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YOUR RESEARCH996 IMS retro fit make the motors safe?
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penny-pinching at corporate
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This helps fix a known issue with a huge downside for an owner that was caused by penny-pinching at corporate.
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The research from the warranty company says, they checked 100 cars with an average of 88,000 miles and 6 had had an IMS failure.
Check with my local indi garage and although he has
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I also checked with my local indi garage and although he has changed quite a few he has never changed a broken one.
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The safety profile of the LN bearings is extremely good, and it's reportedly perfect for engines that were formally inspected before install to ensure they're healthy.
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Tolerances, wear, cylinder health, etc all get inspected when you go with an LN-certified shop retrofit.
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Suggestion
Personally I would not have purchased a single row 996 without the upgrade and pre check first so that is why my dealer had it done for me prior to taking delivery.
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The safety profile of the LN bearings is extremely good, and it's reportedly perfect for engines that were formally inspected before install to ensure they're healthy.
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I just bout a 2001, and the IMS has the bearing done with one of yours, but it was purchased and installed prior to your website keeping track of the serial numbers/model.
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I think the bigger issue is porsche using ****ty materials to make their blocks/engine cases that eventually cause cylinders to taper and eventually score.
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It was under warranty and he didn't have to pay a dime , but was still not happy being on this 3rd engine, but it made him feel a little better to have the "new" large single row bearing on the last engine.
Looking at picking up a 996, read that there is a IMS retro fit that will solve the grenade potential on the motor? They are just priced so low I figure just add $1500-$2k for the ims change. Correct?
Lots of online discussion of this subject - on this forum and many others.
There's a pretty general consensus that the IMS Solution from LN Engineering is a permanent fix. The cost of just the parts can reach $1500, and the labor will typically be more. It more or less requires that the engine be removed, which is time-consuming (and thus expensive) but allows other jobs to be done at the same time (e.g. RMS, AOS, clutch).
The IMS Solution is by no means the only choice - Googling will reveal plenty of others, with varying reviews. None is quick and easy to install.
Wow....big and complex question. Do your homework on this site. Also go to the PCA website for the video on IMS done with Jake of flat 6 innovations. Jake is the expert. Also go to flat6innovations.com site. Jake is a sponsor and has a ton of info on his site.
Prior to picking up my 2001 C4 I had the 6/75,000 Pro bearing from LN Engineering installed. Cost was $1750 total but I added a new clutch and RMS so paid just over $2300. The smart solution long term use is "the solution" from LN Engineering.
And I am crazy about my 996.
Makes the motor safer, possibly. Safer in it will be less likely to suffer an IMSB bearing failure. The engine is only as strong as its weakest part. Upgrade the bearing and you've just brought another threat to engine longevity to the top of the list. That rod wtih a tiny inclusion in it may be at the top of the list. Or a weak link in a cam chain. Or slightly less than perfect rod bolt.
Be aware that Porsche has jumped onto the IMSB replacement bearing bandwagon. My info is Porsche offers an IMSB upgrade/kit that sells for a couple of hundred dollars. Includes a new/improved bearing and some other stuff. 'course, the transmission has to come out of the car and the flywheel be removed and the proper steps followed to remove the old bearing and install the new bearing.
The factory ims bearing replacement kit contains a sealed, silicon nitride "ceramic" 6204 series single row ball bearing. This kit would be equivalent to the LN Classic Single Row IMS Retrofit. The main difference between the Porsche single row ceramic and LN single row ceramic kit is that the Porsche one has a larger center stud, like what was used on the 06-08 bearings, but the LN kit comes with an open bearing rather than a sealed one. Otherwise, load capacities are the same. I dare say the Porsche IMS kit has a prettier flange, but otherwise, function is the same.
What I find interesting is that Porsche came to the same conclusion as we did, however about 10 years after we did, for whatever that is worth.
We hardly sell any of the Single Row Classic IMS Retrofits anymore, as the Single Row Pro has double the load capacity for the same price or the IMS Solution provides a permanent solution to the IMS problem.
titan7 - They're really spectacular little cars. I think you'll find one to be a nice compliment to your 991. Most of us get the LN replacement bearing which is not a permanent fix as it has to be changed out on a service interval of 6 years or 75,000 miles. The IMSB is not the only issue we fret about on this forum but it is certainly the issue that most of us take preventative steps to fix. If you're budgeting I will share that I paid $3,000 at a local independent shop to have my LN bearing installed along with a new clutch. I needed my new clutch but lots of folks here change out their clutch and sometimes flywheel regardless of need as a "while I'm in there" kind of deal.
As others have said - this isn't a simple issue. But if you're just stewing on the idea of adding a great Porsche at a great price to your stable, then yeah plan on doing $5,000ish worth of work to address some issues on a tired old 16-20 year old car, IMSB retrofit included for peace of mind.
When did this become available? When I was chewing the fat with the service manager at my dealer about a month ago, he still said their official position was that they would not replace an IMSB because Porsche offered no replacement part for it.
Not sure I'd want this handled at a dealer anyway since their techs may be doing this job for the first time and figuring it out as they go; would prefer somebody who's done it dozens of times before.
So basically, Porsche has a kit, and it is fairly cheap, but its not worth it as its the same thing as the single row classic? Seems like if anyone was swapping out, it would be worth the effort to just do the solution and be done with it. I actually may have spoken to you on the phone recently. I just bout a 2001, and the IMS has the bearing done with one of yours, but it was purchased and installed prior to your website keeping track of the serial numbers/model. I am unsure as to the model of bearing, and may just swap it out again at some point for the solution. The job was completed years ago, but the car only has 2000 miles on it since.
Interesting....This is the first I have heard of the Porsche upgrade. It didn't make a big splash when introduced. I have been retired from Porsche dealership for over 2 years now , but keep up pretty well on some things, especially IMS related since I own 3 cars with M96 engines.
I was under the impression Porsche was "done" with the IMS situation after the class action suit, but seems if someone chooses to preemptively replace their IMS with the Porsche approved upgrade, it would put them "back on the hook" again for a period of time during the warranty period.
Price is $629.51 as of last July. Here are some pictures of the kit as well. There are no service bulletins with instructions, tools required, or recommended service interval that anyone can find. I guess they are expecting dealerships to just use the IMS Pro Tool kits they have used the last 10 years with the procedure we developed :-)
I would like to point out the date of manufacture on the labels. Bearings are from 2013 and the flange is from 2014. There are a few theories floating around. The most plausible is they came up with the kit thinking that the class action suit may result in their having to replace IMS bearings through some sort of recall. The kits themselves have a date stamp of 6/30/2017, so they were not kitted and ready for sale until this year.
It is reassuring that their engineers came up with the same answer we did going with a ceramic hybrid bearing and that they still believe lubrication is not a problem since they still are including a grease seal on the bearing.
Fascinating turn of events! FWIW I guess it's good to see Porsche still care about supporting the M96 or making money but im going to be optimistic and think it's the former
Yes, it looks as if they have been sitting on this for a couple years now, or it was released in parts, and now in kit form. I'll contact my associates that are still at the dealership and see if they are aware of this information, or can add to it. A lot of information gets shared at Tech meetings or Tech Training that never leaves the loop unless asked.
This could do a lot for the Brand image and reputation for the 996. I would love to see some more come from Stuttgart for the 996.
Not necessarily. They're at opposite ends of the engine and don't have a ton to do with one another. The water pump can be easily replaced with the engine and transmission in the car. The IMS bearing requires removing at least the transmission, but again that's at the opposite end of the engine from the water pump, so doesn't really get you any closer to replacing the WP. If you take the engine out to do the IMS, then sure, it would make sense to do the WP at the same time.
My newly acquired '99 996/tiptronic has 82,500 on it and supposedly the lowest failure rate - but I will still likely have the LN Solution done for long term peace of mind. I like the aspect of direct oil feed.
Hi I have done a lot of research regarding IMS before buying both 996 and 997, I also spoke with Porsche and found research (from their warranties which I no longer have as this was about 3 years back)
The research from the warranty company says, they checked 100 cars with an average of 88,000 miles and 6 had had an IMS failure. (so one goes on average every 1,400,000miles driven).
The research also showed that they could go at under 20k or over 200k
I asked my main dealer if it was worth changing IMS bearing:-) in mind they would be getting around 2 or 3k for the job.
They told me it's never worth changing unless it is braking (which makes sense) I don't change any other part of my car unless it needs it, and if they do fail you will hear it, turn off engine and phone recovery (simple).
No doubt you will hear lots of stories of people who have brothers who have friends who have colleague who new someone that lived on the moon and his IMS went and it cost him $400,000,000,000.00 to fix.
I also checked with my local indi garage and although he has changed quite a few he has never changed a broken one.
I think it's a bit of Chinese whispers
Hi I have done a lot of research regarding IMS before buying both 996 and 997, I also spoke with Porsche and found research (from their warranties which I no longer have as this was about 3 years back)
The research from the warranty company says, they checked 100 cars with an average of 88,000 miles and 6 had had an IMS failure. (so one goes on average every 1,400,000miles driven).
The research also showed that they could go at under 20k or over 200k
I asked my main dealer if it was worth changing IMS bearing:-) in mind they would be getting around 2 or 3k for the job.
They told me it's never worth changing unless it is braking (which makes sense) I don't change any other part of my car unless it needs it, and if they do fail you will hear it, turn off engine and phone recovery (simple).
No doubt you will hear lots of stories of people who have brothers who have friends who have colleague who new someone that lived on the moon and his IMS went and it cost him $400,000,000,000.00 to fix.
I also checked with my local indi garage and although he has changed quite a few he has never changed a broken one.
I think it's a bit of Chinese whispers
Find a new dealer. If they are replacing only broken IMS bearings, they are putting more failure prone engines back into the market. If I was shopping for a car, I would actually ask for the dealers name so I could avoid any of their cars that they replaced an IMS on.
So do a retro fit for 2k on a problem which will have a 1:150 chance of arising per annum;
Lets see, if you had 20 911's would you still pay $40,000 to have 20 IMS's done.
And do you personally know anyone it's happened to, I don't and I know quite a few 911 owners, aswell ha having a few of my own,
and the one I have now has a lot of performance upgrades (not bragging just have a lot more power than regular 997s) so extra stress on IMS
Russ
Porsche main dealer!!!
When I refer tio local Indi garage I ment mechanic and the others I spoke to were porsche main dealer and warranty companies.
I know lots of garages post photos of ( "look what will happen if you dont change it")
An 8% chance of catastrophic failure on my new to me 2001 Carerra 4 was worth the 1750 cost for me. And had the RMS and Clutch done while tranny was out for another $550.
So 1750 for the Pro LN bearing vs an 8% chance of sending my purchase to the trash heap. Each person has to make that decision. Glad you are happy with your decision.
Ahhh! think we miss understood each other,
my local indi has never changed a broken ims becaues he's never had a car in with a broken ims, he's not selling cars with broken ims :-)
That's 8% on the life of the car not pa. put it in perspective,
So I hope you will have at least 20 911's in your life thats $40,000 on imsb's but realisticly only one will fail, $2k to repair or maybe $6-8k if your unlucky either way I saved you over $30k
and you may think like me i'll only ever buy 1 911, 10 months later I was on my second one.
How do you figure $6-8K to fix a motor that's had an IMSB fail?
Maybe you should update your research from someone that specializes in the M96 and its IMSB failures. A lot of collateral damage to the motor when it lets loose.
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post14712526
Start here...
2k if it's just Ims and a some exta in the unlikely event it's done more damage.
keep in mind it's unlikely to go in the first place.
unless you own a garage then you will tell me it will definitely go next time I strt her up
Kind of like the bullet that you don't hear is the one that gets you?
Given my luck, I plan to get the LN Solution done on my low-risk, low-percentage of failure, tiptronic 1999 996. It's the same principle that keeps me off roller coasters - I know that if I get on, the one in a million failure will happen.
Let's be honest how pi##ed off would you be if you changed your imsb only to have a crank bearing or cylinder linning crack, all of these are possible and comparatively common but you waisted your money on an imsb, more to the point how pi##ed off will your partner be ;-)
I only know of one person that changes their IMSB after it started failing. That was 4 years ago and they haven't had any other issues with the engine. It's anecdotal but somewhat interesting none the less.
This. I bought early in 2016 and just focus on keeping it running free of codes. The cylinders will oval in the next 100k miles, but the biggest % risk is likely gone. If I need to rebuild sooner than 100k from purchase, those are the breaks. Absolutely love my 996. And the Solution lets you pare down the risk and focus on enjoying the drive. Resale is easier too, buyers in the know pay for the value a Solution offers.
so what I am discovering now is retro fits are as likely to fail as the original,
anyhow if you had a new one it should be good for at least as long as you have the car, here in UK average Porsche mileage is 8k pa average length of ownership 2 or 3 years
How did you come to this conclusion? The preponderance of data suggests otherwise.
Failure rates under warranty as produced by Porsche during the Eisen class action lawsuit point to a 8% failure rate for the single row and 1% for the dual row. Considering the IMS Retrofit has been around for almost 10 years, its track record speaks for itself.
There have been zero failures of any engine that was properly pre-qualified before an IMS Retrofit procedure was carried out. This is backed with zero failures of the Single Row Pro and Dual Row IMS Retrofits along with the IMS Solution.
No one is arguing with the choice of what kit to use or whether it is their choice to roll the dice on whether or not their bearing will fail. One fact for sure is that if the original bearing has started to fail or has failed, it's too late to change the bearing.
Another fact is that there are lots of things that can fail in an M96 engine, many of which result in collateral damage, including that of any engine part lubricated by engine oil.
Firstly you cannot say there have been zero failures of a retro fit unless you knew of every single retro fit to start with, as some retro fit cars might just end up as donor car becaues of their age, (and just look on this site for retro fit failers)
8% failure on a car with an average age of 15years = 5 cars out of every 1,000 will suffer this p.a. as most porshe owners keep their car for 2-4years that equates to 15 owners per 1,000 cars p/a (I will soon be on my third 911 in 3 years, Which would have cost me say $5,000 for retro fit)
Thats 0.005 you probably have a higher chance of getting shot but you don't go out with a bullet proof vest on.
Agreed. I cannot find fault in your logic as for some owners, they don't keep their car long enough to consider changing their IMS bearing. For most, it makes sense to wait until a clutch is needed or they are suffering from an oil leak from either the IMS or RMS. From that perspective, pulling the sump at every oil change and cutting open the filter along with shorter intervals between oil changes is the best thing to do.
But this is no condolence to the small percentage of owners that have their original IMS bearing fail, thinking they were one of the lucky ones that would not have a problem. In most those instances, owners could have afforded putting in an IMS Solution, but now can't afford to have the engine rebuilt correctly. In those instances, someone usually inherits the problem, either knowingly or most often, as a surprise after having purchased the car with a terminal condition.
And of course ther is the point that you could put the 1.7k towards a lower milage car or get the dual bearing one and the 1% factor, well if your worid about that failing 1% over 15 years 0.066% p/a maybe you should not be driving becaues all cars will fail at some point, So putting things in perspective your dual ome bearing is 6xmore likely to fail than you are likely to have a fatal car crash, obviously I don't want either to happen to anyone,
People don't change piston rings so they don't scratch linings, you don't change crank cos it might snap and wreck your engine.
Just don't like seeing people waste money on companies that scaremonger them into buying products,
get a warranty instead don't know how much they are in US but $1700 might get you 2or3years and that covers everything (almost) including recovery.
(ps I dont bother with warranties on my cars only the manufacturers warranty on new ones)
Ok I am now officially confused reading this thread has done me in. I have a 2001 996 c2 and last oil change before storing for winter had no foreign particles in the filter or filter canister. I did put in a LN magnetic plug.
Next spring I will be planning on a clutch replacement and while I am at it do the ims bearing as well. My question is what ims solution is considered the solution. Now that Porsche has got a kit do I use that or Mr. Navarro do I use yours {LN}? I forget who had a LN bearing done for $1750 and clutch replaced at $675 where the heck was that. It’s way below what I have been quoted heck I’ll drive the car there for that $2400 fix for clutch and bearing wow !
Advice and input would be greatly appreciated, thanks
Facts every 1,000 miles you drive you have less than 1:1400 chance of the bearing failing (approx)
so if you drove 1,400 996's for 1,000miles, chances are only 1 would have IMSB failure and you do the test again and 1 more would fail.
Hope this helps, but on this site everyone knows everything.
So Charles Navarro are still advocating your solution or is the kit that Porsche is offering is as good and if used they will warranty it for some time/miles? Would like your opinion
As with all replacement parts sold by Porsche, if they are not installed by the dealer, they are sold with zero warranty.
The only permanent fix is the IMS Solution, which backdates the IMS to a plain, oil fed bearing.
http://www.imssolution.com
The IMS Retrofit, although proven, is a service item, like any other ball or roller bearing replacement.
Buyer beware. If someone had the bearing done at $1750, they probably didn't even drain the oil and just topped it off, let alone do any part of a pre-qualification procedure.
Not every car should be retrofitted. There are plenty of engines that should be disqualified. We have turned down IMS installs in our shop when they fail pre-qualification. There are many shops that are interested only in your money and will gladly carry out the procedure on an engine that isn't healthy enough, or worse yet, install a new bearing after the original has failed.
If you belive wat people wright on here you have two parts to your bearing one part is on th IMshaft the other is in your oil filter :-)
seriously though I've heard it's very hard to tell without looking.
With whatever you do, very best of luck.
Charles, Why would you "assume" you know anything about my LN Pro install??
It was I that had the LN Pro installed for 1750 by a Porsche indy. And yes the job was done correctly; thank you for your concern. And I have purchased one of your oil filter adapters and the magnet. I respect LN tremendously but assuming only your certified installers can do and have done this job is absurd. And assuming the job has to cost more makes me think price fixing??
And one of your "certified" installers quoted me a number only 200 higher. But my dealer, who had the job done, before I would agree to complete the purchase, wanted someone "he" trusted to do the pre-qualification. Possibly my dealer has a relationship with this indy that lowers their hourly rate or maybe the certified installers charge too much?
Charles Navarro the price for the ims and clutch tocpd quoted in his post that�s where I got that. Does the seal on the Porsche kit not get eaten up from the acidity of the oil and thus the grease of the bearing melts out and leads to failure?
Do you have any authorized shops in Minneapolis? I think Imola does some of the ims repairs if they aren�t can you recommend anyone here in Minneapolis?
Todcp, to bad I live in Minnesota that was a great price you paid but what is the difference between LN Pro versus the ims solution is your fix have a direct oil feed ? What kind of clutch did you get with that price I doubt it but did that include a new flywheel also?
Also of note is Hagerty's values says the lack of a bearing upgrade is a 15% deduct. I figured in the cost for the LN Pro, RMS and Clutch vs the final price of my recently purchased 47,000 mile 2001 C4. Personally I would not have purchased a single row 996 without the upgrade and pre check first so that is why my dealer had it done for me prior to taking delivery. My dealer is a friend and after speaking with his preferred indy shop and two Porsche dealers agreed with my position.
My dealers preferred Porsche indy will only install LN products.
Not my intention to offend. You must have a very well maintained car that didn't need anything extra. Your Indy must have a very low overhead rate and is passing the savings along to his customers. Depending on the car, the job normally takes 10-14 hours, plus parts, so $1750 is a good deal for sure. In my experience, most of the cars that come to us need much more than just an IMS bearing.
Off the top of my head, I know you have Imola and Auto Edge in your area. Both do IMS installs I'm pretty sure. Have seen lots of registrations from Auto Edge over the years. I recommend contacting multiple shops before deciding which one you believe brings you the most value.
The grease seal itself just impedes exchange of oil in and out of the bearing, but only once the grease seal is compromised (hardening caused by high oil temperatures). If I were to install the factory Porsche bearing, I would still omit the grease seal so that the engine oil can properly lubricate the bearing. However, since a ceramic hybrid bearing has a lower lubrication requirement than conventional bearings, it might not be as critical as with the original factory bearing.
I went with the LN Pro as I would only be driving this car a few thousand miles per year. In hindsight I would have gone with Solution as I believe the design is far superior.
My clutch was only half worn on my 47,000 mile car so the flywheel was fine.
And apologies to Charles. I went to out to my car and found the invoice from the indy to my dealer for the work completed; I had not reviewed it before but it was in with my purchase paperwork. It appears my dealer ate a chunk of the indy's cost to him. So though my cost was $2300 on my purchase agreement my dealer was charged $2755. 1195 for labor on the LN Pro, Clutch Kit, RMS and Oil Service. Plus parts.
That’s more plausible, my goal is to be able to jump in my car roll the top down start it and be as worry free as possible. I understand this is moving metal and oil lubricates all the moving parts so anything is possible but a known defect can get fixed I’m all for it but I want to not worry about how many miles or whatever. So I think the direct oil feed is for me. Charles your video sure makes it look easy to replace that.
Hmm! IMS solutions so called Permanent fix only has a five year warranty, hardly permanent, whereas even a single row ome has a life expectancy of between 5 and 20years :-)
These are the same guys that put the bearing in there the 1st place. The same guys that wouldn't admit defeat until they were sued and lost in court.
There has been documented cases of porsche OE bearings failing after 1 year of service. There is also documented cases of LNE bearings failing.
not 1 failure for the solution though. None have been documented.
I know which one I would want with my 30k engine.
Probably the one I would go for, but if it's so good why not a lifetime warranty
I just get confused when people replace something which has nothing wrong with it if it had 50/50 cance of fail then ok, don't for get a 92-99% chance of not failing over 15-20 years is pretty good for any engine component.
Imagine if Elon Musk could do that :-)
I know, but if you market something as much better, why not put you money where you mouth is,
if these are that good it would cost the company absolute zero to do this.
Those of us who did our homework, know which one is the better solution. Most of us could care less for the warranty. If the part fails, you get your money back (that's the warranty). That will offer little condolences to that person who just lost their entire motor because of a $600-$1700 part.
in fact, it would be equal to a slap in the face after you just got dumped for your girlfriend cheating on you. Lol
^^This^^ - I replaced a LN Classic dual row with "The Solution" earlier this year. My cost for all the necessary tools and the Solution kit was a little shy of $2k. Since I'm not a "certified installer" there was never a question of whether I would have a warranty or not (NOT)... This doesn't bother me as the only thing covered would be the part anyway - while the bulk of cost is labor (so I paid myself the other $2-3k... that makes it a wash!
).
I do what I can to avoid dealing with people who ONLY buy something for a warranty. In my experience, these people are not pleasant to work with. My reconstructed engines have a 1 year unlimited mile warranty, and if someone thinks that's not enough, or asks me why, it proves to me that I don't want to provide an engine to that person. They are likely buying the engine, and making their selections for the wrong reasons. Be less concerned with that piece of paper, and more concerned with the effort, development, and honesty that you are getting under my roof. I typically respond to them "I can give you the phone number for a company that you can call that will tell you what you want to hear, and give you the warranty that you'd like. Its not my responsibility if their company goes out of business before your warranty expires, though". We deal with a lot of those types of flakes in this industry. Big warranty, big promises, big ads, big websites, smooth talk, and they change their business name 3 times in just one year....
Considering that the IMS Solution is my invention, you can guarantee that when I passed the torch on to those who would be selling these products, that I stressed, and recommended that the warranty not be extended beyond 30 days.. They didn't listen.
If it were me selling these units, they'd not even receive the 5 year warranty. Why? Well, I know all the things that can take out any IMS based product as a secondary failure. Since its easier to be a victim, than a failure, people are quick to jump to a conclusion and blame the part with the best reputation for their failure... If that product appears to be provided by a company with a lot to lose, or a lot to pay out, the blame is multiplied... That's the part of all this thats very unfair, and the reason why I have been out of this loop.
All of that said, the IMS Solution hit the market in 2012, and was used before that behind the scenes in my engines, only. If I had it to do over again, I would have kept my original plan, and only used these in my reconstructed engines, never letting go of the products to be sold to every shop, and person in the World. I guess when the copycats showed up in force, it pissed me off just enough to hand them their asses on a silver platter, and allow something to be sold that they could not compete with.
That said, my 3rd Patent for the IMS Solution art has been granted, and I just paid the issuing fee yesterday. It'll be issued within the next 30 days.
The moral of this story is to never buy something ONLY because of a warranty....
From reading on here most people at spending $2k-$3k for refit, that is a lot if there is nothing wrong with your engine.
I'm gonna upset some people now;
If your that insecure that you think your IMSb will fail don't buy a 996 or early 997 (95% chance it wont fail) better still buy a turbo or put a warranty on your car.
Am I the only one who thinks that $629 is a ludicrous amount for a bearing and a flange offered by a manufacturer that serves as a fix for a poor design that resulted in a class action suit that found in favor of the plaintiffs?
Happy BTW to have a Flat 6 installed IMS Solution but always interested in the IMS saga.
If you think that's a lot, you don't want to know the cost of the engine rebuild if that $600 part fails.
It's a small cost to pay for some peace of mind.
if you can't afford a $2-3k in prevantive maintenance, no porsche is for you.
Some people want what they want and don't want a turbo. Some people already have what they have and are trying to preserve their investment.
Being outside the US I'm not sure if you have a handle on: what aftermarket insurance costs here; what they will cover; if its even procurable; truly what a pain in the *** aftermarket insurers are to work with and how hard they fight to avoid paying claims; what peace of mind is worth to a 996 owner, ones who drive their cars regularly and on longer trips; and lastly what a new/rebuilt/replacement engine costs.
I just wish I could get everyone with a 996/997 to give me $500 and I woul happily guarantee their IMSB for life for every 1000 cars I would make $400,000 :-)
that would be about 6-9k saved up. Not even close to be enough funds for a rebuild. But almost half way there!
it's not even enough to buy a ****ty used engine. Lol
My rebuild cost me 18k CDN, all built by myself. Its nothing special either. bunch of OE parts bolted together. Good luck building what you want for under 20k.
Bolts alone was $2600 CDN.
allreadr done some;
82mm Ipd plenum and throttle body,
lightweight flywheel sport clutch pressure plate
Lsd
Sports headers
sports cats
intake
and some other bits can't remember oft the top of my head but total so far about �9k or $11k.
i went through a engine failure. (and I didnt try at all) I don't want to go through it again. you keep rolling the dice. Doesn't affect me at all. you'll never change my mind when it comes to this motor, Its fragile.
my is a low mileage 997s so maybe stronger maybe not, but in UK there is porshe specialist manufacturer of parts called hartech they do a engine stripdown upgrade 6 linings 6 pistons �7.5k so $9k ish including tax so with a few other bits $10k
and obviously if I want Crank upgrade extra 6k
and then I will have a super car. But it also becomes a curse, because once I spend that much I can never sell it as it would be totaling �55k $75k (including purchase price),
and in the UK upgrades devalue your car .
ironic cos when I bought mine it had to be original untouched condition full porsche history and now it's a different animal😀
If this was to me, yes I do think $600 is a lot for a kit to replace an item that was the focus of a lost class action suit. If anything it should be free like the poorly designed fuel flanges on my Cayennes, or the other 3 air shocks that are typically "goodwilled" when one goes bad, etc, or the first coolant repair cost on the Cayennes that had the sh**y plastic tubes in the intake valley. So there are known design/ issues whose resolutions are gratis and this bearing /flange kit is something that should be also after vetting of the vehicle by PCA. Labor no, parts yes so yup $629 is offensive and merely dumping salt in an open wound.
I do know what Porsche engine rebuilds cost and it's not a peace of mind issue for me- my 996 has The Solution installed (as does yours IIRC) so I sleep like a baby.
But IMHO this is not a PM issue- as though IMS's are wear items like wiper blades or brake pads. This helps fix a known issue with a huge downside for an owner that was caused by penny-pinching at corporate.
Porsche should do better than merely make a 2 piece kit available for $600. It sure doesn't cost Porsche $600 to manufacture...
I don't agree that it should be free. The chance of IMSB failure is very low. I think the bigger issue is porsche using ****ty materials to make their blocks/engine cases that eventually cause cylinders to taper and eventually score. I truly beleive this is the bigger issie with these motors and many more will suffer tapered or scored cylinders than blown up IMSB's. Many more.
If they should be sued for anything, it's this.
IMHO of course
Now we're getting closer to the real cost of an IMSB failure. 10K + 6K = �16K = $21,616 USD
That's REALLY different than 7K and remember that this is a .com not a .uk site.
Yep ok the 6k is for lightweight crank, the 10k is for complete rebuild it's unlikely you'll need all that this is just what I would do
but I wlould go for titanium conrods and the lightened crank for the hell of it
Yeh but don't be too harsh because if we didn't have porsche the only other options are ferrari and lambos and most of us on this site including me can't afford one, well not one worth having.
and it was 15-20 years ago most of these were made, in an era when most cars we doing less miles and had a life expectancy 10 years,
and I doubt they categorically knew the bearings would fail.
and just because they were sued and lost doesn't mean the court was right in its judgment. ( only in America :-)
Quite, mostly the companies with long warranties are the worst, they're just trying to give customers confidence to buy their product, unless it's an insurance backed lifetime warranty.
I had a highly qualified shop ( they have installed dozens of retrofits) put an LN Engineering retrofit into my 2002 996 with about 42,000 miles about 4 years ago. The retrofit failed after about 8 months and 2000 miles. I spoke to LN and asked them to throw me a bone and just refund my $630 for the part. They said the part is warranted for 3 months and there was nothing they would do (the equivalent of telling me to go pound sand). The shop (that will remain nameless) told me the same thing. After a $14 k rebuild I sold the car and got a 997 TT with the Metzger engine.
The plain bearing (IMS Solution) is not a wear part, it's like an
IMSb
in a Mezger - fit for the life of the engine & not a point of weakness.
The part is $1700 while a top-notch inspection and install is between $3500 and $5500, depending on the shop and parts involved. For example, my bill was around $5500 and included an engine out refresh of various washers, a new AOS, bolts, gaskets, etc to address things that were worn out from 13 years of use. That was 15,000 miles ago and my 996 continues to be as reliable as my Honda.
The ball bearing (single row, double row, 997 OEM, remanufactured OEM bearing, ceramic or steel, etc) is a wear part.
That's why the industry leader, LN, specifies a recommended replacement interval. The ball bearing design is inherently flawed in that the design is susceptible to wear in certain operating conditions that have been extensively covered on these forums. Saying "after XX,XXX miles it's not an issue" ignores the fundamental problem that ball bearing IMS designs wear and eventually need replacement.
Once you go past those
fundamental truths of IMS bearings
, you can move to the next step: what works for me? The safety profile of the LN bearings is extremely good, and it's reportedly perfect for engines that were formally inspected before install to ensure they're healthy. Tolerances, wear, cylinder health, etc all get inspected when you go with an LN-certified shop retrofit. That's what I did when I had the Solution installed. The bill was expensive, but I already priced in the retrofit before I bought the car. And it's been smooth sailing since then. If I was shopping for a 996 today, I would be open to buying a car with a ball bearing retrofit, it's a perfectly acceptable part to have in the car. A pre-inspection by a certified LN installer adds to the safety profile as that group is mindful of the issues that pop up in the m96, and they're incentivized to be honest about engine condition at the time of inspection.
Failing that quickly after a retrofit means either God hates you, the engine was failing, or the bearing was installed improperly. Since the installer didn't inspect the engine beforehand, we'll probably never know the answer.
I don't know , but I had one poor soul that had a 2004 Targa that I put 2 factory complete engines in before it had 10k miles !! It was under warranty and he didn't have to pay a dime , but was still not happy being on this 3rd engine, but it made him feel a little better to have the "new" large single row bearing on the last engine. The RO total was 30k on the last engine and probably not much less on the first one.
This is why we require registration including sending in the original bearing and require the shop to follow our pre-qualification procedures. If this isn't done, it doesn't matter if it is a 30 day warranty like on the classic single row, 2 year warranty on the Single Row Pro/Classic Dual, or 5 year on the IMS Solution? How do we know the installation was properly qualified.
Not to say this individual did or did not call us, but we do offer various levels of assistance, but it requires some cooperation from the customer including sending in the original bearing and shaft. Some have been gracious and I will typically be more gracious in my offering some level of goodwill regardless of the situation and the opposite if you call and don't want to play by the rules.
I've looked at your website and all the requirements involved that the qualified shop has to do when they replace the IMS, send in old bearing, sample of oil, etc. What does your warranty really cover? Seems only top grade 996s would be granted a warranty under your system. But what is the warranty? I'm in the hunt for a 996 and will prob get the IMS done
My father used to tell me to always treat people like you would want to be treated...and every once in a long while, one will return the favour. Charles is one of those rare examples.
What I look for is if the pre-qualification procedure is followed and the installation is properly registered, including sending the original bearing.
The warranty is a parts only warranty, like every aftermarket or OEM part. Where having a shop do the installation provides an extra layer of protection is that depending on the shop, they will provide a labor warranty. Shops that buy from SSF Auto Parts for example get a 2 year/24k mile parts/labor warranty on most everything they purchase.
That said, like I mentioned on another thread in response to another member's question, there have been no failures of the Single Row Pro, Classic Dual, or any IMS Solution product. The best warranty is one you don't need to use.
Charles thanks for clarifying that...In the end part & labor warranty would amount to nothing if the engine failed, its a good thing there's been no failures ...Good to know
The "restriction block" usually means the part is in limited supply and that Porsche wants to control the limited inventory. Basically to keep some of the high volume supplyers from ordering a large quantity and leaving other small volume dealers from having access, so they are "restricted" to "special case ordering". The parts manager would have to place a special request and possibly provide a RO number and VIN number to order.
Trying to avoid getting into the above back & forth but I was recently at St Louis Porsche (Indigo group) for a state safety/emissions inspection and I asked the service advisor about IMS replacement. He told me that while Porsche has their own kit now they use LNE kits. He stated that the Porsche kit might have the same issues as the original IMSB as Charles wrote. Says something to me that they prefer LNE over Porsche.
I called a friend in Stuttgart. They are available in Germany 401 Euro plus 19%. Flange another 82 Euro plus 19%. Do your own local currency conversions.
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
