How does your 996 brake? I think mine sucks...here's why

Hi all, As you know, I purchased my CPO'd 2005 911 C4S about 3 weeks ago. Don't worry pics will be coming soon! I came from a BMW 335i Coupe which is a much different car despite still being German. One of the most noticable differences is the braking. I have to push the pedal so far down to get bite with the pad on the rotor it's concerning to me. Once I do get bite, there is no real "grab" and I have to continue to apply more force than I feel is normal to stop the car. I can feel the pad rubbing against the rotor trying to gain friction but it struggles. Now to answer your question, yes the car does actually stop when the brakes are applied. However, I feel like I have to put way more effort than I have with any other car I've ever driven to get it to stop. I figured with performance (non-carbon) brakes it would be superior to anything else I've owned (3 BMW 3-series). I took it in to the dealership last week to have them look at it and they did a brake fluid flush but that did not make it any better. All 4 pads have PLENTY of pad left, so that is not an issue. For example, when I left the dealership in my loaner Cayenne, I felt like I had never driven a car before because the brakes felt sooo grabby compared by my 911. It literally looked like I was slamming on the brakes as I was pulling out of the dealership because I was so used to having to apply so much force to my brakes to get bike and slow the car down. I have 3 options that I think could be the cause. 1) The pads and rotors were not bedded properly. Is the only way to fix this to replace all 4 rotors and pads and re-bed them? 2) Porsche CPO checks for pad life (must be at least 50% pad left to qualify) but do they check for the actual brand/texture of the pad on the car? Maybe the previous owner used a cheap, crappy pad before it was CPO'd? 3) I'm on crack and this is how these cars are supposed to brake. Is this normal? Does your 911 brake this way? What do you think could be the issue?

Could very well be the pad type. But the pedal should go as deep to the floor as you are describing. Mine is pretty firm with Carbotech pads and ATE blue fluid.

Not normal. Brakes should be excellent.

Nope! My car has a progressive braking feel that seems to grab exponetially more as you put your foot into it. There have been a few situations where i was really concerned about the car behind me being able to brake at the rate that i was. I find the brakes REALLY slow the car down when necessary. Pete

I went through a similar issue with my C4S a while back. Compared to my Boxster S the C4S just didn't feel as grabby early on and I felt like I had to really stand on the brakes to get the ABS to engage. After much research and a check with the dealer the brakes are basically operating as designed and they do stop the car rather quickly. The higher tolerance before the ABS kicks in is, apparently, by design to allow more pedal modulation. Same goes for the lack of bite early in the stopping process.

actually.... since you are coming from a 335 that has very grabby brakes, you need time to get accustomed to these brakes.... they do require more effort than any other car. I once thought the same when I first got my p-car. These brakes shine at the track that gives you plenty of feedback.... this topic has been discussed several times, try giving it a search.

Thank you all for the quick replies. I will do a search. Also, one other issue I've been having is the steering at highway speeds has a lot of feedback in terms of vibration and a small shimmy. They did a balance on all 4 tires which helped to reduce the shimmy from a very bad to just a small one. Is this also normal for these cars? The Cayenne I drove was rock solid even at highway speeds, no feedback and no vibration or shimmy. I wasn't sure if that was another 911 thing or an all-wheel drive thing since I have never owned an AWD car. I'd appreciate any feedback that you may have. It's definitely a learning experience for me as this is such a vastly different car from what I'm used to and since I bought it used, I wasn't sure what was normal and what may be an issue that needs to be fixed.

My BMW brakes are more grabby than my Pcar but my Pcar's braking distance is better...

The braking in my 04' C2 is excellent. Not grabby but quick stopping power and easy to control. By far the best braking on any car I have owned.

There are a few variables relative to wheel shimmy. Were the tires/wheels road force balanced? Did your dealer check for wheel damage? Do you notice the shimmy at all speeds? How many miles have your tires accumulated and have the tires been checked regularly. I would say that feedback is normal and wheel shimmy is not.

While CPO is nice, it should not be considered to be equivalent to "just left the factory". You don't mention the miles on the car, but it is conceivable that the previous owners driving style abused the brakes. While dealers prefer to sell rotors and pads together (who doesn't like selling $2K worth of work vs $400), I would consider replacing the pads that are in there (regardless of thickness) and bed them in properly; and also take dome fine sandpaper to the rotors. If you have a jack and a toolkit, you can do this work yourself too. No need to pay $100/hr to the dealer. You might also want to find others nearby with similar cars to compare their braking traits.

Orient, I too came from a 335i. I'm familiar with your posts on Bimmer forums. Like you upon switching to an 05 C4S last June, I found the brakes non responsive as compared to the E90. My P-car is a CPO with brake fluid flush and refill etc. However, within one week, I got used to the additional foot pressure needed and got to like the brake feel and its ease of modulation. The only thing is that after driving in pouring rain, it takes a while to dry them. I think that with more use you'll get to like them. Don't however try to compare to the 335i. They are wholly different cars in concept and execution. I personally often think that there is something a bit artisanal about P-cars that makes them quite endearing.

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Thanks for the feedback ogun. Ideally I would not like to compare the two cars since they are so radically different but it's tough when don't have another 911 to compare it to see if there is an issue. I just wanted to know if it should be considered normal for them to perform this way or if there is something that needs to be addressed and fixed. To those who asked, the car has 37k miles and was CPO'd about 4 months ago. Again, thank you all for the feedback. I'm shocked at the amount of response this thread has already generated. I really appreciate hearing from everyone.

This is not normal. Your pedal should have a firm initial bite and progressive modulation, characteristic of all Porsche brakes. The pad type is very important, as is the history of the current brakes. Did the prev owner track the car? Do you see a cheese-grater effect around the drilled vent holes? Is there cracking around those same holes? The pads can be glazed much like a clutch if they're ridden for too long, too hard, and not properly cooled in between. I'd suggest taking the pads off for examination (it takes just 10 minutes per wheel with a floor jack, torque wrench and punch for the caliper pin), and check for pad thickness and wear. If the pads are shiny on the friction surface, try roughing them up on the nearest piece of asphalt, brushing off any dirt or rocks you pick up, and re-inserting. while in there you might bleed the system a bit to make sure there's no air in the lines from your dealer flush. If all else fails, a replacement of rotors and pads should return you to form, and depending on the mileage and condition it may be warranted. If you have a shimmy I'd start with a balance. The weights are held on with double-sided tape and sometimes fall off. With the low profile of your tires, it's quite possible that one of the wheels is slightly off true or there's tire damage from a pothole or curb. If you've eliminated those possibilities and still feel a shimmy, go for a four-wheel alignment. It's not cheap, but when your tires are 9-11" wide you should expect that anything wrong will register itself immediately in steering feedback. good luck, let us know how it works out for you.

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The dealers first attempt to fix the brakes was a brake fluid flush. That did not make any difference in braking or pedal travel/feel. They also did a balance on the tires and that helped only slightly with the shimmy I had at highway speeds (70mph+). The car is rock solid at 60mph and under. It steadily increases as the speed increases and then it has some speeds where it goes away above 60-70mph. I'm wondering if the time the car was driven before the balance was done wore an improper tread which is still leading to some vibration.

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What you describe is very indicative of a balance issue as the harmonics come and go. Did the dealer do a "road force" balance as you may just have a bad tire?

When the service techs at the dealer test drove your car, did they agree with you that the brakes are faulty or at least not behaving typically? What do they say about the shimmy? I'd at least want agreement from the Techs or the Service Adviser on this.

Go test drive another used 996C4S from 2005 (or 2004). Get a feel for what another feels like. There are plenty in Dallas.

I have both a 996 and an E91 328xi. I am very familiar with what you are describing. It is normal to my knowledge. The Porsche brakes are way more progressive. You need to push the pedal much further to start real braking. In the BMW, the full braking starts pretty much when you put your foot on the pedal. Note that my 996 has new rotors, new pagid pads, new brake fluid, etc. It still has a very different behavior from the BMW. Most drivers who have tried both (wife, parents) concur. It is a bit unsettling at first. However, I found it useful to be able to modulate the braking on the track, which was more difficult with the BMW. You just have to get used to it. Then the BMW will feel weird. FM

I've had 2 each 3 series BMWs and a 5 series; 2 911s and a Boxster - my 996 brakes fine

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The techs did agree to issues on both. They did a fluid flush on the brakes and a balance on the tires. I guess in their opinion it seemed to fix the problem. The flush did nothing to help the braking. The balance helped slightly with my steering "shimmy" at highway speed. I'm returning to the dealership tomorrow to have the service adviser drive the car for his own verification for further repairs.

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Thanks for the input FM. The only other Porsche I've driven was the Cayenne loaner they gave me and the brakes were just like my BMW's. I'm going to see if they have any other 996's I can drive there on the used lot to see if I can feel those as well for comparison.

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Another thread on bmw braking feel vs Porsche: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...essions-2.html

How many miles on the tires? Are they the same brand on all 4? Are they original tires? All could factor in on the shimmy/vibration. My 04 Turbo has great brakes, no mushy feel, smooth, and stops on a dime.

#3 is the answer minus the crack possibly. You are coming from a simply, over-boosted brake system of the BMW. The brakes in Porsche are more linear, not progressive - at least in the 996's. There is only ~33% of weight on the front tires, hard initial bite will just make the ABS work that much more.

I have to say this was my first impression of my 2004's brakes. My Mercedes brakes just feel WAY more responsive and do seem to come on much stronger and sooner with less pedal pressure. I proactively had the fluid flushed and changed the pads are OEM and good, I alos just mounted new rubber and had them road force balanced. Brakes do feel "better" but I am not sure they are where they need to be or if this is actually as good as they get for a Porsche. I did have the original dealer who did PPI and and my local independant say that the pads and rotors are good. I guess in my head I just always expected a Porsche to brake better than a Volvo or Mercedes (my last two cars). Been raining here for a week straight so maybe I'll really test them out once this damn rain stops and see who brakes in shortest distance the P-Car or the M-Car.

My 4S gives me that feeling as well, however the braking distance is much better than with my other car a BMW 335is (that being said the 911 is much lighter). I do regret the aggressive braking of the 964 and 993... hitting the braking at 120 mph you had the feeling the car hit a wall !

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Great to hear that someone else has experienced this issue. I definitely think there is an adjustment as they are designed to brake completely different than say my BMW. I do still think the brakes could be better as I had someone who drives porsches on a regular basis tell me today that he did feel that something wasn't right. Going to the dealer tomorrow. I'll post the outcome. Thank you all again for your feedback. It has been extremely helpful!

I will add one more thought to this... My 996 2000 C4 has great responcive breaks. My 968 that has very similar Break system has the poor initial feel you discribe. The pads in the 968 are metalic and never show any dust on the wheels. The 996 has Porsche OEM pads. Both cars have about the same miles and the C4 gets its front wheels dirty in just a few miles after washing. Metalic pad just do not have that responcive feel of the OEM pads. Same pads on my Audi and same results - the A6 and the 968 stop well - but you have to trust them as there is no peddle feeling of "gripping".

Without specifying the type of pad that you're running, I don't think you'll be able to get an accurate answer. If the PO stuffed cheap pads on there, to save money, your braking performance will suffer. I tossed PBR's on my car, as a cheap street pad, and they were abysmal. The pads would not bite, regardless of pedal pressure. Good pads make a huge difference in brake feel. -Jon

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The was is CPO'd. I would think Porsche would check to see what pads are on the car. If they are non OEM pads, I would think they'd have to change them for it to be considered CPO by Porsche. But I may be wrong. Maybe they just check the pad depth (there's tons of pad left) and not the actual type of pad itself?

I agree with changing the pads, PO may have put in track pads or cheap pads. Same issue happened to me on a Vette I bought a few years ago and a change to factory (parts counter) pads made the braking perfect. Tire issue may be flat spots that need to come out, but may never. When I bought my 01 the front shake was terrible but got much, much better with daily driving. The factory Pirelli tires never did fully recover though. New tires a few weeks ago made it perfect.

This spring, I was noticing that the pads were not grabbing as good... and it more more pedal effort. I had glanced at them through the spokes of the wheel, and they didn't seem that worn. But I changed them anyway. Glad I did!!!

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Tires are only a few months old. Michellin Pilot Sports. I would think flat spots would be noticable at all speeds?

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I had the exact same shimmy problem when I first bought my used 996. I changed the Pilot Sports to new Toyo Proxes which solved the problem. I think the previous owner had the PS's mounted improperly which caused improper tread wear, thus the shimmy.

The brakes can't have a fast grab to them when applying a little pressure since fancy fast foot work at speed would result in drastic balance changes in the suspension. I'm not sure about your other car with the grabby brakes but going 170 on a wide sweeping turn like the autobahn and having grabby brakes is a disaster waiting to happen. In short, like others mention the car brakes better than others. Just because it gives a feel of the car being heavy due to progressive brakes don't be fooled. Find an open stretch of hwy with nobody behind you and try to see if you can stop in 100 feet while doing 60mph. Then if you find the stats are true do what ever you do to bring your adrenilin back down and don't worry about the brakes. Just get thing looked at if the braking is uneven. You might have a frozen brake piston or something odd. It's just a car like any other. But it is designed better than most. I don't advise having an unqualified in porsche guy do the suspension and tires or alignment. You can go for common street or track alignments. Track alignments will make you feel like the car is dancing around but that all changes at speed. Uneven roads with bumps seem to always give a stiff suspension a dance around efect. In a perfect world all roads would be cared for by german road crews with everybody driving a porsche. Good luck getting happy results. Remember its an almost race ready car if it isn't already. Sure its a show boat, till you hit the gas.

Your 996 should have plenty of stopping power. It may not have the instantaneous strong grab that the BMW had (my old 525i had that same grabby feel), but it has plenty of progressive power and takes very little effort to apply huge stopping force - in fact, I'd say it feels just right. My guess is that even though you have a CPO car, the pads themselves were not checked to be OEM, but rather to be within wear tolerance. As has been said already, certain types of pads will have poor initial bite and and will give you very little stopping power until they are hot. In fact, this describes track type pads very well. Maybe the previous owner had track pads in there when he sold the car. Or, the pads could just simply be lousy, cheap pads. Pad compound has a huge impact on how the brakes feel and how well they actually stop the car, especially when the pads are cold or cool. (btw, even though my current Avatar shows the '84 911, I also own a 996 and use it as a daily driver)

Thank you all for your support and advice. I did take my car in to the dealer yesterday and they did ease my concerns on my brakes though they did admit the pad felt slightly glazed and could probably be re-bedded if driven hard enough to help with some additional bite. However, I did also have a very bad shimmy and vibration at highway speed that they also addressed. I started a separate thread for that. Here is the link. I'd like to hear what your feedback is on the reason for this shimmy and vibration to be "normal." https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...om-dealer.html