I think I just got burnt!

Backstory: I purchased a 1999 996 C2 6 speed with 113k miles. The owner was selling the car because he was moving his family to Arizona for work and didn't want to take the car with him. We talked extensively about the car over the course of a few weeks and he seemed honest and **** about the vehicle. He is an engineer and seemed mechanically inclined. Earlier in this process the owner told me that he had changed over to 20w50 the last oil change because they were moving to Arizona. I was a little on edge over this, but was sure any problems would be caught during the PPI. He agreed on doing a PPI, no hassle involved. I called the nearest Porsche dealership in Illinois and they said they wouldnt do a PPI due to lawsuits in the past. I found a guy in Decatur, Illinois to look the car over. The mechanic wasn't a Porsche expert but worked on euro cars for the last few decades. He performed an oil change, Mobil 1 5w40 and I told him to drive the car around for an hour to see if there were any odd noises. Nothing reported and he said the car was in great condition. My wife and I decide to take the 7 hour trip out to Illinois to look over and listen to the car. Car sounded great on a cold start up and after driving it for 10 miles I took it back to the sellers house and listened to it again. I didnt notice anything particularly alarming. The transaction took place and we were on our way. My wife and I drove 60 miles on the highway and stopped in Campaign, Illinois. Who doesn't like checking out beautiful college towns full of optimism. We check in at the hotel and I hear a noise nobody wants to hear. I park the car and grabbed a few videos which are posted below. Sounds like 100 percent engine knock to me. Question is was the guy hiding this with the 20w50 oil or did I get struck by lightning? I talked to the owner and I could hear the concern in his voice. He said he wouldnt take the car back but didn't want to screw anyone over. We agreed to get the car looked at and I would get in contact with him. Maybe he'd give me some money back, I don't really know. At this point I'm pretty bummed and wanted to hear what your thoughts are. Do I ditch the car here 6 hours from home and rent a car? With all intentions to eventually ship it on a truck to a Porsche mechanic in Ohio or somewhere else. Or should I drive it home and just deal with it. If you were wondering I paid 14.5k. You Tube You Tube

I have to ask. You checked the oil level with the dipstick and it's fine? Oil pressure is fine? No apparent leaks?

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Oil fluid level is fine I just checked it. On a cold start the engine goes up to 5 and drops down after warming up. It idles at about a 2. On the drive after paying for it, it consistently stayed a notch under a 4 on the gauge. This was driving at 77mph over the span of an hour.

Unlikely the PO switched to 20w-50 oil to hide something. Once even 20w-50 oil is up to temperature it flows about as readily as 5w-50 even 5w-40 and 0w-40. (With either 0w-40 or 5w-50 oil in my Boxster or Turbo I can't tell which oil is which based on engine noise at start up or at any other time. With the Turbo and its oil pressure gage the hot idle oil pressure is about the same. Now if you told me the engine oil smelled like transmissioni fluid.... 75w-90 will quiet an engine.) The noise doesn't have to be an internal engine noise. Could be an exhaust leak even a loose spark plug. Did the PPI involve a compression test? Or perhaps the tech just pulled a plug or two? If so he could have failed to properly tighten a plug. I'm always reluctant to say continue to drive the car. The odds are the car is ok but in case I'm wrong (and I hope I'm wrong about being wrong) my advice would be to seek out a place, a Porsche shop which means you'll probably need to hang around until Monday, where you are to have the car looked at and the noise diagnosed, or arrange to have it flat bedded to your favorite Porsche shop where you live. If the noise is not coming from the engine -- or is coming from the engine -- a tech should be able to determine that without much effort. If out side the engine then a plug or exhaust leak most likely. But he should check the accessory drive system for any signs of trouble from that area. (When on the start of a long road trip it was a bad idler roller bearing I heard that cut short my road trip until I could get the car repaired.) And I second rockhouse66's about checking the oil level.

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Post number 3 explains what's going on with the oil pressure. I didn't have a compression or leakdown test performed on the engine. I agree with you that its unlikely the previous owner ran the thicker oil to hide a problem. In this day and age you have to question people's intentions. It didnt seem like they were strapped for cash.

I don't know anything about this shop from personal experience but have read they do good work on Porsche's and they are in Champaign IL Rick's Automotive Service 54 E. Springfield Ave [phone removed] Good luck

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I screwed the pooch with the PPI and should have sent it there to begin with. Hindsight is 20/20. I'm planning on being at their garage Monday morning. Thankfully its a block from the hotel.

Are you serious? You bought an 18 year old with 113K miles car based on a PPI from a shop you selected and you think you got burned because you don't like how it sounds now that you own it? This is why I hate selling cars to individuals. Drive the car home or flatbed it if you think it necessary. You did not get burned. You bought a used car. The seller acted honorably. Rant over.

1,000% with you. This one has a failed cylinder, possibly two. It probably happened over the winter (like always) and just had enough run time now to show it's self. Had 6 of these calls last week, all cylinders, all in the mid- west (except on in Canada). April and May are the times when we see these particular reports skyrocket annually. I can have it picked up on Monday :-)

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I seem a lot more calm over this entire situation than you. I appreciate your insight, thanks.

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif

Knocking bad she's done.

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take it easy buddy, deep breaths .....

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Classy. Backhand insult to the OP, later followed by a business plug.

Take it one step at a time. Go to the shop on Monday that is a mile from the hotel. See what they say. Good luck.

Whats wrong with a business plug from one of the best if not the best in the industry? I'd take Jake up on his offer and have it trucked right to him if it where me...Why not?

You were not burned. The ppi was done to your satisfaction by the shop of your choice. Further you had the shop drive it around for an hour. This met your criteria for being satisfied with the car and proceeded to purchase it. If something has gone wrong after it was not on the seller. He was honourable in the transaction. The thread title needs a change.

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What's the insult? That he agrees 1000% that's why he hates selling cars to individuals - quite a reach on your read of the post.

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Jamie, the thread title was open to interpretation. I mentioned there was a slight possibility I was screwed over and then noted I thought it was doubtful. I was burnt because I was struck by lightning. Its pretty rare to be struck by lightning and in my opinion after months of research, it is rare for a car to start knocking after 60 miles of ownership. I wrote this thread within an hour of noticing the knock, so you could imagine the thoughts that were going through my head. You're right, I could have used a less ambiguous word, because lightning leaves more than a burn. I don't know how well you follow the board, but there have been two cars that had 20w50 in them this week that have had substantial problems. Mine is likely a worst scenario. I reacted the way I did because of this information and I was a little suspicious off the bat. I should have spent more money and got the best car I could afford, oh well. IIll sum this all up as some bad luck and poorly done due diligence on my part. Oh well to be 28 married and without kids. Thankfully we will be fine due to good jobs and great savings habits. The question that remains is should I do a Raby stocker build, a Raby 3.4 to 3.6, a Raby stage II, or an ls3 swap? I think there are also a few used m96 engines floating around the board, but what fun would that be.

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Until it goes to a competent mechanic I think your just grabbing idea's out of the air. Pretty hard to diagnose from a youtube video, kind of like exhaust shopping they all sound great on youtube.

Let's get the easy one out of the way... does the seller bear any responsibility? Absolutely not, for a whole bunch of reasons. The most basic being 'buyer beware.' With any private party sale of a used item, no matter what the seller says, it is 100% the buyer's responsibility to do their due diligence. The OP did make an effort to do this. My opinion is the PPI was crap. I wonder, and I seriously doubt, the mechanic drove the car for a full hour (which may have discovered the problem). Did the mechanic examine the old filter? Either way that's in the past. Moving forward you are about $15K in on this one. The car needs to go to a true expert to properly diagnose the issue and fix it. I would flatbed the car to an expert you trust and take it from there.

Personally I would be driving it home.

When I sell a car, or any vehicle, my bill of sale is very explicit. Car is as is. Where is. No guarantees at warranties. If this thing explodes 10 seconds after you leave, it's yours. If the devil incarnate comes out of the exhaust, it's yours... Thankfully, never had issues... On the flip side,bought an atv this weekend... Got home, found missing wiring, burned bulbs, water in the gear fluid, hacked wiring, broken brake fluid bleed valves, yes, etc... Didn't matter. My problem. Fixed it all... When buying a used vehicle, buy at a price you are comfortable at, should the @@@@ hit the fan... A 996 with a 115k miles on it didn't have much longevity left. For a stock 996, that's a lot of mileage... To cheer you up, that may not be rod knock. Could be something loose or another issue. Hire a tow truck, haul it home, and then worry about it...

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I've thought about it, a lot can go wrong in a six hour drive. I need to get the car back to Ohio regardless because they require a VIN inspection on vehicles at the BMV. Once I get it home I will be shipping it.

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See, I can't do that.... Even if the person accepts all those things, then its still my fault if they feel they got burned... Why? Because its easier to be a victim, than a failure. Even when we work with a local dealer, and stay completely disassociated with the purchase, I still fear that some jerk is going to invent a problem, and make it mine.

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We'd be happy to help you ship it, even if it doesn't come here. We ship over 100 Porsches per year, all over the USA and Canada, I have excellent mid- west haulers.

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it didn't have much longevity left? Really?? I think Riad would disagree since his C4S just went kaput at 215,000. And the guy in the other recent thread who just turned 100,000 and was looking forward to 100,000 more. And I still don't understand why certain posts are going after the OP for the title of his thread or with that buyer beware BS. He never attacked the seller and hasn't requested any advice on litigation, etc. The dude is upset that his excitement in the purchase and planned road trip back almost immediately ended in frustration. He's going to get it diagnosed and taken care of so chill out fellas.

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Thanks man. I was expecting to get another 100,000 miles out of the vehicle, so my vibe was definitely killed yesterday. One of the things I've learned in life is that I tend to have bad luck in everything outside of women and work. My situation could definitely be worse.

Well said. Sadly,sometimes Rennlist is just an opportunity for the anger management candidates to display their ugly symptoms. Back to the subject. I had a similar 'experience' .Engine failure in less than 200 miles after purchase. Since then I have learned a lot about the M96 ! That's life - it doesn't last very long ,so enjoy as best you can . You could claim the M96 can be rather fragile until it is upgraded. So this is a great opportunity to do that. Unfortunately (like me) you bought an over-priced "Roller". The real debate is : do you fit a good-used replacement or get yours rebuilt+upgraded ? We'll be with you whatever you want to investigate. Been there, done that !

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If these are options available to you they are your best options!

First off, we need to see if I can repair the engine. At that time I'l know what collateral damage exists, and if a repair doesn't fit the picture, then we'll know what to do from there. No other approach makes sense. With 113K on the clock, its worth repairing an updating, as long as the issue isn't terminal, or the collateral damage isn't too wide spread. The used engine is like someone else's X wife, you usually end up finding out why he got rid of her. Today a good used engine is like a piece of precious metal, and they really don't exist. For the LS, well, that would be your choice, but if I wanted an LS, I'd just sell the car broken and buy a damn Vette....Thats just me. Now, make sure that whomever locally that tries to diagnose the engine doesn't run it as part of the process. With every rotation of the crankshaft more and more damage is being done. This is taking out the heart of the engine through the possibility of debris passing through the oil system, and etc. I see people diagnose these things to death all the time. Just the amount of time the engine was ran to shoot that video rendered more damage done to the components of the engine. We push cars around the shop, and won't start them, until an invasive inspection is carried out to see what's going on. One second separates life from death, resurrection, and salvation possibilities. No noise is a good noise within an engine. Once we see if the engine is repairable or not, then the choice can be made with good judgment. How long you want to be without the car determines a lot in regard to my program, where nothing big bore happens fast. Calendars, and clocks don't impact things around here.

Gnar I have an 05 4S with 112k on it. I had a VERY SIMILIAR tic in the motor and of course feared the worst. Had it flatbedded to Vortex Motorsports in Tampa. They diagnosed the problem as a failed Catalytic converter. I said "how sure are you? they said 100%. Had the old cats replaced with new xpipe hi flows 200 cel cats. It now runs perfect. My tic was very noticeable out of the driver side exhaust. Good Luck

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I would send it directly to Jake for his opinion! I have a FSI engine, and developed a great relationship with Jake during my engine build. Jake's knowledge of these engines is a well known established fact. Jake's word is gold with me. My FSI engine is a beautiful thing, delivered on time, without hassles, turn-key, and ready to rumble.

My 996 was with me for 11 years, had 125K on it, and I was always worried about bearing failure. I left my house after warming it up, drove less than a mile and suffered "D chunk", no warning at all. I had never heard of it before, until after it happened, lol.

Mode of failure #2 of 29! I hear that all the time on the failure hotline.... Most people are buying these cars with no understanding of what can happen. I see this mostly from the older folks that in general, do not fancy online forums, facebook, and etc. Unfortunately these folks make up a large part of 996 buyers these days.

I've been in your shoes. it sucks, a lot. Feel your pain.

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Going into the purchase I knew dann well what I was getting myself into. Life goes on. To be honest, the reality of having to do a rebuild isn't that bad when new displacements are involved. I know Jake's work pretty well and the idea of having a upgraded race engine along with the ims solution seems ideal. Some people pay for medicine to help with their M96 anxiety, I'd rather pay to have the engine fixed correctly.

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The average new Hondas or toyotas can reasonable do 125,000 to 150,000. That's a car that drives at 1500 rpm most of its life. Some of these car do a million miles, but most don't. Go on cars.com and search for cars with 150,000+ miles. Rare. Maybe I am old school, but once my cars hit 100k miles I figure I am driving on borrowed time, and anything can happen. To expect a sports car, that gets rung out to 6000 rpm on a regular basis, to last much over 100,000 miles is optimistic. The old bullet proof cars needed valves and other work at 100k miles. A 996 motor, or boxster motor, is not an 911 sc motor. The 996 motor is blessed with self destructive tendencies, that will occur as mileage rises. Despite that, I was thinking about picking up a high mileage 996 or boxster as they are dirt cheap. But I have realistic expectations. To buy a 115,000 mile Porsche for peanuts and expect longevity doesn't sync with my life experiences. Sure, some cars may make 200,000 miles. Some grenade at 30,000 miles. Anything over 100,000 miles is a gift...

There are few cars as expensive to own as a 'cheap' Porsche. Ask me how I know ..... Caveat Emptor.

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I fear I'm in this camp too. The good news is once we have fixed all the issues, we hopefully rest easier than the lucky bastards that have yet to have any major/terminal issues. Its life, and as you suggest you get to play the upgrade game, and for those in the know, Jake's engines are probably one of the few things you can do to a 996 that seems to actually add value. (I have no affiliation and am not using his services for my rebuild BTW). I thought about an LS swap, but a Frankenporsche is just that. A 911 has a flat 6, that is just how it is. We will get to drive them like we stole them once fixed, and damn the dent to the wallet. Good luck and enjoy the process.

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Thanks for being positive, that's the kind of feedback I was looking for.

I love my 996 and all, but if it blew up tomorrow I don't think I love it enough to spend more than its original cost to me to get the engine rebuilt. Blasphemy, I know.

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You sound totally clueless and should be over in the Ford Motors Forum. 911's have no problem reaching 175 - 200K miles when properly serviced. As a matter of fact, if your price point is limited, it is sometimes wise to buy a 911 at the 100K mark considering major services like clutch/suspension/belts are ready for another 75K. Op hope your car has minor issue and all the best.

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Thanks my car has been serviced and taken care of. I don't think it was driven too much this winter, which we all know is a no no with these engines. It came with a 3" binder of documents dating back many years.

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We are talking about 996s, right? Would love to see evidence of all the cars with 175,000 miles. Good to hear. Thanks. Having owned a 911s, 911sc, 930, 996, boxster s, 914, 944turbo, etc, etc... Nice to be clueless... Older 911s are durable, 996s and boxsters aren't. That's why they are cheaper than a toyotas when you hit 100,000 miles. Boxsters can be bought for $6000. Even 911s may need expensive work to go over 100k miles... Not all, but many. Anything from head studs, to leaking heads, to valve guides, to thermo reactors, Yada, Yada... 930s often need valve jobs at 60-70,000 miles. The older Porsches were known for durability. The 996, not so much. That's pretty self evident. And I love Porsches. Have since I was a kid. But to confuse a 996 with 100,000+ miles with reliability, is wishful thinking. There is a reason flat 6 is busy... The op isn't into his car for a lot of money. He has options. Hell, the car might be just fine.

At some of todays prices you can almost buy em, drive em , break em, sell the roller and then buy another, rinse and repeat...

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Or buy them and never drive them so they don't roll past 100,000 miles and you can sleep soundly every night.

It's not just the mileage, my '99 just turned 19 years old in March! It has 90k miles on it and was still running strong on the original engine. How is that a durability issue? Especially when you take into account the number of years it could have gone without proper maintenance. For a highly engineered, high performance German sports car, these things are remarkably durable. The last UOA before I pulled the engine came back very clean. But 1 month from now it will return with a Flat 6 Innovations 3.8l Track Performer Engine. OP, FYI, my DMV accepted a picture of the VIN and Mileage from the other car I have at FSI for registration purposes. And as every other customer of theirs will tell you, if you with go with FSI and follow their recommendations, you will be very pleased with the experience and the results.

The car is currently at Rick's. Its not making the same noise as posted in the video. All we are hearing now is a noisy lifter. I'm still against driving the car. We are going to take a wait and see approach until he has some time to actually look at the vehicle and hook it up to the duramatic.

These engines don't have noisy lifters.... Maybe 1 in 1,000 do.... The last "lifter job" I did was in 2007, and thats the last time we ran across a bad lifter that was noisy. Approach with extreme care, failing cylinders always fool people, as it sounds exactly like a lifter... Exactly. Same note, same tone, same rhythm and the noise emanates from the cam cover. This one bites a lot of people, including dealerships. I had a 996 here last year that had two lifter jobs from the same dealer. They charged the guy 14K, to do the work, and the issue was a failing cylinder that I diagnosed in 5 minutes.

So, oil changed from 20w50 to Mobil 1 5w40 as part of the PPI... Then, after the car gets a chance to fully cool down after a good 60 mile drive, you start to hear knocking... If it were me and the car started knocking so soon after this change, I would have probably taken the car straight to an oil change place and had them change the oil right back to a 20w50 and taken a careful look at what, if anything, comes out with the drainage. At this point, what's to lose except the cost of 10qts of oil? Even the filter could probably be reused (assuming it comes out clean with the 5-40). At minimum, it would be interestng to hear if the knocking goes away after switching back to the thicker oil... Would that be a bad idea? If so, why?

I agree.... Then the chances of the OP "getting burnt" go up a lot, as I'd suspect someone used the high viscosity oil as a band aid. They may have also had something in that oil, like "Motor Honey".

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Definitely not blasphemy dude... you'd be surprised how many people that own these cars drive them without the constant worry of something going wrong at any minute or carelessly dumping money into them for no reason. Good preventive maintenance and care will keep these cars running a long time. Heck, even if your car grenades itself and you wanna get rid of it as a roller on Craigslist... always be positive!... For example, when you're writing the description, tell the potential buyers you got the exclusiv Porsche engine delete option. Bingo!

Alright this car is going to Jake and we are going to turn it into a 3.8l with the track setup.

Congratulations !

Nice!

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I'll let everyone know what we find when we tear into it. Failure can be disguised as opportunity. Its all in perception.

The glass is always half full and not empty! FSI!

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Nope.... the glass is not big enough.

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You're going to need it when you get the bill from Flat6. haha...

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if car is found fit/healthy enough...best move ever CONGRATS AND BEST OF LUCK!

Congrats on the 3.8l! If you look at the money you will have in the car and compare it to what else you could buy for that, there is nothing even close. Not to mention once you fall in love with the quirkiness of the 911, nothing else will do.

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I'm beyond excited for the entire process. I'm also anticipating the entire tear down process, so Jake can fill us in on what occurred with the engine.

^ ***** Warning! ***** Warning! ***** Warning! ****** Warning! ****Warning! Exciting Times Ahead!!!!! One of the many pictures of my engine tear down.. Congratulations!!

Curious to know what the Indy told you about the noises that prompted you to leap directly to what sounds like a drastic solution to an unknown issue? Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a FSI engine.

Sorry to hear the situation OP However, subscribed! Please keep the pics coming

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I hold Jake a notch above anyone in the industry due to his team's communication, knowledge, and enthusiasm. They are a notch above the rest. I didn't have time to dick around and deal with two shops and felt it wasn't worth taking half measures. I'm sure we will find out what happened here in due time. The question I asked myself was why 'fix' a car that may have engine problems further down the road. I would rrather start fresh and be able to do drivers ed with a more than capable engine.

some pictures of the car before the issues started.

The car looks particularly good in the last photo

Great looking car - good luck with the FSI upgrade. Saggy exhaust tips = worn motor mounts?? I'm sure FSI will check.

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Motor mounts, exhaust, and fixing little suspension noises were first on my list.

Also subscribed...

Car is being picked up today in Champaign. I can't thank the team at FSI enough. I've spoken with Jake and Jud and they are both top notch. The previous owner stepped up and is paying for the flatbed down to Georgia. Stay tuned

Cudos to the PO.

That's great news all the way around. Can't wait for the updates.

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I'm also interested in this question.

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The shop owner I took the car to thought everything sounded fine. The engine wasn't making the noise in post #1. At that point, I didn't feel like dicking around anymore and my wife and I needed to get moving back home for work. Ultimately, I wanted FSI working on the engine, so there was no reason to spend additional money at another shop. I talked to the shipping company today and they said it should be delivered to FSI by morning.

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Rod knock doesn't go away... My 930 was making some noises too, and of course being the paranoid owner I am I figured the worst. Figured rod knock, or some other malady. Then it went away. Tracked it a ton since, no issues... Turned out it was a funky exhaust baffle or something similar. No issues in 3 years... Good luck...

The 996 has arrived.. It made it in less than one day, and we landed at almost 1,000.00 less shipping than the quotes that the OP was able to gather in his quest for shipping of the car. We'll get it diagnosed in a few days.

Good: car Better: attitude Best: girlfriend You're in good hands.

subscribed to see if build ends up being more than the cost of the car. Threads like these reminds me why I have a Z06 along with my 911.

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At this point in the game that is a given.

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In that case, its not because the engine costs too much, its because the car was too cheap. This is why my first question to the owner of this car was the same as every owner I talk to: "Do you love the car?" If the answer is anything but "YES!" then I generally tell them they are talking to the wrong person. None of this is new.... Guess how many 15,000 dollar engines I built for 912s that were worth 10k ay the time? How many people spent twice what their 964 was worth to just repair the 30 oil leaks that it had? Yes, this isn't new, the heart of a Porsche is the engine, and real solutions cost real money. No matter what the car cost, the engine always costs the same... When these cars were new, or near new I charged the same amount for an engine as I do today, and that won't change. It will only go up.

Subscribed. I love my car.

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I agree with what you are saying here. Some times a car can be worth more to a person than what market value says. And if this was the case I wouldn't talk anyone out of doing this build. It would be like telling someone "why get a dog, its just going to die some day". But I doubt this is the case here. OP just got this car so cutting losses and starting over with something nicer might be a viable option.

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I see no point in cutting my losses and starting over with something 'nicer.' There is no guarantee that buying a nicer 996 or 997 will be problem free. I would rather start over with a rebuilt engine that will be more reliable and robust than any of the stock engines. I love the 996 and will have one of the nicer naturally aspirated versions when it is all said and done.

3.8 build! Now we're talkin' - Following with interest.

Following. Can't wait to see the progress.

It would be very cool if someone posted a 3.8L track performer dyno against a stock 3.6L m96.

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Not for me.. Nothing brings out the opinionated smart asses like a dyno graph. All they know how to do is look at the peak output differences, they never judge engines my way, which is average power from 1,500- 7,000 RPM. Thats the reason why I never advertise power. The other reason is because no two of my engines are the same. Some drivers want more torque, other more top end power, so the same engine displacement may have a 2,000 RPM difference in optimum RPM, and 30 HP difference in HP. At the end of the day, no one is buying a dyno graph from me. If thats all they care about, I usually send them to guys that can give them what they want to hear, and see.

Congrats to the OP for making a great choice. Better get things fixed properly at the first time then dick around a bunch, spend loads of money then say goodbye to the car unhappy. Yep, it might be 15-20k but if that is what it is worth it to you, why not? The WORST you can do is doing things half and then be sorry afterwards. It ain't worth it IMHO. Volkert

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Thanks man I couldn't agree with your statement more. It pretty much sums up my logic behind getting this engine rebuilt the correct way. Ill have years of worry free joy out of this vehicle after it returns, which is something not all 996 owners can say.

Here is a realated experience I had just today. The OP's car had (?) 20-50 oil to conceal(?) an engine defect and then quickly started to fail. Worked on an M96 today where the owner complained of a red oil pressure warning light. To 'fix' the light he did an oil change with 20-50 + some Bardahl "No Smoke" and maybe some other snake oil. The red light was still on . I did a quick oil pressure test but noticed when I connected the gauge that there was no oil at the sensor - not a drop ! And of course zero pressure. When I disconnected the gauge from the cam cover, there was no oil on the fitting - not a drop ! Yikes - no oil to the cams and lifters for how many miles? Removed the spin-on oil filter ,quick,very short burst on the starter - oil gushes - good. Cut open the filter. The pleats are super clean BUT pleats had collapsed got squished in a spiral. Caused by the thick oil ? Dropped the pan - no debris Removed the oil pump spring. The piston finally dropped out a few minutes later.Replaced with upgraded spring and piston(beveled edge). Coated Pump piston with super slick assy lube and refitted. New filter,fresh 10-40 . Full pressure restored.No red light. Moral of the story - The 'treatment' in the OP's case 20-50 oil ,may have been worse than the original disease ? In the case I have outlined a simple oil+filter change with the correct grade of oil(Summer in L.A.) would have probably solved the problem. It could not have made things worse. So for the OP - it may be interesting to ask Jake what the pleats look like? BTW - the Longacre filter cutter cost $66 - useful investment. I mention this because it is an easy fix and the cut open filter is a useful show&tell. Good luck with your project

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What type of spin on filter was it? Could they have used the filter for too many miles causing it to collapse?

NAPA . Age is unknown but it the pleats were brown(not blackened) and oil was clean. We'll be checking it again soon in case there is some problem with the oil pump creating way too much pressure.But how/why? My hunch is that with the correct oil and no thickeners it will be fine. Fortunately testing oil pressure is a quick and easy job on an M96 .

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Slightly concerning that it failed, I have a Nappa Gold on mine (which I thought were made by WIX).

Not to worry if you have no low oil pressure red warning light . And if you use the correct grade/weight oil

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Thanks, maybe its worth carrying around a spare filter and bottle of oil just in-case! Although having said that if I see that light come on i'm getting it flat bedded immediately!

How would an oil filter collapse? Don't they all have a high pressure bypass? older cars run 20/50 all the time... no issues...

The M96 ain't no older engine ! It will bite you hard every time you ignore that. Ultra high pressure because of the high viscosity + a manufacturing defect ? Center tube must have collapsed. There is also a pressure relief valve in the oil pump. https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...SpAp9WMzldazX5

Filters do crush.. Because they are low quality, generally. Older cars run 20/50 with luck because they have more open internal clearances. Sometimes these clearances are 2-3X more "open" than a modern engine thats designed to operate with light oil.

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Or could be free.... Damn, I'll use that one in the future!

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while many here will say a bullet is cheaper, they've never got to love an animal like you (or your wife) have. that in itself is a shame. nothing wrong with dropping that kind of coin on something you love.

That's absolutely true. However, I would rather euthanize a pet than have it live in prolonged agony because I'm unwilling to cope with its death. If an intrusive procedure has a 90% success rate and will prolong life by years, absolutely. If it's a long shot or if it's just delaying an inevitable hard decision, I'd rather help one old friend go on home and then go find a new friend who needs a home... Life is simpler if the guy watching your cat is a retired Navy Chief with zero tolerance for crap. Love the guy. Here's the note I left him when he watched the cat while Ms. Schnell and I took a trip a few years back. I realize a 9mm is overkill for a cat, but the Chief is probably going to double-tap anyway, so he's welcome to blast away with whatever he sees fit. As a recently-converted dog person, I will admit that I would spend more to keep my dog alive than my cat. We have always had a $1K cut-off for the cat; if it's gonna cost more than a grand and/or the cat's going to suffer, there are plenty of cats that aren't dying who need homes. But Pee Pee Eye enjoys life so much, I admit I don't know what the limit would be. Hope I never have to find out. How's OP's car doing?

Any news on the engine diagnosis? I am really curious.

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Also subscribed and checking back daily for an update Looking forward to some current and active technical reading material.

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FSI is real busy this time of the year, but I'm pretty sure my vehicle is on their radar. On top of all the failures that occur this time of they year, FSI just hosted an engine building class, that takes up several days. I'm sure they will get around to pulling the engine in the next several weeks. Stay tuned. In unrelated news, we had to put down our most recent addition to the family. We adopted a senior dog last weekend that had a myriad of issues. I came home Saturday and he suffered a stroke/seizure that left him stationary. When we took him to the emergency vet he couldn't sit, stand, lay without support. While at the dog ER he had another stroke/seizure which made the decision to let him pass easier. It was a tough weekend because the poor guy had been neglected his whole life. Thankfully we were able to show him the unconditional love he deserved. At least he died knowing he was loved. End of sob story.

Sorry for your loss...

Sorry about the dog. As much as that sucks, it's also a reminder that there are bigger fish to fry in life than an undiagnosed engine issue. I hope you guys wind up deciding to rescue another dog...there are plenty of 'em needing homes.

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I had a similar comment earlier but the mods removed it for some reason. Probably because saying "sorry for your loss" could technically still be applied to your motor?

We just finished extracting the engine from the BAT 996. gnarboski's car is next, though its likely 3 weeks away. He's on my reconstruction side of the house now, so in that case we'd likely wait 6-7 months before extracting the engine. In this case I will do it when we can, so you guys will be satisfied :-)

Subscribed for the update. ...'bout update time?

^x2!

*3

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

The paperwork that I have, states the car will be done around Feb 28th and the car needs to be at FSI by Nov 1st. Any activity that happens before then is a plus that goes above and beyond what I expect. I really don't care when activity starts on the car because the end result and timeline will stay the same. Its actually been a nice few weeks, I've pushed the car into the attics of my life. You should try researching vehicles for around a year knowing the failure points. Then when you finally pull the trigger, the car self destructs 70 miles into your ownership. So goes life, at least my golf game has been getting much needed attention.

So, it is just going to get pulled and built and nobody will know the story? You should put a warning at the beginning of this post that you are wasting your time reading it if you want to know what happened to the motor! It is like reading a who dunnit novel only to find out it was nobody's fault just an accident.....

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I don't recall typing that in this thread. There will be updates and plenty of fun stuff to come.

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Obviously you don't read much, there is a time line and a wait list with a reputable builder that will update us once he gets to it... post #112 will clue you in.

Was thinking about your thread last night and reread most of it this morning... Such a shame , it must be so frustrating to think that it all started back in April and here we are in July and you still don't have your car. I'm a relatively new owner, 3 years this past June, and picked up mine under similar circumstances (we drove up to Virginia and back to Tampa) but with much different results. I'm hoping that it all works out well for you. Ralph

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Thanks for the kind words man. The furthur removed I get from when this happened, the more I think I got fleeced. Its a lesson learned about the inherent evils of the human race. The guy told me he listened to the car with a stethoscope haha, I should have ran when he let that one slip coupled with the thicker oil. These are things that needed mentioned when I asked is there anything odd about the csr when we started the process. Not when he lets the stethoscope comment slip after a 7 hour drive. The only reason you listen to a car with a stethoscope is because you hear something. Im sure after that listening session he decided to up the oil viscosity. Thankfully this is only a 14k dollar lesson where the end result is going to be a mean Jake Raby build. I've learned a lot from it and will move on. Then again I could be wrong.....

Given all that you have been through you have the right perspective. My interactions with Rennlisters has been very positive and I migrate to the site for expert advice. Choosing FSI was the best decision. Can't say enough positive things about JR.

There is no doubt that Jake and his team at FSI are a few notches above the rest.

It's a blessing in disguise and you'll end up with a long term keeper. You'll never have to lose sleep at night or every time you step on the gas...

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Exactly. Buying a higher mileage care I knew the possibilities. I planned on having to rebuild down the road, but I just didn't plan on it happening so soon. Just like you said Bill, my stress and anxiety over driving a ticking time bomb didn't last long.

It is getting to be that time of the year folks....Tear-down and rebuild time. I just spoke with Judd at FSI and he was nice enough to send me some photos of my tear-down. There were wasn't a catastrophic failure with the engine just some wear items, but it was time for a rebuild. I'll provide a refresher for people that forgot what happened 6 months ago. I bought a vehicle out of Illinois off a man that worked as an engineer at Caterpillar. He was an enthusiast, but was selling the car because he was transferring to Arizona. He seemed like an 'honest' guy and I built some trust off the fact that he was a fellow engineer. Well, we talked about his vehicle and he mentioned that he was running 20w50 in the vehicle, because he was moving. I'd say it's safe to say this was a lie and he was running it to mask engine noises. After the car purchase occurred he mentioned that he had listened to the engine with a stethoscope and everything sounded fine. Lets be honest, you only listen to a car with a stethoscope because you hear something. In typical idiot gnarbowski fashion I trust the guy and continue. I set up a PPI where we change the oil back to a 5w40 and the vehicle was inspected for wear and tear along with a nice flogging after the oil change. Mechanic reports back that the car drives great and he would have zero problems buying the vehicle. I'm feeling good at this point and like the price that we negotiated down to. The wife and I head out to bum **** middle of nowhere Illinois and complete the deal after I drive and listen to the vehicle for an hour. Fast forward an hour or two....We pull up to the hotel and I hear my worst nightmare unfold. We end up sending the car to Jake for a 3.8L Stage II engine. Seller doesn't openly admit guilt, but decides to pay for flatbed cost to Georgia. IMO opinion him doing that was an admission of guilt. I need to give him a call to catch up to tell him about car he sold me Here we are 6 months later and my engine cases have been split and looked at. A few cracked coil packs, worn bearings, and worn cylinder walls later. Pictures below. *******disclaimer******* If you intend to troll this thread please be a big boy and don't post. I'm sure that will be difficult for a few of you.

Good to hear that things are moving forward. So ultimately because the engine was toast, will this reduce the rebuild cost? You lost this summer.....but you are really going to love next summer!

Thanks for the update Gnarb & good luck with the remaining waiting period.

+1. The wait will be worth it, as you already know.

Keep looking forward...

I can't wait to get it back man. Next summer will be fun. The seller is aware of the thread and hasn't posted in it. Thank you for joining in on the discussion and expressing your thoughts.

Subscribed. Any close up photos of the cylinder walls and did they find the cause of the knocking? I think at 110k miles, most can benefit from a rebuild regardless because the cylinder walls will be ovaled and tapered and most components will need replacing such as the chain/cam pads and valve lifters. Can be all addressed thoroughly.

Great to open a thread and see some photos of an opened motor! Not under the best circumstances I understand.. But, I can't wait to here about the new motor. You're gonna have a fun rig when all said and done! Hope it all goes smooth as possible.

Can someone that’s used to looking at these pics tell me what they see? What looks good, what looks worn, and if anything looks failed? Thx.

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I didn't get any pictures of the cylinder walls.

of the piston skirts shown i would say no cylinder scoring ......they look quite good for the miles

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That's what I'm thinking too but still need to see both sides of the skirts and the other 2 pistons. I'm just wondering what's the source of the clear knocking noise in the vid if it's not bore scoring.

I went back and read the entire thread and I'm happy to join it during the resurrection. I appreciate your pragmatic approach to this, gnarbowski. The tear-down phase will be fascinating for all of us, from pros to beginners. I, too, would be very interested to read an expert analysis of the pics. My untrained eyes are fixating on the gunk and buildup that looks like burnt oil. Wondering if this is ordinary for a higher-mileage engine?

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Of the pics posted, everything looks to be normal wear for the mileage. In fact the piston skirts look very good. Nothing here to indicate the cause of the engine knocking. More pics are necessary.

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Yea that's what I was wondering also, DMF? Cats? Would not be the first time....

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That sure hasn�t been my experience. My Boxster S track car has 90k miles on the odometer. While that fact in and of itself isn�t so impressive, the fact that a lot of those miles has been done at Sebring Raceway is impressive. I�ve done a transmission rebuild and cv joints. Other than that, this car has only required brakes and tires. You sure can�t convince me a Boxster isn�t durable.

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If you listen to the second video, the knocking noise is quite solid and with the right rhythm. If not the engine, could be the one of the cats like you said. FSI should be able to check the cats easily.

I have not measured everything yet.. Its all apart on the bench awaiting me to do my work in the coming week. I took a few days this week to go pick up my 1944 Kubelwagen at the port, so I got a little behind:-)

Cool vehicle! Look forward to see more photos/diagnostic.

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This! Looks eerily similar to my 73 Volkswagen thing. Does it have a gas powered heater as well?

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Had a 74 Thing that I restored (Baja'd) in 1980, had so much fun in that Thing!

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The VW Kubelwagen was the **** answer to the Jeep during WWII. This one has a documented war history, having been delivered to Das Reich 2nd Panzer Division of Waffen SS. I have the VW Museum certificate. It has a bullet hole in the front axle beam. The VW Thing was based from the Kubelwagen basic concept, and a Cold War era Type 181 was built for the German Army (Bundeswehr) until 1979 when the VW Iltis assumes that role. I also have a Cold War (1973) Kubelwagen Type 181, and also a 1979 VW Iltisthat was also Bundeswehr. I imported these both a few years ago. I also have a civilian 1973 VW Thing that I am finishing a 20 year Long restoration of this month. It�s the car that brought me home from the hospital as an infant. It has the gas heater, one of my 914 engine conversions, and lots of other goodies. Here�s a few pics... sorry to go so far off topic! Though Porsche drivers don�t want to admit it, everything goes back to the VW, and that includes how I got my start. Today I enjoy my VWs more than Porsche�s, I drive German Army VWs daily, and my Porsche�s often stay parked, covered up, and are rollin bank accounts. I attend VW events, but stay away from Porsche events :-)

Where is the "like" button....

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That's awesome. It's amazing how off road capable these "Things" are.

Ours was bought new with the intention of it being used as a hunting vehicle. Even fabbed a removable dog carrier which hung on the backbumper to carry our bird dogs.

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Speaking of bird dogs....how big a boy are you You Tube

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HAHAHA !! I hadn't heard Roy D. Mercer in years !! thankx , I needed that !!

Tulsa Boy! One of the best ever.

The orange one has some nice grips. Looks lie maybe Interco TSL's or LTB's.

The orange one is a piece of art.

Well? Was the knocking noise found? DMF, Cats , or something not shown in the pictures...inquiring minds want to know.

You know the old saying, "Patience is a virtue" I'd suggest reading up on it.

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Yea I had patience/virtue about 40 years ago, I think I must have grown out of it. I read up on it and it says it normally happens when you get over 60, and don't have many days left...lol

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In that case I will give you a pass.

For those that have been with me since day one this has been a long time coming. Failure and initial thoughts are confirmed below. The seller imo definitely knew about the knocking. People are douche bags and some have a gigantic dose of karma coming their way. Without further ado.... Failure point wasn't too apperant until some measurements were done. 3 out of 6 cylinders were no longer round, all on bank 2. Two of these cylinders were several thousandths of an inch too larger near mid bore. Cylinder 5 was a hundredth of an inch out of round at mid bore. With this being said I think it's safe to say joe schmo pulled one over on me. I'm going to talk to the seller one of these days before I get the car back. I'd like to see if I can get him to admit. I don't really care too much about the money. I just dont like being fleeced and lied too. Any tactics or suggestions are welcome. I'm pretty good at getting people to open up anyways, so I'm not too worried about it. Cheers folks and Happy New Years!

gnarbowski, if you and I were good friends an you asked me this question, first I would remind you that you're a very fortunate man to begin with. You're right that it seems hard to believe that the seller wasn't aware that something wasn't right with the car. Assuming we're dealing with a reasonably competent individual, here, we have to assume he knew the 20w50 was overkill, considering there is a Mobil1 0w40 sticker inside of the car. You've had the resources available to take the engine to the best-of-the-best and have it analyzed, post-mortem, to confirm what everybody probably knew... something was wrong with it. At best, I'd tell you to ask him once more, knowing what we all presently know, if he was aware of the knock when he sold it to you. If he says "No" and most importantly, hypothetically , he did know, then he's a giant douche bag. You can preemptively plead for his sincerity before you ask him the question, but, if he still says "No" afterwards, accept that he could be sincere and move on. At worst he is a liar, but you've got a great life and there's no need to lower yourself to his level to communicate with him. Be the bigger man, whatever you do. Best of luck, moreso than the answer to this question I am looking forward to hearing that beast fire up. Happy new year

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Seek him out, hunt him down, and gut him like a farm animal with a dull butter knife. Just my 2 cents.

To avoid any regret keep the conversation basic. Getting your blood pressure up over his poor behavior is going to tax you more than him. Congrats on being able to get your car properly rebuilt & best wishes enjoying it going forward.

You know, it had occurred to me he could be worried you're looking to sue if he admits to anything. Are you willing to put cold water on that theory or is that your end game?

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Good idea haha

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End game isn't to sue the guy. That would be a waste of time, money, and effort. End game is for the guy to admit he heard the knocking and lied about its condition. He thought masking the problem with thicker oil would buy him enough time. Little did he know I am an ******* that enjoys getting to the bottom of problems. I plan to let the guy know I have zero intention of suing him. With him knowing this and taking it as fact, he might open up and admit guilt. If i can get him to give me a little bit of money back, so be it. It will be telling if the past owner even answers my call.

Hate to hear about your story, but it seems they're more common than many believe. Not just Porsches, but many of the cars that end up on craigslist and yes even dealers... e.g. Carmax. Have you heard of the Max Attack? Well, never buy a M96/M97 based 911 at Carmax unless you have a weird fetish of flushing money down the toilet. Unfortunately, the laws don't protect buyers in direct car private car sales unless there is clear evidence of fraud and even then, fighting it in court can cost more than it's worth. Plain and simple, when it's sold as-is, the car is yours warts and all. I know hindsight is 20/20, but if it were me, I would have called him as soon as I heard the knocking noises, turned around, and asked for my money back. If he was a decent guy, he would have obliged, but in most cases, once you drive off, it's yours. My advice... Move on and enjoy the car once it's repaired.

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That phone call was made immediately after hearing the noise. I posed the exact same question to the guy and he turned me down. I agree with everything posted above. It is what it is at this point, but I will be reaching out to the the past owner one last time.

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Oh goodness, I wasn't sure from your original post when you talked to the owner. That really sucks especially when you had a mechanic check the car out beforehand. I wouldn't hold my breath on getting any money out of him, but mention his comment about not wanting to screw anyone over and see what he says. Maybe he'll split the repair bill? I wouldn't bet on it. Curious, do you have an estimate of what it will cost to repair the engine? Care to share? Thanks buddy... and we wish you all the best!

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I'll shoot you a PM

Good Luck with the call!

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There have been other cases where sellers have obviously misrepresented what they were selling and/or what they'd done to the car mechanically - but in this case, the seller even disclosed that he'd listened to the car with a stethoscope, which sounds like typical 996 terror-of-ownership to me. Unless there is more evidence to support some kind of cover-up or conspiracy, I'm not sure why the seller is obligated to refund the purchase price. The car was running soundly when he sold it, and nothing turned up during whatever happened as part of the PPI/test drive. If this was MY car, and it left my driveway in what I thought was proper running order - and then I subsequently received a phone call saying the car busted on the way out of town and the buyer wanted his money back, I would be disinclined to take back a now-broken vehicle in exchange for a full refund, especially given the pending move. This is a 20-year-old car with over 100,000 miles on it, with the incorrect oil (for Arizona, even though the car wasn't GOING to Arizona) - but even so, OP noticed nothing amiss until it had been inspected, serviced by, and extensively driven by someone who isn't a Porsche mechanic... OP, regardless of whether someone TRIED to screw you over - or if it's just fate that screwed you over - I'm sorry for the hassle and the heartbreak of finding out that your new-to-you 911 isn't right.

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I don't necessarily believe anything is owed to me. I purchased the car and signed off on the PPI knowing what you have included in the above post. I do however believe the owner was deceptive with how he represented the vehicle in his bill of sale. Anyways, the car is going to be 100 x what it was in it's stock form. I at least have that going for me after all this drama.

Heh. Excellent attitude alignment.

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Technically, It's not considered waterboarding.... if you use vineger and oive oil

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Originally Posted by gnarbowski "Any tactics or suggestions are welcome. I'm pretty good at getting people to open up anyways, so I'm not too worried about it." I still stand behind my suggestion...it will definitely "open him up"...

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You may be my long lost twin brother.

Fun times are approaching. First crank of the new engine should occur later on today. My patience was tested over the last 10 months, but it looks like the waiting has paid off. Enjoy folks!

Wow, can�t imagine how excited you are, hope it�s everything you expect it to be and then some� enjoy!

You must be feeling pretty good if your engine pics are any indication. Glad you are so excited about your Porsche 911. Can't wait to see your completed project.

Yeehaw!

Well folks, the car is ready to come home. I should have it sometime next week. Below is a video of the first start Jud provided to me. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Dh...sxK1ZEGKzszfEs

Congrats! Just in time for Spring. It was nice of Flat 6 to store it for you over the winter. BTW, those wheels look amazing.

The anthracite classic II were a selling point when i bought the car. I wouldn't be surprised if you see 996 gt3 rims on the vehicle in the distant future. For those on instagram, feel free to follow along at https://www.instagram.com/mr__sinn/ . I'll be posting as much content as possible when I get her back.

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Very nice working with you... Glad we finished it a little ahead of schedule, and you�ll have the car for spring! This is how we make lemonade, from rotten lemons, and it tastes pretty good!

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I truly can't emphasize how great it has been to work with FSI. Their approach to providing full circle completion of the engine rebuild process made life easy. Whether it was vehicle shipment or hurricane updates, they routinely went above and beyond expectations. 5/5 stars. I can't wait to get the vehicle back in the coming days. I will report back folks.

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The feeling is mutual... You made our job easier by staying available for communication, and by promptly responding. Your decisiveness also played a key role in things being so smooth for all involved.

We want more! We want more! We want more!

Curious about the engine build. FSI you guys can ping me off line. My goal is to find a pair of good cases and have a 3.8 built. Mike

All ready to come home.

I'm so glad...! Well done all around...!

Congrats! Looking forward to your feedback.

We should start a FSI owners group

I agree! I just got my car back from Jake. I also did the 3.8 stage II rebuild. They are awesome to work with.

Mine is a 3.8 Stage II also.

I also did the Numeric One ST shifter, totally different car.

Congrats gnarbowski! You are going to love it! I have to agree on the Numeric. I was surprised by how much more connected I felt to the power of the 3.8.

Happy for you and jealous of you at the same time! (Is that ok? lol)

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Sorry to drag this old post on this thread up, but from my nick, you'll understand why... The VW Iltis AWD was the drivertrain from which the original Audi quattro was derived - its performance on rough and slippery terrain sparked the germ of the idea for a production AWD vehicle - and the rest, as they say, is history.... Now back on thread... This has been a fascinating read, thanks OP and Jake...I hope I never have to refer back to it though...

I just read this entire thread. wow! As a new 996 owner, I was reading with bated breath! Post impressions when you get the car back. GOOD LUCK WITH IT, ENJOY!

Congrats.....looking to see you enjoy the car!

I just read this entire thread and I'm happy that the original poster got everything sorted out. I probably would have bailed as soon as the original seller said 20W50 and stethoscope!

Been a little busy driving the car instead of posting on Rennlist. That's a good thing though! Overall impressions from the engine build are great. It's a beast that offers unrivaled linear power. I've been trying to clock a 50 mile loop when my schedule and the weather allow. The roads in my part of the world are completely horrible this time of the year. Love the car and really enjoy the feel of the MY98. I'm going to have to upgrade some suspension bits in the not so distant future.

Read the entire post and I appreciate you taking the time to document your experiences, both good and bad. I hope you enjoy the summer with your "refreshed" 911 and its new found energy!

I for one would love to see driving videos

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fun read, glad it all worked out for you in the end. i dig those wheels on there and maybe in the distant future i'll keep an eye on for you to post them fs :P