Eternal IMS Fix?

Yet another potential reengineer of the OEM part, http://europeanpartssolution.com/instructions/ has a roller bearing retrofit kit. I hate to do this...thoughts?

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Cool! How much$$$?

$599, looks interesting.

I posted that before asking if anyone had info or could even get to the installation video. has anyone seen the vid? If so how did you get to it? https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-solution.html

5 years warranty is nice!

No oil feed, just a different bearing. With all the dead pages and spelling errors on the web site, I wonder if they wanted to say external rather then eternal .

It says $599 on the ad. Looks interesting.

Well add one more option to the mix which is good for us consumers. I'd be interested to hear comments from one of the members here that actually installs one of these.

Vertex is in Miami, they sell various aftermarket parts but they also rebuild engines and transmissions. Among other things, they sell cars on the bay. Recently they had a couple 996s that said "0 Miles on new engine" and that the IMS had been upgraded. I called on one of them and spoke with the proprietor who told me about the roller bearing they had developed. He said their bearing even in single-row configuration is several times the load capacity of the ceramic LN bearing. And he said the problem with "The Solution" is that if the external oil feed malfunctions, the crankshaft-style bearing will heat up and seize quickly. He said there would be an article on their bearing in an upcoming Excellence. He said they've had quite a few people have LN bearings removed in favor of their roller bearing. He said they've been testing it for "a while now" with no failures, although he declined to say how many bearings were tested and for how many miles. All hearsay of course. And theirs is still a steel bearing and still fitted where it wasn't designed to get a lot of lubrication. Which is where the ceramic bearing excels: superior longevity in cases of heat and inferior lubrication. I'm still not convinced that if the LN single-row bearing is properly installed, and the engine has not had a failing or failed stock bearing and therefore a crankcase full of debris, that the bearing can't last far longer than the conservative 50,000 miles LN says. The vast majority of stock bearings last longer than that.

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I interpret this rating as more of a liability and CYA to maintain the product's squeaky clean reputation. I mean look at some of those wheel bearings that see more load and shock(albeit with grease intact) go to 150k+.

What about this oil feed flange that lubes your bearing? http://tunersmotorsports.com/?page_id=103

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There's been heavy discussion and documentation over at Pelican during when the guy designed it before selling the patent awhile ago. The product at Turner seems to be more refined since the original though.

I think a sealed ceramic hybrid bearing is the ticket. When oil enter the bearing, the seals will act as a barrier and keep the oil inside. Without the seals, any oil that accumulates inside the bearing when the engine is shut off will be displaced through centrifugal force as soon as the engine is running. I do not think splash lubrication is adequate.

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That's what I'm running. With almost 10K km, so far it's holding up. I've also put about a third of a litre of synthetic engine oil in the IMS, behind the bearing. Figured that when the bearing seal start to leak, this extra oil will keep it lubricated for a while.

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I wish this was available when I put my LN bearing in. Belt and suspenders!!

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Actually this is suppose to be compatible with your LN bearing so you could always put this in during your next clutch change if you wanna backup to a backup.

Interesting, it seems the available options are growing. I know I will need a clutch soon (81,000 mi on original and still doesn't slip!) and want to do something then, but it seems there is something I don't like about every kit. Problems as I see them: EPS Roller - Does not address poor lubrication issue, no detail about "thrust control" I'm guessing there is some thrust load there, why else would Porsche have used a ball bearing and not a roller bearing to begin with? Need lots more details to fully judge/evaluate which are not on website. Tune RS DOF - While not as expensive as the Solution, still not cheap, and does not replace my old worn bearing. Also, I'm not a fan of Zinc plated steel. It never seems to be as robust against corrosion as advertised. I'd rather see Stainless or Aluminum. Ceramic Hybrid - Still known to fail (arguably due to instillation, I know), still recommended to be changed with every clutch. I want a one and done fix. I plan on having this car for a very long time. Solution - Expensive, and while Jake seems to be extremely concerned about reputation which is admirable, there is little warranty on the unit. It's great to come on this board and discuss and defend your product, but a a strong warranty would speak even louder. (Also, I'm a bit leery since I'm 1/2 convinced my Guardian is leaking. However, I really can't be certain it's not oil from the RMS dribbling down the wire, so I haven't contacted LN or Flat 6)

woops wrong thread.

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Look at the site. Comes with new stock or ceramic bearing. http://tunersmotorsports.com/?page_id=103 Also discussion on Pelican with manufacturer http://forums.pelicanparts.com/boxst...injection.html

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I found another, seems pretty robust, but cannot read the language. Insario. http://www.insaroims.com/ims-upgrade.php

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I put it on google translate and I think it is a dual bearing design, so if one fails the other will still keep the shaft in place so it won't damage the engine. google translate: Insaro redesigning also contributes an axis of 20mm, with lugs notice subframe and bearing reinforced ceramic, a second bearing that would subject the shaft in case of breakage of the first bearing, thus preventing sagging of the chain assembly and breakage engine. If such a failure occurs, the shaft would rub against 5 Bosses at the outdoor portaejes producing sound volume and high frequencies would alert the owner of the vehicle quickly. The major contribution of this new design is the inclusion of a second bearing, which, in case of breakage of the first bearing shaft would prevent off-hook with subsequent engine failure. This second bearing is combined, ball and roller, tougher even than the ball bearing silicon nitride. In case of breakage of the main bearing, the shaft bearing support in combination, preventing sagging and breaking of the same engine. Also, the lugs 5 provided on the outer circumference of the subframe part, avoid axial movement of the intermediate shaft and in turn generate a vibration that would be a warning of the failure of the part. This alert should be enough to turn off engine and go to a specialized center. The new design piece Insaro has a 2 year warranty, plus 1 additional year free extended warranty, why, any breakage, defect, or damage of any component will be replaced free of charge.

Sorry, but you couldnt be more wrong about this. Anyone whose had this apart will know why.

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And those that have reached a zen state will live in eternal bliss...why do you always speak in tongues? Just explain what you know, instead of keeping everything a big mystery.

I really like the direct oil feed system from Tune RS. This looks to certainly be the evolution of what "feelyx" developed and shared over on Pelican (note: I am just assuming that this was the evolution of feelyx's work. It is also possible that Tune RS developed it seperately): http://forums.pelicanparts.com/boxst...sign-idea.html The issue with the bearing is not load capacity, it is lubrication issues that may crop up. The possible scenarios for lubrication issues have been discussed ad nauseum. The ceramic hybrid bearings do better because they have much better tolerance of low lubrication. I like the Tune RS system because: 1) It can be used with the stock bearing or a hybrid ceramic bearing (choice is good) 2) It can be used on the M97 engines, which is the first IMS upgrade that can be added on without major engine disassembly to the M97 (that I know about) 3) If the oil feed line becomes compromised (e.g. crimped, or develops a leak) then the bearing will continue much like the stock unit. The plain bearing of the IMS solution will fail very quickly if anything significant happens to the oil feed. Not terribly likely, but anytime there is external plumbing in the oil system it is a risk. 4) This system is available to DIY'ers. Nothing wrong with getting a pro to do a job like this, but it is well within the capability of knowledgable and careful home mechanics too and I am happy that I can buy it. That said, periodic bearing replacement or the LN solution are good options as well.

+1 above

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I respectfully disagree with the above statement, we have yet to commit to an article on this product. Sincerely, Tony Callas Technical Editor, Excellence Magazine

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Hi Tony, Why not an article on all the various versions and testing of new and innovative designs ( the Feelyx thread on the Pelican site is phenomenal, was like reading a good novel) of the IMSB retrofit possibilities? There are a lot of engines out there with this design = great readership interest. This thread has already pointed out numerous possibilities. Dave

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I don't understand why you think that if the seals can let oil in, that it won't also let it out. But if it did retain the oil, why would you want the same dirty oil to stay inside the bearing rather than have it continually flushed out, and replaced with clean oil at each oil change? I would agree that splash lubrication is not adequate with a steel bearing, but that's precisely the why the ceramic was chosen for this application. Tony, that's what the Vertex guy said on the 'phone. I was not vouching for him, merely repeating what he told me.

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Good catch, looks like I was a bit too quick reading their page.

I saw the ad for the Eternal IMS fix also and this got me to looking at what people were saying about it and the other fixes. I have not weighed in on this topic much, until the last few days. I thought I'd weigh in on this one too. Frankly the Eternal IMS fix from Vertex scares me. No data, no information to really back up their product, not a word. 1. The roller bearing is traditionally great for radial loads but bearing manufacturers rate it as "unsuitable" for thrust loads. Vertex calls it a "thrust" roller bearing but does not explain (again no technical detail) how it handles thrust loads. The bearing at the other end of the IMS was not made to handle thrust loads. The stock ball bearing that is so much trouble was indeed made to handle thrust loads. So the stock bearing is weak when it comes to radial loads, but probably sufficient for the limited axial loads you would see. The Eternal IMS addresses the one issue - radial loads, but fails to provide a means to handle the axial loads. 2. This is a steel bearing with even greater contact area than a ball bearing, but still with marginal, at best, lubrication. This bearing needs MORE lubrication than the stock bearing and a lot more than the ceramic ball bearing. The fact that no provision is given for additional lubrication likewise scares me. I don't think this is a viable option... best to look at the other ball bearing options, direct oil feed, or plain bearing. Now IF there was a provision to handle thrust and a direct oil feed was added, then this might be a very nice solution. Without those two issues addressed though I would not dare put this product in either of my cars needing an IMS fix. Kirk Bristol

If somebody interested i Have a Ln Engeneering doble bearing never installed brand NEW for sale paid 650$ 4 days ago , i let it go for 600 [email removed] [phone removed]

Hello Rennlist! My first post, new owner of my first Porsche, a Boxster, '04 basic. I like the Tune RS Direct Oil Feed solution, but tapping into the oiling system scares me a little. The Tune RS web site mentions a .5 PSI drop in pressure using their system, but they do not mention at what oil viscosity (if I am correct). If there is a Standard Oil Viscosity that is used in the industry, I am not aware. What I would like to see is a manual Direct Grease Injection, where a stock IMS cover could have a hole drilled and tapped into it for a fitting that the owner could fit a grease gun onto and squirt grease into the bearing at regular intervals (while doing an oil change for instance). Maybe an additional grease exit tube could be fit so that the excess grease could be captured for 2 reasons. The escaping grease could be compared by volume or weight to the grease injected. This could verify that the front seal of the bearing is intact. The exit grease could also be checked for any debris, verifying the condition of bearing and seal. I believe a tapered roller bearing can handle thrust, like many wheel bearings these days. But I think that the Tune RS site mentions that rollers conduct too much heat into the bearing because of the increased surface area of the rollers, compared to ball.

the best fix for IMS, slipping sleeves, cracked heads, exploding AOS, and pourus blocks is to buy part number: Porsche 997.2 9A1 DFI

Nothing porous about this statement, M3! But this thread will have long expired by the time some of us will be able to afford one such as a decent '09 C2 which is still well north of $60k ... or around $70k, north of the 49th parallel. Kirk Bristol: Thanks for the technical content: Appreciated!

Direct grease injection......not a bad idea. Build it and see how it does.

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You mean one of these beasts?? Been developing the DFI engine since 2010 now :-) The first one we pulled apart had 11 miles on the car.. This one is brand new, never ran outside the factory and is on my bench now... There's a reason why its here. Waiting on contact back from Porsche on what we've found on this engine and the one that we took apart just before it with 4,160 miles on it.

Another one missing an o-ring?

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Fully documented and when it was pulled apart I had 8 verifiers standing by to see it. I am now looking to get 10-15 cars into the shop of various body styles, Boxster, Cayman, 991 and etc from 12-13 model years and inspect them to carry out my own study. The only issue is doing this inspection will kill the engine warranty, which might be needed.

I have done a little research on the single row bearing and have a theory that it is the ball cage that is coming apart, leading to rapid destruction of the races and *****, and even displacement of the inner race (timing chain slips). Further research about the ball cage shows that a solid brass cage would be far better than the very thin, frail, stamped soft metal cage found on the single row bearing. But brass cannot be used on the smaller sized bearings like the single row IMSB. So I am wondering if the 2005 - 2008 larger sized IMS bearing has the brass cage. Anyone have one of these larger bearings or a picture?

Walter maybe you should stick to cooking m#$% cause your way off base.

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Why? Does this mean the later, larger bearing uses the same stamped metal cage?

What research did you do?

I am continuing my research. I may start a Ball Bearing thread when I have more information. Just wish I could get a look at the 987 bearing cage. The cage on the left is the cage I think would be very helpful with the IMS bearing. The cages in the middle are typical of what is used on the size bearing that the IMSB is (6204). The photo on the right is what can happen when the cage comes apart.

I don't really see the value in why you are researching this when other's have already gone through it in exhaustive lengths. But if you have all the time in the world and endless resources, more power to ya. I don't really know what purpose though it will serve in the end.

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All great innovations start with asking a question. Please dont hesitate to share what you find

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You could some more photos to the right, like the piston after a valve hit it, a flatsix rescue truck heading to GA with a 996 on it, a bank account draining and an empty stall in the garage.

Thanks for the encouragement

Thanks to all for their comments. I'm thinking about getting a 996/997 and find this info very helpful since I'm a novice at it even though I've owned and driven a Porsche, my 944, since new in 84. Ralph

Just looked at the "eternal solution" and it has some serious engineering flaws. The 'thrust control' is just two (hardened, I presume) washers that run on the outer face of the race. The load capacity of the bearing is not even close to design limits of the ball bearing, so 'five times the load limit' means nothing. Just go with a ceramic bearing replacement. No need to spend thousands on 'magic' solutions.

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The Big Bang Theory: Gradations of Wrong - YouTube

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Hi Bristol, Thank you for your interest in our product. We apologize for not responding and commenting sooner. Our EPS IMS Cylindrical bearing spreads out the pressure point, applying the load on approximately 15mm. Just to give you a little spec information, the IMS shaft turns at HALF the speed of the engine (max 3,500 RPM). Our EPS IMS Cylindrical bearings can operate at speeds up to 15,000 RPM. The speed that the IMS bearing is operating originally at (max 3,500) is a leisurely pace compared to its ability of 15,000 RPM.

Also, our EPS IMS bearing differentiates from that of others because it is based on a completely different technology. While others use a ball bearing that applies the load on a pin point of about 1.0mm, our EPS IMS bearing is cylindrical, meaning that it applies the load across the total length of the cylinder, approximately 15mm. Regarding any doubts on whether oil lubrication is the problem, here is why it isn�t. The bearing is positioned at the bottom of the oil an, so it is question about the oil lubrication being the problem, this is not the case. The bearing is positioned at the bottom of the oil pan, so it is essentially submerged in oil at all times. Lubrication is not the problem here.

Hope this clarifies your doubts. If you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to us. Thanks, EPS Team epsauto.com

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This is getting humorous ^^^

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It's "positioned" at the bottom of the oil pan??? Does he imply it will end up in the oil pan rather? hahaha Can anyone explain what they mean by the bearing is position at the bottom of the oil pan???

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Traditionally there is a top, middle, and bottom of "components". Based on his verbiage, I'd guess he means the lowest portion of the oil pan. The bottom. EPS IMS actually sits on the very bottom of the pan (purposely positioned for efficiency), submerged in oil, mind you it's also magnetic, collecting metal particles. This is the opposite location of the top. I hope this answered your question. Please reply if not and maybe I can add some more clarity.

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Aw! I want the bot to say hi to me! What do I have to do? This? EPS IMS Cylindrical bearing interest. EPS interest. INTEREST!!

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All my research and google banner ads suggest there are only "tops" and "bottoms". What is this middle you speak of? It sounds Greek.

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The middle section!

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Your reply will be ready in 4.5 years. Watch for it.....

EPS are spamming every old IMSB post they can find on this and other Forums with their snake oil claims. Ironically it has probably damned and doomed their entire Product Line because we've been provoked into examining their (dubious) claims. To be fair their "patented" washer seems to be (legally) legit. Smart Rennlisters will be asking here before buying EPS Products - another example -their Rear Main Bearing Support ! https://www.europeanpartssolution.com/ It is a pity because they have some good ideas. If you know someone high up at EPS, please ask them to save their credibility and correct their nonsense claims. They could be a very useful part supplier - and we need that !