What Failure Diagnoses Require Engine Drop/Glitter in Oil

Hello All, Second post here. I recently bought a 99' 996 with low miles on it. While going to do an oil change after 900 miles, I noticed a bit of tiny, non ferrous particles in the oil when I dumped the filter in the pan. The oil literally sparkles when it moves around the pan bottom. There was only one tiny magnetic flake in the filter. The pan was spotless when I started. Sample getting analyzed now at Blackstone. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1M...ew?usp=sharing My question is this, can most failures that might cause these symptoms be initially identified with the engine in the car (bore scoring, timing chains)? The dealer wants to drop the engine and tear it down, but the aftermarket warranty I have wont start paying until the failure is shown to be a covered item... If not covered I will have to find other alternatives than the dealer for repair and don't want to be left with the motor out and in pieces. Thanks in advance! Joel

Doesn't look good for your engine. Use a magnet and see if they are ferrous metals.

Non Ferrous

Likely main crank bearings.

Suggest you copy this Thread to the Warranty Company - with the M96 these symptoms are almost always debris from failing crankshaft main bearings. # 5 & 6 are the most likely to go first. The next stage of damage is the worn bearings will start knocking. After that catastrophic engine failure =quickly.And the F.O.M. spreads throughout the engine causing collateral damage. Such an engine may be rejected as a rebuild candidate by knowledgeable M96 mechanics. If the worn bearings issue is addressed now ,it may save the Warranty Company the cost of buying and fitting a replacement low miles engine later(= soon!). But it may be too late already if the debris has spread. That is likely the case unless your engine has the spin-on filter upgrade from LN Engineering. Make sure that you get clear, written Instructions from the Warranty Company about continuing to drive the car. Those Instructions and this Thread may be vital in the coming squabble about repair cost.

Thank you for your response. I assume to visually verify the bad crank bearings = engine out and split the cases? There is a tick at start that goes away in 10-20 secs. Didn't start until last few miles, I took it to the dealer who said it was normal as did the warranty company. This was shortly before the the metal in oil problem. Even with the metal in oil found later, the warranty company told me to change the oil and drive it until I got other indications... When I asked for a verifying statement in an email, I got a call saying a teardown was authorized.., but at my expense. I had to verify by the contract that the teardown would be paid for if a covered item was the final cause. Hence my desire to verify the cause with the minimum of cost anticipating pushback from the warranty people.

Don't start it again!

With the pan off,it may be difficult to prove bearing wear to the satisfaction of the Warranty Company. At this stage it is more a legal maneuvering issue. Mechanically, your M96 is a "Dead Man Walking". So just make sure you get clear written Instructions to the simple question: "Can I drive it or not?" You need legal advice .I can only give M96 repair advice.

Sorry about your engine. Hope the Warranty company covers it. As an aside, its kinda funny that someone thinks a copy of a thread on an internet bulletin board will make a difference when making your case. Some folks just crack me up.

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It is called expert testimony & due care.And the word expert is relative.And clearly the Warranty Company do not care and are not knowledgeable about the M96 compared to some of us here. If anyone has a better no-cost suggestion to help Leo, speak up . As experts go, good luck finding more impressive credentials for the M96 than Post #12 ! Yes indeed a Rennlist Thread can be a very credible source of expert advice see #12 and ignore mine.

I'll take all the free device I can get. will not be driving it further. Maybe the lab results will point a definite finger. Does bore scoring show up as non magnetic particles in the oil? Anyone else maybe have a non engine removal verification idea for oil glitter?

21 out of my 29 documented modes of failure will create "glitter" in the oil. The size, shape, color, and quantity of the debris is the key

Can't find the list on your site or online for a description of mode #21. Only #24 comes up in Youtube. What should I look for in the debris? Thanks!

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No, 21 of the 29 failures exhibit this. Not just #21. I retain all the failure mode details. Sharing it made me a "Fear Monger" in the eyes of those modern humans that cannot accept the truth. Lab results won;t show much, if anything. Debris that can be seen with the naked eye is too large for UOA to detect, unless a particulate test is employed. Few services can effectively offer this. if you are dealing with a warranty company, I will pray for you. Don;t let anyone tear the engine down, you'll often end up with a 2-4K bill, and nothing done. The "tear down" is the shop's way of throwing a lasso on your ***. Dealers are renowned for this, and when we pluck cars off their lots, the customer has to pay a ridiculous fee just to have the vehicle released. Post pics of this debris, and I will identify it.

Ok thank you! I will see what I can do.. These things are specks.

Jake alluded to the reason for my comment Schnell. Extended warranty companies don't care what is right, or what caused the problem, not really. They make their money by not paying claims. And a big one like this will have them looking for every way NOT to pay it. They will fight the claim no matter what...

Clients always pay handsomely for such Expert Testimony. For those who snipe at Jake ,please note Leo does not appear to be a Flat6 customer and is a Rennlist noob. Admirable kindness from someone who should be doing other things.

Which are the WORST. They suspend in oil, and are delivered everywhere in the engine. People say "its no big deal, they are tiny". Yeah, so tiny that they go everywhere.

In "Jake Speak" this means something like : if you replace the worn bearing,the debris will have already spread throughout the engine (because you have no LN oil filter upgrade??) .This debris may block oil-ways and may eventually cause collateral damage to the "repaired" engine. Yes,Leo I had a similar problem to yours years ago and Jake's advice on this subject got me started on M96 work. I never paid him a dime for anything. He helped anyway.I hope you can tell I am grateful and like to share what I learned from him and some other Forum members who get deep into the M96..

I am new posting here, but I did read up here before buying on these forums and am aware of many of the forum issues you mention... One of my few other post was to announce the happy purchase of my new 996! Oh yay... Thanks all for your time and advice! Especially Jake Got the warranty as insurance if something did go wrong knowing that they will fight tooth and nail...

I hope you read every word of your warranty! Good luck and please keep this thread alive with your findings.

Just spent two hours trying to get a decent picture of any of them but no luck due to their size. After magnifying what is in the drain pan from a filter housing worth of oil, the best I can say is several of the similar particles look like little tiny shiny triangular arrowheads (sharks tooth?) less than 1mm long.. There was one rectangular piece also. Everything else is just a point of light like gold dust moving around with the oil. I tried straining the oil through a paper towel but they are so small they barely show up as a few flashes if you look at the sheet in the sun. In the drain pan and filter housing they are a hundred different flashes of light as the oil moves. If you put a light on the oil and move a magnet under the drain pan maybe 2-3% show some reaction to the magnet. Thanks! Joel

I will be following your story closely.

NM

Well I may be taking that course also unless warranty pays like they should..... :/ I planned on working on it myself as a project at some point but thought I should get at least 40k more off a 31k 99' motor down here in warm California.. If I had just looked at the filter element and not also the oil in the drain pan in the sunlight I would be driving it around until who knows what happened. Then fighting the warranty company for a complete loss probably. I will post my UOA even though it will probably not show anything as per post above.. I do have a very recent slight knocking(not ticking) at start up that goes away quickly. Sometime fading in and out until stopping.

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I hope it all works out for you Joel, but the shape you describe reminds me a lot of sheared metal caused by galling. I've noticed these 996 engines are loud at startup which makes me wonder how long after cold start up it takes to get everything up to proper lube specs. My family has been involved in automotive racing and auto testing and engineering for a long time. Most engine wear occurs at cold startup. Mileage doesn't really mean a whole lot for engine wear. Honestly the worst case is lots of cold start ups and short trips over and over. My first car was a test vehicle that ran 24 hrs a day 6 days a week and was serviced routinely. Even at 250,000 miles the engine was fine. Cold starts cause the most wear.

I went to two reputable independent shops today in an effort to proceed in the direction of identifying the cause of the metal in my oil so the findings can be presented to my warranty company. The first one was adamant (95% sure) that it was the IMSB causing the deposits even though it is nonmagnetic. When asked why a steel bearing failing would cause nonmagnetic particles they said there's copper in the IMSB also... Hmmm. Also said he has never seen bore scoring and regardless most of the metal would be deposited in the combustion chamber and not the oil if so. Suggested that since it was caught early, it maybe possible to get away with just changing the IMS bearing ($2800). I am well aware of the negatives of just changing the bearing... The second place took more time and went straight to the IMSB also but when I describe almost no particle reaction to a magnet under the drain pan he discussed possible timing chain guide/tensioner failures causing chain contact with aluminum parts. Asked about noise from loose chains on start up which makes sense but there is none. Did not mention bore scoring. He suggested I install the magnetic drain plug I have and drive it 500 miles more, bring it in and he will examine the drain plug, filter and timing on his analyzer and then go from there. I don't want to drive this thing but I need a failure to show to the warranty company. I am thinking I may have to just pay someone to bore scope it, check for IMSB failure and any other thing that can be accomplished without the worst case teardown with no fix as Jake described above. Any suggestions?

The responses you got are exactly what I got in Pasadena ,Ca.when I was in the same situation years ago. Waste of time. Clearly clueless about the M96. We have Forum Members in the San Diego area who could direct you to better sources.PCA may help if you are a member. If you find yourself in Orange Co , try Hergesheimer in Lake Forest or further North, Rennsport in Torrance. A short cut may be to ask LN Engineering for your closest LN approved/certified IMSB Installer. He would have way more clue ! Others may have better ideas? Good Luck !

Both of them have their heads way up their asses. Don't take them a Go Kart to work on, much less a Porsche. The IMS Bearing is 100% made of FERROUS materials. There's no metal in the bearing that isn't ferrous. It has no copper in the composition.None. Zero. They have probably seen an IMSB failure where copper was present. Why? Because it ran long enough shedding ferrous material that it destroyed the main bearings, and rod bearings as collateral damages. Those bearings DO have copper in their composition. The bore scope will usually show nothing in regard to cylinder wear. Why? Because the wear starts at the bottom of the bore. This is the point that is covered when the piston is positioned at BDC for a bore scope evaluation. The piston covers the point where wear begins, and is always the greatest. The only way to see this is removal of the sump plate and going in from underneath, through the "back door" with the piston at TDC during inspection. This means you have to scope through the spark plug hole, and through the sump. The issue is that you can only access 3 of 6 cylinders from the sump plate due to obstructions. Why install a magnet to monitor non- ferrous material? Yes folks, we can't make this up. Shops are getting worse- if you can't plug a scan tool into it and fix it, they are lost. The are "Technicians", because they damn sure aren't "mechanics". Mechanical things kick their asses.

My skin crawled when I read "drive it another 500 miles"...

Unfortunately, I have read on these forums about the problem with scoring happening where its hard to see. Are any of the three cylinders accessible from the sump on the most likely right bank? The #6 cylinder? If I can find any evidence of scoring, that gets me to the place where I can approach the warranty company and get the payment games going.... Thanks again.

Schnell, what did you end up doing. Was there a warranty company involved? Did they pay? Hergesheimer is an hour away. I will call them tomorrow.

Take the car to Tony Callas. He's my co- instructor for all our hands- on classes, and he knows these engines after years of working with me, and seeing the same things in his shop. Nah... It'll go ahead and blow up. Thats called "self- diagnosis". Not even they could screw up that diagnosis! Telling anyone to drive a car that had debris laden oil is moronic.

OP, what magnet you used to test the oil? My guess is some of the debris are ferrous. If you still have the oil, you could drop a neodymium magnet in it and see what happens. Not saying it can't happen but I don't recall any engine failure case reported online with only nonferrous debris.

Happens with most every cylinder failure we see.

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I see. So if truly no ferrous debris, bore scoping the cylinders should reveal the culprit easily.

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What's the process to be able to properly bore scope all 6 cylinders, as you described 3 are inaccessible from the sump, do you have to tear down the engine? I know you do a serious ppi, do you bore scope all 6 cylinders on the 996's you ppi?

I have a medical grade endoscope. It has the ability to remotely wiggle the end of the unit, and the sheath for the probe is 10X smaller than a commercial borescope. With this I can access the bottom of all cylinders through the sump except #3. Tear it down. This is EXACTLY why I won't even think about touching a car with a warranty. Those people **** me off, and waste my time. Nothing they request makes mechanical sense.

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That makes sense since warranty companies are for profit companies run by mbas and not mechanics or car guys. Sucks, but that's reality.

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The polyester suit wearing, cubicle sitting, clowns that are paid on a reverse commission are the biggest pain in the ***. The more money they save the company, the more they net on commission most of the time. After all the issues I have seen the only thing that I can put together about their agenda, is they want top **** the owner off so bad that they just give up on the warranty claim, and pay for the job themselves. Thats the only thing that would make sense in regard to the back and forth running around, phone calls, and etc that have to occur with these claims. Some people have an OK experience with a warranty for simple issues that cost a few hundred bucks, or even a couple thousand. When you hit them with a real bill, expect a fight. All that said, there's one company that will offer a warranty and stand behind it. LaSalle Warranty Company. These guys are the only ones we'll work with here, and they have paid every claim within hours. They've never balked at a cost, or wanted to do something crazy, like installing a used engine. You deal with the owner, who is very direct, up front, and concise. He's not some cubicle guy... Too bad that they will only cover cars up to 10 years old, though.. I'd not spend the money on a warranty. I'd save some money and do preventative things to the engine... I never ask for a warranty with anything, and if it breaks I won;t even return it. I know all thats going to happen is some stupid piece of fine print is going to get me on a technicality, and its going to **** me off. Had that happen to water pump for my pond a few weeks ago. I just took it pout back, filled it with 2 pounds of Tannerite, and neighbors 5 miles away heard their windows rattle when it detonated.

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I literally laughed out loud at this. Most posters here probably know nothing of tannerite. Every time I go shooting with a large group in the boonies, it seems someone always brings some. I've never thought of using it to dispose of items that aggravate. It sounds therapeutic.

A better alternative is to deal with a seller who has been suggested to you by a competent, honest Indie. Probably one of his customers .The history is known. The Indie won't want to help an unpleasant customer or recommend considering a bad car. He hopes to continue servicing the car. He has way more skin in the game than a Warranty Company. Remember the Warranty Agreement is written by THEIR lawyer not yours. So who do you think will prevail in court ? An exception may be the CarMax warranty ? https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...-warranty.html http://jalopnik.com/should-i-get-a-c...max-1692448481 To make my Indie point on a more personal level -there was a Porsche recently sold on Bring a Trailer that Jake had worked on. We discussed it at length here. If you bought that car & it developed a problem, who would you call ?

M96 Busters

Living near Jake must be like the 4th of July all year long!

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That's interesting, sad that most don't incorporate this into their investigate process. Where is the pride in ones chosen trade for these people. I laughed when I read that the warranty company gave the OP "the okay to do the tear down...at his own expense" Talk about double talk lol You'd have to reply "thank you very go **** yourself"

Agree with everything above and was well aware how much difficulty there will be getting any warranty company to pay for any major repair... I am going to jump through the hoops until I get a rejection of my claim for whatever reason, then decide what to do. Gonna be hard for them as almost everything touched by oil is covered. I am thinking preexisting condition will be their angle... Just got to get to that point. Hopefully another shop will be able to offer some non-takedown, incremental diagnosis plan to find the problem and get there. Broken tensioner bits in the pan, scored bores etc..

Don't let the warranty company off the hook so easily. Even if they play the preexisting condition card, they told you to keep on trucking. They are now partly responsible. It sounds like there is real void in this business for either a car guy lawyer to go after these scum or a good insurance company (but it's likely to be unaffordable). Sadly the best option is Jakes rainy day fund suggestion.

Oh if I get a rejection it will be going to arbitration... Covered parts: A. DIAMOND PREMIER covers the following listed components under section IV part A. 1. Gasoline/Diesel Engine: Cylinder block, cylinder head(s) if damage by internally lubricated parts. The following internally lubricated parts including: pistons, piston rings and pins, crankshaft and main bearings, connecting rods and rod bearings, camshaft and bearings, pushrods, rocker arms, rocker arm shaft, rocker arm pivots, cylinder head intake & exhaust valves, valve keepers, valve retainers, hydraulic and solid valve lifters, cam followers, oil pump, timing chain, and crankshaft gear. Harmonic balancer, metal valve covers, metal timing cover, and metal oil pan (if damaged caused by failure of internally lubricated covered parts); seals and gaskets during rebuilding, cylinder head gaskets, engine vacuum pump, and engine mounts.

Good luck. What a bunch of worthless bastards!!!!!

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Do keep us posted. Good luck!

my aftermarket warranty covered the head gasket replacements on my subarus. $2000-$3000 job. all I had to pay was a $100 deductible. ymmv

Unless I am missing something or words "warranty" escape my understanding...why don't you drive the car and if it blows up, you use the warranty. Right now your car is driving fine, and you have the warranty. Drive the life out of the car, and use the warranty when/if it breaks. Warranty people told you to keep driving the car, oblige them and drive the car. This neurotic posting is ridiculous. Go get in the car, warm the car up, get to the light, bring revs to 6,000 RPM, drop the clutch, redline first four gears. Get some testosterone going.

So metal in the oil no big deal? It's running fine..... Warranty will cover it if it fails for sure..... Pls. No hysterics, just trying to get some technical advice on how to find the cause without pulling the motor. Thanks!

If the warranty will cover the engine if it fails, it sounds like they're offering to pay for a new crate engine if it fails. They've had their shot to save potentially a few grand. Don't save them money at your expense.

And that is why I sold my 996C2 and got a Turbo.

I'm looking forward to the oil analysis report, interested in seeing that.

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Read your warranty for a total loss clause. I think most have them. If the damage exceeds the value of the car they have to pay nothing. A bliwn motor may be just what they want.

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An oil analysis would give you a good idea.

Oil Analysis

Been deciding what to do but finally just took the car in and had the oil pan dropped to see what's in it with faint hopes of pointing to something I can show to the warranty company. Would have just done it myself but that's an automatic void. Found gunk, two non ferrous metal flakes and 6 plastic pieces that aren't completely black and kinda translucent (variocam guide?. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1reK5EPyf9OHZwdnQwYV8xcFE/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1reK5EPyf9blJNd2piUHZSNjQ/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1reK5EPyf9SEhpMUppVnFVMG8/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file//0B1reK5EPyf9OXlWUkpSN0ZPZjA/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d0B1reK5EPyf9Qkh1VFk2cW1CTUU/view?usp=sharing The metal flake is polished on one side and rough on the other. Completely nonmagnetic. Also same tiny sparkles in oil. Not going to pay to teardown the engine to find cause as most likely won't be covered by warranty.

From Maxim Magazine Nov 1999. "Porsche Carerra, most reliable sports car"

They are reliable if they've been properly maintained...There are thousands of them still on the road today! Did you cut open and inspect your oil filter?

So cancelled my warranty and got the money back(most). Motors is ready to drop. Gonna find out what the problem is and go from there. Took Jake and Tony's on-line enthusiasts course, couldn't make the hands on. Cheers! https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gEfnQYJ9BaCJRjPk5qt30kmMM0aGHrr https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WYbAh6aL6E9jeklY1MLnr2xpC_IiCy

Motor out and on stand. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WY...1MLnr2xpC_IiCy https://drive.google.com/open?id=15c...ssiMcjSLcBw9_A IMSB Pic. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qs...lvKAPBkUJz4TZA Dual Row as it is a 1999. Looks like all the oil is from the RMS. It doesn't look like it is in the same depth all the way around.. Picture of #4 intake. Lots of oil residue. Normal? https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LE...4dUYk3uQGS9juQ Any advice on teardown order to find the origin of tiny non metallic flakes? Lol

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Where can I find the online course?

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mailto:[email removed]

Get the tranny off. Mount on a stand. Take it apart.

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http://www.theknowledgegruppe.com/in...nline-classes/ Check this site for the "Enthusiast" course, there hasn't been a new class posted since I took it a few months ago. It was good. They did mention there may not be another one offered as the demand was waning and they might be moving on to another series. Lots of good info. Only problem was I had some technical problems and missed out on 30 minutes of the most critical part of the reassembly discussion, and there really is no way to get it back.

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Done, Done, And partly done. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NT...AT-Ws_4jn_D1Ki

I always find it interesting when a UOA seems to indicate no abnormal wear , and yet there are larger particles obviously in the oil. It is not producing small wear particles, only large particles 10 microns and bigger. It would insinuate that a hardened steel piece failed (like a piece of timing chain roller, or valve spring, or lifter bucket) and got sucked up by the scavenge pump and is chewing up the aluminum housing of the scavenge pump. I will be following this thread with interest, take lots of pictures.

I suggest removing your tailights. Looks like you removed the engine ok, but you may not get so lucky when you put the engine back in.

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Left bank all looked ok. Did ask on another post if cam bearing wear was normal for 32k miles. Had one reply that said it was ok. Really no metal in the little bit of oil in the head. Seemed like a lot of oil residue in the intakes. Here are some more pictures. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bE...R5BqjnTsPhGTxp https://drive.google.com/open?id=10O...-S1bKhLLuBy1zD https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ub...a91tY0PsvyL97E https://drive.google.com/open?id=1m_...zViEWvsAPYwnl0 https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pa...sjmkC0cxdhrRxa

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Seemed ok. Is the worry breaking them when removing the bumper cover? Thanks

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Have you disassembled your scavenge pumps yet? It's a fairly common source of collateral damage debris.

Yes, easy to crack the taillight when removing the bumper cover. I hope there isn’t too much damage. Debris getting into the heads causes a lot of damage, or at least potential damage you may not know about. Look under the “phaser” hydraulic actuator. There is a filter under there -check for debris in the filters.

#3 cylinder Just took off the heads. #3 cylinder has a single line on the bottom, just visual https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lJH374deOxe-3bvOYYMh00MeI7nC5wN Really doesn't look bad enough to account for the amount of particles being generated and ending up in the filter. At least I found something amiss, not sure if it is "the" reason for the particles.

That does seem very minor. Jake did mention that most scoring is low in the bore and you'd need to look while the piston is tdc. Also, Schnell mentioned the likely culprit being the crankshaft bearings - did you check those? At this stage, I'm guessing you don't have any of the glittery oil left. If you do, maybe you can take a video of it glittering and post that instead of trying to get a good picture.

A year or two ago, I nearly had a stroke - I was draining my oil pan into a larger container out in the driveway in the sun and noted a terrifying amount of metallic debris. After the urge to soil myself subsided, I went back to the workbench and checked the area where I store the drain pan. More tiny metal particles, leftovers from grinding I was doing at the workbench. Not suggesting this is OP's situation (although that would be awesome)...but it does not hurt to ensure the drain pan is free of debris prior to each oil change. Leo, I don't suppose you've been grinding near your drain pan recently? Whatever the origin of the debris, good luck.

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First page of thread has a link to a video of the oil in the pan. Gonna have to split the case, look at the back of the bores and the crank bearings as this seems like not enough wear to be the reason for the metal in oil.

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Even this far along I would be happy if that was the case but I thoroughly cleaned the oil pan prior to dumping the filter housing into it. Then took outside in the sun. Cheers!

Splitting the case could be expensive based on what you replace. Something else to consider is if you had significant bearing damage, you would have ferrous metal in the pan. As as suggested before, I�d check you scavenger pumps before splitting the case, and maybe the oil pump for debris and scoring. I could be wrong but I think the bore scoring at the bottom of the bore would be due to piston rocking. If this was the case, then I think you would have ferrous debris from the iron piston skirt coating being rubbed off also.

Oil pump and scavenge pump.

Case Split

Good job. What do the cylinders look like? Any signs of the chain rubbing on the head? Crank/rod bearings?

What’s with the edges of 4&5 pistons? How does the mating head look?

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Not really superficially but just got it up on bench for thorough look.

IMSB was put in with this flange. Not a cause of any problem but Porsche put this part in a brand new car. Casting wasn't complete when they turned it. I doubt its a big deal but I wouldn't think Porsche would do this.

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They are just sitting that way. Everything looks pretty good. Crank is spotless. #1 rod bearing has evidence of small particle damage but really minimal.

What about your thrust bearing? Is it ok? You have not found the source of the metal particles ?

I was asking about the edge of the pistons where the carbon is missing. Did the piston hit the head?

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Iron piston skirt coating?

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That's a good guess.

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Will have the crank carrier apart tomorrow and will post. Crank turns super smoothly...

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They all look in great condition. This is #3 and the dark line corresponds to the mark in the cylinder. Otherwise the wear was similar as this.

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Just cleaner there for some reason. No head contact.

@leoj65 - this is an amazing undertaking. Good on you! Did you attend the rebuild class at Jakes, or just take the online course? Im excited to see how the story ends :-) Ps - answered my own question. I saw you post the online class info above. I hope Jake offers more. I think an on demand video would get way more traction than a live webinar.

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I think so too. It would be nice if you could go back and revisit areas as you progress.. In the online class it was a tradeoff between taking notes and paying attention, and as I said I missed a bunch due to connection problems. I think the "taking-apart" part is the easy part compared to the assembly I am sure. I have worked a bit on top ends on single cylinder motorcycles a couple of times, replaced timing belts on cars and such but that's it for technical difficulty. I will say this engine seems to be designed for assembly/disassembly as it just comes apart in a methodical way with almost all standard tools (a few exceptions). For instance there is only one circlip I have encountered in the whole thing, electrical and other connections are very straightforward with only the power steering lines really being difficult to get to. It's very modular and in most instances all the bolts are the same length and size so there is not a lot of having to keep track of where each one goes, just mark a bag "left head bolts" or whatever and put them all in. For example all the 24 bolts that hold the case halves together are exactly the same size and length. Also no little random springs or other thing shooting out of places as things come apart. There are actually very few moving parts compared to a lot of other engines IMO. Also I was an electronics tech so that removes some of that mystery. In my whole first time engine removal experience, I broke one plastic cable guide, stripped one bolt on a lifter cradle (didn't fully seat the allen socket when I turned it, came out with easy-out ), and snapped one exhaust bolt to the head. I claim the head bolt wasn't my fault as I sprayed it with lube for a day or two beforehand, and it still wouldnt come out later using a torch and easy out. I just need to find the source of the glitter the find out if the damage/wear on the few places I have found is fatal, and I will have to decide on the next course of action. probably nickies and possibly pay for someone to assemble the short block. I have confidence in my wrenching but the corporate knowledge part is the unknown. I have used calipers and dial indicators before, and I believe I understand setting end play, but have never done it.... I understand and have used a torque wrench but have never torqued a crank. These are the areas where I waiver a bit.

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I agree. Its way easier working on my 997 than my Land Rover. The Land Rover has all sorts of magic bolts that are impossible to reach and difference size nuts on the same part for no rhyme or reason. Excited to see your progress. Whats next on the tear down?

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Crank carrier, then clean and inspect everything to look for metal source as it was not blatantly obvious.

Noticed that the these valves look different than the others....

If you can invest in a good torque wrench that also does angle aswel as torque setting as the bearing carrier, conrod and cylinder head bolts need torquing to a certain value then go further by a set angle , you can use an angle gauge but it's a bit tricky in the can box doing the head bolts as there's not much room!

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Gonna need to buy a larger torque wrench so I will take a look at them! Thanks!

Thrust bearings. Guess which one faced the clutch.. I have never seen one of these before, is the scoring/gouging normal? Seems like it should be smooth wear. The friction face on the crank it pressed against was totally smooth.

Do you have a pic of the other side of these bearings? I think I saw something...

If you Search , you'll find Thrust Bearing issues are mentioned but it seems unpredictable which engines suffer & who knows why?. Mine had perfect Thrust bearings at 90k miles but other items were worn.I speculate it may (like the IMSB) be influenced by manufacturing errrors/misalignment in addition to driver error(riding the clutch) and inadequate maintenance . Be sure to do all the appropriate end float measurements many times and very carefully when reassembling?

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That's definitely your source of metal debris. It seams to be getting more common place. Probably due to excessive stop and go traffic, or resting left foot on clutch while driving. High performance pressure plates with increased clamp load will also cause increased wear of the thrust bearing.

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What is the thrust bearing made of? Is it ferrous, or alloy?

Ferrous, just checked it with a magnet.

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Its a tri-metal bearing, it has a steel backing, and copper layer then a soft babbit layer. The steel is of course ferrous, the copper and babbit is not

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Is this excessive/ abnormal wear? Does normal wear look like this? It's almost down to the oil channels. Why the smearing? Ah thank you, did not know that. Maybe this thing is wearing, little pieces are coming off, and it is causing gouging in the oil pump and other areas making the marks and more debris? Not sure if it could have caused the damage in my scavenge pumps though? From post #60, this is the only observable (2-4 mm's) piece of metal I have found in my engine. It has machine markings on one side and is course on the other. Non-ferrous. I can't find anywhere in the engine that has a piece like it missing from it. I haven't removed the valves yet though. Several spots in the engine have evidence some kind of debris went through them, the picture are further back in the thread. Oil pump, cam bearings, the plain bearing for the IMBS. The crank and rod bearings look great. I emptied the oil filter housing four times, and the particles still returned after the oil was circulated so something was making them..... Maybe this thing flaked off during machining/assembly and has been bouncing around in the sump, scoring my #3 cylinder and getting chewed up sending smaller pieces through my engine?

IMS plain bearing

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I don't think that large piece of non-ferrous material is from your thrust bearing, it looks too large and I don't see chucks broken off the thrust bearing. Look around on the crankshaft carrier where the rods exit the carrier, look at the edges. There is minimal clearance here and since your thrust bearing is worn, it will allow the crankshaft assembly to move farther away from the clutch/flywheel trans side and due to very close clearance may have touched the edging of the aluminum carrier breaking off a small piece. Keep looking/investigating you will eventually find the place that piece came from. The scratches in your oil pump and scavenge pump are the result of debris from the thrust bearing floating around suspended in the oil.Some debris from the thrust bearing can get sloshed back up into the head and and get sucked up by the scavenge pump before it gets caught by the oil filter.

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Thanks Porschetech. Looks like it might be the root of leo's issue, but not mine (I'm hunting pure ferrous). One more thing off the list.

I think you need to get your B2 head checked for cracks also. Combustion chambers looked like they were steam cleaned. The "stains" may be from the coolant/water.

Anyone know if there is a reason my new head bolts have a head diameter about 1.5mm smaller than the originals? I like the larger size on the old ones, it seems like a larger area of distribution of the force across the head surface would be good. It is very noticable when you hold them side by side.

Those are the lightweight racing version.

Hahahah, sarcasm, it hurts. They are the "OEM" version I got online for $8 vs $12 each, just wondering if they are also the "gouge your head" or "snap when you torque them" version .

Get these from Sunset https://www.sunsetporscheparts.com/o...ew-99610418059 The bolt has been updated to -059 https://www.sunsetporscheparts.com/?...tr=99610418058

Was out of town for two months, picking up my new oil squirters in two days and will start to reassemble the crank carrier with new Porsche bearings and ARP hardware. Anyone that has done it (crank carrier) before have any advice?

CLEAN solvent and air through oil holes (crank and carrier). Better to put it in a tank and pump solvent through the holes. ARP, not Porsche, torque spec for rods. Light coating of Loctite sleeve retainer for squirters, avoid coating holes. Installing IMSB probably easier now than in engine. I coated my bearing shells with Molykote 321 - check Pelican forum if interested. Measure your crank journals and check rod bushings. Replacing rod bushings is relatively cheap.

Many "reputable shops" are, well, reputable. But....their techs are NOT engine re-builders. Faced with unexplainable metal fragments, such shops frequently gravitate to their 996 Porsche biases, like "its the IMSB". Engine re-builders, like Flat 6 and a few rennlisters, are "technicians with actual engine repair experience". relinuca

1000 dollar question, My dual row IMSB seems to be in perfect condition. Seal looks good turns and smoothly, no play. I am thinking of just putting the IMS back in the car as is. Then replacing it at 60k when I do my clutch. I can't think of any reason to put in a non sealed bearing now with engines history of making metal. I plan on having two magnetic drain plugs and just swapping them out every 2k miles or so just to check for any ferrous metal particles.

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If you haven't removed the bearing from the IMS then you could reuse. BTW, how did the thrust surface on the crankshaft look?

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Did you pull the IMS bearing? General rule - once pulled never use again. The pulling out process destroys the races of the bearing. Do you mean you have the engine completely split in half and have the whole Intermediate Shaft in hand with the bearing on it? I think at that point I would still replace it with a new ceramic dual row bearing and have the shaft pinned.

Shafts sitting on the bench with the bearing still in place. I am considering getting the shaft pinned but really don't have a local machine shop here in San Diego I know to do it. Just going to send it to LN to have it done.

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First and only one I've ever seen but it looked just like all the other ones on the crank.

Is it worth the risk?

IMS off to LN to be pinned and dual row ceramic installed. One month wait unfortunately if I want my original IMS back.

IMS back and case going back together. Alignment marks

Case halves together, kinda a PITA getting the first two wrist pins in........ Clips went in great even with the tab left on.

I wish I could do this! Glad to see things moving forward for you and thanks for sharing the process...

Joel, I sent you pm.

Thank you for documenting this for us. Makes me which I was mechanically competent.

Heads on and timed. Bought a cheap angle torque tool for the head bolts that worked good enough. Accessories going on, waiting for replacement heat exchanger, old one was pitted on bottom due to leakage. I was worried it wouldn't seal. Machined surface on case where o-rings sit are slightly grooved still after factory machining so might not have been making a good seal.

???????????

Put the rest of the accessories minus the A/C pump on and also the engine support frame. Packed the oil pump with Vaseline for suction. Installed RMS, flywheel, clutch and tranny. Engine under car partially lifted until I bleed the clutch. This para-cord worked great to hold the flywheel to tighten the bolts. Used the points on the bolts to do the 120 degree stretch after torque, two points equals 120 degree turn. Tool I made for installing RMS. It worked, but it took a while. It doesn't look like it but the bottom was milled flat. Mark is at 13mm for depth. To be honest it's hard to make it go in straight and to gauge the depth, These self made tools aren't the exact diameter so the don't push exactly on the seals outside edge. Even with the tool off, the seal depth is hard to measure from the crank face as the seal is not flat across its cross section. Transmission went on pretty easy, I had numbered the bolts 1-8 so no worries. I used anti-seize, so I quit trying to set the stated torque as I could tell it was not accurate and was too much. Corrosion from leaking heat-exchanger. Water was going into the bell housing. Just high enough in today so I can reconnect the clutch hose and bleed it. Converted oil filter bypass to oil NO bypass for break in, maybe longer.

Excellent!

Wrap/insulate the power wire so it doesn't touch anything when you lift the engine into the car.

So I put the motor all the way in two days ago. Once in, I filled it with fluids and yikes saw some liquid dripping! Luckily it was just the bottom right large coolant hose manifold that was not tight. Tightened it down and then no leaks anywhere. Then exhaust on, all connectors connected, double checked everything, re-read Jake Raby's advise on first start, and then turned the key on then off 5 times to prime injectors. Sat there for a second, and then moved the key all the way to start......... There was fear. Cranked for 5-10 seconds, saw tach just bouncing but no oil pressure. Cranked 5-10 secs again, same result. Cranked third time, sputter! Fourth time pumping the pedal sputter, sputter light off! Shut it down after 4 seconds just as oil pressure started to move. 5th crank starts right up and oil pressure goes right to 5+..... Happy! But it sounded like a diesel motor.. #1 bank/head making a racket. https://photos.app.goo.gl/fABTSvSGk8jtr7pN9 This link doesn't do it justice how bad it sounded, horrible thoughts go through my mind.. It sound like every lifter is stuck but who knows. So many things I have doubts about just because of lack of experience. I let it run a bit to check fluids and for leaks(none), lots of smoke from engine outside. Then I shut it off and go inside.. Pretty dejected. Yesterday I talk to a few people and show them the video and everyone says stuck lifter. I put straight 30w break in oil in it to start, so maybe it has to warm up and thin out to pump up my reused lifters? So today, after much worrying, I decide to restart it, let it heat up and see what happens when the oil thins out.Well after 2 minutes the noise starts to fade in and out until it's gone!!! Totaly!!! https://photos.app.goo.gl/XL3JrDkdLd9wTdcZ6 Dash https://photos.app.goo.gl/vdqeyUqqWDfnfibq5 Super happy!! Still have to finish connecting the axles, shift linkage, cross members and put tires on before I can drive it but it's ready to go...!

New Lifter Problems: There are some extensive discussions of this subject..Much detail on pre-lubing new lifters ,testing and comparing used lifters. The same design of lifter is used in many other vehicles.Specifics may vary slightly(but how exactly?) but certainly the test/performance issues are the same. Much of the info is contradictory unless you eliminate the amateurs (like me). My experience with 2 sets of new lifters and 1 set of used lifters with multiple tests and in-engine trials is that the subject is opaque. For example I replaced one set of new lifters with the correct OEM part number after less than 100 miles because of a slight ticking from 2 cylinders iirc. The replacement set was better but not perfect -initially. After well over 100 miles but less than 1000 miles they became silent. I have no clue why ! So experience says be patient and gentle if ticking occurs with new lifters. .Deep knowledge of the subject (I do not have it) says to prepare the lifters correctly. I followed 'correct' procedure but my experience was as above.It is a pity INA does not participate on this Forum !

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I had the same experience on first start-up (didn't replace lifters etc. though). It sounded terrible, and was a little scary (like - Holy crap I totally F'd this thing up!), but thinking about it just told me "relax and let it run a little"... It started to smooth out and quiet down within a minute or two (longest minute or two in my life). Make sure you really check all of your coolant connections for leaks at full operating temp/pressure - I had a few leaks that I needed to tighten up the clamps on. Good luck with 'er!

I'm having lifter related issues on the engine for my 996.1, (which is getting rebuilt), bought the INA replacement ones and two failed after start up, then another 4, the supplier has replaced them all (like for like). Going back in again for second go around. After failure the lifter can be pushed in by hand (apparently).

Congrats !!

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Doesn't sound like fun. That was one of my big dilemas, what parts to get new and what ones to reuse. I kept the old lifters mostly because I knew they were working, and also because they are expensive to replace. I also reused all my sensors. I figured why replace a known quantity with an unknown. I just kept thinking what I would do if I replaced the working oil pressure sensor and got a bad new one? That would be a bad way to start things off! I've now driven 50 miles and no codes so so far so good... Pretty curious what my cam deviations are but no Durametric.

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Hey Schnell, just wondering when you looked at the problem lifters on replacement, was there any damage visible on them or the camshaft from not being properly pressurized? Any marks on the lobes or on the lifter top?

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Same question as for Schnell Montychristo?

Just an update. Almost 1500 miles now with no issues. No oil burn, no leaks, no CEL's, no codes! Real happy. Dropped pan at 500 mile oil change, totally clean except one 1/2" piece of dribond sealent on oil pickup screen, and a small amount of gray slime on magnetic plug. About $3000.00 for everything including LN ceramic dual row installed at LN while having the IMS pinned there. Probably spent $200.00 in new tools including the Chinese timing/wrist pin tool. Did everything completely by myself. New: LN ceramic IMSB and pinned shaft Low Temp Thermostat ARP rod bolts and all other factory stretch to degrees bolts Cam Chains Main and vario cam chain guides AOS Heat exchanger Seals Scavenge pumps Injectors cleaned and rebuilt. They tested good before the rebuild when received by the shop. Be prepared to spend hours cleaning....... Carbon, gasket residue, Dribond, etc..... For hours... Thought about driving it like this for awhile. Looks kinda cool.

Just read this whole thread. Great job BTW. I am curious about what the root cause of you problem was. Was it the thrust bearing? Thanks Dave

Congrats!! Very good job on a frugal $3k repair that ended up better than it was before failure !! I believe you had a thrust bearing failure? Goes to show that a thrust bearing failure need not to be the end of the world !! Hope you get many more trouble free happy miles !!

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Kinda hard to say. There was nothing obvious after very carefully looking at all the surface that might rub and make non magnetic particles. I think the most likely culprit was the scavenge pumps wearing due to damage from metal left over from the engines original assembly. I think some small aluminum particles would be normal also. Pretty obvious quality control was weak during assembly when you see what was still found in the engine 20 years and 31,000 mile later. This corroded machining chip came out of a head while I was blowing out the passageways during cleaning. Cracked head in the waiting. This one was in the pan, It is just part of the casting that was left over inside the engine on assembly. And they used this IMS flange in the car, even though it was an incomplete casting before machining.

Incredible. That last pic....just unbelievable

If anyone is interested, here is the wear on the IMS drive chain tensioner guide and VarioCam guides after 31,000 miles. Don't know if it is typical. Just provided as a reference.

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That is concerning. I imagine wear accelerates quickly once it gets this bad too. And the use of that IMSB flange is mind boggling. I'd love to take it back and see Porsche explain that one!

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Miles doesn�t do this. This is what extended oil service intervals do, as well as driving the car too lightly. That decal in the engine bay that�s starng you right in the face just adds to it. I have seen these wear pads wear completely through in 25K miles, when the right circumstances are present. Every 2001 and older 996, and 2002 and older Boxster on the road needs these wear pads replaced at this point. The material has been revised 2-3 times, and the new wear pads are much better.

Interesting that the wear material has been upgraded. So novice engine rebuilders(like me) beware - make sure you get the latest upgrade. It would be sad to do a prefect rebuild with old spec pads.

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I found this to be true on a lot of things, so many different/superseded part #'s for these older cars. I bought several parts from a certain Porsche dealer and one was the wrong part even though their site said it would fit. After paying shipping and restocking fees when I did the return, I ended up paying $50 for the single main pulley bolt I did keep! The cam guides I bought were cream colored, part# 996-105-253-00. Should be the new ones!

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I just want to say thanks to everyone that has given free advice on these cars, Jake, Tony and others on this forum,. Even though you may not be aware of it, it was worth so much. I did take Jake and Tony's 101 online course, but beyond that almost every internet search I have done while putting this thing together has contained some very useful information from many people for each step along the way. Although cost precluded me from doing some things, most everything I did was influenced by free advice you have been nice enough to provided on this and other forums. I'll buy that 996 book when it comes out to make up for it........ Joel

I remember the days when chain tensioners had jockey wheels and real bearings; instead of friction drive self destructing plastic crap...but then again I'm an old fart what do I know?

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Don't feel bad Chris, I'm so old I have no energy to fart. I have to wait until it slides out on it's own. Had to get rid of plastic chairs because of this.

TMI!!

I kept my chewed up chain guides from teh engine work last year, but I've missplaced them. They looked similar to the photo above and the work was done at 80K.

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I'll be buying one as soon as they're out too!

Here�s a good comparison of old to new tensioner pads from my car I bought as a roller with 59k miles. Pretty significant inference in the look of the material.