What is so Special About these Cars?

I'm the "proud owner" of a 2003 996 TT, and I like the car quite a bit, and I've test driven a lot of used Porsches, and I have to say, what is the buzz all about? Buying a used Porsche is a real PITA, to use internet parlance. Porsche owners think the marque is really really special, but I am just somewhat lost here. Full disclosure; I'm a long time BMW owner, I think that what they are making now in BMW-land is a bunch of garbage, other than maybe the M2, but BMW did have a long and heralded history as the maker of fine German sports cars/sedans/coupes, whatever, and certainly their past cars are not bad. What is so special about Porches that one should search high and low for them, overpay for them on the basis of mileage and age, put up with all the highfalutin BS from the current (selling) owners, what the F is it that makes these cars so special to warrant the effort? I'm mystified. I have no interest in selling my one and only Porsche; it is a keeper, a good car, and I'm glad I bought it. Would I do it again? Not sure, probably not worth the effort. I'm sure I am missing something. Please, someone out there, tell me the error of my ways. I remain totally mystified by the regard the marketplace seems to have for these cars, which have way more than their share of mechanical and other problems as they age, and which are not immune to what happens to older cars, just, it seems that it costs about 3X as much to keep them running as just about any other car (including other Germans). Please enlighten me.

There is no substitute.

There's no substitute for anything. My dog is very special (to me), however I would have difficulty convincing most other dog owners that my dog is superior . . . . There are a lot of cool cars out there; Porsches certainly are on the list. What would you rather have, a great example of a 15 year old Porsche 911, or a similarly great example of an E46 M3? I don't think the answer is a straightforward yes to the 911. And I can tell you with absolute certainty that it would be way easier to find a hassle free transaction for the M3, at a fair price, than it would be for the 911. Similarly, I own a Z3M Coupe (Clownshoe car). These are rarer than just about any Porsche other than for a true exotic. I could buy one with 3 days research at a fair price and it would be a great car in good condition, and the negotiations would be very straightforward. For a Porsche? Not so much. So again I ask, what is the fuss about, why are these things (Porsches) so special, and I haven't found an answer. If asked, I would tell serious car collectors/hobbyists, to give the Porsches a pass, not worth the hassles and aggravations, for what you get.

Porsches are imperfect in just the right areas.

Just took my 996 TT out on a drive this morning, then let a houseguest/friend from France (who says he owned 3 different Porsches in the distant past) take it for a spin. It's a fabulous car, but it was so unbelievably difficult to find a good one. I have looked at a lot of older, used, BMWs and Porsches. When you find an abused BMW, the owner apologizes for it, and generally says it was an owner before him who didn't take care of the car. When you find an abused Porsche, the owner/seller says it is perfect, claims all sorts of maintenance and repairs that he can't document, tells you that the garage that did the PPI is wrong, asks way more than the car is worth, and you walk away in disgust, or politely excuse yourself. Who has time for that? Not me.

Well that's all just like, your opinion, man. I'm not sure what you mean, actually. I sold my E46 M3 and bought a very nice 2006 Cayman. It was a normal car buying experience and the price I paid was reasonable and in line with what I wanted to spend. It took a couple weeks to find the right car, but that was part of the fun. So, what's the problem? Maybe I just got lucky.

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Caymans are way easier than 911s. I probably should have limited my observation(s) to 911s. I almost bought 2 different Cayman S's, and although there was a lot of BS with the 2nd one that I didn't buy, I don't think it was intentional on the part of the seller. He got told stuff by the former owner and believed it, he said, even though in the end he couldn't document it, and it turned out to not be true.

Champignon, you made a comparison to an E46 M3. I have a 99 996 C2. My buddy has an E46 M3. These 2 cars are comparable. Both around $17k. What's so special is only that you can buy such an amazing car like these 2 for such a low price, compared to, say, anything else in the same price range. And where are you going to find another car that doesn't depreciate any longer, is fairly reliable, and is is such a good driving car? Either these Porsche's or BMWs... Lest not forget that I think it's a bit silly that an E30 M3 goes for $100k...is that car really that special either? The one thing about Porsche, though, is the history. The Porsche family comes from some of the most talented people designing cars in the world. They are some of the winningest brands in history. Some of the most reliable. Like Volvo for safety and Toyota for reliability, we have to have respect for those that appear at the top of their respective games.

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There is a lot of connection to Adolph Hitler and the *****, also, and if we are going to tout the positives, the negatives need to be pointed out as well. Of course, BMW is not immune to that sort of criticism, either. There are a lot of really nice, fun to drive cars, with manual transmissions out there in the used marketplace right now, that are real deals. A few years from now, if people who want to drive manual performance cars are still allowed to do so, this will be looked at as a golden era for picking up this sort of car, which is going to disappear from the marketplace at any sort of reasonable price.

^^ I'm not sure Porsche had all that much control when Adolf approached Ferdinand and ask him to design the poeople's car.

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Like which ones? Any cars I've looked at that have more than 2 seats will either suffer from massive depreciation, are more expensive, or aren't in the same class as a 911 or M3. I went through a bunch of car options before I bought this 911.

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Massive depreciation comes with the territory, that's why these cars are a value. I'm a huge fan of the now-defunct BMW 1-Series. A 135i in good condition and with reasonable mileage is a steal these days. They can be tuned and given upgraded suspensions for very little. As such they then become basically M cars. There's an active resale market in the Z3Ms, coupes (Clownshoe) and Convertibles. The Z4Ms haven't been as well received however I've heard that their failings can be corrected with minor suspension changes, alignment, and tires. And of course there is the 1M, which is kind of expensive.

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The only car in this example that has more than 2 seats - the 135i - starting prices are $15k, which is 911 starting pricing. While I love the 135i and have driven my sister's 135i, some of the cars run hot and have some usual German issues, which are expensive. The tuning of this car does make it quite a comparable street car. But not sure it will hold up on the track, however. I also looked at a BRZ/FRS/Toyota86. Problem is, 180 horsepower is not enough for me. Maybe a well sorted Z350 would work. But again, the pricing creeps up to 911 996 pricing. I had a Mini Cooper S and liked it, but it's FWD, and not very reliable. I looked at Lexus and other Japanese cars, but you either have to give up a stick shift, or have FWD. Other than BMWs, are there other cars you like better than Porsche? Taking a look at a Ford GT350 is worth a serious consideration. Incredible car that I'd rank up there with a 911, but we'll have to see how well that car holds up over time.

In the two seater category, Hondas S2000 is big fun on low budget, but somewhat hard to find. I agree on the 1 series. I was very close to pulling the trigger on one a couple pf years back.

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Agree on S2000. A top choice car and value for the money.

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I actually owned a BRZ for 1 year, during which time I forced myself to put 2000 miles on it :-) They have 200HP or did when I got mine, but it's woefully inadequate for a sports car. The interior is cheaper looking than what you get with a base (rental car) level Chevy Aveo, and there is zero soundproofing. Aside from that, I rather liked the car :-)

I've owned and driven a vast multitude of fast cars in my lifetime. Very few make me as happy as my lowly 996 or 91 ZR-1. Both cars have fatal flaws that many are quick to point out. The 996 is literally go kart like almost like a Miata but with an appropriate amount of power. It's also something you don't see on every corner. The ZR-1 has god's engine under hood: the LT5. Until you drive one you will never understand it but it's wrapped in a completely flawed C4 Corvette package. What a car! honestly BMW sedans aren't nearly as fun as the AWD S and RS cars from Audi. I've owned quite a few of them. Nothing is faster when the weather deteriorates. if absolute performance is all you care about then buy a newer Mustang or Camaro. They are ridiculously fast. Need a track car? Beat a new GT350 or Z28 for less money. They also haul people and groceries about as good as the M sedans until you get into a 5 series. And lastly just like Jeremy Clarkson, I could never be happy driving a BMW because of the average BMW owner. It's like Dave Matthews. I'm not opposed to his music per se, but his fans are obnoxious. You should rush out and buy as many BMWs as you can afford. You can get a lot of 318s for 20k. Instead of having time to troll the Porsche forum you'll be plenty busy fixing your cars instead. You are a BMW guy. I get it, why don't you? You'll hate a 911. 318s are where you need to invest.

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I have a 2016 Golf R, which has the same Haldex system as the Audis you cite, plus is reputed from various head to head comparison tests to be more fun to drive and more responsive than Audi AWD S and RS cars. In the winter, I have Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 XL tires on it. I also have a 2013 135i Coupe that I use in the winter, with Blizzaks on it all around on 18" wheels in a square (not staggered) setup). These are my 2, "winter cars," although they both get some use year round, on summer tires. I would much rather drive the 135i Coupe in any condition other than a very deep snowfall, which if possible I'd prefer to avoid driving in, period. The BMW is just a way more fun car to drive, hands down. I did put the PPK performance pack, boosting the HP on the BMW by around 20, this past spring, but the comparison is from last winter's driving when the two cars had almost identical HP (292 for the VW vs. about 300 for the BMW). RWD beats AWD in anything other than really bad traction situations, in this type of car (hot hatch or small sedan). Good snow tires can make up for the traction differences between AWD and RWD in most driving situations. Most online reviews I have read of recent year Audis like the ones you describe have been anything but flattering when it comes to describing how much fun they are to drive. Obviously, and self-evidently, from your post, this observation is not limited to owners of BMWS.

The Haldex system is rubbish and it's used in the TT and A3 (and Golf). It might even appear in the Q5. Using the launch control in a real S or RS Quattro car is something everyone should experience at least once. RWD does not always beat AWD. It's been pointed out on this forum more than once that the C4s is faster around the 'ring than a C2. The BMW forum called, their village troll is apparently missing.

Porsche always had something going on from the start. From lively to kwik to fast to bullet. What was BMW doing? 2002tii pretty, but a pig. After that nothing special until the M's appeared. Still not fast...Porsche always faster. BMW, Audi, Mercedes always followed, never taking a chance to be fast/handing first. Porsche was and is still fast though out. On top of that, Porsche never let the Corvette sit on top of the speed throne....ever. What car maker stayed with one model, hardly changing it all these years? Only one.

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Really? Okay history lesson time. 1990 Corvette ZR-1, ft. Stockton TX, 3 FIA world speed records and four other class records. Finally beaten by a prototype VW never sold to public on a better faster track. The Corvette did it with a new assembly line engine. The ZR-1 parked in my garage by my 996 has a commemorative sticker for the FIA world records. I'm pretty dang sure my antique Corvette will leave any of its contemporaries behind and many newer cars built today especially after 100 mph. They didn't call it The Beast for nothing. http://www.zr1netregistry.com/Information/PerformanceRecords/WorldRecords.aspx So do FIA world records count to you? The ZR-1 was faster than the exotics of its day and was just a cobbled together pile of American can do. Would you like to see video of a nickel balancing on the edge of a 25 year old 67k mile idle my engine too? Yes the beast is that smooth . And poking around the 1990 911 turbo top speed was 169-171. I'm pretty sure 175 for a 24 hour average has that covered by quite a bit. It's kind of interesting to note that none of the test magazines of the day ever really saw top speed in a ZR-1. They just didn't have the facilities available to them that are available today. And my dad, who actually drove a ZR-1 in Ft. Stockton noted the track there being a 5 mile oval bleed off a lot of speed in the corners. Dad wanted companies to do high speed testing on the 9 mile circle in Pecos TX instead. It was definitely a faster venue.

I was talking about stock production cars in a general sense.

Isn't Porsche the winningest manufacturer in the 24 hours of Le Mans?

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The ZR-1 is a factory production car. It's also a Corvette. And it was also faster than any other car of its day. I'm pretty certain that counters your Porsche has always been faster than the Corvette claim. I'm often wrong myself. Yes Porsche has the most LeMans wins.

The ZR1 is and was a limited production car unlike Porsche turbos that were in every show room decade after decade. The 1975 930 Turbo had 260hp at 2500 pounds. Corvette had a... real collector car...car crushers loved them (easy crush) with those rusted through frames...a pig.

Car race results are entirely irrelevant to anyone who owns a car to enjoy driving in normal situations. Porsche has made some good cars, BMW has made some good cars, and so have some other manufacturers. This thread was started having nothing to do with wither or not Porsche makes good cars; they obviously do. The thread was about what a PITA it is to buy a good Porsche, as opposed to other makes. And it is a huge PITA, and in my opinion, not rewarded in reality with what you get, in comparison to the extraordinary effort that has to be put out.

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Aluminum doesn't rust, genius. In 1990 GM produced more ZR-1s than Porsche did 911 turbos. Both are low production cars. We're not talking about a Taurus. You were wrong. I even gave you an easy out as everyone is wrong at times. Instead you went the route of the OP. You'd fit in better with the BMW crowd.

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I know you probably won't be able to grasp this concept, but I'm going to give it one last try anyway. Maybe the problem is the buyer/shopper and not the marque. Perhaps? I had no problems buying a Porsche. Your experience is probably unique to you.

Steel frames live and learn back then. OK so you say Corvettes are superior cars for the last 40 years compared to Porsche. I don't believe that.

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I found the opposite to be true. Most Porsche people take really good care of thier cars. Many are garage queens are not driven hard, most are in really good shape. When looking for M3s and M5s on the other hand, most were beat up, scratched, higher mileage, etc. I attributed this to a number of reasons. A BMW can be driven to the grocery store, to the movies, to church, on a track, by a teenager. While a Porsche could be driven in all those cases, they usually aren't. They are usually not someone's primary only car. Not anywhere near the level that BMWs are. So I found that finding a good 911 is actually pretty easy to do. They don't sell that fast, they made a bunch of them, and most are in great shape compared to other brands. I am guessing that a point you made about why some people are getting bent out of shape and investing a year or two, traveling all over the US, to find the perfect car, is more valid. For those folks, this is a hobby, and like a lot of hobbies, people start to become obsessed. I take your point, here, that folks are a little too crazy about a car. For this point, Porsche isn't THAT special that people need to obsess over. There are plenty of other specific models of cars that are way more interesting and valuable to start a car collection over.

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That's entirely subjective man. My Porsche buying experience was so easy. Met the guy, he had already gotten a ppi done(which I confirmed with the Indy shop) we went on a test drive, I gave him a deposit and came back 3 days later cash in hand and had my targa. I've dealt with plenty of cocksure salesmen in my day and have owned a lot of cars, and I've never had one marque attract the "snowflake" type of owner any more than any other, maybe you've just been dealing with the wrong sellers, or maybe you have an unrealistic attitude towards purchasing a higher end car( but I doubt it). But hey I feel you, the number one reason I got this targa is that I'm a glutton for punishment and have always had a special place in my heart for Porsche, so I'm willing to put up with some **** for my passion

I'm convinced the OP's problems stem more from his abrasive personality than anything having to do with perceptions around the car or its associated community. I'll agree that there are certain stereotypes that could easily apply to a variety of automotive communities. I'm no psychologist but this likely has to do with how our minds associate significant bias for things we know and are comfortable with, and couple that with the prestige the brand is known for and you get a tendency for haughtiness. But don't try to pretend this doesn't exist for BMW, ESPECIALLY for M cars. Obviously these stereotypes don't apply to everyone so my conclusion is you just got a few bad examples in your limited sample set. And as a current owner of an M4 in the market for a 911, my take on what's "special" about the 911 (and Cayman/boxster for that matter) is that it is purpose-built from the ground up as a sports car. The same can't be said for BMW, even the M series... and certainly not for any number of other cars out there save perhaps the S2000 and to a lesser extent the Miata- but those cars suffer from more budget constraint than Porsche. It really does put Porsche in a league of their own.

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Poser, and self-evident, loser. Welcome to the club!

Porsches are great sports cars. Well engineered, fast enough, fun enough, reliable, all weather capable, practical enough, classic design, unique sound and a few unique traits to make it feel special, and quite frankly, not a lot wrong with them to criticize. But they aren't a great value - the best margins in the industry have to come from somewhere. If you want the car that makes the most of your dollar, this isn't the right car. But if you just want a great car to drive no questions asked, they really fit the bill.

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I bet you're an absolute riot at parties. I'm guessing you probably have an outrageous accent to go along with it? You Tube

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Did you voice type this while staring into a mirror? That's the only way your post makes any sense.

Porsche makes good cars. Some have had serious flaws, for which Porsche has left the owners in the lurch (examples include IMS Bearing issues, need to drop the engine to fix just about anything of substance mechanically on these cars). Problem is with the Porsche resale market. And perhaps as illustrated in this and other threads, some of the people who own them.

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I think they do better than most. My Ducati's crankshaft broke while I was starting the bike. It was 30 months old. The warranty was 24 months with unlimited miles. I had spent just shy of $2000 getting the engine shim service done 600 miles before it happened. I asked the dealer I bought it new from about them (Ducati) sharing the cost of the repair - it was apparent Ducati got a batch of bad steel from a supplier and it ruined my motor - and the bike was only 2.5 years old. I was basically told to take a hike. The recent GT3 engine replacement program was a pretty stark contrast to that! What's wrong with the resale market? It's a free market, so ... is it just not what you want it to be? If the cars seem to cost too much it simply means others see more in the cars than you do and are willing to pay for it. As to the owners, I'm just not sure how that's something you can conclude with a sample of a few folks. I've had a very pleasant experience with PCA. Lots of great folks.

Yeah, if anything, the Douchbaggery in the realm of Porsche's is lower than many other makes, IMO

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For the record, I don't think one can extrapolate from people who post in forums to the larger audience of car owners, no matter what the make. Very few people on a percentage basis have the time to spend or choose to spend the time, on an online forum for their particular car. I have no opinion whatever of Porsche car owners nor of BMW owners, or for that matter Honda or Hyundai owners; Prius owners, however, **** me off a lot, whenever I encounter them in traffic and they block my attempts to go the speed limit, plus a little. I also have no opinion of PCA members, of whom I have met very few in real life. I'd consider joining, just I can't come up with a good reason to do so. I did find it to be a huge chore to buy a used Porsche, in this case a 996 TT. I'm not sure I would do it again. The window is closing for people who like the way that sporty cars used to be made (with manual transmissions and hydraulic steering). There was a time when you could buy them with a few years of age, right after the steepest part of the depreciation curve, at a good price, often with very low mileage. No one makes cars like this anymore, and the older they get, the less straightforward the purchasing becomes.

I have to agree with Champignon, but I do believe he is really talking about the 996TT in specific. I have been looking on and off now for some time, for a 996TT and have not found a car that has suited my needs yet. While the car is amazing, I often find myself contemplating whether it is worth it. With the prices that are being asked, I demand records, and some evidence of care or knowledge...which is surprisingly hard to find. I have looked outside of my local market with the exact same results. It may be because these cars are selling themselves, which allows for sellers to do next to nothing to sell them, I don't know, and I don't care, but for the most part that has been my experience. I have encountered nice sellers, but those cars have lacked records, etc. I am in Miami, and would love to buy a local car that I can put eyes on, and maybe it's Miami, but it is near impossible to find anything priced at a fair price from an owner with a brain. I am not looking for a low mileage, garage queen, which makes things more difficult...but I get the OP's points. One could pick up a Z06 or M car a bit easier for sure...not the same, but would certainly check off most of the boxes for less hassle and money. The reason I haven't pulled the trigger on a Z06 or M3/4 yet...well...because...it's not a 996TT.

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Just one clarification. S and RS Audis are Torsen. The crappy fwd based haldex system was never used in these cars.

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From a functional standpoint, I would strongly disagree that the current Haldex system used in the 2016/2017 Golf R is "crappy." The current interation of the Golf R is very good, for what it is. There are also no shortage of head to head comparisons of the Golf R vs. Audi S and RS cars in its size class (built on the same basic chassis) that seem to conclude, in the main, that the Golf R is a way more enjoyable car to drive, much more of a driver's performance car, than the Audis are, especially when cost is taken into consideration. Use your search engine of choice to find the very many, varied, reviews, on multiple sites. All of that having been said, my Golf R, to me, is my "practical utility car." I would much rather drive any of my other cars on a given day than the Golf. The Golf is useful for its 5 doors and hatchback/cargo carrying capacity, plus it goes pretty well in the snow especially with real snow tires installed. There are a couple of ultra expensive Audis that I think might be fun to drive (judgment reserved). Otherwise, they are gussied up pseudo-luxury VWs enrobed in fake luxury, a fleece job on the snobbish buying public. VWs ain't great either, just they are relatively cheap cars so what can one expect?

I just feel special when I drive Porsche. :-)

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I continually get compliments from strangers on my 996TT, a lot of which I think is related to the rather ostentatious GT2 wing the prior owner installed on it. I get occasional comments on my other cars, but the Porsche is in a whole other league. I'm not sure I really like that, all things being said, and it might attract vandalism when parked at the far reaches of a parking lot, especially when dark.

You don't like attention on Porsche it self or just the GT2 wing? I also don't like attention in general. Once I get onto my 997.1 I get some stares immediately How long did it take you to find your ideal Porsche?

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So, as I began to read this thread, I thought, oh, I am just like this guy, I began hunting for a 2003 Boxster S a few years back. Been a 20+ year BMW owner. Yep, I found a Boxster, but then had to spend a bunch of more money on replacing the IMS bearing. It's a fun car, but I still love my 2006 BMW 550i as a great all around car. Again, I am like the OP, I am so sad about how BMW's current offering is just blah. I wanted to love this brand forever. What happened BMW? As we get older, our needs change, and I am so excited to be the proud new owner of a Porsche Macan GTS. What an awesome vehicle. I am a lucky person, to be able to still own my BMW 550i and my Porsche Boxster S. It really sounds to me like the OP had an awful experience finding the Porsche he wanted, and that has really tainted his love for Porsche. I believe you can own both Porsche & BMW brands and be really happy.

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I wasn't mortally wounded by the buying process, just aggravated. In a way I wish I had unlimited storage, then I would just keep buying older MT cars, I'd probably never get my fill :-) There are still quite a lot of vintage BMW cars out there from the old days, but as time wears on their condition deteriorates, and given the steep depreciation curve, there isn't a whole lot of incentive for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th owners to keep them in pristine condition. The recently deceased 1-Series should be where the action is, these are the last "real" BMWs, and they are relatively modern in terms of creature comfort.

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The 1-series has just moved up to the 2-series, which is where it's at right now. The m235i and m2. These two cars are seriously good.

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I own 3 of the 1-Series, including a 1M, which I would not trade for a brand new M2 plus $50K. The 2 series is in general "mushy," and has electric steering. I have read that the electric power steering in the M2 is pretty good, but having driven scads of current model BMW loaners, with electric steering, I wouldn't take any of them, for free. On the M2, judgment is reserved, but I have no real interest in it.

Ferraris, Porsches and Lambos Perception is everything. Does any other brand fit between those two marks?

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When Chris Harris drove the M2, he still preferred his 1M, even back to back. He didn't mention mushy while sliding around the track in this video: https://youtu.be/-xkv4PiD0To

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Aston Martin and Bugatti for starters. And trust me I often park in the same garage as a few lambos and ferraris, a 996 isn't really comparable.

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I would add McLaren to this list.

On behalf of the Porsche motoring public, I sincerely apologize to the original poster for having to deal with the range of characters one might meet while buying a used Porsche. It is unforgivable that an esteemed buyer of the OP's caliber would have to navigate the mine field that is the secondary Porsche market. No warranty, light documentation, narratives that compete with reality - these things and many more amount to a near-insurmountable hurdle that no human should be subjected to when buying a 9th car for leisure purposes. I know of no clearer sign of humanity's descent into lawless tomfoolery than the pains used automobile enthusiasts must endure when sourcing a correct vintage and condition 911. OP - I salute you. Not just for having the character to withstand the droves of temerarious 911 sellers, but also for having the intestinal fortitude and compass to bring said issues to light. You are a hero. If only more souls among us would have the courage to bring such issues to light. One can hope, right? Best Regards, TTB

Or, what's so special about the OP anyway?

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His honor is not to be questioned. I'm not sure if you know, but the OP has Multiple BMWs. And the delicate sensibilities of a true gentleman. If only we had finishing school under our respective belts, maybe then we would understand. I don't feel entirely comfortable saying these things because I know the OP's character is of a caliber I can only hope to emulate. One day.

I've owned multiple Fords, Audis and 3 p cars now. The OP can go cliff diving in a desert for all I care.

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Completely incorrect. The s3, RS3 and TTS and TTRS are all Haldex. Haldex is not "crappy" it just does the job differently. In fact it is more capable of distributing torque than the torsen - up to 100% to either front or rear, whereas torsen is 70:30 max either way. Technically they are completely different - the Haldex is more tuneable, being electronically controlled. I've had both (A4s - torsen, S3s - Haldex, ur quattro - torsen, Amarok - torsen) - they are both brilliant and leave the BMW XDrive laughably for dead.

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This: He stimulated an entertaining discussion. Got up some sensitive noses. He was clearly a little tongue in cheek and enjoys winding people up (aka trollish). This is a car forum and should be able to deal with different viewpoints and, with a couple of exceptions, didn't degenerate into name calling. On many other forums the language and offence given and taken would have been worlds apart - says a lot for Porsche guys I enjoyed it.

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Source for this?? The only times (official) I could find were 8:13 for the C2, and 8:16 for the C4S - I think that's slower But you can't really compare times done on different days. I've raced in the Nurburgring 24 Hour 3 times, and the track conditions can change hour to hour, not just day to day, and affect different parts of the track differently - I've been up the mountain on slicks in pouring rain (no fun at all!!) while it was dry and sunny on the F1 track. Tyre choice makes a big difference too. 3 seconds is nothing - the most you could say is there's very little between them. As you'd expect. The C4S is 150KG heavier than the C2, slower to 100kph, and slower top speed - weight rules! But in slippery conditions 4WD will usually beat 2WD. In dry the advantage is lost, but not slower - weight does that.

Not to mention the normal non-classic / not-too-enthusiasts type, I owned Honda Integra DA3, Civic EG4, Toyota Altezza SXE10, BMW E46 325, E90 335, E36 M3 (4 door manual classic example), before joining the club. I started with the entry 987.2 Cayman S with PDK, loved the ride! Speed, control, power, comfort ... too well balanced for daily commute and a weekend morning drive. The only thing is about the engine ... I can barely reach it easily for "self-maintenance" job. So with 2 years of ownership, I decided Porsche's are more than a trustworthy car which I can manage to get an older model ..... 2000 996 cabriolet !! With 60000km on the clock, sound of engine runs smooth without immediate attention of the IMS problem (fingers crossed). First day of ownership, I had to replace the a/c compressor. Then clean the throttles and improve fuel consumption significantly. I have heaps of minor projects on hand with this baby which makes me proud of keeping it in my garage. All in all, FF -> FR -> MR -> RR possess different characteristics and all are fun to drive with. 911 is the classic representative for RR, although an air-cooled 993 may be a more classic representative, I enjoyed the 996 with more modern interior equipment. So, if you ask what is so special with any 911, I would simply say, 911 means RR and RR means 911.

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Exactly - being stuck with one marque only, even one model for some, means you miss out on the driving pleasure that other cars can give. My 911 is new to me - only 8 weeks, but already it's undoubtedly the most engaging and communicative drive, but I totally love the crazy chipped Megane with the same power and more torque than the 911, same weight, and all through the front wheels - that's VERY different, and a hoot. The Integra Type R is different again - no torque, but that high end scream of the B18CR (JDM) is intoxicating and the chassis so sharp and forgiving - and only 1060kgs. The ur quattro is totally different again - from a different era - heavy controls but refined with steering and grip it's got no right to have on paper! the E39 M5 - totally brilliant engine - 400hp500NM all from NA V8 and manual shifter - stunning touring car, and a sleeper to the uninformed. See the strengths in other cars, keep your eyes open and enjoy all you can.

Just wanted to thank the OP. Had a terrific dump while reading about his extensive search and car knowledge.Thank you.

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

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Why is it a PITA? I had the easiest purchasing experience of my life. Saw the car, wanted the car, got a rental, drove 700 miles, did a quick run around, and brought the damn thing home. This is almost as good as the IMSB threads. I put in no more purchasing effort than any other car, because it's just that. A car.

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That's so ironic Bill. I was just in Nashville a few moons ago on vacation and stopped by to look at Red Mk1 Porsche with an aero kit. The sales manager came out and said, "Sorry buddy, but this one is probably sold by some guy up north." He said, "no worries, you don't want it anyways, this one has a problem that *we* all know about and will give the Yankee about 4-5 months and BAAM, it will grenade itself. LONG LIVE DIXIE!!!!"

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Wait wait wait. You mean to tell me they KNEW the IMSB was at the end of it's life?!?! At first I was going to take this secret to the grave, but the fragile IMSB turned into millions of tiny pieces on the delivery drive home. I'm a little embarrassed because I should have known better, but C'est La Vie!

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Originally Posted by AnthonyGS View Post: RWD does not always beat AWD. It's been pointed out on this forum more than once that the C4s is faster around the 'ring than a C2. This article describes the Nurburgring testing which resulted in the C4S being faster, look on page 81: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post14125769

So, to fan the flames, I'll give my opinions on BMW. (with prejudice!) the majority of BMW owners would have done better to just get a Camry (driven by status and image vs. love of a car). 911 owners specifically want and cherish their car. after about 3 years, all BMWs look old and outdated (to my eye). Something about the constant redesigns just make the majority look like outdated models. 911s always appear current and credible no matter how old they are. BMWs seem to be souped-up sedans, 911s are sports cars.

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BMWs also notoriously fickle near their limits. Much less mechanical grip than 911 platform. More prone to oversteer when you don't need or want it, which makes pushing their new super-sedan/coupe M-cars an incredibly dangerous task. That said, I really want an E39 M5 or E36 M3. Much more balance which translates into an ability to push those cars without the insane power that can overwhelm the chassis in newer, drag-oriented cars. The early 2000s M-cars are some of my favorites of all time. Timeless lines & great powertrains.

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No way, BMW have classic lines and styling that ages gracefully. The E46 still looks great. Souped up sedans? Yes, but that's always been why they are so great. Real Back seats and a real trunk, but still sporty and can hang with a 911.

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Really? Unless you're talking about the new ones. I've driven lots of different BMWs from the '00s and they all had a very good weight distribution and great handling, even very predictable at the limit, easy to control. Again, Chris Harris didn't mention any of this on that video. Even the Top Gear new M5 was "the best in class" that Lexus' LFA, Cadillac, Mercedes, others could not unseat. The only car that can unsettle BMW number 1 sedan status these days seem to be Italian (Alpha Romeo - Giulia)

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I absolutely loved my '95 M3. It was a benchmark car for me. Don't even know why I sold it. It felt so connected, so balanced. Loved the gearbox, the sound, everything about that car. That said, the first drive in the 911 was a revelation. A whole new level of visceral driving experience for me. I literally have been kicking myself ever since for not making a less than responsible decision 10 years ago (or more for that matter) and buying one of these things on credit. The hype is real Oh, and haldex is just fine lol. Torsen works too! Imagine that..

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I do concede, that I didn't get any respect on the street while driving my E60 M5. People must have just thought it was a regular BMW. But that rarely ever happens when driving a Porsche. Porsche's are more special in this regard. Doesn't sound like a big deal, but in heavy traffic in a city, it's like you're always playing defense with low respect cars, where i think folks are afraid to try to bully a car that might appear to be expensive or fast.

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I differ in my opinion. Daily driving in city traffic yields my conclusions: 1) Everybody is out to kill me. 2) They bully the car because they hate it and drive a POS and live their miserable lives so they hate anything that doesn't match their low-life existence. 3) Other drivers hate anything that looks expensive and they figure you are just some entitled jerk, and have a lot of money, thus a perfect target to hit you and blame you for it. 4) Everybody is out to kill me. Especially Prius and Pickup truck drivers. 5) I'm not looking for respect, just leave me alone!

The 996 seems to be a stepping stone car for BMW owners. I've owned a few BMWs (never an M). They all were good cars but were just appliances. However, this forum seems to have more than the average number of BMW guys moving into a 911 (996). It's an interesting dynamic...I wonder why the move?

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Depending on what kind of BMW owner, it's an easy step into the P car world without completely breaking the bank. Sure we could have spent the extra on a 997, but there is a lot to appreciate about a 996 even in it's basic C2 form. In fact, I love how basic my C2 is. They perform, sporty, fun to drive. It's an easy logical step out of a BMW as far as bang for the buck goes.

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First: using the phrase "using internet parlance" on an Internet forum is redundant. Second: Creating a thread to b***h about these PITA items - and then failing to actually enumerate those items in the post - smacks of look-at-me-ism. As a lifelong sufferer, I can identify the condition. Third: You're here complaining about how common and low your TT is; it's the wrong forum, but you knew that. We ALL know your Turbro is (obviously) less odious than our tripe-and-oxygen-powered N/A 996's; you don't need to troll us to confirm it. Fourth: So, you don't like BMW's any more, and you're clearly not enchanted with your Turbro...so what cars have set the mark so high that your Turbro doesn't satisfy your Champagne Wishes and Caviar Dreams (TM)? Fifth: To me, "[it is] is a keeper, a good car, and I'm glad I bought it." seems incongruous with "Would I do it again? Not sure, probably not worth the effort." If you like the car enough to keep it forever as your Porsche specimen, how was it not worth the effort? Or, to juxtapose the question and answer: if you elect to put in less/different effort, what (presumably) better car would you end up with?"

OP, I think I overreacted. I realize now that the TT is probably less fun/exciting for you because it is burdened with such an overpowered, archaic idea. Turbros. In cars? Preprosterous! I feel bad for being rude in my previous comment. I'm willing to swap you straight across - assuming your TT passes my extensive PPI (1. does it start? 2. Are there any cops currently chasing me), we can do the swap. Even-stevens, I won't even charge you nothin'. Then you can enjoy what it's like to truly wind a machine out and find its limits, rather than resting in the cold, distant emptiness of Borg Warner*'s womb. Bless you, brother. * I have d**k all idea who makes turbrochargers for Porsche.

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Classic 5chn3ll!

Ok, here are a few things that make the 996 special... and some extra things too. 1. IMS failure is real... and amplified in the minds of every 996 and 997.1 owner 2. Intermix is not a fancy drink served in the Porsche lounge. 3. The M96 engines love to make tickin' sounds like time bombs 4. The favorite color of the Porsche interior designer is Graphite Grey 5. The M96 seems to be quickly affected by the use of crack 6. AOS is not a '70s rock band that loves to overuse fog machines 7. Porsche designed the electric rear hood and frunk locking mechanisms to help improve the towing industry 8. The Becker radio company's favorite song is the "Sound of Silence" 9. Silver horn crest sightings are as rare as Sasquatch and they're as valuable as the hope diamond 10. The engineer that created the Porsche convertible top system was enthused by the principle of "Glass half full, glass half empty"; therefore, he created the midpoint breaking mechanism. 11. eGas is not a competitor to "Gas-X" 12. One indicator that the Porsche 911 is a male, is the fact that it loves to take a leak in public.... And give off very impressive noises from the rear. 13. Two guys in a Porsche Cabriolet are no different than two guys in a pink Miata 14. The Porsche designer that came up with the special edition Miami Dolphins Nephrite and Orange colored 996 was forced to watch every game in the last 15 losing seasons 15. Porsche immobilizer technology not only keeps the thieves from driving off, but also the owners and Porsche too. 16. Porsche discourages having backup Keyfobs. They say it's because they want to stay in touch with their owners. 17. A "roller" is not a chainsmoker or gambler 18. KrazyK is rated most loved on Rennlist and has secretly come back and is masquerading as TonyTwoBags. 19. 5CHN3LL should have been a English Professor, radio relationship talkshow counselor (a.k.a Dr. Chanel Show) and/or synth player for DEVO 20. Kalash is a Russan that loves women, malt liquor, dumplings, going shirtless (most of the time.) and "livin' the life!" 21. Slakker is a mod-maniac that believes the '99 model 996 is the ONLY 996. 22. KC Attorney loves the NA 996 peeps better than the TT 996 peeps even though we all know what he drives. 23. CUDA911 never has enough room for all of his Porsche toys and never enough time to track them. 24. Gnat is the International Man of Mystery. Never seen in public and his cars are known to drive by themselves over the speed limit in public parks 25. Gonzo is a speed demon known to do 51 in a 40. Darn speed cameras! 26. Ahsai is the Porsche Gandhi (can't say anything bad about this one!) 27. Martin is a so-called mechanic that owned Forsche-Land (or something like that)... Couldn't stand it when a marine from Georgia would put him in his place. 28. Sneaky Pete is a man that tried to like Martin, but won't, ever since he "eye'd" his wife. 29. DT Miller is actually the grumpy ol' man from the movie "UP". 30. Jake Raby is a modern genius that knows how to correctly spell the word "DAWG"

Classic or not, it seems like a fair deal. He has a stupid wing... I have a stupid wing...they're practically the same car.

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One of my bandmates booked us a gig at a time when for us, a prime venue was any building devoid of the label "CAFETERIA." It was at a community rec center; but it was a dance; they wanted live music, so we opened with some covers of (what was then) contemporary music...nothing scandalous (Girlfriend In a Coma, Whip It, pretty much anything off any OMD album because you can play OMD songs without a sequencer after ANY amount of pretty much ANY substance). It was an original number ending in the lead vocalist gesticulating with a large, red papier-mache rocket at her crotch when I looked up and noticed that (a) all of the audience members were female, and (b) half of them were under the age of 12 and wearing Girl Scout uniforms. The set list changed abruptly once I realized we were "the band" for the local county's girl scout spaghetti dinner and mommy-daughter dance. There is pretty much no job a high-school band will not accept. We would have played romantic slow tunes outside the shower room at the local jail for $20 or a six-pack. I'm capable on the guitar, the bass, keys...but when I sing...it's like a mix of Fergie and Jesus.

Audidude, the Haldex system does indeed blow or sucketh immensely in comparison to the actual Quattro system. The Quattro transmission put Audi on the sports car map, dominated world rally, won countless races in production classes, and climbed a road covered in ice on steel wheels without tires just to prove it could. The Haldex system is a computer driven PoS designed so front wheel drive econoboxes could be sold as AWD cars by Audi capitalizing off the Quattro reputation. Take out one fuse or sensor and it's worthless. Heck even you pointed out it comes in Audis bottom tier cars. It was originally designed for the sporting behemoth the Audi TT. So yes it is junk. Next you'll be trying to tell me that climbing mountains using Toyotas electronic chicanery is better than my Jeep Rubicon with actual locking differentials was..... Don't follow a Jeep, you'll get stuck. And I'm happy to see the OP can now feel the full warmth of the 996 forum... And Audidud (I'm dropping the e until you earn it), your argument that RWD (c2 vs c4s) is always faster and then using the FWD based Haldex is awesome argument both stink. They are totally incompatible and both wrong.

I love this forum! What a great thread! Something for everyone.

Hit "post" too soon! What I wanted to add, is that you guys are a fun bunch. As long as you're not a real tool, the humor is overall good natured. And even the tools get treated pretty kindly here most of the time. Usually they don't understand what they're dealing with, and make fools of themselves. My favorite thread so far was the guy who made fun of the Boxster owner who offered to let his kid sit in the car. Douchbaggery at its finest, and the 996 community did not disappoint! OK, what were we talking about?!!!

I don't know if it's beyond being serious in this thread, but, to the OP: The car is special to me. I didn't buy it to be special to everyone on the planet. If it's not special to you then it's not special to you and you'll know what to do when it's time.

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Hey! I resent that!

I heard somewhere, sometime ago, that BMWs are street cars that people modify to drive on the track. Porsches are track cars modified to drive on the street. An over-simplication, but probably some truth. If you need to be convinced why your purchase is worth while post sale, it's a little ridiculous to have other people persuade you after you bought it. Even tattoos can be removed now.

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Agreed - I meant the new ones related to the m4 gts. The e36 m3 / e39 m5 range of cars are some of the best sports sedans & coupes out there. The 06-08 335tt is a special car as well.

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I typed up a nice answer towards the OP pretty much along these lines but then my internet connection died (halfway Africa here). So delighted to see how well the rest of forum team members responded! Oh well... BTW, what happened to our dear friend the turbo lover? Or was he banned?

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You have a FAKE stupid wing. So that's even WORSE!

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This used to be true (the Porsche part) - and even though the newer base-model cars are heading inexorably toward losing those track roots, there are still some great holdovers. One example: After you remove the vibration damper and wear sensor crap, changing brakes (with the proper tools) takes less than half an hour. Jacking the car and removing/replacing the wheels is far more time consuming than actually swapping the pads. With speed bleeders and an accomplice you can work around and who knows when to not crush your fingers, you can flush the system completely during the brake swap without adding any time to the project. Those are the kind of "motorsport heritage" benefits I appreciate.

We should hold off any further comment until Johnny Irish has a chance to weigh in.

He's still in the hole at Gitmo for check fraud. Oh, I mean...*ahem*...he's still "traveling overseas." You know, where there are no internets or cars.

I heard he enrolled in high school in the Southeast to find himself a horny young teacher.

No, you're thinking of a different Johnny Irish. The one I'm thinking of is more likely to spend his afternoons perusing Craigslist (the Reader's Digest large print edition) looking for his grail car: an Aztek with a spare tire AND an automatic transmission.

I think you're missing a few key points. 1) Every car is special to someone. It just seems the 911 is special to a larger group than most. It has been around forever so you have several generations of kids growing up with posters on their walls dreaming of driving one someday. Your Z3M just doesn't have the following for a variety of reasons. Some include that it isn't a very good car in any respect, the standard Z3 devalues the M version, and it doesn't have much in terms of heritage. 2) The Porsche brand, and 911 brand, evoke emotions (see comments about the posters above). Forget the stats/number/nurbergring times. 99.9% of people that want one or own one know they'll never need that extra second or two around a track they've never even seen in person. When you can tap into emotions, logic goes out the window. Porsche as a brand has done a very good job of establishing priorities: performance > luxury > price While I'd argue that BMW and Audi's brand priorities are more along the lines of: luxury > performance > price Other brands focus on safety, reliability, etc. But Porsche are unique in that they built cars for their customers to drive at the race track - as well as to/from the track. Its pretty remarkable. In the grand scheme of things, trying to convince you one way or another is futile. You either get it or you don't. Regardless, there are plenty of people that get it.

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Finally someone mentioned the E46 which some consider the "last of the real BMW's"... Window switch gear remains around the shifter, simple to work on and "old and nostalgic enough" to connect with BMW's heritage. I'm also a BMW fan and have owned one for years. However I also love Porsche (have 2) and well as a few English marques (Triumph, MINI, Lotus) even a TVR for quite awhile. What's important to note each one of these brands/models provide a window in time per say as well a different driving experience. Back to the E46 with a few tweaks based on an already sound chassis (for example I corner balanced by car as well as my prior E36 and it appears it's damn near equal on all for corners even taking into account the driver. On my particular car, Bilstiens, swaybars, BBK front and rear, etc on the ZHP factory offering (back when BMW actually offered a package for not too much more money on a standard car) and it handles incredibly while remaining civilized. Yes there a A LOT of clowns who don't do these things correctly and truly destroy a car. However done correctly one can have a great all around classic design. The E46 coupe (of which in ZHP form was only made for 1.5 years until the end of the line in 2005-6) has aged quite well. -C

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I've also experienced African internet..... the things I do to pay the bills.

I do wish I still had this one, 9 mpg, 6 weber 2 barrels, hot racing cams Another view. My 2 cents, I have owned 911's since I was 18 and I am 66 now. My first was a 68 911L, chocolate brown, 73 RSR, a couple of 911 SC's, a 993 Turbo, and now a 2003 X50 996TT. I guess the biggest thing is I can find no reason to get anything else. I have it right at 700 BHP and I have fun going to the grocery store. I always drive them very hard, everyday so I do not hide them away for special occasions. I have had only very minor issues as I keep them maintained. I have owned many BMW M's for my sales work putting over 200k on most. I have had this car since it was a couple years old and actually did a cost analysis and found (minus add on's) this car is one of the cheapest per mile that I have owned and it will fly and connects to the road like no other car that I have driven. I have comfortably driven cross country a few times. So "what is so special?" it is one helluva car for speed and road contact plus is every bit as comfortable as any M that I owned. I also have a 09 MINI John Coopers Work that is like a go cart with lights and a tag, but hands down the 996 X50 is the best car that I have ever owned. I am not a Porsche aficionado, but I am a Porsche enthusiast, especially the 996 TT.

"What is so Special About these Cars?" Eh, there's nothing special about any Porsche. It's exactly the same as a Prius. Or a Camry. Somebody mentioned an S2000 Honda, sheeesh. You should have bought a BMW if you wanted something special.

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What a beauty! It's educational reading stories from guys like you that have been involved for long enough to know the air cooled cars well, yet still offer kind words about the newer cars.

I have yet to meet a 911 that I did not love. The reality of it is that Porsche could not attain the torque and horse power with an air cooled engine without some drastic changes, hat is now achievable plus to get to the upper band of HP in the air cooled engine you had to ride right on the ragged edge of the engines limits because at high speeds the airflow across the engine was hard to maintain due to turbulence and low pressure in critical areas. I did a fairly long high speed run at Daytona in the silver car in the picture, testing the airflow. When I parked it the headers and engine were so hot they set fire to the grass under the car and had I not smelled it and moved it quickly it would have burned up. The air cooled engines were much louder and had rougher power curves. Yes, the water cooled cars took a bit of getting used to simply because the engine sounds had become imprinted in my brain as to shift points, etc., but I have yet to find any advantage that the air cooled models had over the water cooled. The air cooled engines were a marvel in producing the horse power that they did, but besides the nostalgia, give me the current technology any day. As I said I am not an aficionado, but I am a dyed in the wool Porsche enthusiast.

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This! Every Porsche I've driven has been a fantastic car filled with character and spirit. Different eras of the cars appeal to different people, thank goodness there are so many to choose from! I love the air-cooled cars, they hit a special spot in my soul. But that doesn't mean I look down my nose on any other 911. If I could, I'd own one of each.

Here, here, I would have kept everyone I ever had, but there are HOA restrictions in my neighborhood and was not quite economically feasible.

I in no way want it to sound as though I discount the air cooled models, as I said I believe they were a marvel of engine design.

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Of course not! Who would? I didn't read it that way at all.

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We clearly need to build a rennlist warehouse. For a small fee you'd get access to every model made .

I'd go for that.

Needs to be near the center of the country, but somewhere that has mountains and winding roads. Let's move it a little north so the summers aren't too hot and it isn't too crowded. Also need some snow to test low traction and awd systems. Let's see where could we put it? Montana!

Salt Lake City. Good airport, cheap commercial real estate & roads like this: You Tube (these guys are in the local car club)

A lawyer that I deal with came over from London and said that he had just bought a Ferrari 430, so I tossed him the keys to my car and said check this out. When he came back he said that he was going to sell the Ferrari (which he did) and bought a Porsche turbo and raves on it every time I speak to him. He said he never knew the big draw to Porsche until driving my car.

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SLC would be great. You have a good track close by too. Ok, let's start fund raising

I only need about 5 years to save up to buy an air-cooled car. Then another 10 to buy some commercial space.

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Yes please. In.

What's so special? It's a Porsche, man. It's really just that simple. As a kid I used to draw them; Why? I loved the huge whale-tail and flared fenders on the old 911's and I still do. Ever since then they've had a special place in my heart. Not to mention (aside from my own personal fondness of them) it's iconic - for multiple reasons I shouldn't even have to expand on. I love BMW's too - I had an e36 estoril blue M3 and I still have my 2004 e46 carbon black parked next to my 2001 911 C2. I also loved my 2000 b5 Audi S4. There's many things to like about many cars - this isn't just limited to "whats so special about ONE". They are all special for varying reasons. I absolutely love my bimmers - I even have a 4.8is X5 AND a 2016 BMW S1000rr bike. Quite possibly (still) the fastest production 1000cc bike on the planet. That being said, I also have an immense fondness for my 911. More then BMW? No. I like them all for what they are. But I'm also learning that Porsche has an extremely steadfast following, a more mature audience as well as owners group and it just begs for more attention and $$$ - why? That question can't simply be defined or reduced to a simple answer, unfortunately but a lot has to do with Porsche's mystique, prestige and value in the market place, which is an over all example of what they bring to the table.

I haven't bothered to look at this thread in a week; some of us have to work! I can see that school is still out and mom and dad haven't yet restricted internet access to the kids yet. Bravo for all of your posts, thank you very much (from the OP). I still own all of my cars, including my 996 TT, which is up on a lift and hasn't been driven in 3 or 4 weeks. My reason for that has nothing to do with this car, just that a few of my other ones are due for annual service visits and oil changes, and I only have so much time to drive cars. Aren't you jealous? Some of us actually have real work to do, so there is only so much time to spend driving cars. The rest of the time needs to be spent working, to pay for all of this stuff. Eat your heart out, youse guys with your monthly payments.

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Wow, so with bigger tyres and better brakes the C4S was only 0.8% quicker than the base Carrera 2 - around a normal track that would be so close to being a dead heat you'd struggle to seperate them! So no advantage to AWD on a dry track, as I would predict. Speaks volumes for the C2

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Wow, what an enormous ***

That was strange. Anyway, what an enormous assumption to make.

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LOL, quick reply as i'm trying to earn money to keep my 996 on the road..... Just saw this now - the Nurburgring times for the C4S and C2 PROVE MY POINT that 2WD is quicker than Awd in the dry - because EVEN WITH wider track, bigger tyres, and better brakes (a biggie on the Nordschleife), the C4S was ONLY 0.8% quicker - remove those advantages to level the playing field and a blind man could see the C2 would be quicker KAPOW !!!

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The popularity of the fwd delete speaks for itself

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Haha, trolly boy is back again! Great place to live, Idaho. Look what I found here, it is sooo exciting.... I wonder if the OP lives in Wallace? Would fit the description.... http://www.movoto.com/blog/opinions/idaho-facts/

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Where did I say RWD is always faster than AWD? I didn't. I said that in the dry there is no advantage of AWD, and the extra weight of AWD will give the RWD an edge. The only reason the C4S posted are very slightly (0.8%) quicker time around the Nurburgring was because it had bigger tyres, wider track, and better brakes. Nothing to do with it being AWD, in fact without those stated advantages, it would have been slower. Also I never said Haldex was the equal of a mechanical Torsen based drivetrain. I said they were both excellent. Your comment that Haldex is a "PoS"is typical of people have a black and white view of the world - if it's not the best, in their eyes, it's crap. Gradations of great don't exist in their small minds... So if you're going to argue against someone, don't misquote them in order to prove your point. Now, can I have my 'e' back?

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Like you I was away earning cash to support my obsession. Welcome back, and great thread you started I wish I didn't have real work to do so I could drive my toys more. I have no monthly payments on my cars - all bought for cash - toys should never be acquired with debt. Fortunately my three keepers (urq, ITR, 996) are like money in the bank. The 20V quattro has doubled in value since bought 4 years ago... the race car? That's an altogether different story...

"Eat your heart out, youse guys with your monthly payments." Wow, just wow.

Quotes source post: 14387969

Just post your dick-pic, man. Thing must be huge.

I haven't read the whole thread but as the owner of Porsches and BMW I can say this, my 1995 911 was a delight . The interior was what I would like to compare to my 2001 BMW 740il. The Porsche interior was completely intact save for a bit of bolster wear at 83K miles and the smell alone was incredible. The much newer BMW with the same miles had Many crumbling plastic pieces. These are two different animals but the Porsche was such a joy to be in and the BMW with things falling apart around me is hard to love.

What's weird: my cars are paid for, AND I have time to drive them. And I am comfortable with the size of my Johnson. It's the trifecta of successful mediocrity! OP, you should scribble notes down if you have time between your incredibly lucrative and busy career and not driving any of your cars.

Quotes source post: 14386748

I keep thinking about how cool this would be. I did some back of the envelope calculations. With an entry fee of $3k and $500/year annual dues multiplied out over 200 members, we could build a tidy little fleet along with a nice garage to store them in and money for maintenance and upkeep. We could get 8 cars (with an average cost of 50k) and still have a 200k left over for garage space. $500/year in dues would allow 12.5k annually for each car to cover maintenance, insurance and taxes for the car and for the garage. Average cost of 50k would allow for some pretty cool cars, for example: - 911 SC (30k) - 911 Carrera (40k) - 993 (40k) - 996 Turbo (40k) - 996 GT3 (60k) - 997 C4S (50k) - Boxster or Cayman (20k) - ? Or it could be a completely different mix. Early members get to vote and choose . The goal would be to get drivers, not garage queens and then keep them in great shape for members to use. We could offer credits back for members who can help with maintenance along with classes and other events to help those who want to learn more about the cars. Ok maybe I'm thinking about this too much... Does it seem like a cool idea to you guys?

Quotes source post: 14388933

it is far fetched but there's no reason why we can't put together the ideal 911 stable. - 911 SC (30k) YES, targa please as these are really sunny weather cruisers at their best - 911 Carrera (40k) - 993 (40k) street build, nice wheels & suspension - 996 Turbo (40k) - 996 GT3 (60k) mandatory track car - 997 C4S (50k) why not, winter beater - Boxster or Cayman (20k) Boxster roadster pleeeease, such a classic design - 964 light track work & street/canyon car.. with 1552 outlaw wheels laik dis: https://speeddistrict.com/sale/

The OP is a Serious Douche Bag. I haven't had a car payment in Years and Im not an obnoxious ***. Go to work young man and stop trolling .

This should help OP save time w/ future threads:

Oh great! Now that image is gonna be stuck in my head the rest of the day, as I focus on my TPS reports, so I can somehow scrimp together the $137.50 loan payments.

Quotes source post: 14388933

Must include: "you break it, you fix it" clause

Quotes source post: 14389492

I love that username MurphysLaw brought this up I think the cars would have to be well insured and the driver would pay for damages up to deductible or unusual wear and tear that's not covered.

what is a "youse"? You Tube

Simply Put, It's all Relative, For me, Nothing Drives, Handles (Coupe Wise) or Feels like it. I have own Many, Many awesome cars, but I always sell them, never sold any of my 911's - My M5 (2003) was one of the best cars period, but I always found myself grabbing the key of one the my 911. You can say what you want, do as you will, for me, it will only be Porsche, I love them, never let me down, ever! in 34+ years driving them.

Quotes source post: 14388933

Google exotic car fractional ownership and you'll see this is indeed a thing. You're talking a Porsche only version and a target mean price that's much more on the affordable end - perhaps that's new. Another common arrangement is to do points like a time share and have everyone provide a car as their buy-in so you can always have something in the garage. I'd be interested in one in Utah (since I live there) although not right away as I just received a new 911 and wouldn't want to drive anything else quite yet!

Quotes source post: 14387969

Yet... good conversation so...

Quotes source post: 14389632

That's how I feel about my 911 too, but as I've only had 9 weeks of ownership, it's very reassuring this honeymoon period will continue! Couple of things out of your post: 1 - was your M5 and E39? If so I agree entirely - such an amazing GT cross country driver, with one of the best engines ever built, and a chassis that totally belies its 1850kg weight. I'm selling mine to make room for the 911 (only so much shed space....). 2 - how many 911s do you have considering you've never sold one in 34+ years? And with regards to the OP, whose main beef was the buying process: when you are looking to buy a classic car, one of the more enjoyable bits is the search for that right one. Think yourself lucky you have so much choice in the US - here in NZ there is only ever a handful of examples to choose from, and if you want manual , a finger or two usually! To quote Wayne Carini (Chasing Classic Cars), the thrill is in the chase!!

I wouldn't call it special unless it saves my life or has been with me since day one. Since none of the above has not happened, yet, I would call it appreciation rather than special. Maybe in 10/15 years where there are so few of us 996 Forum members left that will make us SPECIAL instead Appreciation #1: $23 a month auto insurance full coverage in CA with 100k/300k $2k colision deductible on a 2002 Cab. I am sure there are others on here that have cheaper insurance. Appreciation #2: Handles well especially with 19" for relatively cheap. Appreciation #3:. Much much easier to wash and wax compare to the SUV and the mini van. Appreciation #4 - 100: See appreciation #1.

Quotes source post: 14389840

I don't like the idea of a car as buy-in, I think providing 3k in cash would be more easily done and also easier to manage for the 'club'. I also think this could be done as a non-profit, the focus is on spreading Porsche love, and could also include outreach to help others experience all the glory of the 911. Make-a-wish, other charities, get to know a 911 day, etc I can see how used driver-level 911s could make this more affordable than an exotic fractional. The entry price is lower, maintenance is lower and the cars are very robust and long lived. For usage, there would be an average of 2 weeks of usage available per member. We could use a calendar solution to reserve your time. Wintertime in Utah would make things complicated though... that reduces number of useful days considerably. I should probably create a new thread for this...

I think you're trying to quantify something that can't be quantified. A great example is my '68 Jaguar XKE, which has cost a fortune to restore. Mine is a coupe and wont fetch the silly money the OTS cars bring, but the cost of maintenance and parts etc is the same. So, why buy a car that performs worse than almost any decent modern car out there??.......personal choice due to history, legendary marque, favorite car when one was younger but couldn't afford to buy one then etc etc. The 996 is ino, THE best value Porsche of any designation, almost ever. My car looks almost as good as it did the day it came out of the showroom, and it's worth about 1/4 of the original price. Point is that this same car could easily pull almost $100k whe it was new becasue people felt it was worth it, for performance, marque significance, ststus etc etc. IMO, nothing has changed.

Quotes source post: 14390320

Vegas is close might be an interesting thread

Quotes source post: 14392223

Well, back in the early 2000's, any 911 SC or 3.2 Carrera could be had for $15,000-$20,000. So in 5-10 years, we could be saying the same thing about the 997 or 991

Quotes source post: 14389346

Nice Office Space reference ;-)

You don't fill out and send in the annual throttle position sensor reports that PCNA requests?

Can I just remark that this is a stupid thread and the OP checked out long ago? I know we love to beat a dead horse but c'mon......okay..I'm done. The REAL question is - what type of oil do you use?

Quotes source post: 14392424

....or tyres - this thread got off topic a while ago.

the real answer is : the owners, duh WTDnnwE.gif

Quotes source post: 14392424

No, man, he comes back every once in a while to say more stupid sh*t. Keep up.

Good news! Got a pic of Pee Pee Eye with OP and one of his coworkers...

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Poor dog, never be the same, needs those UBL getter metal teeth

Quotes source post: 14392235

I didn't feel too bad about hijacking this thread because of the OPs general behavior but its time to put this (maybe crazy) idea into its own thread. Please come on over and add to the discussion: https://rennlist.com/forums/general-...l#post14392910

Quotes source post: 14392248

So what's that in today's money.....$30 - $50k or more? So maybe the 996 will sell for $40k in a decade or so, assuming we can still get gas for them!

Quotes source post: 14392424

Anything else and you've pretty much been destroying your motor bits since day one. Fools.