Thoughts on a 2000 C2 PPI report....

Hi guys, I've wanted a 911 ever since I first drove one in high school...a 93 targa to be exact. Had a M3 and sold it to fund this 996. Anyways its a 2000 C2 with 47000 miles on it. Everything looks immaculate, but the PPI shows some issues. Also no IMS work has been done. The left side paint shows o3n the carfax as the only accident. Is this still a good buy at 23k? Thanks in advance for any help guys 212fead1-7dbf-477d-a9a1-1650d6d5f30d_zpswfhjxukm.jpg 3d7ed5b3-b9d7-4093-8b9a-922774f22c5e_zps24xpbufd.jpg

Price seems high by at least a few thousand but that depends on where you are. Nothing too scary in the PPI but you may want to have a body shop look it over.

Thanks a bunch for the reply brother....I'm in the SE USA. It's a rare car around me for sure.

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Tailpipes are hanging low. Motor mounts? Seems overpriced by $5K to $7K. Would hate to see anyone's first 911 experience be a disappointment in any way. Can find much better 996's for the mid-20's. Here is just one example. http://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/cto/5761754664.html

Not too bad of a car, but probably more like a $19,000 car, even with only 47k miles. Clearly it's not perfect, but few are at this age. Foam out of air vents is pretty normal. Missing emblem on wheel cap is a $20 fix. Coolant reservoir is a PITA to fix, but doesn't say it's broken. At this age, everything on the car could break at any time. Paintwork/accident is really what keeps it from being a $23,000 car. Frankly, that keeps it from being even a $19,000 car. If you like it, then I would keep it on my list, but don't get in a hurry to buy. Especially this time of the year - this is buyers' market time of the year for about another 4 months. Take your time. Get to know the market. At $23,000 asking, this car isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Thanks guys for the great replies.

None of those things are items that haven't already happened to some/most of the people here...and they're not inconsistent with a 16-year-old car. As an aside, whoever did the PPI appears to have some 996-specific knowledge; the foam blowing and coolant tank are both things that someone who started at a dealership three years ago might not even know to look for. IMS opinions are MORE common than a**holes - I belong to the "I'd rather have a car with the original bearing so I know what it really looks like when it gets retrofitted" camp; others feel differently. I have learned from the Interweb that mostly honest people will turn into lying bastards to get rid of a car they think might be failing. Wait, your recently-removed original IMSB was in pristine condition, but a month after dropping $5K in preventive maintenance was when you suddenly decided it was time to sell the 996 and "upgrade to a newer 911?!?" And you lost the original? *backs away slowly* Yeah, getting an unmolested car is better than having to wonder...

My problem is that I've already put about 50 miles on it test driving it.....and I've really taken a shine to it. The stock sound is intoxicating for sure. Again guys thanks for the responses, I can already tell I'm going to be spending a ton of time on here. 4a2e9810-47fc-4517-b0cb-17d50b77c3b2_zpsuuabmysf.jpg

Just 4 years ago, I paid $30K for a 996 that's a year older and had higher mileage... It's true that there are tons of 996's out there, but there's no law against buying the one you want.

Yeah I'm just nervous as hell about buying this old of a car, but ultimately life is too short not to be driving an awesome car imho, and this happens to be the most "awesome" I can afford at this time. To me it's worth it to perhaps overpay a little as long as I get into a proper 911. The private buyer price I got on this car was $20,500, so I assumed I'd be padding the dealerships pockets a bit. I just want to join this 996 club asap!

If it makes you feel ANY better, I have a '96 Corvette and a '99 911, and my wife's 2012 Murano has spent more time in the shop than either of the sports cars. Unless you're buying CPO - and you're not, not for a 16-year-old 996 - the dealer doesn't need to make more money than the private party seller...in fact, a dealership ought to be desperate to get a 16-year-old 996 off the lot. Start wringing your hands about the IMS things you're reading about on the Interweb...maybe just a little too loudly...and see if they can't drop the price another $500 or so.

Calm down and read more Rennlist ! Ask here for some recommendations to local Indies and buy a car from one of their good customers. Cheaply maintained 996 is an expensive mistake imho. Better to pay more up front for a diligently maintained car otherwise you'l simply pay later on deferred maintenance or worse !

10-4 guys, and I will def. be reading as much as I can.

There is a difference between an unmaintained car and a car that has not had a ton of PM performed on it. My car had been meticulously maintained, but it had not had the "Rennlist PM Overhaul" performed, likely because the previous owner was fortunate enough to stay off the Internet and just drive his car. Of all the things listed in the PPI, the "badly worn rotor" is the only thing that would worry me - and brakes are so incredibly subjective that one inspector's "20% and badly worn rotors" is another's "80% - good to race!"

Great info brother, thanks. I had the dealership double check the brakes this evening and they reported that they were not nearly as bad as the PPI detailed. I figure I could just replace them in a few thousand miles once I build some coin back up

Are there any maintenance records? I would be interested I the tranny leak is really the tranny or the RMS? Will you be doing the list yourself? If not, the major items could run $4-5k. You are paying a premium for low mileage but it's still a 16 yo car and most of the maintenance items will be from age, not mileage. I agree with the collective that anything over 19k for this car is a premium. Add the extra $4K in repairs to the 4K in premium and you are starting out 8k in the hole. If that's not a big deal to you then stick with your emotional impulse and buy it for goodness sake.

Thanks for the reply....and yes there are maintenance records. Not trying to impulse buy anything.....I've been looking for one for a year or two now.

Did the PPI check for things like key fobs present and working, age of tyres, AOS check? Looks like its a VW dealer rather than Porsche? If you are remotely handy then brakes are a simple fix, engine mounts too?

I think it's a little over priced at 23K. But it is low mileage and there is nothing in the PPI that raises any red flags. I'd also prefer buying a car with the original IMSB. But, I'd budget for the IMS solution (unless maybe if it has the dual row IMSB - apparently some MY2000's have this). Try to knock a couple of grand off the price. Good luck! And, yes the 996 is an awesome car!

I checked the tires...almost brand new. I took it to a Porsche specialist....but who knows how well they actually looked it over. I'm getting spooked as hell now. Seems Its a bad deal, and perhaps these cars are just too old for a non wrench like myself to own. I can always get a much newer m3....but wanted to try a pcar. Again, they are pretty rare in my area. Thank you for the reply by the way.

nothing unusual for a 17 year old car except the major paint work. Expect to put $5-8k into it in the first year to get caught up on servicing and fixing some of the noted items - bet you're due for a major service with plugs as well unless you have records it has been done recently. Looks like a $15-17k car if it drives well, no tranny noise and bores look clean. I assume you had it scoped?

I picked up a 99 about 3 weeks ago with a very similar PPI. Has a very slight oil leak from the valve cover and even some foam in the vents It has the original IMSB. The specialist pulled the oil filter and examined it. No sign of any metal or anything else in the filter. Oil was old, which was good, since fresh oil would not haven been able to show any signs of issues. It was from a local dealership (not Porsche though). Has 47K miles on it and I was able to get it for $16,500. I used the whole IMSB issue to drive the price down. I think they were originally asking 20.5K for it. I think if you work on the seller a bit, you can get them down a bit and make the decision to buy a lot easier. By the way, love the car so far.

One extreme to the other. I like it! Unless you need it right now, just slow down and take your time. Be willing to travel a ways to buy the right one. Look for a good maintenance history. Ive got a '99 with 85k miles on it that I will be selling for 19k soon. And it has the IMS, RMS, water pump, brakes, clutch, belt, motor mounts, and plugs all done within the last few years. The last wear item I needed to see about is the variocam pads before I put it up for sale. I'm not pitching mine (shut it Alpine! :P), but I think it is a good example of what to look for. I wouldn't even call it a bargain as I'll be asking a bit of a premium because of all of the maintenance.

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I'm a total newb, so if the PPI didn't include it then it wasn't done. Thanks for the detailed numbers, they help out for sure. Again, many thanks for the detailed numbers about your car listing...great context. The place who has the car has the new age "fixed pricing"...and I've tried the IMS line for sure on them. They seem firm today, and I hate seeing a future car of mine sit on a lot any longer than it has to while I play chicken with the shady dealer. Big congrats on your new 911, call me jealous on that deal you got

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Great advice for sure, and your right lots of emotion swinging going on right now. Thing is I need a car asap, and have already been trying the SE USA for some time now. If this was for a project I'd have no problem waiting a year or two. Yours sounds sweet!

The paint would be my greatest concern; don't buy the car without having it examined by a good body shop. As others have stated, I'd also be a bit wary of buying this without maintenance records. If you really want this car, a thorough PPI from a good independent Porsche shop is mandatory, including a thorough inspection of the cut-open oil filter to look for plastic or metal bits. I had mine do a compression check and leakdown test and would recommend those as well. All in all, it seems high priced for what it is. As with any major life decision,patience and persistence win the day. Remember they made a sh*t ton of these cars; personally I think you'd be better off keeping an eye on the classifieds for a better example and deal, and in the meantime reading this forum every day to better educate yourself. And good luck!

Thanks Bradstock. Guess I'm gonna walk away, crazy how if I never started this thread I'd be 100% buying a 911 tomorrow. The pain is real, not sure I want to do this process again, the $200 PPI alone makes it costly.

Why limit yourself to cars in the southeast US? $300 will buy you a one-way ticket to pretty much anywhere in the US. Go see the car in person and drive it home. Take a friend/family member with you and it will be an adventure you'll remember for the rest of your life. Plan your route home to include a stop at an auto museum or two. Of the 6 P-cars I have bought, only the Cayenne was a local purchase. 4 of them were fly-outs, drive home.

With these cars, mileage really is just a number, but lower miles is generally easier to resell. Just for some perspective, a very clean 911 with same color scheme and double the miles recently sold on BAT for $23k. Car was super clean and had lots of service history, but no IMS replacement. That said, I would personally cap current value of that car at around $18k, I just did a quick search on BAT to find the last three 996 NA cars that sold. Here's the latest offering: http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1999-porsche-996/ Here is the silver one I was talking about before: http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1999-porsche-911-c4/ And another 996 that sold in-between (higher miles, red, w/suspension mods and IMS done): http://bringatrailer.com/listing/2000-porsche-911-2/ If you really like that silver car and can get the price down to around $18-20k and feel good about it, do it. But, to me that's akin to paying the "gotta have it now" price, rather than the "man, I got a great deal" price. EDIT: I just re-read your original post and saw the comments about originally wanting a Targa. To me, that's probably more important than any of the other considerations. If that's what you really want, then I would wait and spend the money on exactly what you want. $23k should find you a similar Targa. Best of luck either way you go!

My two cents - the car is priced too high. If what you posted is the entire PPI report than one of two things is the case either this car has very few issues or the PPI was not very good / in depth. My guess is the latter, the PPI wasn't very good. When I took my car for a PPI I received a detailed three page report that covered every single system on the car, I received diagnostic history, they dropped the oil pan, etc. It cost $200 also buy they went over every inch of the car for two hours, drove it, etc. These PPIs really need to be done by an experienced Porsche professional and enthusiast. Anyway, plenty of 996s out there to choose from. I hope you have $5,000 sitting around after you purchase the car you want, you're going to need it.

Truly excellent stuff gents, and while its heart breaking to read, its the straight medicine I needed, and ask for.......so many thanks to all who are taking take to help. I also have my doubts about how good the PPI was done even though it was performed by a so called pcar expert. It's official now, I called the dealer and told him I'm walking from the car. Who's better to tell you whats what than a bunch of passionate 996 owners themselves. I kinda wish I never started down this road though, and never put 50 miles on a 996. The cars kinda sound like a ton of worry, with relative high maintenance costs....but something is definitely alluring about them. Oh well, you live and you learn. Sad day but I'll get over it.

Think of it this way. You don't find the right Porsche, the right one finds you. (Cue Kung Fu flute music.)

I don't know where you are in the Southeast, but here is the kind of car and price point I'd looking around for... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-...m=262412163707 Question one should be regarding the carfax report. Maybe seller will provide it upon request. Could be this car is generally very well maintained and that IMSB has been taken care of already? If shops or dealer are listed in carfax, call them up with the VIN and tell them you're thinking about buying it and ask what info they can provide about the car... You may get nothing, or you may get an avalanche of service history. You don't know if you don't ask! Then, check with seller if he will let you get a PPI done on the car that includes a good look at the motor oil and filter. A leakdown test will tell you a lot, too... FYI: You can go on the Porsche Club of America website and find a list of recommended indy shops all over the country and then let the seller who you'd like them to use... Then, assuming your budget is the $23k you were considering plopping down on your local 911... If PPI checks out, car is a decent runner and there is no metal present in the oil, buy it. Then it's time to think about spending another $5-6k on the IMSB/RMS/AOS/Clutch/water pump/plugs/t-stat and chain tensioner pads service. At that mileage, I'd expect to see some brown bits of plastic in the oil. If so, use that to get the price down a bit more. You'll want the tensioner pads done "while you're in there" as the saying around here goes. By then you'll be right at your $23k budget, but you'll have a sorted car and very solid peace of mind. FWIW, I bought mine for less and had IMSB and the full list above (and then some) done and have no regrets, even though the (dual row) IMSB came out of the car in absolutely perfect condition. The '99s have more robust dual row bearing, so if the clutch on that car was done recently and there are no leaks from the middle of the tranny/engine casing (indicative of rear main seal leak) you could simply opt to have the IMS Guardian installed (google it) and install the LN spin on filter (to eliminate oil bypass) and just monitor metal in your that way until you do need a clutch. I think that would cost you only around $500. A word of caution regarding these cars and clutch wear... When I bought mine (had 93k on odo) the clutch felt perfect. So much so that I briefly considered holding off on the major engine service. However, because there was no sign of tools having ever touched the transmission bolts and zero service history with the car, my mechanic and I were both pretty much convinced the original clutch was likely still in my car. Glad I elected to do the full engine out-service to address everything I listed above because when we got the clutch out it was down to scraping the rivets on the pressure plate side, but not yet to that point on the slightly fatter flywheel side. At least I saved myself the expense of adding a flywheel to that long list of parts to be proactively swapped. So, let's say you can negotiate that car down to $14 or $15k, that gives you up to $8 or $9k budget to do major preventive maintenance and transport the car home, or buy an airline ticket to fly in and drive home.

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Talk about a buyers guide...perfect sir! This is turning from a negative to a positive, I just have to find another one.

https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...e-911-c4s.html Try that, if you want something in the low-mid 20s range. Much more car for the money. Anything over 20k, I would be looking for a 2002+ car. Otherwise, there are lots of decent 99-01 coupes for around 18k (+/- 2). That red one from BaT was pretty fly. Slakker's car will be an awesome deal at 19k when he decides to sell it.

Thanks brother, please keep the suggestions coming guys if you have time. I may increase my budget to $28-30K if that can get me into a pcar that doesn't require me to go through any real maintenance prior to turning it into a low mileage daily driver. The idea of buying a car, and then turning around and replacing a bunch of parts has this newbie kinda leary. Maybe something like this? http://nashville.craigslist.org/cto/5783651160.html Also saw this nice older one with low miles in Nashville as well....seems high but already has some new parts on it http://nashville.craigslist.org/cto/5772003 849.html

Right on... If you don't wish to oversee a project like that yourself (very understandable) you're definitely looking at cars from sellers keying in on all of the right things... The process for me has been very fun and challenging. (Installing new seat leather in mine soon - almost done!) Of those two cars (I like 'em both) I think the newer 4S is the better overall value at their respective price points. $25k for that '99 seems a tad high for a coupe, but I bet that could be negotiated down somewhat. I might expect to see that price for a Cab in similar condition with all of that work done. So, you seem kind of locked in on a coupe or targa, with a manual... and silver? Are other colors or cabriolets of interest? I love car shopping for others.

It's a big world out there. I'd recommend finding a car with the options you'd like, and traveling to get it. I live in Los Angeles, and Porsches of all stripes are very common here. I flew to Nashville, TN to pick up my 2002 C2, then drove it back home.

^^+1 Now you are on the right track.

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Shop away sir I'm def. locked into a coupe or targa, and now that I've reset the search, manual and silver are my preferred trans & color. I did test drive another 911 recently with tiptronic and to my surprise I enjoyed it quite a bit. I imagine the novelty of it might wear off sooner than later leaving me wishing I had the 6 speed manual. I too thought the 25k sounded high, but also thought there might be room to bring it down with some negotiating. I'd like to focus my search on the major metro areas near me......Birmingham, Atlanta, Montgomery, Nashville. I'd rather not buy a car from the north that has seen snow, or salty roads if that makes sense.

The stock sound is NOT "intoxicating" Maybe you have the PSE?

Just went through all this and am happy with my choice. Two things someone mentioned the key fob, this one caught me. For a new Fob $165 and anther $155 to program at the dealer. Also not sure but I believe IMS cost a bit more to repair on a tiptronic car. Very Best of Luck!

Pretty sure it was stock...on the one this thread was about, or the one I said was intoxicating. I should have put that in context, for a stock car it was intoxicating. There was a certain rumble to it upon cranking up, and revving. It honestly reminded me exactly of the old stock 1993 911 I drove extensively when younger. Basically I've wanted that same feel in a car ever since I experienced it years ago...it was my first real taste of premium performance, as well as the incredibly unique pcar feel, and sound. That said, I've listened to youtube vids of 996s with upgraded exhaust, and find them to be simply amazing. My old m3 had some work done and sounded fantastic, but not like these 996s. This is basically the same sound the one I was driving had.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_njGreBBbA

Hello. Just one more a**hole with some opinions. Ten months ago I bought a low mileage (43k) 2000 996 Cab with tip for $23k. Had a fairly decent service history...one owner, serviced by the same Porsche dealer for 15 years. So I paid top dollar for the car because after driving over 10 other examples, this was the nices one I found (and I didn't want a cab but I made the compromise). Ten months later...very happy but still missing a coupe. Bang...a month ago the trans lets go. $5k to replace it plus another $1k in misc. work. The point...low miles and service history are nice but they don't garuntee you anything. As many here have said...a fifteen or sixteen year old car is an old car. I would put more importance on who owned a car, for how long, and who did their service, and can they show you the service history. Doesn't mean something can't break...but as least you are truly well informed and you, just reading the receipts, can get a good sense of what things will cost down the road. The price of the car you just walked away from was too high by at least $5000. I'm looking at a car on Craigslist in So. Cal...silver 02 coupe, 82k miles, aero kit, $18995 before you even start haggling. And here's a 99 silver coupe with 92k miles with an asking of $16500...and these are in southern California. The odds are that these are in as good a condition as your low mile example. But with these you have money left over to make repairs. Whoever recommended going to respected Porsche shops and looking for one of their customers cars made a good point. The price may be a little higher, but the knowns about the car should also be a better quality...and in the process you also find who you might want to work on the car when needed. Don't rush...enjoy the courtship...the owning will be much sweeter.

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First off, I'm terribly sorry to hear about your 2000 cab, and it takes a real man to share his negatives. So you're certainly not another a**hole with an opinion in my book Your story once again, and perhaps more than any other yet, makes me incredibly glad I decided to take my medicine, and come to the experts here on this forum. Some people might think it's ridiculous to walk away from a real world car that you like based solely on an internet forum thread, but I honestly believe the best chance I have at finding a proper 996 is by having you guys vet it for me to some degree. I still think the reward of owning a proper 996 outweighs the risks of owning one. I can't think of another car that can deliver what the 996 is delivering for around the same coin. At this point they're talking to me in my sleep.

You could buy my car for that price and get the experience of a cross country trip too!

That's no doubt a beautiful 911 sir! I bet the cab is fun as well in your neck of the woods. So what might be a fair price to offer, and some good questions besides the detailed maintenance history on this one in nashville, if anyone is inclined to weigh in on it? http://nashville.craigslist.org/cto/5783650160.html

Ok sorry to bug you guys, but I just got of the phone with a gentlemen with the 99 silver c2. I ask him the following questions....how many owners, and how long you've owned it? He said he is the second owner, and has owned it since 2001, putting roughly 25,000 miles on it himself. I ask him if he had detailed service, and maintince records? He said he did, and that it was serviced under warranty always at the porsche dealership, then afterwards at the exotic shop in town. I ask him about the possibility of PPI? He said no problem has absolutely nothing to hide I ask him when was all the new parts, and IMS work done? He said he just had all the work done, and has hardly driven the car since performing all the work. http://nashville.craigslist.org/cto/5772003 849.html Thoughts about it, and it's fair market value?

Does the radar detector mean anything to you? If not, offer 20k and tell him he can keep the radar system.

Two things immediately flag it as a no for me. First having the IMSB "just done" is a red flag at least to me. Nobody drops 2-4k for an IMSB and then dumps the car, without a reason. Second anybody that would drive a 996 on Bridgestone run flats doesn't know how to drive and doesn't know what a 996 should feel like. First 996 I bought had Bridgestone run flats on it and it rode like a truck and handled worse. Swapped on some PS2s and magically the suspension was fixed.

I hate cars with all sorts of electrical add ons. It looks like a nice car...probably very good in bed too...and the price is too high. I don't care about the miles. Why did he do all that work and now he is selling it? I'd rather pay $15000 and then do that kind of work myself. $4000 of radar dector is usless. Please excuse me but you are jumping around like a sailor who has been at sea for two years and finally gets to see a woman naked.

The guy told me why he was selling, and it makes sense but who knows. I don't intend to offer 25k for it. I thought I wanted one of these to have all the important components replaced or taken car of prior to buying it??? I would also use the fact I don't care about the radar in the price discussions. One minute I think I'm on the right track, then the next I think I'm on the wrong track.

Don't listen to Johnnie. You are doing fine. You are asking good questions and listening to the answers. The cool thing about this forum is you will get many different answers to the same question. You just have listen to your gut and go with the ones that resonate with you. It's a good point tharbin made about just having the IMSB done and selling it. If he did it for preventative maintenance then that's fine. He should have the old on and it should be in great shape. But if he found metal in the oil pan or filter and was swapping before it went totally out the. You will want to pass. Once the IMSB starts failing, the shaft itself gets out of tolerance and will eventually cause the replacement to fail as well. There is a pre qualification process for doing an IMSB retrofit. It would be good to know if the mechanic followed it prior to installation.

Opinions will vary. Personally I'm of the camp that I'd rather have the original IMSB and hopefully even couple-of-month-old oil when the PPI is done. Or... the IMSB was done a while ago but then if the car had clean oil, I wouldn't hesitate, I would walk, no run, for the exit. It seems nice to have it "all taken care of" and cheaper. The problem is that sometimes the IMSB was done, or even a just done oil service, to hide the already failing engine. 996s are great and dependable cars but you need to exercise tough love when buying one. Believe it or not there are a few people that would gladly dump there "about-to-be-a-20k-problem on someone else. Most of the 996s will run 100ks of miles without any major problems; your mission--find and buy one.

Yikes! $4,000 will pay for a lot of speeding tickets!

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Three things make me suspicious about this car: - IMSB recently done and he's not driving it but has it for sale - Run flat tires - who in his right mind would put run flats on a 996? - The car is obviously lowered (on the front anyhow) but there is no mention of any suspension upgrade or parts I like the C4S much better.

10-4 guys, gonna most likely cross the 99 c2 off the list....thanks I actually really like the seal gray C4S, and he's calling me back any time now to answer my questions, any specific things you guys can think of? Things Ive written down... 1. when was the required work done, including the ims/rms work? 2. when was the clutch, slave and master cylinder, and other new parts listed added to car? 3. how many owners, any accidents, bodywork, and does it have a clear carfax? 4. do you have detailed maintenance/service reports? THANKS guys

I just looked at the C4S. It looks like a good car and at that price, hard to beat. Anyway, my comment is your question about : required service ims/rms. The RMS is only required if it leaks, they do not all leak. The IMSB is NOT required work. It is a personal choice since if you need one, it is already to late to install one. Many, many 996s go through life on their original bearing. It is not a forgone conclusion that the original will fail nor is it a forgone conclusion that the replacement will not fail.

I'm sure there are lots of questions you should be asking, but a couple that come immediately to mind: - what has been the frequency of oil changes? - how much oil needs to be added between oil changes? - when was the IMSB replaced and what specific replacement part was used? - any oil leaks? - any CEL codes?

Just had a 45min. conversation with the gentlemen selling the c4s. He is a former Porsche service manager with years of time working on pcars. All recent work was done by the Porsche dealer and is under warranty. The car was somewhat neglected by its last owner, so this guy went ahead and preemptively replaced ims/rms, and then replaced all the other parts listed totaling over 13k. Has had no paintwork, but has a small unnoticeable mark on the rear bumper, and at some point in time he said the front bumper was replaced, but again my understanding is no body damage or paint work has ever been done. He has all his records, but prior to his ownership it's spotty. No leaks. He said no codes are on. The IMS and RMS replacement with LN Engineering bearing.

C4S is priced about $5k too high. Otherwise, it is a nice car.

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This was my exact mindset going into my 911 purchase. Well said.

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Sounds promising! Price isn't too out of line if all of this is true... It also sounds like this is a flipper car done by someone who really knows whats up with these... not a bad scenario IMHO. If there is a recent $13k receipt that comes with the car and warranty is transferrable, in my eyes that basically serves to substantially help re-establish a service history for the car. I'd ask if he kept the old IMSB. Looks like a good option.

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kalashnikov.....appreciate your thoughts, specifically on the price. Thanks for your opinion, it matters. He pointed out the importance of having the car brought back to new shape with the 13k, and the fact the work was still under warranty. I told him this is going to be my low mileage daily driver, and that's what he said this car has been set up for. Also says that brake pads and rotors are the only thing to expect to potentially replace outside of the unforeseen for at least 10-20k miles. I really like the look, and upgraded performance of the c4s as well the more I learn about them.

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So he spent $13k servicing the car and he's asking $30k? So if he is doing this out of a religious love of Porsches and not making a dime on it, he had to have bought the car for $17k...or less if he is making $1k...$2k...$3k. So maybe he bought the car for...$12k...$13k? And if he's a Porsche service guy he got a lot of stuff for cost...so is that $13k in repairs the retail or wholesale price? The problem with low mileage cars is that things die from inactivity. The bushings, the seals in the shocks, all the rubber stuff just dies...like the rubber and bearing in the cooling system. Also gaskets get dry and brittle and then when someone start driving the car a lot, they begin to break up and leak. When were the brakes last flushed? Water in the brake system begins to cause more problems there. That's why you are supposed to flush the fluid ever two years no matter the miles. And engine oil breaks down in engines that just sit and it begins to eat at the metal. Do not think that a low mileage car is somehow in better condition than a higher mileage car. Find a car that is already someone's daily driver and has stack of service history...years of service history. Then sit down and read each and every bill of service. And when it comes to the IMS bearing, who replaced it is maybe even more important than replacing it. This car has a bunch of recent bills but doesn't answer the question...what still needs to be done?

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Great stuff, and that's exactly the stuff he was telling me in our long conversation. Its hard not to get hung up on miles though given that's what most of us are programmed into thinking is the key indicator of how reliable a car is. He is asking $29,900, and he was more than honest with how much he acquired it for originally, and then the obvious 13k he put into it.

At this point things are sounding pretty good, and if you're really considering that car then I'd consider taking it to the next step and get the car to the Pcar dealer or a good indy, along with the seller... Have them change the oil and inspect for any metal or plastic bits in the seller. If there's some plastic, it could easily have been left over from the old chain tensioners, not a big deal... but if there's any metal shavings then you may want to take serious pause. If there's 3k miles on that oil (dating back to the work performed) and IF there was IMSB failure previously then you will more than likely see some metallic residue in oil/filter. Also, look on the bit 13k receipt to see if "ultrasonic" cleaning is a line item... That would indicate someone went to extra lengths to rid the engine of metallic debris. If you go to the P-car dealer who did the work, ask who did the IMSB swap and how the bearing looked when it came out... I will say this... For $30k, you are approaching 997 prices in my neck of the woods ( http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/ctd/5813830951.html ), but not with all of that "feel good preventative maintenance" already done for you. A good point for the mkII 996 S cars, I do think they will ultimately be much more collectible down the road. IMHO, the premium over narrow body cars is somewhat justifiable. Before you make offer, make it clear you are willing to travel to find the right car... But if the oil looks good, car drives as it should and PPI checks out otherwise... time to start considering making the guy an offer. Good luck! I hope all goes well for you!

jaetee...you're the man. Truly excellent words of advice. I've heard we've about reached the bottom on 996 prices, or that like you said, prices are going to go up in a few years. The more I learn about the C4S, the more I think that's what I really want. I like the idea of the upgrades suspension, and brakes, and I also like the different body style too. Again great, detailed stuff to look for. Exactly what I need to know!

A few more C4Ss I'm going to see in Atlanta tom. This one is more promising. 2004 C4S with 58k on it for $30k. Clean carfax with lots of service reports, but dealer says he has nothing further to add in that department. Also dealer says no IMS/RMS work done. http://atlanta.craigslist.org/wat/ctd/5779634363.html https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistor...AA29974S621017 Next one is a 2003 C4S with 85k on it for $25k. Haven't call yet about it, but the carfax show little service reports and lots of owners(5 of them). http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...40197572&Log=0 https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistor...&partner=ATD_W

Good hunting!

Any truth to the statement that Porsche doesn't recommend servicing the IMS/RMS on 03s, and 04 996s until 80-90k miles? Also was told that the later 03/04 models suffered less problems overall with the IMS than earlier models which kinda goes against what I've read on here. Anyone in the ATL wanna inspect a car with me tomorrow? If you got qualifications I'd be happy to pay for your time. Also I read on here Eurotechatlanta is GTG as far a PPIs go in the area....anyone confirm this or have a good PPI locale in the ATL. Thanks guys as usual

If you can wait another week, here's a good auction for you to enjoy. Well sorted cars on B.A.T. tend to bring a premium. Lots of fun cars to reminisce over or learn about. http://bringatrailer.com/listing/2002-porsche-911-c4s/

Sweet thanks for the link brother....wouldn't it be great if all these used 996s had those maintenance logs

This one's not an "S" but worthy of a look I think: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-for-sale.html

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Don't believe it. The highest failure rate is for the smaller diameter single row bearing, which was in the 911 (and Boxster) from approx. MY2000 to MY2005.

Your right brother, found an excellent article on this subject that stats... "According to information published about the Eisen IMS Class Action Lawsuit, the single row IMS bearing used in 2000 through 2005 model years is reported to have an 8% failure rate, versus less than 1% with the dual row IMS bearing." http://theimssolution.com/ims-101/ Thanks Jaetee, I've been watching that one. Just got back from Atl test driving the 04 C4S....put 65 miles on it, and had a PPI performed. The C4S's handling was downright awesome, and it destroys my old M3 in that category. The car drove fantastic, checked out well, but still seems a bit high at $29500

Yea, I don't think you'll find a well sorted lower mileage C4S for much lower than $30K. If your budget is less then look at the C2. Lower weight and a great performer, especially if you want to take it to the track.

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I'd say that's true...based on my my nationwide 2004 C4S price search....34-35k seems avg. for one with low to mid mileage. I appreciate your opinion on that. That said, this one has 59k on it, and the PPI made clear that it's due for it's 60k service which was quoted at $1200. Combine that with a some worn areas in the interior, a few small chips on the exterior, and a last minute break down of the sun roof AFTER the PPI...go figure. Not technically a break down but rather it started falling apart. Some kinda o ring was completely coming out, and perhaps other stuff was loose. I did notice that the car was noisy like it had a slight crack in a window while cruising on the interstate...so I'd have to repair that to. Knowing these types of cars that could run quite a bit. Can anybody weigh in on M car brakes vs Pcar brakes....that's the only area that is a glaring nod to BMW. Perhaps it's just the small sample size of three 911s I've driven, but I find them to be lacking a little bit.

Unless you need all wheel drive stay with the C2 and save yourself money, or at least have the money in your pocket for upgrades or repairs. The brake difference between your M car and the Porsches you test driven could be many things. The pads and how old or worn they are, same with the rotors. A C4S has more weight to stop than a straight C2. It has bigger brakes but that gets eaten up by the weight. Its good to see you starting to pass on cars as the hunger turns into discriminating taste. Enjoy the seach and the eventual buy will be much much sweeter.

Will you ever be taking it to the track or Autocross? Or is this strictly a daily driver? How important are feature and creative comforts to you vs raw driving experience?

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Thanks for the advice on the c4s vs c2 topic, and I'd be more than happy I'm sure with any proper 911 996 at this point. That said, the enhanced body style, and wide body really grew on me. Performance is number one for me, but aesthetics are still very important to me. The PPI revealed that the brakes were 90% good so I guess its just a different feel to pcar brakes that I have to get use to over time. I'm trying to enjoy the search, but honestly I'm ready for an asskicking 996 like all you guys already have I've never done track, or autocross, so this car is just for my low mileage daily driving. The raw driving experience is definitely most important to me.

The '99s are the best performers. Light and nimble and pull very hard in the upper RPMs. These are going to give you the closest thing to an old school Porsche feel. No traction control (except with the LSDs) and basic amenities. The C4S is definitely the sexiest looking and will be more comfortable and have more amenities for daily driving. If you ever start getting into really tracking a car, the RWD C2 are preferable. If you are shopping, I would at least test drive a 99 C2 before making your decision. And yes, people give me crap about being a '99 zealot. But you like what you like. Out of my multiple AMGs, '11 M3, and '09 911TT, the '99 C2 is my favorite that I've owned.

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This is fantastic information, and the exact reason why I'm spending so much time on this forum. I'm searching for 996 zealots All great points, and I've read before that the older C2s were the best track cars. Just love the way the C4S looks, and your right it appears to be one of the sexiest looking cars around. I spent all day yesterday looking at cars, saw 25+ Bentleys, 2 GT-Rs, Several M cars, tons of AMG, a few astons, a few Maseratis, etc....and the 996s still look every bit as exotic, and beautiful as those other cars do, all the while being at least a decade plus old. Kinda a timeless design if you ask me.

Did ya find one yet??? http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/cto/5837072979.html

Hey friend, thanks for keeping me in mind To answer the question, no the eagle hasn't landed in the nest yet, still on the hunt. Still on my mind everyday though unfortunately. That is truly a beautiful car, love the yellow calipers. Seems like a great price too. My only issue is, and it's a rather large one....the automatic.

I've gone through this recently, I did somethings right I missed on others. If you don't care about the looks of the Mark I (99-01) or Mark II (02+), the 99 model seems to be one to have. The earlier the better. Make sure the original engine is in it and look for the 4 spoke steering wheel. If you’re going to track regularly, I’d agree with Slacker. But know there are some mods you might want to do (e.g. oil pan). Also, there’s definitely a selection bias, but there seems a be a decent amount of horror stories on this board about tracking cars. If you’re looking occasionally tracking, some twisties, mostly putting around…just get the one that looks best to you. 2003+ audio (MOS) system appears to be a serious pain to upgrade – so if you’re thinking about stereo/nav upgrades, maybe stick with <=2002. If I had to do it over again, here would be my order of preference (I prefer the look of the Mark 2 – so the IMS Solution / Retrofit is must for me IMO): 1. $5 to $8K roller (car with blown motor) + $20K Flat 6 Innovations (Raby) engine: Addresses all the common issues with the M96 engine (and it’s basically a brand new engine). Plus you could look into 3.8 or 4.0 options. This will take several months though. 2. Clean car with LN IMS Solution or Retrofit done at an LN IMS Solution certified shop with documentation of Pre-qualification and swap done. Plus all the while you’re in there work done – RMS, clutch, flywheel, AOS, water pump, thermostat, spin-on filter, etc. Newer tires and brakes would be a plus – negotiate down if they need to be replaced. Retrofits have a service life of ~50K miles – so ask how many miles on the retrofit if pertinent. I don't know how realistic this is - best chance is buying off this website. 3. Clean car with good service history and original IMSB. I’d do a beefed up PPI that includes LN IMS Pre-Qualification, borescope, AOS measurements, compression tests – be prepared to pay extra for this PPI. Be prepared to pay $5 to $10K in preventative maintenance (i.e. the stuff mentioned in Option 2). Get a quote for all this stuff from your PPI and see how much the seller is willing to split with you. This is what I did - but didn't execute very well. Good luck! Also, high mileage on these cars shouldn't deter you as long as they've been taken care of - but will likely make resale more difficult.

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Mrjonger, that's as good of information as I could ask for...really detailed stuff, that took some time and effort to put down to text. Big THANKS Option 1 is realistically more than I'd want to undertake at this time in my life. Option 2 sounds awesome outside of the high mileage like you said....also finding the right purist that has taken care of the stuff you want in combo with the particulars you want on your 911 makes it a hard commodity to find. Here is the best I've found for option 2: http://nashville.craigslist.org/cto/5783650160.html Option 3 sounds great, just slightly less so than option 2 for me at this moment....doing all the work myself as a newb(not actually myself, but sourcing the right shop) could be both costly, and ultimately wrong. Here is the best I've found for option 3. I tried doing exactly what you said, negotiate the things I'd be doing right away that would add up to several thousand quickly. The dealer didn't seem to want to take anything off for some things that I believe he should have. It had flaws, but it was beautiful, drove tight, and passed a solid euro car shop PPI. Price just seemed high to me. http://atlanta.craigslist.org/wat/ctd/5817821347.html What car did you ultimately go with, and have you already put the coin into the replacement parts, and upgrades? Thanks again for your time.

I went with a 2002 C2 Cab with 19k miles – which is not necessarily a good thing. These cars are meant to be driven. I was looking for something with 50 – 75K miles, but got lured by the low miles and the recommendation of the Porsche specialist doing the PPI. As such, I spent way too much than I needed to, but oh well, live and learn. My estimates from the PPI to make the car a reliable daily was $6K – the seller and I split 50/50. But he was asking way too much, so I ended up overpaying anyway. Then the indy found the clutch and flywheel needed be done when he pulled the transmission to do the IMSB Solution. All in, I dropped $9K in service + $1.5K PPI. At the end of the day, it would have been cheaper for me to get a roller + Raby engine. Others may disagree, but for a PPI, I think you will always want to at least have the oil and filter checked for metal debris. Leak down would also be preferable. Below is the PPI for my car. It’s overkill, but I’m a noob at this stuff and I wanted a list of things to keep an eye on. With respect to reputable shops, I'd start with LN preferred/certified: http://imsretrofit.com/preferred-installers/ Engine Compression Test Results (OKAY): 1) 250 psi 2) 240 psi 3) 245 psi 4) 245 psi 5) 250 psi 6) 235 psi Engine Leak-Down Test Results (OKAY): 1) 5% 2) 7% 3) 7% 4) 10% 5) 7% 6) 5% Tires Information (GREAT): Left front tire is from 04th week of 2013(7/32” remaining) 35.50psi (Spec 36 psi) Right front tire is from 04th week of 2013 (7/32” remaining) 35.50 psi (Spec 36 psi) Left rear tire is from 44th week of 2012 (4/32” remaining) 43.50 psi (Spec 44 psi) Right rear tire is from 06th week of 2013 (4/32” remaining) 43.50 psi (Spec 44 psi) Brakes Information (GOOD) Brake pads information: Front brake pads have 7mm remaining (GOOD) Rear brake pads have 7mm remaining (GOOD) Brake rotors information: Left front brake rotor at 26.80mm (OKAY) Right front brake rotor at 26.80mm (OKAY) Left rear brake rotor at 23.40mm (OKAY) Right rear brake rotor at 23.30mm (OKAY) Front brake rotors minimum thickness is 26.00mm (NOTE) Rear brake rotors minimum thickness is 22.00mm Check Over Inspection (LIST #1): -Radiators need debris cleared out* -Coolant flush recommended* -Gearbox oil never serviced – recommended* -4% water contamination in brake fluid! - Flush overdue* -Battery seems fairly new – low on charge* -There appears to have been NO previous accidents -Various very slight paint scratches and patina (touch-ups) -All forward facing paint surfaces have slight patina (stone & sand damage) -Service appears to be due -Engine oil filter had very slight amount of metal debris-normal -Engine oil filter housing needs replacement* -Engine oil service due?* -Various imperfections on all wheels -Right cabriolet top roll-over reset trim cap missing* -Right A-Pillar outer windscreen seal faded -RF wheelhouse air duct broken? Check Over Inspection (LIST #2): -Porsche hood crest slightly bent -Clutch slightly stiff – due in near future# -Left A-Pillar leather scratched -All shocks at 75-85% -Ashtray removed – aftermarket insert installed -Aftermarket ashtray delete panel cracked -Third brake light seal cut – loose -Coolant reservoir recommended – discolored (leaking?)* -Coolant cap recommended (leaking? - age?)* -Steering wheel stitching loose – frayed -Battery discharged – charge recommended* -Alternator weak - charge battery before further diagnosis: 12.20V= Heavy Load – 13.20V= No Load -Front cowl drains dirty – leaves* -Various door dings and dents -Front shock bump stops disintegrated Check Over Inspection (LIST #3): -Air Oil Separator leaking oil (WAIT) -Air Oil Separator test result at 5.80” H20 (GREAT) -Gearbox feels good, all synchronizers okay with no excessive noise -Coolant water-pump original – recommended* -Coolant thermostat recommended* -Serpentine drive belt looks dry – recommended* -Bank #2 (Driver’s side) exhaust tail pipe tip rattles (Recall?) -Sheet-metal screws through passenger floorboard (Aftermarket electrical) -Satellite radio antenna mount in front trunk not desirable -Aftermarket stereo head unit – FYI -Wheel locks missing – replacement lug bolts not matching* -Slight oil seeping originating at gearbox – engine mating area (RMS? - IMS? - OTHER?)# -Lower edge of front bumper scraped -Slight scraping on engine crankcase and engine mount -Left license plate light broken* Check Over Inspection (LIST #4): -Right rear taillight lens & wiring harness previous damaged but has been repaired -A/C Air vents outlet temperature at 42.1�f (GREAT) -Front hood solenoid previously replaced (OKAY) -Bank #2 (Passenger side) Camshaft cover previously resealed (OKAY) -Fuel cap tether broken* -Interior cabin micro pollen filter fairly clean (NOTE) -Right cowl cover screw missing (We located it in the cowl drain) -Spare wheel loose (TIGHTENED) -Driver’s door has rattle noise when closing door -Gearbox has previously been removed (NOTE) -OBD-2 Monitors set= Ready for emissions test -IMS Bearing type? IMS Bearing UPDATE RECOMMENDED!# -Parking brake slightly out of adjustment but okay to leave alone -Both bumpers appear to have been repainted -Broken ignition coil bolt on #5 coil* -Coolant level was at low mark (We topped it off) DME (Digital Motronics Control Unit) Information: Operating hours counter: 835.7 (23.79 Ave-Mph = OKAY) Number of Ignitions in Range #1:“99” = GREAT Number of Ignitions in Range #2:“0” = GREAT Camshaft deviation numbersare GREAT: Bank #1: 0.55� Bank #2: 1.50� Control Unit Interrogation Information (GREAT): *DME: NO Faults *ABS: NO Faults *Instrument Cluster: NO Faults *HVAC: NO Faults *Seat Memory: NO Faults *Alarm System: 1 Fault – 54 Radio Receiver defective (Aftermarket Radio) *Air Bag: NO Faults *Convertible Top: NO Faults *Roll-Over Protection: NO Faults *HBA(Headlight Beam Adjustment): NO Faults Paint thickness readings (These look GOOD): Was an image with dozens of paint thickness reading notes

Holy Smokes!!!! Now that's a gold medal winning PPI right there! Gold medal price too! My PPI was on the other end of the spectrum. Cost was zero. Mechanic knew I was shopping for a 996 with it's original IMSB, which he was going to swap (along with all of the other goodies). The seller of the car I ended up buying was an hour away from me and we agreed to meet at my mechanic's shop which was a half-way spot. He had his wife follow him there in another car and they ended up running errands while the Mech and I test drove it, got under it, checked oil, suspension, steering, etc... When they got back to the shop we made a deal and he ended up riding home with his wife. I started shopping for parts. Back to shopping for the OP: You can see car fax in the auction listing and the dealer has a make offer option. Car has been bounced around after first owner, but it looks like it can be had for less than 1/2 of the 4S's previously mentioned: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-...m=262412163707 It's a '99 and has the early 4-spoke wheel, so it might be early build code and thus one of "THE" 996 cars to have (according to Jake Raby and Slakker)! Definitely worth consideration IMHO. Assuming it checks out... Buy it, put in a new clutch, brakes, IMS Guardian and LN spin-on filter adapter and you'll have less than $20k in your daily driver and can stash the other $10k in case something happens to the engine, or use it for mods and upgrades.

Mrjonger, that is one in depth car inspection! Fantastic. Who did the write up?

Mrjonger....thanks for such detailed, and informative replies. They are invaluable to me in my search. Talk about an amazing PPI. I can't imagine finding one that detailed, and thorough. I will use it as a guide in the future though, and try to get my PPI as close to it as I can. While you may have paid a little more than you thought, life is short......and your now officially sporting a awesome 996 Jaetee....great eye brother, that is certainly an appealing option. Gonna keep my eye on that one, and put it on my list. Really appreciate the extra pair of trained eyes on this hunt.

https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...uick-sale.html

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Callas Rennsport - I think they generally run 3 weeks backlog. I think the only reason he agreed to take this on was because he was interested in preserving a low mileage example. I don't think he really likes doing these inspections or routine maintenance - he was only too happy to hear that I'd be doing all the regular stuff. PS - One of the handful of LN Solution certified shops - the only one in CA.