2001 engine rebuild

I posted this in the air cooled section not knowing that it was not a 9-1 even though that is what the add said. they directed me here. I ran across a 2001 911 (now I know it is not a 911) that had an IMS failure. I have always wanted a 911 and if it isn't too expensive to rebuild the engine I might go for it. I have rebuilt GM and Chrysler motors and even helped build a VW motor I ce. This would be the first time for a Porsche Engine. I see that reman engines are pushing $20k. Are the parts really that expensive or is the build that complicated, or are the reman builders just taking advantage of the Porsche name? I hope that I can make this work. I really would like to have a Porsche before I get to old to drive one.

Wow...just wow! My 2 cents - find a 911/996 without an IMS failure, buy it and drive it. There are plenty out there. Life is too short.

"I see that reman engines are pushing $20k. Are the parts really that expensive or is the build that complicated, or are the reman builders just taking advantage of the Porsche name? I hope that I can make this work. I really would like to have a Porsche before I get to old to drive one." All of the above! You need to do some serious research/reading before you jump in with both feet. It sounds like you've got plenty of mechanical experience, so you've certainly got the skills to do the work. The main caveat being that there are MANY, MANY "gotcha's" with these engines. You'd be wise to try to take one of FSI/Jake Raby's "hands on" classes (preceded by the online course) before attempting a full "rebuild"... BTW the 996 IS a 911 regardless of what the aircooled guys say...

GPappy, I hope you paid less than $6,000 for that Porsche because in the end the rebuilt engine will cost you $20k or close to that. You could go with a used engine and maybe get it replaced for around $12K. Please post pictures of the car.

I had scored cylinders on my 02 911 and rebuilt myself. Cost was ~18k CND. Bolts alone you're looking at $2-3K. Not joking. Wife wasn't impressed when I walked in with a $2500 bag of bolts. lol

Quotes source post: 14331113

He didn't buy it yet. A used engine is your cheapest bet with that car, but you can buy decent 996 series 911s for 13-20k US. There are periodic rebuild courses for these cars if you search google or the forum for "996 rebuild course".

Quotes source post: 14331175

Thank you for the reply. I was hoping that someone who had rebuilt one would respond. $18k (even CNS) seems high to rebuild one yourself but I knew Porsch parts were expensive. I am doing my research first. The car has 25k miles on it and looks immaculate. That is why I was considering it. He wants $10k for it which is about $15k less than similar cars around here. I thought that if I could rebuild the motor for $5000 (my last small block check cost leads than $3000 in parts and machine work) or so it would be worth my time. $15k not so much. After all, I could pay $25k and have the IMS fail in that one too. At least this way I would know what I had. Thank you for the input. I will have to think about this some more.

Quotes source post: 14331220

If engine rebuilds were only $5K you wouldn't even have the opportunity to buy that car. In fact, threads like these wouldn't exist. Motors would blow up, people would have them rebuilt and then they would drive happily away.

Quotes source post: 14331230

Agreed.

I think you should read up a bit on IMSB failure. The collateral damage can be so severe that you just don't know what you are working with until the engine is taken apart. No one can give you a precise $ for a rebuild, only a range, because you won't know what you have to replace until you have it apart. Thus my original position - if you want a 911/996 go find one that doesn't have an IMSB failure. If however you are up to the challenge of the expense and time involved to do a DIY teardown, which also might result in the engine being toast anyway, well then go for it. Many expensive specialty tools required for engine disassembly. Look up Flat Six Innovations, RND engines and an epic thread on Ashai's engine rebuild here on Rennlist, or the one by dporto. Good luck.

Just to add to the above: I've rebuilt two stroke engines, a VW and done Chevy V8s a few times. From what I have read there is no way in "H" I would even think once about rebuilding an M96 engine. Besides price for parts and tooling as DB says life may be too short to do this job. My hat is off in great respect to those who do the rebuilds and document their progress and issues on this forum. It only reinforces my non-desire to get involved in that project. Your choice, of course, but if it was me I would find one that is running or buy the blown up one and replace the engine with an engine of your preference.

Quotes source post: 14331514

The M96 engine is the 1st engine I've rebuild from ground up. it can be done.

Quotes source post: 14331644

Like I said...

Quotes source post: 14331220

Seems a lot for a roller, even an immaculate low mileage one

Quotes source post: 14331220

Must you have the rear seats? You can get an early Boxster S, which is still every bit as good as a 911, for the $10-$12k range.

I've rebuilt a few engines too, but Porsche engine parts are so pricy that you really need to know exactly what the engine needs before the budget can be assumed.

^that was easy for me. Everything new inside the engine, I only want to open this thing once. I ended up doing it twice but whatever.

"Look up Flat Six Innovations, RND engines and an epic thread on Ashai's engine rebuild here on Rennlist, or the one by dporto. Good luck." Mine wasn't/isn't even close to a full rebuild (even though it sometimes felt like it took forever...). I didn't even remove the heads - Cam covers only. I only replaced things I could access from outside the crankcase (IMSB, Chain tensioners, cam chains, water pump/thermostat, some hoses etc...). The True rebuild threads are Ahsai and AWD Guy.

Quotes source post: 14331746

It does - let him sit on it for a few months and see if he'd rather have $8500 in cash in his pocket than a non-running 911

On top of the 14-16K that is invested in parts and processes for my engines, and the 150+ hours it takes to process a project from start to finish come the developmental costs that go into the overhead rate... That, and the money spent to Patent protect our intellectual property. This is a real business, with real development, and real costs. We will be paid for what we create.

For anyone considering an M96 rebuild I suggest first accumulating all the dimensional specifications required. I'll save you some time. You can't find them on line, nor in published literature. So how will you do a rebuild if you don't know the tolerances ? Then there are the measurements required. Unless you are an FAA cert. Aviation or F1 mechanic you are unlikely to have either the tools nor the skills required. Yes, the M96 is 'different' to the SBC. Then there is a long list of quirks to find and deal with. Like - probably do not fit new oil control rings - leave the old ones in exactly the same position you found them, and the issue of pinning the rings, and the IMS ,and..... The intelligent solution is a Flat 6 Class. I know of no other. I wish I had done that before I rebuilt my M96. I couldn't because I was doing hospice care for a Parent . But imho Jake's class is a prudent investment of time and money if you are committed to the M96. The alternative is a punt with a "good used" engine from a reputable source. Then sell the old engine to someone like me who may eventually take the Class. Yemv. Good Luck.

You won't find these. They do not exist. We gathered our own values from tearing down brand new engines, and measuring everything. Specs for this engine simply do not exist. They were never intended to be "rebuilt".

I think that was the same point that Schnell Gelb was pointing out when he said they're not online anywhere. Since you're Jake Raby (I have picked up on subtle cues that suggest you might be somewhat...um...detail-oriented), is it safe to assume that for at least some engines, you took measurements from more than one brand new engine? If so, I'm curious how consistent the specs are from engine to engine. Were there any significant inconsistencies? Or a pattern of inconsistencies?

Quotes source post: 14332564

The numbers were all over the place.. it took many engines to get sold numbers, then we've had to make our own specs and build test engines to prove them.... then tear those down and measure it. This took years. The specs are not available anywhere, not just online... Not even in the Factory archives.

Quotes source post: 14331175

That is absolutely ridiculous. I bet I could make a fortune manufacturing parts for this darn car. Make the parts higher quality, sell them at a quarter the price, and still make a killing. $2500 for bolts?

Parts list for rebuild off the top of my head just to go back as standard Main bearings Big end bearings Thrust bearings Oil jets Maybe little end also Con rod bolts Bearing carrier bolts Cylinder head bolts Cam end plugs All timing chains All timing chain tensioning paddles and guides Full engine gasket set Special gasket sealant Uprated ims New piston rings if your changing them New piston wrist pin clips New water pump New thermostat Oil pump drive upgrade New timing chain tensioners New RMS New AOS Cylinder head gaskets Valve guide oil seals Possible new set of lifters 997 oil baffles Specialist cleaning of all re used parts block heads etc All fluids and filters plugs etc Possible flywheel and clutch kit Probably new engine mounts New variocam chains and pads Probably new coil packs I've probably missed some stuff and that's without stuff like a scored cylinder from pickup etc This is just back to standard without costs like cylinders and new pistons and forged rods and ims solution and arp bolts to bullet proof the engine !! Also the crank can be a pain as with my original engine I had a damaged big end journal , these cranks CANNOT be reground and polished as the hardening is too thin and only on the surface , second hand cranks are rare in a usable state which makes you have no choice but to look for another engine then you will probably need to rebuild that as it will be tired! I know as I did this!! On the plus side you can get decent money for good parts like heads etc but if the valves have bent the valve seats and combustion chambers might be a mess! Then!!! You need to do loads of research as it's easy to mess up the build, also you need the engine rebuild tools to insert the piston wrist pins and clips then to time in the cams!! It's doable but not cheap, basically when you take the engine apart your left with just the big chunks of metal that are re usable if not damaged , all the little bits are junk , there's so much that just gets chucked and costs add up buying new to rebuild , piston rings alone cost a fortune but you may not need them depends on which advice you follow I had my cylinders honed at Hartech and they advised me on new rings which is why I changed. It's an amazing engine to work on and I enjoyed doing it but it's costly and stressful at times!! I'm not saying don't rebuild as I did rebuild but know what your in for at the start !! Then look at how much the difference is to using a pro like Jake and make your decision !

Quotes source post: 14332788

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that. By all means if you think it's a worthwhile venture, go for it... Seems to me that if that market was as big as you think, someone would be taking advantage of it. It sure would be nice if we could rebuild an engine for 10k or so...

Quotes source post: 14332788

Many have had that attitude. All have failed. The development costs alone start at six figures for most everything we touch. I have spent over 100k In a single quarter before. No development equals off shore made, substandard junk.

Quotes source post: 14332816

No disrespect, but that's probably how you got started.

Quotes source post: 14332812

The market is probably not that big for multiple vendors, parallel R&D, etc. Hence you have Jake. I have no issues with this. If there are no specs available/published on an engine and you have to measure many new engines just to get the tolerances...then it's gonna cost a fortune.

Quotes source post: 14332788

go price out ARP head bolts, bearing carrier bolts, & Rod bolts. add 30% for me since im CDN. now your 1/10 the way there!

Quotes source post: 14332878

LOL, I already did that before your suggestion. Still, unbelievable. When I first bought my car I was talking to an Indy and he mentioned a new intermediate shaft was $3500. My first thought was "why hasn't someone bought one, measured it, figured out what is made of, and made a copy?". Just looking at it you could have one machined for a fraction of that. I may be all wet, but even if it was made from unobtanium and coated with unicorn dust and forged from the hammer of Thor, why couldn't an alternative be made? I'm not trying to be smug...it just doesn't make sense. Somebody please enlighten me.

Quotes source post: 14332845

Absolutely not. I got started working on VW engines in a hog pen with a dirt floor, and no power. I created the rest by busting my *** 18 hours a day, working 400 days in a row without a day off, and by sacrificing everything. I have never sold off shore made junk. All of my developments are self- funded, and I refuse to compromise. Its easy to sit there and think this is lucrative by looking at the figures. I own 7 businesses, and this is the least lucrative of all those, and it involves the biggest pains in the *** of all of them combined. If you decide to play this game, don't expect it to be easy, and you'll have to get used to failure. You will fail more than you succeed. Within 1 year you will want to strangle most every person you come into contact with, as they have unreal expectations, and are demanding.

As far as the price of a new IMS, that Indy was wrong. The most I have seen them sell for is 1,309.00 Most of the time they are 1100.00 That said, this part requires the gears and sprockets to be hobbed. The tooling alone for this will cost you 20k if you already have the machines. When you go to a machine shop they make you buy and maintain this special tooling. Hobbing gears is the most expensive of all the things I have done. Then is the runout on that shaft is out of spec, you get the throw it away. You have to smil about that, you can't cry about it. I've spent 18 hours machining one part and then make one cut .002" too small and wasted all of that time. I could go on, and on.

Quotes source post: 14332953

i bet you make awesome mix tapes

Did I say my 4.0 is an f'g beast? Well yes it is! Thank you Jake.

Quotes source post: 14332481

I didn't have or do any of that. I had the machine shop clean everything and asked for thorough inspection of the cranshaft, rods, heads, bearing carrier case. I brought in all the old bearings also for them to inspect. The IMS and IMSB was sent to LNE to get checked out, and to my surprise they sent me all new stuff. The machine shop does all the Audi/Porsche dealer stuff and they've seen a few 996's come through. I figured (and my engine building mentor) that following LNE's instructions and using the right parts, we would be fine. if measurements are out of spec, what was I going to do anyways?

Hi Jake, thanks for mentioning the word "hobbing", since I had never heard it before. So I read briefly in the internet, looked at some pictures. It sounds like that is the actually cutting process for gears and sprockets. But I am curious, I was wondering how the IMS is delivered when ordered? Looked at the autoatlanta parts list, and it appears to be whole and complete (various versions, one is $1,485.04). http://www.autoatlanta.com/porsche-p...section=103-10 Does this mean the part doesn't come ready to install, and more machining is required? Is there a reason for that, for example does it have to be machined to match each specific engine? Thanks!

Quotes source post: 14332937

by that I meant you got into what you do because you saw a need to repair these engines and make the process either better or cheaper or both. If you hadn't succeeded in doing one of those you wouldn't be here. As far a business goes, everybody who attempts to do so fails at some point, including myself. That and it is never easy, if it was everybody would be in business for themselves. I don't know why you are talking about offshore junk, I never implied or insinuated that. You are the only one doing a good job out there and if what you describe is the required process to go to market, then the cost is the cost. I don't begrudge a person for profiting from their endeavors. My initial comment about a $2500 bag of bolts is just what it sounds, a reaction to the cost of a bag of bolts.

imagine how I felt!

Quotes source post: 14333147

The unit comes complete with M97 IMSB. You can install it as it is, if you want to accept what the factory gives you, or you can fit an M97 version of the IMS Solution. This is much more than a "business". The business part is the necessary evil for me. I hate business. I hate money. I started this place because I wanted to build engines, and build them my way, and use my own damn parts to do it, with no one to answer to. I never intended for it to grow as much as it has, and I have to constantly keep it from growing more than it already has. I see people in this industry grow right out of their own business. They become successful, get sloppy, and they end up like all the other compromised people out there. Then.... It crashes. They lose focus, they fold up. Happens on a monthly basis. What my point was is this: Don't look at the price you pay for something and think there's a ton to be made from this. You will not know the costs, sacrifices, or BS involved until YOU make that part and YOU deal with that person who cannot be pleased. This isn;t like just having some store and selling people a loaf of bread. This stuff has to be developed, applied (for years before it is perfected, and respected) and constantly supported, and evolved. Then, in the case of distribution, pricing tiers have to be set up and everyone wants their part. At the end of the day it has to be invented, developed, practically applied, tested, torn down, evaluated, measured, re- applied, and then after about 5 years it can be trusted. Then you have to pay some bastard at a magazine to advertise it for a few thousand per month, and fight with him wanting one for his own car for free. Then, after that you get to deal with clowns on forums that are talking about how good or bad it is, based off what some other clown said about it on some other forum, and neither of them have even touched the damn thing. They don;t own a tool box, and if they did, they wouldn't know how to open it- yet, they are experts. The modern world, these opinions, and "social media" sucks. The majority of it is misinformation from pretenders and forumites. First hand information is disrespected, and isn't valued. It comes across as "that guy is trying to sell me something", when "that guy" is the only damn person out there that has actually experienced it. Thats why I develop. When the project is done, I am done. I HATE selling anyone, anything. I have literally thrown things away or destroyed them to avoid selling them. That said, you think these engines are expensive? My most expensive engines don't even fit Porsches... They fit old VWs, and the cheapest one is just as expensive as your M96 engine. My wait list for those engines is longer than the M96. Most days I can say that I had more fun working in that old building with a dirt floor than I do today. Tonight I'm working on a 40 year old Swiss Military vehicle that hasn't ran in 5 years. Draining old gas from it, and being eaten alive by mosquitoes while I work on it in the yard, to keep the shop from smelling like dead gas. I get more satisfaction from this type of thing than anything else these days. Its real, its satisfying, and I don;t have to hear some screwed up opinion, or anyone whine about how their center cap isn't the way it was on their car before they shipped it... Or how someone's plastic ash tray "rusted" while we had the car. That one tops them all. It makes me want to sell every Porsche I own! Ok, rant off!

Quotes source post: 14333371

On the other hand, you get a lot of people constantly posting to thank you for your RL input, myself included.

Quotes source post: 14333578

Yes, some. It takes a couple thousand of those to make up for one demanding, smart ***, keyboard warrior, though.

Quotes source post: 14333615

trust me me I know how hard it is, but you need to let that stuff go. It's actually bad for your health to get upset about bad people. These are miserable people that get joy out of attacking others. Go fix something instead, you'll feel better. Now if if I could take my own advice more often....

Quotes source post: 14332797

This is about my list also. In addition I needed new scavenge pumps and a new oil pump and had hartech put new cilinders in. With some additional specialist tools the costs add up. The whole process of assembling the engine was a very satisfying activity however and 4 years onward the engine is still performing well.

Quotes source post: 14333653

agreed. ****ty people are everywhere. You have to ignore them and keep on truckin.

Quotes source post: 14333110

The link below shows the risks of trusting the wrong rebuilder. Some of the big names in Porsche repair fail at M96 rebuilds. Some do the work in house, some sub it out - you'll never know how much or to who. You will never know what specs they use. And the consequences can be dire. The short version is that they failed - twice ! That was a very expensive, failed rebuild. http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-r...ter-build.html

You WILL get exactly what you pay for. The main issue I see comes from people that don;t even know how the engine operates, yet they try to "build" it. I have seen this in my classes, where I even allow competitors to attend (gives me a chance to size them up). I once had a guy attend that was the "lead builder" for someone well- known. He didn't even know how to use the rear main seal installation tool. He also didn't understand the coolant flow path through the engine, or the oil system pathways, either. To most everyone this is like pulling apart your bicycle when you are a kid... Take it apart, and just put it back together the way that it was. The issue is, if you don;pt know how it works, you'll never be effective. The "racer" shops are the worst. They should stick to bolting on struts, building roll cages, and going around and around in circles wasting fuel, tires, and time.

Quotes source post: 14334393

I was the builder. I had no one to blame but myself if things were to go wrong. I told Charles and Jake this when I 1st bought my stuff from LNE. My mentor friend even told me he wasn't touching anything. He made me hammer the wrist clip pins in. He made me do the timing. I was the one with the parts & tools in my hands. he helped when second hands were needed (putting bearing carrier case inside, putting 2nd half case on, etc) and offered his advice when it was needed. He was the one to notice we missed dowels between the cases. I missed it, so im glad he was there, even thought we had to split the case for a 2nd time. It also helped (tremendously) that Jake and Charles always answered my questions within 24hours.

Quotes source post: 14333371

This is funny because it's so true. Thanks for the refreshing honesty

Quotes source post: 14333615

Uhh ya... like RL'er AnthonyGS said,let it go.. You are at 2000+ to 1- Those are cray odds Don't be the Phil Collins of Porsche engine rebuilds/repairs

Quotes source post: 14331111

BTW the 996 IS a 911 regardless of what the aircooled guys say... Thanks for adding this sentence

Posted by AmberGramps in that other forum: "Everyone thinks they've got a 911 but Porsche stopped making the 911 in 1989." ^^^I think the 964/993 guys are going to be apoplectic when they find out their mega-buck 911's aren't "911's" !!!

My next Hands- On rebuild school is in November, the online "101" class is in September... Just do it!

Quotes source post: 14332481

Can you (or someone else who knows) elaborate on the mindset of leaving the old oil control rings in in the same position? I've heard this before, but not explained in detail...

when your cylinders wear in to a oval shape, it doesn't do any good to install with new oil rings which will be close to perfect circle on a oval cylinder, at least using the old rings in the same cylinder and position, you have some oil control, at best a crap shoot.

Quotes source post: 14373130

There are more quirks than just this and more even to this particular issue. You must leave every ring in exactly the position it was.Then pin some/all in that exact position. Assuming you have measurable ovality. Now tell us how you will measure ovality ,to what decree of accuracy and precision. Otherwise it is just a variation of the "Square peg /round hole "story. And I know maybe 10% of the M96 quirks at most !!

Quotes source post: 14373130

So, the moral of this story is not to "rebuild" an engine with oval bores. No compromise.

Quotes source post: 14373206

Exactly it is not within tolerance it is not going to work.

There is another aspect imho & experience. Many a fool (with inadequate M96 education -like me) can slap together an M96 and it will run. But for how long and with what defects ? The fool will have wasted all the time and money on new parts ,special tools and equipment.He may have $spent countless hours on Forums and reading to find a few specifications and accumulated thousands of Posts. There are wiser alternatives to dealing with the broken M96 situation.That is the only piece of M96 wisdom I am confident about :-)

I've been chatting with Jake for 15 years on the samba. I get that a m96 rebuild is a complete retooling of your toolbox from the air-cooled VW setup. But having been *****-deep on these boxer engines for a lifetime lends me to believe that tackling a rebuild isn't an impossibility for me. The killer with these engines is the parts cost. But you do get what you pay for - esp with pushing these rotating masses past 500hp sitting 24" from us.