RND ENGINES - Direct replacement engine exchange program - Company Introduction

RND Engines LLC offers a direct replacement engine exchange program specific to Porsche model years 1997-2008 M96/97 Engines, covering the popular Boxster, Carrera, and Cayman models. The mission of RND Engines is to supply the most updated, reliable, and absolute highest quality M96/97 exchange engines at a fair price. RND Engines are built for the car owner passionate about their vehicle, and an owner that wants to keep their vehicle operating at the highest standards. With no corners cut or details overlooked, RND engines simply offer a high-quality alternative and ultimate peace of mind. Fast Delivery, Honest Core Evaluation, Fair Pricing: One to one exchange by original specific engine designation Fast and fair core evaluation 1-5 business days delivery nationwide 1 year / 12k miles warranty Professionally rebuilt and upgraded engines: Nickies� Cylinder Sleeves by LN Engineering Intermediate Shaft bearing upgraded with IMS Retrofit Rebuilt using high-quality OEM and genuine replacement parts PCA Club Racing legal (except for 2.5l engine) Additional replaced parts include: All Internal Gaskets and Seals Camshaft and Camshaft Sprocket Bolts Camshaft Position Sensor Connecting Rod Bolts Crankcase Bolts Cylinder Head Bolts Engine Oil Cooler Engine Oil Drain Plug Hydraulic Valve Lifters Knock Sensor Main Bearings Oil Filler Pipe Oil Filter Cover Cap Oil Pressure Switch Oil Separator Piston Rings Reference Mark Sensor Rod Bearings Sensors Solenoids Spark Plugs Temperature Sensor Thermostat (Low-Temp version) Timing Chain, Rails, and Tensioners Valve Cover Bolts Water Pump Wrist Pin Clips For more information visit rndengines.com , email , or call [phone removed]

Looks interesting. I like that you disclose the parts list. A few questions though: - Hydraulic lifters. Are they included even for MkII variocam+ intake lifters? Genuine ones are $$$ - Any new parts in the heads such as valve guides, stem seals, etc? - Do you use a new genuine IMS tensioner blade 99610516555? - Any ballpark prices for MkII 3.6L engine with a good core? We already know that Jake's engines are $15-20k and rebuilt engines from other rebuilders are $9-12k. I just wonder what your price range is.

It's nice to have even more options.

Yup and with all the LN goodies and 1yr/12k miles warranty mentioned, it does appear to be a high quality rebuild.

Why not give prices and options ?

Could it be a new stealth partnership between Jake with Martin? Perhaps a way for Jake to sell engines at a less that stratospheric price?

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Nope.. Its a way to work with the best OEM supplier of components out there, and combat the less- than- quality mass producers out there. I told you guys about this weeks ago when Martin popped up trying to take the world over with engine sales. RND Engines is a partnership between me and Charles Navarro (Raby Navarro Development). These engines are not built by Flat 6 Innovations, these are private label built for SSF Auto Parts (and distributed ONLY by them) using OEM components as a stock replacement engine. These engines share LN Nickies Cylinders and IMS Retrofit components; but, are otherwise bone stock internally to include stock bore sizes and stock pistons that are treated to allow for the proper compatibility with Nickies cylinders and altered rings. Again, these engines are neither sold, or produced by Flat 6 Innovations. None of the same employees are involved and the production facility isn't even located on the same property. I simply developed the program for SSF and have assisted them with ensuring the program was well rounded and complete. This partnership brings the best in OEM components (sourced from Germany by SSF) with the best cylinders and IMS Retrofit available (all engines see a dual row IMSB, either a classic dual row, or Single Row Pro) into one on the shelf offering that can be bought and installed by any shop or dealer the same day. BUT, don't ask me any more about it, as I am the developer and SSF is the seller and supporter of the product. Don't get these engines confused with my Flat 6 Innovations engines, as they are opposite breeds. My engines have a one year wait time, are never offered in stock displacements and do not use OEM components and come standard with my IMS Solution rather than IMS Retrofit. The RND engines are basically a polar opposite, and primary share the same cylinder technology, but is able to fill an immediate demand and offer a superb, long- living, reliable engine. RND Engines are not available in larger than stock displacements. We are very proud to have the largest wholesaler of Porsche specific components in North America to be our partner in this engine program. Dozens of factory replacement engines are in stock at warehouses across the USA, with all years and engine designations from 1997-2008 covered for M96 and M97 with the next offerings being Cayenne and 9a1 in the near future. I built the very first RND engine personally and developed the entire program from scratch along with Charles and the crew from RND and SSF. Someone out there will end up buying that engine, which was for a 3.4 Cayman S. (Don't worry, I kept the production number and M code memorized!) There's nothing like this in existence elsewhere in the industry, a built right, exchange based, replacement engine with a very fair core charge system.

Thanks for the explanation I was just messing with you I saw another post with a link to the company info Never really thought you would partner with Martin

Maybe this will make the folks that are so worried about the engines feel better because there will be a solution if the engine goes south. Once the cost is known there will be many comments I'm sure. The more options the better and if the cost isn't to much this sounds great to me.

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Please understand that SSF is a distributor of components to Porsche shops all over North America. They are not set up for direct sales to anyone other than companies. Because of this pricing will vary from shop to shop and region to region. The idea behind this program is for shops to source and install engines, and we have worked with SSF to build a list of preferred installers for the engines. Things are being handled in this manner so the engines can be properly installed by shops with the proper knowledge, tools and equipment to complete all the criteria thats been set forth by RND and SSF. The best engine can and will be killed by a poor installation effort. See more at www.rndengines.com

So does it mean any shop can get the engine and install it or only the preferred installers can get the engine?

I am very happy with this new option for 996s requiring an engine rebuild. Jake's involvement, even on a limited level, gives the project an important leg up. This is no longer about "engine failure." The 996 (as with past 911s) has proved to be a car worth keeping, driving, and rebuilding when the time and miles indicate. The days of dumping 996 rollers is swiftly coming to an end.

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Any shop can source the engine that has an account with SSF. You can also buy one through Flat 6, (who will source it from SSF as Flat 6 is a Preferred Installer) BUT we will only sell an engine IF we can install it.

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Thanks for the clarification, Jake.

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The only question now is the price point. My guess (hope) is $10-12k + core

OP, I just saw your ad this morning in the current copy of Panorama magazine, so interesting to see the post here too! OK, so lets say the core is useless (like when my motor blew). Since this is an exchange program, how does that work? As asked by others above, can we get a price (or at least an approximate price range) for the motor excluding a core price offset? Thanks!

Hello...is this thing on? Can you hear me now? The silence on approximate pricing range is deafening!

This thread will be confusing to some as RND is setup for b2b yet it is advertised to the consumers here. With the resellers all going to have different price points and the fact that no sponsor here has actively stepped up to announce they will be reselling these(engine alone without install), someone will have to locate and get some kind of pricing idea outside of these forums I'm guessing. Only then can one determine if it's worth it to them to get one that still doesn't address all the modes of failure, regardless of displacement, or if they'd rather spend a bit more for a "corrected" engine from Raby. Not to mention we all know how Jake will stand behind his engines regardless of time/miles and we already know(at least from him) that none of his engines have had any failure(street engines at least). It's unclear if the distributor/reseller will have the same kind of service to protect their rep or not, should anything go wrong. Keep in mind, there are no variables when getting a Raby motor. OTOH, there are more variables introduced here that can cause issues. Obviously the price point will dictate for some whether that risk is worth it.

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Two points... 1) It's something to ask about, and it's another option if something happens to an engine and the shop doesn't have time to build a motor or go through it. Not the same, but it's almost what they do to carbs on small engines now. Rather than paying a tech to clean things up, which may take a few hours, they just put a new one in. So here, rather than paying a local shop to go through the engine and make it stock again, they can pick up the phone and have one all ready to go, which could save some money in the end - especially if it's going back to stock anyway. 2a) I said stock in my comments above, and I'm really not sure why I'd bother Jake to replace a bone stock engine with another bone stock engine. I'd more than likely be more expensive, thus a waste of my money, and in a way a waste of his shops time. With these engines you can get something dependable that should be ready to go, and get back on the road. In fact with this program, if it's priced right, I'm not sure why a shop (again to repeat what I said above) would take the time to dig into an engine if it's going back to stock. Again, assuming the prices are right it makes sense. 2b) If I did want to build a fun track engine I'd keep it local or, assuming at that point my garage is built, I'd do it myself. Nothing aginst Jake, I just feel that my local shops can do a good job, and it'd be a fun/expensive project if I decided to take the time to do it, not to mention a fun learning experence. I'm sure he does good work, and no offense at all to him, but I just wouldn't be looking to him for anything I'd need at this point.

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It's wholesale. A bar in BFE Wisconson sells a Bud Light for $1 and $.50 on happy hour. A bar here in Minneapolis sells the same beer for $4.50 and $3 for happy hour. At a sports game the SAME beer sells for $8. Same product, depends on the venue and location. In our case here with these engines it would depend on their overhead, shop rate, and markup, among other things.

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You're overlooking one of the variables which is the shop's experience, ethics, customer service, technical know how. You don't want to be the guy that has to have a new engine because the shop misdiagnosed your motor when it was really just an AOS for example. This program lets a wide variety of shops/resellers sell, install, support the engine. However there is no certification or competency test or ethical test on who can sell it. So basically the engine is one thing but now you may have to deal with other variables as well.

Chiamac: Thanks. Understand the wholesale deal. Guess if/when I need an engine I will just call around and see what is available and at what costs. Just thought it would be nice to have a feel for costs before needed. Maybe just being paranoid.

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So why wouldn't I be able to trust a local shop?

Time will tell what the pros and cons are of the exchange program. SSF is headed up by a very smart and dedicated group of people who love Porsches like the rest of us do. The support after the sale has been a big deal, and full installation, first start and break in/ first drive instructions have been written to accompany these engines. A timeline that governs service from day one through the first 120K miles of the engine's life has also been included. The installation process is very clear, and concise and a list of other recommended service items is included that should be considered when the engine is installed. SSF is a big player in the Porsche parts world, they will only do something the right way; which is the only reason why we teamed up with them to make this program a reality. While they are big, they have the same ethics as a smaller company and the original founder of the company's son is in charge of the RND program. This program has been years in the making and has been done with an open checkbook. There will always be installation variables, which is why any engine that I sell will only be installed by Flat 6 Innovations. There's more RND engines in stock right now than we produce here at Flat 6 Innovations in a 3 year time period :-) That said, I am developing training sessions that are specific to these engines so shops can take advantage of learning exactly what should be done from the source. I have expanded my classes dramatically for 2015 and you'll learn more about that soon enough as well. You can, and thats the idea behind the program. Its what makes the whole program work. In the future I am sure a retailer will start selling these engines, its bound to happen.

The cost will be whatever it turns out to be, customer by customer. What is great about this is the fact that it is a new addition and a well platformed source of replacement motors. This creates more choices and competition and that impacts on prices across the board. This also give Indies and DIY a consistent source to go to. We have Porsche, Jake, used engine swaps (private party and companies like LA Dismantler), Vertex, and now RND. The long term value of the 996 can only continue to grow because the quantity and quality of the engine choices continues to grow.

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Well I'd trust them anyway to rebuild it, but this just gives them another option.

I think with Jake and Charles behind the program and the quality parts used, most people will have no questions about the quality. The most frequent failures we see for 3.6 seems to be cylinder scoring, timing chain failure, and IMSB failure, which are all nicely addressed by the LN nickies, new timing chains, and IMSB retrofit. For 3.4 of course we have cracked heads. I'm not sure if and how that is addressed but I don't think anyone has come up with a preventive fix for that yet so I think any rebuilt engine will have that risk. I think the only question (for me) at least is the price range. I don't expect RND to disclose the exact price as they are not selling to retail but knowing a price range of the engine itself would be nice. $10k+? or $16k+? That will make a big difference. Of course labor is different at different shops. Also clarification on how it works with people who don't have a good core to turn in will help.

For my two cents worth...if/when I need another engine I can afford a Jake engine, but that would be overkill for me. I love all the corrective actions, stronger/better parts, experience, knowledge and talent he puts in. Larger displacement would be fun but stock makes me smile enough. I do not track nor AX my car and have no plans to do so. While I understand process control and the value of that, waiting a year for a rebuilt/improved engine would drive me nutz! I agree with Ahsai this appears to be a good program, nice product with a far reaching positive impact on our cars. Nice Job to All Involved!

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I was in no way saying you can't. If you've used or found a trusted shop that does good work, that's great. But not all will be in a position to come across a good shop. I can see some guys settling on any shop when their motor fails due to knee jerk reaction/desperation of just getting it fixed and back on the road again without doing their due diligence to pick a good shop. Not to sound negative but some of these said shops could recommend a new reman motor without proper diagnosis, botch the installation in some way, etc.. I'm just saying the motor is only half the equation here with this model.

beer @ a ball game is almost the same as **** water for 3 times the price....

I guess I'm an optimist and Im 73 years old. My car has 22000 miles on it. Its had Jakes upgrades, not a rebuild but new IMSB etc. I don't think the car will ever see a hundred thousand mies while I'm alive. If it does have the unfortunate luck to blow up or need a rebuild while I'm still driving it I will either ship it to Jake or to to Tony in Los Angeles and have it fixed. I like knowing that it won't take a year, a year in my case is a long time, not the same as when you are forty. I really like the Porsche and its great to know that I'll probably be able afford to drive it as long as I want.

ALSO, in an article in TOTAL911, one writer reported it is rumored that PORSCHE is going to begin production of our engines in the future. we'll see...

Very nice. Can I get mine with the Solution retrofit instead of a bearing please? A flux capacitor too. I'd like to travel at warp.

Sorry , but no. Flux capacitors are only offered in the GT 9 edition , and you still need a warp passport which is another $100,000 option. Alan

Ok. I'll get the 996tt instead. Budgetary cutbacks.

Lots of good vibes from messages and emails about this today. The RND engine is a great mix of components and processes to make a stock displacement engine live a longer life. When I stated that I'd only sell an engine if I could install it, well thats a little bit too firm. There's 3-4 shops across the country that I'd trust to install the engine my way and follow the directions verbatim. These people have attended my training courses and have proven themselves over the years. Literally out of thousands of people and shops its only 3-4 nationwide, but that still opens up more avenues. For those that want performance and reliability the Flat 6 engine is the hot ticket; for those who want stock performance with reliability then the RND program is an immediate fix for their problems. The guys at SSF are really pumped up about all of this and the responses from the forum posts. We love working with them too!

I'm going to add an angle on the pricing frustration. Virtually every other product in America (except commodities that change to frequently) has an MSRP from a manufacturer including cars and parts. While the retailer can charge whatever they want, those who are protective of pricing (Apple, Sony, etc) set a MAP (minimum advertised price). That's why you'll see an iPad at full retail but bundled with a case and protective film thrown in. It's a way to add value without lowering price. You will also see an ad for "60' TV from a major manufacturer, $600". By not listing the brand they can drive interest. RND could do an MSRP with a MAP if they're that protective. Anyway, glad they're doing it, thrilled Jake is involved, but; not throwing out an MSRP is frustrating.

Pelican has both 3.4 and 3.6 listed now for just shy of $23000 with a $9700 (or so) core. Not too shabby for off the shelf with the nickies and updated parts if you ask me. And way better than a 3 year wait on for a Flat 6 rebuild.

Rennlist requires a seller (this includes RND) to list a price when advertising a product. So list a price.

$23,000,,,,,$23,000!!!!!! Are you joking? For a reman stocker? That would make me run, not walk to a TT instead.

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I would have to side with KK on this one if that is in fact the case, also considering that is without labor. KK, any luck on a 997 TT?

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/..._pg3.htm#item8 so cheap I'll take two please! The core charge is only $13,800!

LOL

$23,610.00 - $13,800.00 for your core leaves a balance of roughly $10,000.00...Sounds reasonable to me. After shipping and installation (I suppose it has to be installed by an authorized installer to activate warranty) you'd probably be looking at $14,000.00 or so...Doesn't seem too bad... (What is a Core Charge and why is it added to my order? A Core Charge applies to an item that is rebuilt or remanufactured. An acronym for "Cash On Return," the charge is credited to your credit card upon the successful return and receipt of a good, rebuildable core unit. Core charges typically apply to starters, steering racks, alternators, etc. )

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That is a tough core to swallow not knowing if your engine is a qualified core. Your 14k becomes 27k if not plus shipping of the core.

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One part of the program that I developed was the core exchange portion. Dealing with cores like this was new to me; because, my Flat 6 Engine Program never deals with them- we build the customer's existing engine. We also do not reuse most factory components, and they are thrown away, so our necessity for cores is hardly any; limited to blocks, cranks, and crank carriers. That said, I do know how I see people get royally screwed by core charges and I know the complaints that I constantly heard from people who had bought exchange engines. I also know whats fair when dealing with cores, and I know how important they are to the RND program. The RND program cannot function without cores. This mass production program is not like others, where a bunch of engines are taken apart and all the parts mixed up, then pulled out of the mix to build an engine. With the RND program an engine is assigned a process number, it is disassembled and is then evaluated by the same assembler who will be reassembling it. Several sheets are used to grade the core and these will follow the engine as it is processed. These sheets are entered into a data base and any component thats questionable is then further reviewed by the Program Manager. If the component is deemed unserviceable, then a photo is taken of that component and added to the data base. The entire engine is then ultrasonically cleaned and further inspected. If the remainder of the components meet the criteria they are placed onto a large cart, each numbered with the process number. The block and heads are then numbered and the block goes to LN Engineering to be fitted with LN Nickies cylinders. After a few weeks the block returns from being processed and then it meets all of the new OE components supplied by SSF Auto Parts along with the cylinder heads that have also been completely rebuilt. All of these items are then finally ultrasonically cleaned, and prepared by the prep specialist. They are placed onto an assembly cart and rolled into the assembly area where they will be placed next to an engine stand. The prep specialist bolts the block half onto an engine stand and then the assembler will build the engines one at a time. The assembler has his work checked by quality control at 4 critical stages of assembly by a second pair of eyes and hands. Engines are processed in batches, and 8 engines make one batch. After 1/2 batch of engines have been assembled and finally checked by quality control, those 4 engines are then placed into their crates and 4 more engines (the remainder of the batch) is fitted to the engine stands and assembled, and crated. Once the engines are fixed to the crate, the Program Manager finally inspects them once again and includes all the support materials, to include a USB key filled with information, like user manuals and etc. This includes instructions for the shop installing the engine and also the vehicle owner. Engines are then shipped in batches to the SSF warehouses across the country. Now, about core charges: It is possible to have a core pre- qualified!! Contact the sales team for more information. With a program like RND cores are the ONLY thing that makes it work. Last year RND bought every core on the market to start this massive program. Of those anything that was questionable was tossed out. None of the cores that we sourced that had cracked heads, had those heads repaired, (they were entered into inventory for a rainy day, when cores are not available and cracks must be repaired) and were fitted with other heads from the massive core bank that the program has built up. The same with blocks, and other components. The engine is a premium unit, so any core that is not premium can't be used. When a core engine is returned the RND disassembly and prep department is given 10 days from receipt to disassemble, inspect and turn the reports into SSF concerning the condition of this core. This is a very fast turn around time, as dealers will often hold someone's money for 6 months while the core is shipped back to Germany for evaluation. With the core disassembled and photo documented, each core evaluation sheet will be supplied with the photos of the component that was deemed "bad'. SSF has a core menu sheet that breaks these components down based on their realistic cost of replacement and that amount of money is then held from the core deposit. This is different than the factory, as today you get money back, or you don't. Doing things this way means that unless someone has a massive catastrophic failure, they will get some money back. The majority of people have gotten most or all of their money back. SSF is not a money hungry company; they are very fair and balanced, and they don't operate on a shoestring budget. So if someone lost an IMS Bearing they'd usually owe for a replacement IMS assembly as well as a couple of oil scavenge pumps. These are usually what an IMSB failure will take out. If someone had a 10K core charge, they'd only lose what the costs of those 2 scavenge pumps and the IMS assembly. The rest would be returned. Again, the components that had failed will be documented with photos and entered into the data base for that particular engine, and held forever with a cross reference to that engines M# serial code. To me, nothing gets more fair and balanced than this way of doing business. Cores are essential for RND to work; because each engine is built from it's original base components, and because, without cores, engines cannot be produced. Again, cores can be submitted for pre- qualification before an engine purchase. The dynamics behind this get pretty detailed pretty quick. If someone decides not to move forward with the engine purchase they simply pay for the core processing fee and they can have their disassembled engine back. Those figures are not something that I know, or deal with. Again, the program was developed with all the common issues relating to cores and etc as a reality. Everyone knows that for this program to be successful that it has top operate in a very forward manner with core charges assessed fairly and agreed to up front. The buyer will agree to all the details of the engine at the time the order is placed; before SSF collects a dollar. Direct all your questions to the contact page at www.rndengines.com or to the toll free number. Please don't send them to me, my part with RND has been completed for quite some time. Don't base your feelings toward the expense of these engines only from the Pelican listing that was referenced. Call your local shop and have them inquire to get you a price for your specific engine. This program is designed to work through shops who will provide installation of the engine, remove your core and ship it back to SSF. It will always work best if the process is handled in this manner. This is a solid program for a stock displacement engine replacement. Remember, the most expensive Porsche engine you can buy, is the one that you pay the least amount for.

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dporto, it's $23.6k+ $13.8k, not minus. Go to pelican and add a reman alternator to the cart and tell me what you see about the core charge

Yowza! So, you have to come up with $37,400 up front, and then keep your fingers crossed as to how much of the core charge you will get credited back? Sorry, I just don't see any sanity in going this route.

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That's because there is no sanity in going this route when you can drive one home for $15k. My 911 will be put out in my pasture with my other appreciating project cars, if/when it ever implodes. I may even pull the frunk lid off and plant daisies in there. Other landscaping recommendations from knowledgeable RLer's welcomed.

Nevermind, someone above posted before me.

Again, prices for engines and cores will vary by shop. The first price I had seen posted was here in the thread. This isn't for everyone, and all involved have known that since the beginning. I see guys invest 20-25K into a car that has a street value of 15K (or even less than 10K if its a Boxster) all the time. The vast majority of my 1 year backlog at Flat 6 is filled with these consumers; just like it was when guys were spending 10-15K for an aircooled engine for their 912 or 914 that was worth 3-7K. Now those cars are worth something and the engines are even more expensive to build than an M96. Vehicles have value in different ways, to different people. If someone only looks at the KBB value, thats one group, and they usually don't love the car. The people who love the car, and understand the difference between cost and value will benefit from this program. Some people sell the cars as a roller in a broken state... Those are excellent opportunities for a new owner to enthusiastically purchase and fit with an RND or Flat 6 engine. Ask Sneaky pete about this avenue, he has just experienced it first hand. Oh and BTW- Turbos are not immune to engine issues and guess what? A 996TT engine thats built will cost as much as the car is worth, too. I know, because we build those too.

What I seem to be reading is that if you have a good core the RND engine will still cost around 23000 from Pelican, is this correct. If it is and you have a good core why not just get a RABY engine for around 20000 since its less money and a better engine. I must be wrong about something.

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I confirmed today with SSF that the 23k price is incorrect. They will be stating prices in an upcoming post. I have not been able to find the engines on Pelican, can someone post the link? The most expensive RND engine is several thousand dollars more than the cheapest Flat 6 Innovations engine. The two have no comparison other than the same cylinder plating process. They are built for differing purposes entirely, and should never be compared.

I see the glass is half full...and getting fuller. We are not talking about Bug Eyed Sprite trackter motors...these engines are sculpture...they sing like a tenor...but machines break or wear out. Even if the engine cost you $20k...when you put it in the car, what else could you have bought that will equal the package? Here are people trying to address a problem and solve a need. As a result you have more choices than before. I'm thrilled.

People on this forum are just trying to get an idea about what the range of costs are. Obviously if these engines are 23000 even if you have a good core there won't be many beating down the door to get one. I along with others think that releasing any information about these engines should include an accurate cost breakdown, surely it can't be 5000 dollars different between dealers. I guess it will be known shortly but until then rumors are spreading and that isn't good for the sellers or buyers.

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Jake, the link was posted in post #42.

These engines are definitely a hair under $20k depending on which engine you're looking at. The core charges range from $7k to $10k. -Jason

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So if I am correct these engines will cost a hair under 20000 dollars if you have a good core. If you have a bad core could cost up to 10000 dollars more. If this is correct why would anyone choose one of these engines over a RABY engine as prices would be very close. Maybe a hair is defined as 5000 dollars which might change the dynamics.

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That is correct. The advantage is, they're in stock today. -Jason

If the intermediate shaft is damaged, the price reduction of the core will be the cost of a new shaft or the cost of a new one? This question goes for all the other parts that are not reusable too. If a used part pricing is used, what is the price list for that?

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I agree with you 100%. I have a roller project I love and will be rebuilding. This news comes on time as I have been looking for the "right" engine for over 5 mos. I will be interested to contact RND as soon as possible.

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That's an advantage that's hard to put a dollar sign on, but in some cases it could be worth a lot.

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Are any of these shops in Los Angeles, Ca.? Or the West Coast?

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Most every Porsche shop in the country has an SSF account. This is because they stock the widest number of Porsche part numbers. I am building a 930 engine right now and every part that wasn't ours or LN's I was able to get genuine from SSF. They had more parts in stock for that engine than Porsche did, and the same goes for the M96 engines, too. Thats according to the engine. Let's remember that there's 4 different IMS part numbers and what the core inventory has in stock would dictate if a used or new price were given. The core menu is available for each engine; but since there's 17 different M#s of engines I don't see all of them being posted. I can almost guarantee that anyone who loses an IMS from an 02-05 engine with a single row bearing will be getting the new IMS shaft core charge, because those shafts all fail when the bearings fail, and there are none to be found. The core charge is a real concern for everyone. This is because cores are required to build the engines and there have been times when the program had to buy a whole core engine just to nab one part from it. Without cores the engines can't be built, so those interested in an engine should purchase one electively before theirs fails, so the core is known good. I have been giving BIG incentives to guys from the Flat 6 side that would electively reconstruct their engine, because the failures kill us. Through these incentives I have filled 2/3 of my schedule with engines that have not failed, unlike last year, where we only built two engines electively. The failures are great to learn from, but its hell on the schedule and from a core stand point. Also, as we have moved further and further into the 9a1 engine here at Flat 6, and as those engines continue to fail at a good pace now, we will accept less and less M96/ M97 work. Its the natural transition that 5 years of 9a1 R&D and engine building have lead to. Flat 6 stays at the tip of the spear and that means engine evolution is required. I remember when having an M96 engine in the shop was an odd thing, because every stand was filed with aircooled engines. Today its opposite. Because we don't offer an engine on the Flat 6 side for 20,000. Also, because our current backlog is 13 months, and there's no possibility of expediting that. Also, the 23K number is inaccurate, like I posted before and this was confirmed by SSF today in an email to me from the Program Manager. I am sure they will be attacking this tomorrow. This whole program is new for SSF, and new in the wholesale parts business period. No other company has ever taken something like this on before, producing engines going heads up with a manufacturer. It's aggressive, and I like aggressive.

There's been a lot of interesting info in this thread, but why is RND not chiming in and telling us more? I got the impression (apparently false) that there was going to be a good cost-effective engine replacement alternative to us.

Makes these look cheap. http://www.vertexauto.com/showitem.a...1&name=Porsche

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They don't work weekends...

"dporto, it's $23.6k+ $13.8k, not minus. Go to pelican and add a reman alternator to the cart and tell me what you see about the core charge" Ah...yeah, now I get it, you lay out roughly $37,400.00 and then you wait around to maybe get $13,000.00 back... As much as I love my 996 I think I'll take my $37,400.00 and buy a different car...or, the LS conversion looks downright cheap! ** Now that the 996 is a modern classic, who see's Porsche starting to sell "improved" M96 engines for less than RND sometime soon?

If it is $23.6K +$13.8K then you would be better off selling your "roller" and buying another 996. You seldom see an immaculate 996 sell for as much as $44K. I doubt that 996's with Flat Six engines sell for that much very often (of course cars with Flat Six engines probably don't sell very often).

I'd be interested as well, any Canadian Indy's that can do the install. Also on the core charge, I have a running engine don't fancy to idea to pay full price and then wait to get back the money for my engine.

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I think this is going to be slim for most of the 996 crowd as our disposable incomes probably don't come close to the 991 crowd. Also I know some 996 owners are more **** with PM than others(cough cough KK) but I think KK would even have a hard time "electively" getting their motor done. This is not only unrealistic for most but unjustifiable unless you are racing your car on a full time basis, in which case you have the wrong car to begin with. IIRC, didn't your motors start around 20k before?

Its not about disposable income with most people I deal with. They appreciate the 996 for what it is and they see value in it. They know that you can't buy a thats as good as a 996, for what it costs to properly reconstruct the engine. We are working with 991s and 2013 and newer cars all the time these days and have been for a few years. I don't favor the cars at all, they are too big and not nearly what I value in a Porsche. Thats just me. There's currently 28 people who have electively committed to a reconstruction. Keep in mind that we don't have any advertisements for engines and have not in the past 5 years. Those people sought us out from word of mouth. Or unless you want to keep this car forever, until the wheels fall off. Thats what the person I deal with wants. Some drive the cars 30K miles per year and they see the value in being proactive. As the RND program grows the same group will buy these engines as they are less costly and can be installed the same day and driven away. Improving it would be admission of guilt that there was a problem. Anything Porsche offers will not use LN Nickies cylinders and will only offer what the factory engine always has. This isn't comparable with an RND or Flat 6 engine at all. Let the factory do it, I have been fighting head to head with them for over a decade. When you could buy a new crate 996 engine for 5-7K, I was still selling my 15,00.00 solution and had a long line from the beginning. Some people don't want what the factory has to offer, even if its cheaper. The lowest cost offering we've had in a long time is 20,500.00 and thats an elective Stage 1 build with a ton of incentives and no failures. Thats a turnkey job- ship us the car and receive it back ready to rock. I know of 4 that sold in the past 7 years. One of those was crashed and was sold at an insurance auction. One more of them was my own car, and two belonged to customers. People don't buy what we create to keep it for a while and sell it.

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Interesting

"Improving it would be admission of guilt that there was a problem. Anything Porsche offers will not use LN Nickies cylinders and will only offer what the factory engine always has. This isn't comparable with an RND or Flat 6 engine at all. Let the factory do it, I have been fighting head to head with them for over a decade. When you could buy a new crate 996 engine for 5-7K, I was still selling my 15,00.00 solution and had a long line from the beginning. Some people don't want what the factory has to offer, even if its cheaper." All good/fair points except I think it's pretty obvious (even to Porsche) that there were/are serious issues with at least some of the M96's (as highlighted by the settlement oh the IMSB lawsuit). Even when settling suits there is technically "no admission of guilt", so this shouldn't be an issue...RND clearly identified a real potential market (there are over 100,000 996's still on the road?) before investing a huge amount of time and money into this venture. Seeing as Porsche has all the original design spec's, I'd think they'd have an advantage/head start on a run of improved replacement engines... Then again, they've clearly had this all along and haven't done it yet, so...

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I wouldn't be in the market for an engine that was double (or more) the price of a factory crate for something that's pretty much the same specs.

Dear Rennlist forum members, Thank you for your patience in waiting for our response to your questions and comments. The below should address majority of the questions, but please don�t hesitate to contact us directly for more information on the program. RND Email / Phone: [phone removed] Program Background: As revealed earlier in the thread, RND Engines is a total team effort between Jake Raby, Charles Navarro and European parts specialist/wholesaler SSF Imported Auto Parts. SSF is proud to be able to team up with the top industry experts for these engines and would not have even entertained this project were Jake and Charles not part of it. All parties involved have the same high-quality standards and are first and foremost Porsche enthusiasts at heart. It is not just a business for all involved, but a passion. It is true that this program was developed to be sold through professional automotive repair specialists. Although RND Engines has a preferred installer network, the program IS available to any automotive repair specialist that has an active account with SSF Imported Auto Parts. If your repair shop is not yet a customer of SSF, the repair shop can contact SSF directly and mention the RND Engines program to get set up with a wholesale account. We welcome new repair shops interested in either the RND Engines program or our industry leading European parts offering. The network of preferred installers is available strictly as a resource for any vehicle owners that do not already have a European repair specialist that they get their vehicle serviced at. Although RND Engines is NOT a direct to retail program, the decision to advertise and post within the rennlist forums is to create awareness amongst the vehicle owners and to make Porsche owners aware that there is now another available option in the market for M96/97 engines. The Porsche specialist repair shops across the USA (and Canada) are aware of this program, but the word needs to get out to the actual owners of the cars. Currently there is NO retail sales outlet for RND Engines, but we will not rule out that there may be one in the future. If one becomes available, we will make sure to update the forum members of this development. Pricing: All RND Engines have an MSRP/Suggested List price ranging from $18,850.00 - $19,800.00. This MSRP range applies to all of the below engine designations which are currently in our program. Please keep in mind that this is only the MSRP, and vehicle owners will need to consult with their Porsche specialist repair shop for actual costs/labor, etc., and to possibly negotiate a better price. The MSRP DOES include freight charges for shipping the new engine to the Porsche specialist repair shop along with freight charges for shipping your core back to RND Engines for the core evaluation. Currently Available Engine Designations: M96.20 2.5 Liter 97-99 Boxster M96.22 2.7 Liter 00-02 Boxster M96.23 2.7 Liter 03-04 Boxster M97.20 2.7 Liter 07-08 Boxster, 08 Boxster Limited Edition, 07- 08 Cayman M96.21 3.2 Liter 00-02 Boxster S M96.24 3.2 Liter 03-04 Boxster S, 04 Boxster S Special Edition M96.01 3.4 Liter 99 Carrera, Carrera 4 M96.02 3.4 Liter 99 Carrera, Carrera 4 M96.04 3.4 Liter 00-01 Carrera, Carrera 4 M97.21 3.4 Liter 07-08 Boxster S, 08 Boxster S Limited Edition, 06- 08 Cayman S M96.03 3.6 Liter 02-05 Carrera (996), 02-04 Carrera 4, 02- 05 Carrera 4S M97.01 3.8 Liter 05-08 Carrera S, 06-08 Carrera 4S, 07-08 Targa 4S Core Charges: RND Engines has put together a fair and honest program for core charges and core evaluations. Yes, the core charges at first glance can seem daunting, and range between $6k - $17K (highest is for a 3.8ltr) depending on engine designation, however there are ways a Porsche specialist repair shop can determine the viability of your core up-front with a pre-core evaluation. Having this pre-core evaluation done will allow repair shops and ultimately vehicle owners the ability to gauge with near certainty what they will be receiving back from their original core charge. Also, RND Engines works closely with the Porsche specialist repair shops to determine up-front if certain main components of an engine core ARE re-usable, and if they are, RND will work with the repair shop and vehicle owner to possibly reduce the core charge before the transaction takes place. Meaning the core charges you see are advertised core charges, but there are ways to reduce them with up-front analysis via the repair shop. Consider RND�s position, someone promises their core is a good 3.8 ltr core, then we get back a completely broken 3.4 ltr. instead. RND needs to be able to replace that 3.8 ltr and the core charges reflect that current market price. The main components evaluated by RND Engines are below (some variations based on engine designation): Block Crankshaft Crank Carrier Cylinder Head Cam IMS Lifter Housing Piston Rod Primary Oil Pump Scavenge Oil Pump Another great advantage of the RND exchange program is the 10 day turnaround time RND offers from when the engine core is received back at RND to when the repair shop and vehicle owner see the final core inspection results which ultimately determines the amount credited back from the original core charge. RND wants to make sure any credits owed from the core deposits are paid back as quick as possible. We sincerely hope this post addresses most major questions, comments, and concerns. Thank you to Jake for replying to many individuals already since we (RND/SSF) were not able to jump on many of the forum questions as quickly as desired. Please do not hesitate to contact us directly for more info. Contacting RND directly will be the fastest method for us to reply. Kind Regards,

Thanks for the update, but considering there are so many of us out here that would tackle the job ourselves, you should really consider selling direct to the end user. Personally, I have never removed a 996 engine, but it sure looks easy. I wouldn't pay somebody to do it for me (most likely) as it would just add thousands to the bill, which would cause me to go another direction. I ask that you really think about selling to end users and put a program in place. That would be great! Best of luck with your endeavor!

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So if you lose your IMS and trash your block, or have any other catastrophic failure that renders your block unusable, "$18,850.00 - $19,800.00" for the engine, "$6k - $17K" for the core, Maybe $2K-$5K labor for install and other misc. parts? That's just not going to work for most 996 owners... eg: I just looked at a 2003 996 Turbo with 30K miles on the clock for $35,000.

I honestly don't understand how this can be viable. If someone wants to pay me $35,000 for my engine I'll throw in the rest of the car, completely free. Yes, I know. Better engine and all, but....

Selling engines directly is a moving target. Does the installer have the proper equipment to do the job to the standards the program requires? Who will carry out the break in service, etc, etc. As RND stated, these avenues are being explored but they are not what the program was built to support initially. I know full well what is required to handle these things and not lose a reputation, and that's why I only will install my engine here at Flat 6 Innovations. I learned before the age of 18 that I could not put my reputation into the hands of another installer. I never forgot the lesson that I learned.

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Might not work for some under certain circumstances but it will work for others under certain circumstances. Some will just like having a nice stock engine like PORSCHE should have built in the first place with the nicke cylinders and all the other stuff. Maybe their core is still good but they don't want to just repair it as cheap as possible and end up wondering what will happen next. Many engines are saved before the block is trashed. This isn't a program for everybody but I have no doubt there is a market. Some owners just truly like the damn cars and would like to keep them forever. Others aren't so passionate about them and for those they will only spend enough to keep them if the cost doesn't exceed what the car will sell for. AT some point in time these cars will be worth more than you think but they will always regardless of price be one of the most fun cars to drive.

Nice idea, but I don't think this pricing model is going to work for many people.

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Along with school bus races the local track here (nascar track, oval, for stock racing) has a jump for people who want to junk/jump their cars in front of the crowd. So rather than spending the money to replace the motor, in a model where it's still super easy to find cars, may as well take a porsche over the jump. =) I'm sure people would love it! Then save $5-10k and buy another used car.

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If you have no core wouldn't just be ? [*]"$18,850.00 - $19,800.00" for the engine, [*]Maybe $2K-$5K labor for install and other misc. parts?

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no, the 19k is before the core. so if you have a $10k core charge, your bill comes to $29,800. Once they get and evaluate the core, you get $10k max back, but probably less. If you have no core, you pay the $29,800.

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No, I think the MSRP does NOT include the core charge.

Some people would rather take the car to a destruction derby, some will rebuild cheap as possible, some will spend whatever is needed to make it as good as possible. Some buy ROLEX, some buy TIMEX, some say I'll just get it off my phone. These cars won't always be so plentiful, especially now that they are cheap many owners are financially not in the same boat as the air cooled owners are and the cars will slowly go out of existence.

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Jake, why we don't hear much about 9a1 failures on Rennlist? In fact, there are a few 997 engine reliability threads in the 997 forum that suggests the 9a1 is bullet proof! I imagine there could be failures but doesn't seem like it's anything close to the degree of M96 failures. Your comment above sounds like it's gonna be the same or worse than M96s?

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Or to the gun range. Actually, those guys should've saved the chassis and shot up the engine instead.

To RND Engine LLC; First: You must have a rep name of some kind, even if it is only a first name. It is nice to deal with a rep name, not simply impersonal entities such as XYZ LLC. A real person had to write this post. Second, just an idea to further understanding of your business case: Why don't you give a specific example to show a typical cost as an example only . I will be selfish, use my case. A C2 3.4l with a good working engine assuming some expected components from the core (you decide which one and how many) will have to be replaced since after all, this is a 15-yr-old engine we are dealing with. Mine has 152K kms.

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LOOKS LIKE BONNIE AND CLYDES CAR

Apparently one of the key selling points of the program is that the engines are already built and ready to ship. I hope they didn't build too many! Maybe potential buyers should hold on until these are liquidated on eBay.

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Many have said the same thing about Jakes motors, they are more expensive, he doesn't even advertise and there is a year wait. Once the RNB motors start to get into cars we may hear glowing reports and they could become popular. It seems to me if the 996 models start to go up in price the price of the motors may become a non factor. I bought a Ferrari in 1984 or there abouts, it was a GTB4 for only 23000 dollars. Everybody wanted a Daytona not the GTB 2 or 4. today its between 2 and 3 million dollars. Look at American muscle cars, they were cheap once. I'm not saying this will happen to the 996 but I do predict that the time will come when they become just another expensive PORSCHE. If it still looks good I can hear the auctioneer saying here is a 996 with a stock engine that has all the upgrades from RMB and stating to take the bids, its a possibility. It may be many years but it probably will happen.

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Nah, they're smart. They knew the engine core = $$$$$

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The distribution and sales side of the RND Engines program is handled by SSF Imported Auto Parts, who is the exclusive distributor of RND Engines. Since we (SSF) are a wholesale only business our SSF sales reps deal with repair shops and have no contact with vehicle owners as it pertains to RND Engines. Heading up the RND project for SSF, and the staff behind the posts on rennlist are Matthias (VP of Purchasing & Product Management) and Ken (Senior Product Manager - Porsche). Together with Jake from Flat 6 and Charles from LN Engineering we make up the team that stands behind the product. Just to use your example as a possible scenario. If certain engine mechanical issues brought your vehicle to a Porsche specialist repair shop and it is determined that a new engine (or rebuild) is the only feasible method to get the car back on the road and running reliably for years to come, then the process would be handled as follows. 1. Repair shop contacts SSF and verifies the engine is in stock (in this case an M96.04) and reviews with the vehicle owner the cost of the engine, core charge, and labor cost to install. For this specific engine the MSRP would be $18,900.00 with a core charge of $9,000.00 (this does not include labor) 2. At this point the repair shop can perform what we are calling a "pre-core evaluation," in order to possibly reduce the core charge. This may have been done already during step 1. With a borescope a repair shop can tell which main components (besides the crankshaft) may be damaged without opening up the motor. If this pre-core analysis is performed and sent to SSF by the repair shop, the core charge can be reduced. The main components that if not reusable could reduce the amount of money you get back are the Block, Crankshaft, Crank Carrier, Cylinder Head, Cam, IMS, Lifter Housing, Piston, Rod, Oil Pump. So lets say a shop can determine in the pre-core evaluation that your engine core only had scored cylinders and an IMS bearing failure that took out the IMS. In that scenario the core charge could be reduced from $9,000.00 to $3,250.00. The $3,250.00 core charge is now made up of the IMS, which if damaged deducts $750.00 from your original core charge (and you already knew up front was bad) and the Crankshaft which for this engine holds a value of $2,500.00. Once the core is sent back to RND for evaluation and it is determined that the crankshaft is reusable you will get back $2,500.00 of your originally reduced $3,250.00 core charge. So in that scenario you would be paying for the cost of the engine, the install, and $750.00 for the core money you would not get back for the broken IMS. 3. If the vehicle owner decides to go the route of an RND engine it would be shipped directly to the repair shop within 5 business days. Once the engine has been replaced the core gets sent back to RND with a turnaround of 10 days your old core will have been evaluated and the analysis sent back to your repair shop. We want to make sure that vehicle owners car gets back on the road as quick as possible and any core money is returned as quickly as possible. I hope that scenario helps with clarifying how certain aspects of the program work. We realize the RND program is not for every vehicle owner and depending on the scenario may or may not make sense. We appreciate the feedback and hope our correspondence is a little more personal now with our names out there.

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When we were 5 years into the era of the M96 very few stories were online too.. we are prepared and light years ahead.. That's all I have to say!

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Thanks for the reply, Jake. I think the 997.2 are holding their values really well (cheapest 997.2 is $50k) because their engines seem to be bullet proof so far. I can see a market for the following for some people: RND996.1: $3k roller + $20k RND + $2k core + $2k install = $27k RND996.2: $6k roller + $20k RND + $2k core + $2k install = $30k RND997.1: $10k roller + $20k RND + $2k core + $2k install = $34k

Quotes source post: 12238465

I think you are comparing apples to apple's bigger cousin. I'm sure (mainly because Jake is willing to associate his name with it) that the RND will be good and deserve the reputation it gets. The difference, however, is that you are getting more from Jake's motors. You also have the option of going beyond a simple better than stock rebuild. Jake obviously makes a enough off the work his shop does, but the number of people willing to put a $20k+ "stock" motor in their $15k car is pretty limited. Of that select group, how many are going to need a motor "now", can't wait for Jake, and don't want the option to go beyond stock performance? That's my real question about this motor. I wish them all well, but Jake will still be my first call if our motor goes as this price point doesn't sway me and I want to do at least a stage 2 build. I don't want to, but I can wait a year or two for Jake if need be.

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That's an interesting chart. We all know that the few Raby cars that get resold command a premium. Could we see a time where a 996.1 goes for $30k+ again if it has a RND motor and stock motors are sold for near roller prices? Could the lack of a RND motor become the new way to lowball a seller just like the lack of a known IMSB replacement does now? It does offer interesting potential future questions if the price tag doesn't scare too many people off.

The difference I'm noting is that Jake doesn't take inventory risk with the exception of parts he needs to clear a 12+ month backlog. The trouble with this program is that it is a 2-step distribution model plus the tied up operating capital associated with stocking $12,000 engines (their cost). RND sells to SSF (or they get a commish) and they in turn sell to a dealer who marks it up. The reason Jake's motors are superior and just a little more money is because you are dealing directly with him. No distributors and no tied up operating capital eating into income. Jake, I know your name is on this but don't feel compelled to continue to send Master-length emails defending these guys. We're blessed to have you address our mechanical issues. Let your colleagues fend for themselves. .....and I mean that with the utmost respect and admiration.

JAKE DOES NOT DO STOCK ENGINES. JAKE WILL BE BETTER FOR MANY BUT NOT FOR ALL. JAKE BEING ON THE RND TEAM IS A REAL PLUS AS HE WILL ONLY HAVE HIS NAME ASSOCIATED WITH IT IF HE FEELS IT IS GOOD. THE PRICE MAY OR MAY NOT BE CLOSE TO JAKES DEPENDING ON WHAT A CUSTOMER WOULD HAVE JAKE DO. MANY DO NOT WANT TO WAIT A YEAR OR MORE FOR A NEW MOTOR IN THEIR CAR. I THINK THE RND WILL HAVE PLENTY OF CUSTOMERS, TIME WILL TELL. I'M STILL THINKING MINE WILL LAST JUST AS IT IS LONGER THAN I WILL, TIME WILL TELL.

I don't feel like I was taking up for them. I was taking the opportunity to explain things before people here on the forums turned this into a train wreck with the 23K price that wasn't true.... Or that the core charges were being misunderstood. All that said, I have my own engine program to manage and thats what I do, on top of development and building engines myself. RND is it's own company and there's a dedicated team to support the initiative. It hasn't needed me for months. It'll need me when Cayenne and 9a1 engines are added to the lineup, till that I'll be in my world, having a hell of a lot of fun :-)

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He spends a lot of time advertising and it pays off, just that rather than more traditional methods he chooses more social media and word of mouth through social media. As a great example, look at how many people on here swear by him and defend him... He is doing something right. Like I've said before, it would be a great case study for some marketing people/students to look at.

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I've never had a single person say they learned about us from Facebook. I can count on one hand how many people have come our way from this forum as well. People find us when they need us, and thats usually after 1-2 other shops gave up on them. I've honestly never had a business plan, and never even tried to build this business. I've never even been to a bank to ask for capital to grow the business and I built it all in cash. A few years ago someone asked me if I had a business plan. My response was "yeah, to make money". I started all of this as a kid working on junk engines that were given to me. Its all just kind of happened. Because of that I've never had a job and haven't worked a day in my life.

I found Jake on this forum but I never felt he was advertising. I was impressed by his knowledge and his not politicly correct attitude. Those qualities impressed me enough to send my car all the way to Georgia from Nevada to have the IMSB and other things done. He never has posted a price about the different packages he offers. If you want to know you got to call and find out for yourself. If you dont like the prices or the wait then bring it somewhere else, Jake has his way and thats it. When all is said and done you cant go to a better place as far as the honesty and quality of work is concerned. I believe there are some on here that just cant stand that Jake is the man as far as these motors are concerned, it doesn't matter because like it or not its just the way it is. He's pretty damn good at business too even if its not the conventional way most business's operate.

JD Arthur, Thanks for the business and all the kind words and support. That said, NONE of this is about me... Its about an engine program that Charles and I conceived several years ago and then made happen with SSF Auto parts. Its not about my engines, because RND engines are not Raby engines, and this topic was started as a company introduction for RND Engines. So, let's please keep this on topic and not compare the RND engine with what a Raby engine is. Spend the time comparing the RND engine with other engine offerings from other vendors.

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I think your motors are being talked about because the RND motor is in the ball park of your price (at least based on what I've heard before and you seem to acknowledge that earlier in the thread) of a "basic rebuild". Though I've gotten the impression that you upgrade even more so you still have a better motor. The equation seems to get worse for the RND if you don't have a good core (and maybe it's the same for your motors, I've never seen that discussed beyond you saying you "discount" for upgrading a currently healthy motor). As I said before, simply because you were involved I believe it will be a good motor to go with. It's just the price that I don't get. I just don't see many of the guys that throw in another used motor going this route as they are typically on a relatively small budget. I also don't see it making much of a dent in your backlog as I think the people willing to layout that kind of money can probably afford to (and are willing to) wait for you. If/when our motor goes*, this price won't entice me. I'd still rather work with you for its resurrection. Plus we can talk about performance upgrades vs the RND just being stock in that regard. * I know you'd like me to come in before it goes and I understand your reasoning. I can justify bringing it back to life, but I can't justify effectively replacing what is currently a healthy motor.

Well let hope Porsche mass produces these engines or a replacement engine and sells them for 14k again. With these prices nowadays there is no point going this route as you could buy a 996 Turbo for near the same money.

It still wouldn't have Nickies cylinders.

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You haven't gone back far enough as it was even cheaper than that. My my, how things have shifted from RND to Jake talking about himself again...

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There is no financial sense putting even a used and unmodified motor back in a dead 996. Unless you bought it as a roller, you aren't going to see your money back (and then breaking even may be questionable). Those of us that are willing to do it or have done it (in any form) do so because we believe there is more to the car than it's current monetary value. We've had hers for 15 years since she ordered it as she wanted it. It was the realization of her childhood dream. Bad financial sense, but we'll do what's needed to keep it running and bringing it back because there is a large emotional attachment that is worth more to us that anything we could ever hope to get for the car.

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At those prices I'd roll the dice, as we all know there are MANY stock engines still going strong after this many years. Also at those prices I'd buy a set of Nikies, put them in, and still come out ahead. Or, run it a while and see if that's going to be a problem in the short term (0-5 years), if so, replace, if not run it until there will be a problem. But then again, it would be my luck that just after replacing the engine I get hit and the car totaled. Doubt insurance would pay $20k for the car and an addtional $20k for the engine...

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Marketing!

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Thanks Matthias/Ken! Appreciate the time you took to clarify your program for me. It puts it into a better perspective. I wish you success! Martin

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Are you aware "puting in Nickies" costs over $6,000 ? and 2-3 months!

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Nope I don't believe he knows what he thinketh he knows....

I ran into Alwin Springer at LBGP and after denying he new anything about the street engines he alluded to a company in So. Ca. A friend of mine and customer of this shop saw the entire Factory team preparing to go to Laguna from his shop. Maybe two alternatives to the Factory might help them get back into a more cost effective replacment. Apparentlly this place is thriving and they have a tremendous inventory maybe its worth looking into. http://www.visionmotorsports.com/#!products/cjg9

Every post from Jake IS some form on advertising. There is nothing wrong with that as long as everyone understands that. The crankshaft in the RND rebuild engines, are they reground for larger bearings if needed or are they all supporting standard sized bearings on a standard sized cranks (micro-polished at most and nothing more)?

Even the "budget" rebuilds are not far off this price. I did the $7500 rebuild/refresh with UFO for $9000 (almost 15K miles later cars purrs and burns no oil). If you factor in $1000 for shipping and another $600 for an LN IMS you are at $9000. They offered the nickies if I wanted - it was about $6000 more and at least a 12 week wait. That puts you in the $15000 range - with a good core - and a 3 month wait. So $18K, while high, does not seem crazy.

The problem is that not everyone wants nickies and are perfectly fine with rolling the dice on factory sleeves.

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. Even though they are not round and have a taper? Even though the chances of re- ringing them is less than 25% in their favor? These engines measure .001" out of round for every 10k miles generally. New rings hate that. When I started working with these engines a new M96 engine was 7,500.00 Then the economy crashed and the dollar tanked and overnight the engines jumped to 11k. The same thing happened to the M96 that's happening with the 9a1 cost wise and that's why other shops haven't cracked open the 9a1. They can't see the forest for the trees. I'm even having a hard time filling 9a1 rebuild classes, but today we have lines of people waiting to attend the M96 engine rebuild school. In 2008, when I had my first M96 engine rebuild school I had a whopping 5 attendees, with one being a surgeon and the other a professor. These things go in cycles and it's a matter of thinking ahead and identifying and creating solutions for the problems before anyone else notices them. Look guys, it's simple.... Either you want to buy an engine like what RND has developed, or you don't. Either you love your car with a 20k budget, or you don't. That said, I have a 930 engine to finish and need to pull the engine out of my Testarossa for a major service. It's spring and I have 50 acres of grass to cut, so you guys do what you want to do and I'll be having fun whether engines sell, or not.

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It really is this simple but RL can't do simple, you know that Jake. Everything turns into a obsessive bench over-analysis just to come back to square one.

I am attached to 911's but not my particular car so as have said I would never dump this much money into a car worth $16k. Would just by a 997. There's a pretty black Cab on CL in DFW that's a 2007 for $37k with 58k miles. It also has round 911 headlights like all non-996 models. But, if I were to buy a new engine, no question I would spend a little more on Jake. Whatever about him advertising. He makes such an awesome contribution to this forum.

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Guess u will be selling lots of engine based on ur POS bearing blowing up,lol!!!

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I even tried Google Translate and can't for the life of me figure out what this means.

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Wow this thread got of tack. I think he was making a crack about the 996 being a piece of s**t. Read through some of his other posts. My armchair psychological profile is he's a troll or has self esteem issues.

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I'm with you. Even being bilingual does not help me either, understanding what he really meant.

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He was referring to the alleged LN bearing failure.

I hope you weren't referring to me saying our cars are POS's? I love everything about my car except the headlights and I got the covers for those to make them look round. My car costs only about $1500 a year in repairs (+ oil, etc) and it's my daily driver. I won't be replacing it with anything (997 or 991) until in fact, it does blow up.

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http://lnengineering.com/products/wa...ins-clips.html +shipping & labor & etc. Do you need help with the math too?

Prodriver-don't think it's apples for apples .I believe the RND offering is based on reusing the old pistons .Nickies are certainly one of the main cost drivers -one would have thought that their cost would go down as volume increases .The opposite has happened at least a 25% increase in 4 years .

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You can get them from Hartech in the UK. You can buy only one if needed.

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I was agreeing with you. My comment was directed to Mr. Chiamac.

This whole program has me at a loss. So to get a stock engine in a short time frame you have to cough up $30k up front, then within a couple of weeks you have a new, somewhat improved, stock engine for $20-25k. Or, you ship your car to Jake, get a full custom motor with all of the updates and you can make three ~$10k payments spread out over the course of the year or so it takes to build a better engine. So the new program is good for those who are impatient and willing to settle? If you are impatient and willing to settle, can't you get similar results for much less?

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I had the same reaction. For the foreseeable future you can get an engine wrapped inside a whole car for less than these prices and you still have the ability to sell your roller and core to offset that expense. I just don't understand. Maybe the development of this program is a sign that our cars are about to be worth much much more? Hahahaha. Just kidding.

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This is incorrect, "Nickies" are only available @ LN engineering.

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I was responding to a post saying he could buy Nickies & "put them in" like you would bolt on a new exhaust. RND does reuse stock pistons after applying a coating. I don't know the cost to prep the pistons. I do know if you take your 996 to a shop to have Nickies installed it will cost $6,000+.

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May not be the trade name "Nickies" but they are Nikasil liners. http://www.hartech.org/porsche_996_9...er_liners.html

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They are different (but similar. I'm not sure about the performance/reliability delta) http://lnengineering.com/resources/2...ehind-nickies/

Mahle also makes them

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Mahle make Mahle Nikasil, not Nickies. The differences between Nikasil and Nikies are described in the link above.

Understand .Nickies is the LNE product .Maybe I missed it in the link you provided but the Mahle product I was referring is sold by Automotion and is for the watercooled flat 6 .

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Any link to it? I searched www.automotion.com and found nothing.

Google ecklers automotion Porsche 996 cylinders .They are there .I am having trouble pasting the link

Mahle does not make them for any water cooled Porsche engine. Genuine Nickies remove 100% of the cylinder above the water jacket, they are much more than a liner that's bonded to the original parent material. Make sure you compare apples to apples.. That said, doing one cylinder leaves 5 more to fail the same exact way. Makes zero sense to me.

OK, found the link http://www.automotion.com/engine-blo...-set-of-6.html

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Read that closely... They are QSC, a Chinese company. On top of that, when you buy them who is going to machine the block and diamond hone them? Their picture looks like a GT3/ Turbo cylinder, which slides into the water jacket and seals up with O rings. Completely different. The LN price is for complete, ready to assemble block work.

Jake -no argument from me on doing just one .There is not enough information on the Mahle M96 product to determine how it's installed .But they definitely offer a M96 product .

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Yes I agree. I included the link here just for everyone to see - apples vs oranges.

The devil is in the detail-QSC not Mahle I was wrong .Obviously more research required . -QSC could be very good or not so good .As far as machine work there are plenty of alternatives available . There is no question that the LNE offerings are high quality and complete .There is also no question that it's a pretty stiff cost . The goal is a reliable base engine at a reasonable price for the diy person which means -reuse old pistons - aftermarket rings and find a cylinder sleeve solution for $2,000( sleeves and machine work ) . What would be great is if LNE offered a cylinder solution along the line mentioned above

Told ya so. That's purposely written to do exactly what it did to you. What would be so great about that?

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Sure it would be great, even better if they gave you the nickies for free with a purchase of a complete gasket set, but even then someone would probably bitch about paying for the machine work.

The short answer on why it would be great is - a good rebuild would end up about 5,000 with owner provided labor .

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I think you need to do some more math. At wholesale the parts for one of these engines cost more than 5k if the build is comprehensive enough to be worth doing.

There are all kids of levels of "rebuilding", most should be called a refresh or a repair however, sure would be nice to have the option to mix and match whatever a diy gearhead wants to do. Right now the options are limited because some of the prices are stupid expensive. Give it some time and other options will emerge like they did for the 944 or 928 owners. The more people start repairing/refreshing/rebuilding their M96 engines and share what to and what not to do, what works and what doesn't, the better it will be for the real gearheads. I'm doing my part and a few others have too, we just need more but that WILL happen over time.

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My math is good with aftermarket piston rings -I have not included flywheel and clutch .

Ultimately, this thread accomplished RND's goal, which was to increase awareness of the company.

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Right it did, I sent a few of my indy's info on this. Even though it is out of my price range now. Rather pick up a 996tt and keep the C4S on life support until its value is back where it's worth putting money into it.

I haven't read all the posts, but am I the only one concerned that a piston is a core item? So, it's entirely possible if I were to buy an engine from them, it would have used pistons, maybe as much as 150,000 miles used? Are the cams reground? Heat treated? Is the crank reground? Heat treated? Cases line bored? Rods sized? New piston pins? Are the guides replaced, knurled, New valves, springs, seats?

I can answer these questions. If any cam lobe is found outside of the specification, or has pitting, or erosion thats visible, the camshaft is replaced. In a situation where the camshaft cannot be replaced, the cam is then hard welded and reground to factory specifications. Thus far any crankshaft that has not passed magna flux inspection, or has seen any damage at all has been replaced. Some engines have received new Porsche crankshafts. We have the only under sized and over sized bearings in the world for these engines, however they have not yet been released from development. When these cranks are reground they do require heat treatments to their surfaces, so its not like the old days where a crank could be turned the first under size and be fine. I expect that we will not have the required amount of data and feedback from the test engines for two years to support crankshaft grinding. Remember, the M96/ M97 crankcase does not house the main journals like all other Porsche engines before and after it. The M96 utilizes a crankshaft carrier design. Any carrier that does not meet specification is replaced. Like the crankshaft, some of these have been sourced new and we also have a reconditioning process being tested alongside the crankshaft grinding procedure that may save carrier assemblies in the future. Rod are replaced if they do not meet specification, or pass magna flux. No, thats one part with the M96 that never fails or wears. I have seen them live through cataclysmic failures and be unscathed. 3 chain and 5 chain heads receive different treatment and different model designations further receive different treatment. Valve guides are not knurled, they are replaced. The engines that have problematic valve seats get all their intake seats replaced. We have yet to see an exhaust seat fail in any of the heads, so those are not replaced, but everything gets a 3 angle valve job. I am out of here this week, I am sure that Matthias will be around to answer questions. I have to finish this 930 engine thats been driving me crazy :-)

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Did you bother to look at Hartechs website? They are Nikasil sleeves.

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I suppose when you can do your own engines and not have spend $20k like the average punter then it may make sense.

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http://www.vertexauto.com/SubCategor...0Bearings.aspx

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Read it years ago when I wanted to rebuild my engine for more power. They are not "Nickies" !!

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Same thing. One just has a name.

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Which is probably why they signed on as a premium site sponsor.

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Did you bother to look at Hartechs website? They are Nikasil coated sleeves.[/QUOTE Have you bothered to read LN website? They are "Nickies" sleeves, patented I believe.

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This forum wouldn't make up 1% of 996 owners worldwide I would think. 100's of 1,000's of 996s owners across the globe wouldn't and couldn't diy their car or take much more interest other than it's a nice car so a forum on cars is the last place they'd be. As a new 996 owner but not new to Porsches their is a recurring theme from one person here about how **** the M96 is and how it is doomed for failure at every turn.

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Nickies are made from custom extruded aluminum stock whereas the Hartech sleeves are cast aluminum. Big difference in strength and ductility, which allows Nickies to maintain an open deck design preferable for cooling and go to bore sizes up to 103mm.

I used to hear the same "overpriced" comments. They were right and they were oh so wrong. My prior to retirement job was as product manager of a product that sold in very low quantities to some very specific customers. In that job, I had responsibility for the specification, development, testing, certification, patenting, documentation, customer support, manufacturing process documentation and liaison with the manufacturer of about 5 variations of the product. And management for the group that did it all. All while specifying and managing the same group that was developing the follow on product, one with very little similarity to the original. (A different industry, but kinda similar to what LN/Flat6 is doing. Multiple generations of products simultaneously.) This job allowed me unique insights into the financials involved. It was my budget. Production costs were trivial compared to the development costs. What I specified as the design goals for the follow on product took probably 5 years before the first sale. We are talking many millions of dollars in costs every year with no certainty of any sales nor certainty when or how much a revenue stream from any sales might flow back to the corporation. The patent itself was awarded after 2 years and two passes through outside lawyers and the patent office. The lawyers got paid before the corporation did (and I wrote most of their justifications and rebuttals for them.) It was a big risk, with uncertain reward. I can assure you the accountants want to see big margins on any potential sales to justify those risks and expenses. So before you beat up LN/Flat6 over their prices, consider how many products they developed that never sold or sold in trivial quantities that would never in decades produce any profit. Consider the processes they have created (that others have used). Consider the documentation. The tools. Even the fact that you talk here to the developer. Consider they didn't just develop one product but didn't stop the quest for an even better one and kept investigating to try and find out the causes. Consider the costs they had years before they received the first dime of income from a product. How many engines did they destroy in the quest? Listen when Jake talks here of multi-engine multi-year testing of something not yet on the market. You want him to stop and just rest on his laurels? Or continue to develop things for our engines? (And our future engines.) Just pump out a product based on limited testing? Or copy what someone else has done like so many advocates of a different approach? There wouldn't be any options for us except for his costs. And his products all taken together have to bring in the money for all that development. The manufacturers and the distributors have to take their cut too. Would we be better off today if they had stuck to air cooled engines?

Do all of the RND rebuilt engines use the RND IMS roller bearing, as opposed to the LN Pro ceramic bearing? If so, is there any reason other than cost behind this decision? I ask because my dealer recently installed an RND bearing in my 996, and I'm trying to learn more about the pros and cons of a roller bearing. I've done searches, and haven't found any threads specific to the RND bearing. Thank you.

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I would call RND/SSF's toll free number and ask what bearing they use. You'll be talking to someone who works there, not someone in an offshore call center. And the person will be knowledgeable, not just a salesman with a script.

Well from looking at the RND engine website it says "IMS Retrofit". If you click the link on that website it takes you to the IMS Retrofit website which is the single row pro (ball bearing) developed by "LN and Flat6". So I don't think a roller bearing is standard in the RND engines!? I could be wrong, but...

That was my understanding when I spoke with them prior to getting an engine. That was almost a year ago though, and I don't think the cylindrical bearing was available at that time. In any case, as they didn't have a finished engine on the shelf to fit my car at the time and it was going to take a couple months rather than the quick swap which is their business model, they accomodated my request for an IMS Solution instead. I totally understand the idea of putting a roller (ball or cylindrical) bearing in an engine with miles on it, given the cost difference is about a grand. But once you're talking a newly-remanufactured engine and given the cost of that, The Solution just made more sense to me.

Roller = Cylindrical On that note, I thought the RND engines had roller bearings in them because that's what they requested. Don't have the time to look for this but this was stated here on RL somewhere.

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Thank you Charles for clarifying this for those of us who try to learn and understand these engines. Sadly there are a few here who just dicker when a simple question would have saved them from the embarrassment of being blatantly wrong. Thanks for taking the time to explain. Hopefully Mr.Wolf has the grace to concede .