes, but after a few years began to have serious problems with wiring, plumping, and roof leaks. The HVAC units would prematurely fail causing all sorts of air quality issues and septic systems would back up into the home's baths and toilets. Because of poor grading, the structural integrity of the foundation would be compromise and crack because of poor quality cement and the lack of steel rod reinforcement. Many of the owners took to the construction company to court and won, but the settlement only provided a small band aid for a gaping wound. In the end, the house would have to be completely reconstructed by an extraordinary well-known home architect in the industry that closely examined the core modes of failure and provided suitable solutions to rectify the houses and provide many years of reliable home ownership. I've been on many internet forums, mostly to learn ways to repair my cars in order to save a little money. I take everyone's opinions with a grain of salt. Overall, I think most people here on the 996 subforum have been truthful to their feelings and don't try to sling mud in people's faces. Some will overgeneralize because of a bad experience, but most are going to be upfront about owning a car like a Porsche 996. It's a great car. Address the known problems and you'll have one of the best Porsche values on the market!

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There is a direct correlation between price and value. One cannot exist without the other...

NuttyProfessor, that is the kind of response I�ve been hoping to inspire. Thank you for that response. I agree with some of it and sincerely appreciate the thoughtful analogy. I don�t agree with it totally, but it�s pretty close to accurate except that I don�t think the 996s are anywhere near as problematic, when compared to the automobiles of that generation, as the internet made them out to be. I would concede, however, to the very real possibility of the internet being a big reason cars got so much better and more reliable in the very next generation - 997.1 included - in addition to being part of the reason behind the extremely low 996 and extremely high 964 sale prices.

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Wrong. Value and cost are codependent. Cost and price are supposed to be directly correlated, but aren�t always. Cost and price are not the same thing.

Why do you seem so bothered about cost and value of a 996? I'm assuming you bought a car, and people gave you some heat for "spending too much". You're putting way too much effort into beating a horse that has been dead for many years now, as you've seen between the two sides discussing their beliefs on current price points and the potential (or non-potential) of the future. Maybe if you give it time the horse will have a second coming around the same time as Jesus. Or it might just stay dead and get nibbled on by buzzards, but until then, might as well just enjoy what you have and stop worrying so much about speculative arguments.

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Why are some people so interested in making this discussion about me? I specifically addressed exactly what you say in this post already. Did you even read this thread? This has NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW MUCH I PAID FOR MY CAR. Is it easier to read in all caps? I don�t know how else to communicate that fact other than to type it. This is not about me specifically. If you think this is a dead horse, then move on. There are plenty of other threads. There isn�t a single thread on this forum that directly addresses this particular issue. There are plenty of threads that endlessly discuss the sale prices of different cars. This is not talking about the purchase price of a particular car. It is a discussion about the effect on public perception of value when 996 owners tell potential buyers that they�re paying too much money for a car they�ve never even seen. Why is this so difficult for people to understand? There are threads about the most obscure, nonsensical stuff on here and this topic could actually be useful. Why is it being fought against by some of you so vehemently? Is there a way I could�ve posted it anonymously so as not to make the thread about me? If the OP doesn�t interest you, why the hell would you post in the thread?

Both of these threads are just gross. No amount of drivel on a message board is going to change anything in regards to 996 pricing. Step away from the computer and go take a ride in your car, which the only reason you should have purchased is to put a smile on your face every time you drive it or look at it. Any other reason is something you've otherwise convinced yourself matters. Stop worrying so much about how much yours and others cars are worth or will be worth and start having some fun. You will be a lot happier person for it. Join PCA, go on a caravan ride with other Porsche owners, turn the radio off and take a weekend ride with a friend on a sunny winter day into the country, stop for lunch and take in the experience. That's what owning a Porsche is really about, the journey not the destination. Stop worrying about being right.

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People make it seem like they're making it about you, but you use the words "me and I" an awful lot in your OP. It is easier to read in all caps, the lower case a's and e's tend to get blurry in my old age. Public perception varies. Just like the values. I posted because this discussion has been discussed before, day in and day out. In fact, it's one of the main talking points of a 996, aside from *cue spooky music* IMSB.

Joey, I spent 3 years obsessing about buying a 996 and searched and looked at 100's of them (online) before pulling the trigger. When someone starts a post asking for opinions I share my opinion! Mine may be different than yours and that's ok, but does it make me a dumb 996 owner? I went in with my eyes wide open and hope one day the market goes through the roof...I bought a really nice roller for $4K and a really good (so far) motor for $6k. Did all the work (not a mechanic) myself and hope to keep it forever! I hope you enjoy your 996 for many years to come, get out and drive!

I think we�re just on different wavelengths on this topic. Now I know for sure it wasn�t just the way it was put. I can�t seem to convince you all that this has nothing to do with what I paid for my car. The market will always correct to whatever it �should� be, so I�m not worried the sky is falling or anything. I identified what I thought I to be an issue at least worth discussion. It is clear that I was wrong about that. I don�t know how to communicate complex topics like this over the internet without causing an argument no matter how much effort I put into it, so you�re right: I�ll just go for a drive in my car and let it be.

�in discussion you are searching for the truth, and in argument you want to prove that you are right. In discussion, therefore, you are anxious to know your neighbor�s views, and you listen to him. In argument, you don�t care anything about his opinions, you want him to hear yours.� Frank Cane, The Business Of Living, 1920

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Hey - I'm here to help. I really don't get your fixation on the aftermarket and "support" from Porsche. Porsche supports everything they have ever sold. You could take a 912, a 914 and even a 924 to any dealer and get it serviced. As for aftermarket, you can buy nearly any part for just about any Porsche ever made. Pelican, Paragon, Vertex, Automobile Atlanta, to name a few, can get any part you will ever need. Am I missing your point about support? As for market value and perception of value - you seem to be obsessed by this for some reason. I guess I can't get my clever mind around worrying about such trivial matters. The cars are worth what the customer is willing to pay. It really is that simple. Opinions on value are just that, opinions. The buyer must decide whether the price is right for them. Again, it's quite simple. Making more of it than actually exists, is what has me poking at you. It's really not a problem that needs to be (over) analyzed.

I learned at a young age "not to throw rocks at a hornets nest"...I knew what would happen, but I did it anyway.

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This is much appreciated and I plan to apply it today at work and at home!

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+1 Thanks for that quote. Great philosophy.

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You weren't kidding about spelling....

Not sure if this will help, but should illustrate my philosophy about buying Porsches. I've owned many, for over 30 years, and all of them were daily drivers, a few I ran into the ground and dumped. I finally added it up and have driven probably 400K miles in my Porsches and typically kept each one for about 5-8 years, sometimes had 2 of them both as alternating daily drivers. With each purchase I assumed it was probable that I would loose the entire amount of money I spent. It was all about having the Porsche ownership and driving experience, never viewed any purchase as something that might have a return some day. I bought them all used in at least above-average condition with a corresponding above average price. And this has been excellent, I spent the money, got what I wanted, and never looked back about what other people said about the car or the purchase prices. Same with my 996. For the financial investors, look at other cars. My Vanagon Syncro value has grown by 300% over 10 years from $5K to over $20K today, and it's a daily driver and not perfect. If the time comes, I expect to sell my 996 for less than I paid for it.

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Can't type either...Often don't proof read or think before opening my mouth.

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+1 +1 +1 I didn't bother wasting time reading the first post. I know OP obsesses enough to have made at least 2 threads now to convince everyone he's right

Joey, I really like your thread. I love thought-provoking topics. Unfortunately, you are wasting your time. Just look at the threads on this forum. Really nothing about customizing these cars. The 996 community is no where near other cars like the BMW, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, etc forums. I've found Porsche guys, especially 996 owners, are just happy to own a Porsche. Nothing wrong with it, but definitely a major difference from other communities. I would not worry about people commenting on the prices of 996s either. It won't affect the market much. I am confident a well-kept, lower-mileage 996 will maintain at least the values we are seeing today. Might even go up now that car companies are moving away from cars to SUVs and analog cars are a thing of the past.

Thanks Joey for starting another cost/value/desirability thread on the mass produced 996. They're sure to sky rocket in value once the marketplace reads your posts.

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Wow, logic and common sense....turns out it�s not so common!

I think most of us got what you were saying but the way you said it and defended yourself was the issue in my opinion. So far this forum seems just fine with good, rational discussion but when you start a thread with "Dumb 996 Owners..." its not a good impression. I absolutely get what you are saying and I've seen similar thoughts all over the web for enthusiast car boards.

Interesting topic. Surely this has to due with the internet in general? For example: air cooled 911 prices before and after 2004? Dang, maybe it could even have to do with the smart phone's existance? A Porsh used to be a stretched bug til people could view what they were capable of conveniently on youtube. Did you buy Duke videos or was youtube the first place where you saw Le Mans or the Ruf Yellow Bird on the Nurburgring... Just thinking out loud. There's a lot to all this.

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https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/22/dece...-expected.html Home sales plummet recently. Sigh,,,,

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Great, I might be able to afford a house again!

This thread seems to be a lot more about human traits than any kind of 'car' price/value. I won't quote, but there are several things I seriously disagree with from the OP. Aside from those few who buy 60 foot yachts, and Falcon jets, the typical 996 market buyers are looking for a bargain. Has anyone ever said they want to pay more for a 996? No, the entire 996 buying world is looking for a deal. I'm the self-described 'bottom feeder'. I just bought a holy grail 1989 928GT for $8000. When done, it's a +$30k car. Should I feel bad because I stole a car from a dipshiit seller who had no idea what he had? Heck no. As for market perception, I'm gonna reveal the naked, honest, undeniable truth about the 996 value proposition. Ready? Here it comes. I - M - S - B Sure, there are other faults in other Porsche models. Sure each model has its limitations. But the fact is - the 996 and Boxster got more negative publicity over the bearing failures than all other Porsche failures combined . The fact that the failure mode is so high(we won't even talk about six sigma, or other quality measures), and it also results in a catastrophic loss of a car. Even noobs in the 996 market hear about the bearing issue, and like it or not, it seriously affects the actual, and perceived value of the cars. I'll tell you another truth that the 996 forum doesn't want to hear. There are OTHER cars, besides the 996! Noooooooooooooooo!! Say it ain't so doc! But oh yes, there are potential buyers who are drawn to the 996 in part because of the low cost of ownership. And then they hear about the IMSB, and say - 'hmmmmm, maybe I should be looking at the Honda S2000? BMW M3? Lotus Esprit?, etc.' And there goes another potential 996 buyer out shopping for other marquees, thus further depressing our market. Not that there's anything wrong with that. In finance circles(no, I don't want backtalk) this is called an 'efficient market'. It is a market that has little or almost no outside interference from a govt, or other control mechanism and the price(value - if one must) is perfectly represented by supply, demand, avail capital, desire, etc. The used 996 market is nearly perfectly represented by those market factors, and I seriously doubt the commentary, good or bad found here has even a marginal affect on what one is willing to pay. Changing human nature is the hardest task in the world. If only I could manipulate people to pay more for 996s, I would be rich beyond measure. The low prices(perceived and actual) are fundamentally a result of those efficient market forces, and I guess one could say that part of the calculus of that price point is perception caused by people like me bashing the car, and seeking out the best bottom-feeder deal I can find. I'd like to do a quantitative analysis using a comparitor linear equation including 'perception' as one of the independent variables. Alas, I have no way to deterministicly include such a metric except with a scalar of unknown offset. Some would argue that the price/value is closely associated with the commentary here. I vehemently disagree with that. I would say it's a microscopic element in the representation of overall 996 value. Edited to correct logical imperative

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that any amount of posting by anyone on RL has any impact whatsoever on the price/value of 996's. Since we are playing some hypothetical games, let's say that starting tomorrow every single person here agrees that 996 prices are about to go through the roof. Do that for the rest of the year, with multiple daily posts about how 996 values are on the brink of shooting upwards. Make posts every single time an outlier on the high end of the price curve sells. At the end of 2019 will that have made squat difference in what they are selling for? No. Too easy to see what they are selling for on Car Gurus, etc. Also, I have never seen this forum as price obsessed. Of course, we all like to monitor values of our possessions, the same as keeping track of whether or not our Apple stock portfolio is going up, down, or remains flat. That doesn't make it an obsession. I can guarantee that I see more price/value related threads in the 991 forum than in the 996 forum. Lots of folks insisted that 914s would never rise in value. Both of mine are worth about 4 times what I paid for them, but I bought them because I like them, no other reason. Personally, I see 996's as a depreciating asset. I also see my 991, Cayman, and Boxster as depreciating assets. Other than a few very limited production models, I don't see any version of 911 increasing in value, other than the air-cooled ones. And, that's a crazy market that I don't see having a whole lot more upside to. Anyway, you made a good choice in car selection. For a dual-purpose fun/daily driver, it's one of the best values out there.

After reading this thread....here is my perspective: You Tube

This reminds me of politcs entirely too much. Buy the car, drive the car, enjoy the car.... if the perceived value of the car upsets you so much and other people�s opinions of the car.... sell the car.

Media and firms like Mecum and Barrett Jackson are to blame for the insane price ballooning. Even BAT is contributing to a lesser extent. Nothing we on the forum could say that will affect 996 prices but if there�s a general consensus of opinion with the motor journalists that start saying the 996 is THE Porsche to have, it wouldn�t take long for folks to start believing the hype. I mean really, are the 964s and 993s that much �better� than a 996/997? They aren�t especially rare, they are slower, don�t handle as well A/C blows, we�ll actually it doesn�t, and are they really more reliable (yes I�m looking at you, 993 valve guides...). People had to have an air cooled Porsche because, well they thought they HAD to have an air cooled Porsche. Intrinsically, there�s no real reason they are more valuable other than the perception that they are cooler and offer more nostalgia. And nostalgia comes with age. So maybe one day when the right journalist with enough pull (a la Chris Harris) starts saying we need to buy a 996, guess what happens next. It�s no different from having to get that reservation at the new fancy restaurant with a 6 month wait list, or standing in line for the next Apple product. Some people are sheep and follow the crowd. Would I have more fun in a 964 over my 996. No way. 1. Because the car won�t drive as nicely. And 2. Because every time I drove it I�d be thinking about why I paid $50-$80k for a Porsche with a flat 6 motor when I coulda paid $20k for a 996. Sure, I may get the feels when I stepped out of it and glanced back. But not $50-$80k worth of feels. Be happy the 996 is so attainable to us mere mortals!

Gentlemen. From now on everyone please only say someone got a "steal of deal" or "amazing buy" online after a 996 sale no matter what the price (especially on BAT). With enough momentum we can make the 996 the next 964. It's really that simple. “Without action, the best intentions in the world are nothing more than that: intentions.” - Jordan Belfort Note: Please only start doing this after May 2019 after I purchased my new daily (hopefully a 996)

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Sorry - I can't wait until then. I stole this one last night. What an amazing buy!

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I think the general consensus at the moment is that it's the best buy in the Porsche market right now. One of the biggest complaints have always been the headlights and even that has now started to get a common response of "well, what exactly is so bad about them?" Most people who don't follow the brand would say they liked the 996 turbo lights but not the regular 996s without realizing that the 996.2 has the same turbo headlights. Who knows? I don't think the 996, version 1 or 2, is going to be a super collectible but I honestly don't see how they could go any cheaper than they are now. My honest opinion is that the 996 prices, in the long run, will not be less than the 997s but I don't really have solid facts to base that on.

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I read many articles that stated the 996 was the bargain of the century and the time to buy is now. It definitely factored into my thought process and also in convincing my wife that adding one to the garage is a good idea. For me, considering the 996 a good investment does not involve the value going up, but rather the value not significantly dropping anymore than it has, which I don't believe it will. It's just too good a car for that. If I own my car for 5 years, even if I dump a bunch of time and money into it (within reason), but can still sell it for close to what I bought it for, I consider that a win. I'm going to dump money into anything I own anyhow, that's just my nature. That's how I like to do things. If at the end of the day I lose money, so be it. I can always make more of that. If I get years of making memories in this car - cruising around with my wife, my daughter taking it to prom, doing a DE event or two, and attending PCA events, the true return on investment will be the experiences I have and the memories made. The fact that I could buy this vehicle for less than a brand new Kia and do these things is amazing to me.

Can you guys hold the prices down until I get a second for my wife? She digs it but can't drive a stick and I sure as hell ain't gonna teach a 60 year old in my car! I just need a year or so...

I shopping for another P-car, how much should I pay for a 996

OP, one thing to keep in mind when you post on a forum is that there will always be folks that will give poor answers, insults, etc... sometimes it's due to how you wrote the post, other times, who knows. Some people will just try to egg you on because it's what they do. It's happened to me as well, and you can't get wrapped up in it. Use the forum for finding help on DIY projects and that's about it.

"Intrinsically, there�s no real reason they are more valuable other than the perception that they are cooler and offer more nostalgia." Yes there is: Production #'s. The 993 is the last of the air-cooled cars and the #'s were low (i.e. not mass produced/hand-built). Add to this that it's considered to be "the most beautiful design" of all the 911's = Collectible... it's that simple. The 996 on the other hand, was mass produced in relatively high numbers (175,000 over 5.5 years). It doesn't mean that the 996 wasn't a technically better car in almost every way (looks are subjective), just that it will never be as rare. The best thing the 996 has going for it regarding future collectibility is that it's considered "the last of the analog P cars" - the applies especially to the manual transmission cars...

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can someone explain exactly what this means? not being a troll - seriously don't know. If "driver aids" qualify as making a car non-analog, how does ABS or PSM play into it? those are driver aids