2002 C4S - Initial diagnosis is IMS failure

Purchased in 2014 from original owner, at which time had IMS done preemptively at 41,xxx miles, as well as clutch, flywheel, etc. Oil changed every 4 months or 4000 miles, and nothing ever shown. Currently 52,xxx miles. Leaving local Porsche dealer on Wednesday night (had been testing Macan/Cayennes as replacements), car flat out dies (with ABS/PSM/Visit Workshop lights going crazy immediately prior), and had it towed back to dealer. Just spoke with their service - initial diagnosis is IMS failure, but can't be sure until they get it into a bay and pull it, at which time they will review options. As I was planning to trade it in or sell privately to move into an SUV, I am disinclined to spend a lot of time/$$$ on repair (if even an option). Any thoughts on easiest and most viable next steps welcome. Thank you. UPDATE on 10/19/2016: Contacted Town Motor re: IMS, to clarify the procedure. While reading the below, please note that I have, in writing, confirmation that a complete IMS retrofit was going to be done (and that I never would have purchased the car without it). Full reply is quoted below. Short version - IMS retrofit was NOT done, so mine is just your standard 996 catastrophic engine failure. Thanks to many members for the advice/encouragement, and especially Jake Raby, who I spoke with at length yesterday about options from here. HallEYA, What was quoted at the time of the PPI was the RMS/IMS seals. We do not do aftermarket bearing only replace with a factory bearing/shaft. Which requires tearing the motor completely down to the crank . after reviewing your invoice it shows only the replacement IMS /RMS seals and there is no parts or labor referring to a retrofit kit. Our RMS/IMS kit is what we refer to it as seals for Rear main and intermediate shaft seals. It seems you are under the impression we replaced the IMS bearing what we actually recommended and replaced was the rear main seal and the intermediate bearing cover seal and the 3 bolts that secure it to the engine.

So sorry to hear of your experience. I have no answer to your question but have one of my own: Do you know which IMS solution had been performed?

Thanks. Pretty gross feeling. IMS done by Town Motors of Englewood, NJ

how can a redone IMS go with only 10k miles. keep us posted. Something isn't right. which bearing was used.

Sorry for your loss! Is it me or are we starting to see an increase in IMS failures where the original IMS has been replaced as a precaution?

Will do. They're going to try and fast track the engine pull (because 911 is theoretically holding up the sale), so should know more within a week. I'll try to find paperwork tonight and advise on bearing.

But the reports never provide enough info...since there are many bearing choices it would be helpful to know what type of replacement bearing failed.

How helpful would it be to know which bearing failed? It's just one motor, with one bad bearing. Anecdotal at best. Could be a bad install, or something completely different. Sorry you had the failure HallEYA.

To OP, if it is the IMS, i am sure you know that the motor is toast and you will need a replacement used motor. There is no real coming back from having and IMS failure i think.

I do indeed. I posted about 10 minutes after learning, so I guess wasn't super clear. Popping another $7-10k into the car holds little appeal, so I am likely going to go the salvage/roller route, so will be sorting those logistics. If anyone has done that recently, I'm all ears. Thanks to all.

No sense speculating the cause until it's been thoroughly examined.

OP...do you know which brand of IMSB was used in the retrofit?

Have paperwork at home. Will send through when I find.

The dealer is unlikely to give much detail beyond Yep, the engine is full of metal. Back when the cars were still dealer-serviced and under warranty, they just pulled the engine, replaced it with a new one and sent the damaged one back to the factory in one piece. And nowadays the typical dealer doesn't see enough of them to know what to look for or how to troubleshoot it correctly. And the customer doesn't usually want to pay for that if the engine is done for anyway. Good luck, OP.

You mentioned the milage on the bearing (roughly 11k), but do you know when it was installed? It was replaced at 41k-ish, but how many miles were on it when you purchased the car? In other words, had he driven on it a decent amount before passing it on was it done to make it a more appealing sale? Also keep in mind that it is entirely possible that something else failed and took the bearing with it. A dead bearing is one of the first/easiest things seen when diagnosing a dead motor so it often gets the blame without the full story as few people want to spend the time/money to fully diagnose the failure on a motor that is essentially scrap. As far as your current predicament, if the motor is indeed dead, I wouldn't both having them remove the motor given what you've said. That's just pouring more money into it. You can ask them what they'll give you for it as it sits, but I doubt much (3-5k?) and I expect you can do better selling it as a roller yourself. I haven't seen many C4S rollers come up, so I'd guess somewhere in the 8-10k might be doable in a private party sale. So if I were in your shoes and based on what you've said (not planning to keep it and not wanting to spend money on it), I'd get it buttoned back up, tow it home, and put an add up on CL and in the for sale section here.

Thanks gnat. IMS/RMS was done as part of the sale at 41,xxx (seller had leverage with Town Motor, as he was buying a 2014 911 while concurrently selling his 2002 to me). Helpful post. Sounds like it's going to be roller time.

Found the paperwork. IMS repair was coded as "internal" re ricing and description (with only number coding of 225.40.18). Will chase that up today. Also spoke Body Motion who had some interesting potential solutions: talking with their rebuild guy Mike later this AM.

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There is always the LS Renegade conversion...

Please don't use the term "IMS Solution" so loosely. There's only one IMS Solution, and thats the name of a product... I'll guarantee that an "IMS Solution" didn't fail. Sure an IMS Bearing failure can be overcome... I am doing it today. It'll go back in the car tomorrow.

^not sure about that, what if the oil feed gets blocked

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Want to bet? I have a test engine with almost 4K miles on it without even having the oil feed line attached. I have a video of that engine turning 6K RPM (from under the engine) with the oil feed line disconnected, and oil dripping from the IMS Solution flange. Been there done that, simply to dispel the sewage being spread by those that grasp at straws to find anything wrong with the IMS Solution design. Between the 4,000 series aluminum bushing, and the DLC coated, heat treated IMS Solution flange, the unit needs very little oil to survive. As I have pushed this further and further, I have learned more and more. Also, what's going to "block the oil passage"? It's fed from the just filtered oil at the oil filter adaptor. Anything that blocks the oil feed also blocks all the oil to the rest of the engine! The IMS Solution needs less oil than the main or rod bearings within the engine. So, if this were to happen it would be collateral damage from something else failing, then the problem would not be the IMS Solution anyway, and any damage to it would be resultant from something else. The crankshaft will seize and all 6 rod bearings will fail, well before the IMS Solution dies due to oil starvation. Been there, done that, and wasted a 7,000 dollar engine to prove it. I have 1/4 of my life invested in this product development (literally) and if can be done, I have done it.

Very sorry to hear. Sounds a lot like my story, except mine lasted about 20K miles. My advice is move on quickly. Don't invest any more time or $$ on an engine that's now toast. Look for a replacement engine or cut your losses and move on. I went the replacement route with an upgraded crate engine (used, with about 10K kilometers) and couldn't be happier with it.

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Now that's how to put that one to rest! Well done!

Please note I also added the below to my OP. UPDATE on 10/19/2016: Contacted Town Motor re: IMS, to clarify the procedure. While reading the below, please note that I have, in writing, confirmation that a complete IMS retrofit was going to be done (and that I never would have purchased the car without it). Full reply is quoted below. Short version - IMS retrofit was NOT done, so mine is just your standard 996 catastrophic engine failure. Thanks to many members for the advice/encouragement, and especially Jake Raby, who I spoke with at length yesterday about options from here. Email from Town Motors of Englewood: HallEYA, What was quoted at the time of the PPI was the RMS/IMS seals. We do not do aftermarket bearing only replace with a factory bearing/shaft. Which requires tearing the motor completely down to the crank . after reviewing your invoice it shows only the replacement IMS /RMS seals and there is no parts or labor referring to a retrofit kit. Our RMS/IMS kit is what we refer to it as seals for Rear main and intermediate shaft seals. It seems you are under the impression we replaced the IMS bearing what we actually recommended and replaced was the rear main seal and the intermediate bearing cover seal and the 3 bolts that secure it to the engine.

Well that's horrible news. Unfortunately buyers can get confused with all the acronyms used and I often see and hear reference to IMS and folks automatically think "intermediate shaft bearing" when in fact the reference may be to the 'intermediate shaft seal". You have to be very clear in what you're asking to be done and then confirming what was actually done. Sounds like you have documentation that dealer was going to do IMSB replacement when in fact all they did was replace the seal. If they had replaced the bearing you would have seen an expensive part cost for the bearing on the invoice - labor for replacing the seal or replacing the bearing is about the same so the parts cost would have been an indication of what was done or in this case not done. Hope your conversations with Raby lead to a satisfactory resolution. Good luck.

Ouch that sucks on multiple fronts Jake will steer you right, but unless he's buying the roller for a customer his options will be the polar opposite of not wanting to put more money into it Good luck whichever way you decide to go from here. Really sorry you're having to go through it.

This happens all the time. An IMS Bearing flange SEAL is changed/ updated (often as a recall, or under warranty) and people believe that the IMS retrofit has been carried out. Sad situation. Had better communication occurred, this failure would have been avoided by utilizing some version of IMS Retrofit. Water under the bridge now... Pick up the pieces and make it better than it ever was. Thats all you can do.

Wow, that's terrible news, sorry to hear. Very confusing information from the dealer. I hope they do you right and give you a great deal on a new car. Goes to show that you can never trust a dealer. I similarly learned the hard way when I purchased my 2004 C4S from a local Porsche dealer and had them replace my IMS bearing with an "LN bearing" as a PM. Turns out the dealer used an RND roller bearing (also sold by LN, but not made by LN). Admittedly, my communication was not as clear as I should have been, but I had no idea at the time that LN sold other types of bearings. Although the dealer probably shaved a few bucks using the RND, at least they changed the bearing on mine. Had I delved deeper into these forums pre-purchase, I would have sent the car to a local LN certified installer to have them do the work. Oh well, live, learn, and pray for a healthy M96.

So basically what we have here is a 2002 Porsche C4S with only 52,000 miles that experienced catastrophic engine failure with an original OEM IMS bearing. OUCH! And, the OP had a written agreement to have the IMS retrofit installed as a part of the sale which wasn't done.... which meant... KABOOM!!! Double Dawg OUCH!!!! OP, I'm sorry to hear this man. Nothing worse than having a car die right before you're about to sell it. I wish you had better news, but as Jake says it's best to pick up the pieces and make it better than it ever was... or just sell it off as a roller and take your losses... or, if you have in writing that the dealership agreed to carry out an IMS retrofit replacement and didn't do it, you should meet with the dealership's owner to give him an opportunity to make it right or seek out legal options. Makes me wonder... Is the failure rate for the AWD C4S higher or about the same as RWD Carreras?

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What did the dealer do wrong here? They quoted him for a specific service and then performed the agreed upon service. Maybe they should have made sure he was absolutely clear on what he was getting, but I'd be willing to bet that the SA had no real clue himself and just selected the service that appeared to best match what was being asked for. It's well known that most Porsche (really any marque in my experience) dealers will not install non-OEM parts or deviate from factory service guidelines. It's widely known by those that have been around for awhile that you don't go to a dealer for a bearing swap. It's unfortunate that the OP knew enough to ask about it, but not enough to understand what he really wanted versus what he was getting. I think that is more the fault of the proverbial "us" though as there is so much paranoia and misinformation out there that it's nearly impossible for someone new to it all to get a clear understanding about it all in a reasonable amount of time.

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Agree with all that has been said here. The dealer knows what the weak point is in these cars and knows that it is the intermediate shaft bearing. This is their business and they are fully aware of the class action lawsuit settlement. Meets my expectations of dealers. I hope that this turns around for you.

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See the OP's post regarding a written agreement to have IMS retrofit replacement carried out by the dealership as part of the original sale: QUOTE: "re: IMS, to clarify the procedure. While reading the below, please note that I have, in writing, confirmation that a complete IMS retrofit was going to be done"

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Exactly -- the dealer is playing word games on their definition of "IMS retrofit replacement." In an ideal world, OP would have asked the dealer to precisely clarify that "IMS retrofit replacement" meant "LN Engineering Single Row Retrofit Bearing Kit" and that the IMS bearing would be replaced. The confusing thing is that the dealer used the words "retrofit replacement," but their definition meant only a seal replacement, not a bearing replacement. I don't fault the OP for misunderstanding what was being done. Who would think that the term "retrofit replacement" means simply replacing some $10 seals? The OP trusted an authorized dealer to address the known IMS issue which he specifically raised with them, but they just danced around it and sent him on his way. The lesson here is to be 100% clear in writing on what exactly is being replaced so everyone is on the same page, and not to rely on assumptions.

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WOW! OP driving around thinking his IMSB issue is addressed, when in fact it was not. UGH... Then IMSB fails after shopping for new Porsche at said dealer. That's a swift kick in the nuts courtesy of either very poor communication or cleaver after-the-fact semantics. What I see here is that the dealer missed out on an opportunity to make more service revenue on an IMSB swap back then, and likely lost a potential long term customer at the same time. IMHO, this falls directly on the Service Advisor. It's not like this wasn't a known issue in 2014. Sounds to me like he typed the wrong codes into the work order. Based on the reply from the dealer, if OP truly did ask for a new LN bearing, the dealer should have told him "Sorry, I can't do that, but we'll put in a new Porsche IMSB." OP's situation would be very different right now. That said, scrutiny of the invoice at pick up is key. There should have been an IMSB parts charge, and if that was missing it's up to the OP to catch that then. Can't do squat about it now. Still, I would be talking to the owner of that dealership. Especially if I had it in writing that LN bearing was requested. That implies IMSB swap! Not seal inspection. I bet the invoice was more than $5k, so easy for line items to get overlooked.... Even if the blame falls 50/50, it's the OP that is being left with 100% of the headache.

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We haven't seen what he has in writing and I find it more likely that the fog of history and newness (to the OP) of the subject at the time had him interpret what was written with a certain expectation (e.g. a misunderstanding). I'm no fan of dealers and I agree they should have known exactly what was being requested and either quoted him for the correct job or told him clearly that it's not something they do. There is always responsibility on the customer to understand A) what they are asking for and B) what they are getting though. As it stands now, I don't put blame on either side. As I said in my last post, I think it's more a fault of the 996 community as a whole that we continue to make a mess of this stuff. It's not something a new/prospective owner can sit down and figure out in an evening or two due to all the conflicting information that casts doubt on the opposite view. Now if he does indeed have something that very clearly and specifically says an actual retrofit will be performed with an aftermarket bearing, that's a different story altogether. It's just that from the information we have at hand right now a simple misunderstanding seems the more likely root cause.

Raby has read the full interaction w/dealer: pretty clear there was a gap in explicit instructions/expectations vs. actual remedy, re: the IMS(B) issue. However, primarily wanted to update OP to reflect that the failure was not post- IMSB retrofit, as I had initially, and mistakenly, described. (Certainly enough 996 boogeymen w/out adding another). This forum and others have plenty of other real-time examples of 996 engine failure, so me adding another log to the fire as a cautionary tale ultimately serves little purpose, other than my own catharsis. Porsche deserves all the discredit they've earned for this issue, but I also bought mine with eyes wide open (though never would have without the "full" IMSB fix, irony of ironies). Like myriad others before me, I think it likely that my gut-punch/anger/shock/disgust is no more or less than anyone else's. I think there is plenty of blame to go around, but re-litigating 2.5 yrs on serves no purpose. May as well yell at the clouds.

And so HallEYA, what is your next move on the C4S? replace the engine? roller? etc???

B3freak, Just sent this to Raby & Co, so here's where I am: Thanks guys. I am supposed to hear from my dealer this afternoon as to what they'd be willing to do re: credit of the broken 911 towards a Cayenne purchase, at which time I will decide on my next steps. I am all over the place, working through the car version of textbook stages of grief (shock, denial, anger, bargaining, guilt, depression, acceptance).

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Again, best of luck. I know it's not an easy thing to deal with, but you seem to be taking it pretty well and dealing with it logically rather than emotionally. That is an accomplishment in itself to be proud of

Harsh toke, OP.

Thanks very much. The grief stages a little hyperbole: actually been pretty easy - costs are sunk, engine is nuked, no one (realistically) to blame. From here it's a pretty simple cost/benefit analysis. I have no attachment to car other than it was fun to drive. Lots of those.

Man, try not to beat yourself up. I know you feel gutted, but remember, it's better to tear down a building and rebuild it from the ground up to make it stronger. We live and... and we learn from our mistakes and hopefully, not repeat them. Personally, I think this crosses the line of "Buyer Beware" and more like "The Devil's in the Details". I've been down this road before too with my Volvo and fortunately, went to the service manager and things were made right. They didn't try to place blame on me for not understanding part numbers, brand terminologies, and such. They took care of it. And that's one reason why I stick with Volvos for my daily drivers. They are great cars and my local dealership has a great reputation. Anyway, I hope you find a solution and not let this lose your faith in the 996. We all understand the risks associated with these cars and know what we need to do to make them last a long time. Heck, Jake Raby and Flat6 is next door to me and so I don't have an excuse. But I'm saving up my pennies (so to speak) and plan to install the "IMS solution" if I'm fortunate enough to hang on the car long term. I hope I don't eat my words by waiting.

You made a very smart move by consulting with Jake. He will give you very direct/accurate advice. Worked with him when he installed my IMS Solution. Great Experience!

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It troubles me that the '996 community' is slathered with this mess. The 996 community had no hand in the development, design, assembly, sales, service, diagnosis, or remediation of the mess. We are not at fault for anything, and as a new owner from 11 months ago, I went in with eyes wide open, and pretty full accounting of the weak points of the IMSB. Surely I have learned more since purchase, but I was well aware of the failure modes, and the testing prior to purchase. I took it upon MYSELF to take out the filter, remove the pan, inspect the entire engine for signs of any damage. I agree that it didn't take a night or two, it took several nights and plenty of questions. But - the info is there for all to see. I would put this squarely on the dealer as they didn't fulfill the new owners desires, whether they were able to or not. The dealer could and likely should have stood face to face with the buyer and tell them 'sir, we do NOT replace, alter the IMS bearing...'. But, knowing that might cost a sale, they took the shadow method of obscuring the service performed with some kind of mishigoss internal service code which I consider duplicitous. But - that's me, and maybe I'm too critical when buying a car from a car dealer.

This is a classic example of trusting the source, only because they are the source. This is a clear lack of communication/ miscommunication that lacked any clarity for the owner of the vehicle. Many independents have more direct experience with real- world issues with these cars than dealers ever did, as they have been working with the cars longer today. I refer people to dealers for three things: -SRS/ POSIP system issues -PSM Issues -Convertible top problems. Thats it.

"This is a clear lack of communication/ miscommunication that lacked any clarity for the owner of the vehicle." Perhaps there was even obfuscation passed off as "miscommunication"...herein lies the rub.

A bit misleading I would say they lead you to believe the ims was done , this is a well known term and by changing the acronym to intermediate seal is out of order and false advertising in my opinion they are going around selling cars saying " yes it's has all the necessary bits ims Rms so you have no worries there" gambling on the fact that most cars are ok anyway then when one goes it's " well actually if you read the small print ims means we did next to f all instead of replacing the bearing. I'd sit outside the dealership every weekend telling every customer how **** they are until they buy you a new engine, don't let them offer a repair just enough cash to by a good used motor !

When I bought my 2002 C4S, it also had an invoice from the previous owner through a reputable independent for "IMS repair" and clutch work When I tore it down to do the clutch again (the previous service only replaced the clutch and didn't address the flywheel), I noticed that all that was replaced during the previous "IMS repair" was the seal and flange and a new RMS, I installed the LN IMS bearing to be safe, the original bearing was fine though.

Update: Got an acceptable roller price on the 911 ($8,000), and a nice proposed adjustment on the Cayenne purchase, so made the problem go away in 1 transaction. Thanks to all for words of advice/encouragement. P.S. Not that it matters now, but found old paperwork from previous owner: Town Motor KNEW there was an IMS/RMS issue, as it was leaking at 32,000 miles (while presumably still under warranty), and they replaced the rear main seal and the intermediate flange seal in February of 2012, while also removing and re-installing transmission, clutch, and flywheel. It is maddening that they had 2 chances to retrofit an obvious problem, and passed. But also a cautionary tale to others that one needs to be EXPLICIT when discussing IMS. I clearly wasn't, and won't make the mistake again.

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Not that it really matters but my own car has a stack of receipts showing that it was a chronic leaker since day one. It had the RMS and IMS seals replaced several times over the years as that was the procedure for leaks until the previous owner was buying it (from the same dealership that sold it twice before including new) and while it was on their lot before he picked it up it leaked again. This time when they looked at it, they got direction from the factory to check the bore of the IMS, they measure it and found it was out of round by .07mm. Factory had them put in a new engine this time. Engine was running fine at the time of replacement, just leaking again. If it had the bearing replaced it would still have been a problem since that wasn't the actual issue but over time probably would have caused more of an issue or failure. At time of replacement engine had 58k on it, fully documented, original bearing, just leaks due to out of round shaft/bore. Glad it's working out for you more or less to your satisfaction in the end.