C2 vs. C4 in winter

I'm looking to buy a 996 and use it as a DD including throughout the Canadian winters. Any experience from C2 owners who use it all year round in snowy winter environments? In either case I would have a set of winter rims with snow tires. Obviously the C4 would be better, but I want to get an idea of how reasonable the C2 is in snow and ice with appropriate tires.

I have both and I can say that in adverse weather conditions I always take the 4, its more fun. However, I can't speak for cold weather conditions such as snow and ice, but in the rain it does have more grip.

I would say go C4, since they were made for winter weather.

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Actually, they were inspired by the AWD technology originally developed for the 959, which competed in the desert. There is nothing inherent in the C4 that was designed for the winter. I agree that the C4 would have an advantage snow, but a C2 with snow tires and PSM would be up to the challenge as well. Buy a C4 for its AWD year-round , all -weather performance characteristics, but if you buy one only for the snow, you may find that you don't prefer its handling characteristics the rest of the year. You should wait for some C2 owners to weigh in with their winter driving experience...

I can't speak for any c4 cars. I have been driving 2WD 911s all my life. There's a terrific amount of control with true snow tires and a engine hanging over the rear drive wheels. The thing is essentially unstoppable. If you resort to putting chains on it, it can go anywhere. I don't particularly care for 4-wheel engine braking with all wheel drive,--I feel like I'm losing some control. With a 2WD 911, you don't get any of that. I would stay stick to the less complicated.

I drove my C2 all last winter with snows (in Toronto). I felt more secure and stable in it than my previous awd Audi TT Quattro (again with snows). My C2 doesn't have PSM either. Just amazing feel. Never lost traction or had a concern the car would behave unpredictably. You could slide it out at will, but it's just so communicative that you know exactly what's going to happen and when. Only thing you have to watch out for (same as for the C4) is ground clearance.

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Sorry for the Hijack But that's good to know. I am planning on getting dedicated winter tires for my C2 this year. Unfortunately winter tires don't protect me from all the knuckleheads on the road.

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I agree, which is why I don't drive in the snow. But winter tires are much better on cold, dry days too. The rubber stays softer in cold temps, making the handling better. Or so they say!

In my locale we get a moderate amount of snow and I haven't driven my 996 C2 in the worst of it. But my C2 with 17s and Blizzaks did surprisinglt well for me last winter, I can't recall any hairy situations on slick roads. I think the whole concept of using snow tires has been lost over the past two decades. Its a shame because winter tires really make a difference. (This may sound obvious to people who live where there is a lot of snow or people who care about their tires.) With front drive, traction control and a lot of AWD cars out there, people in this area tend to muddle through with all season tires. My experience suggests that in the snow a rear-drive car with snow tires will out do a front-drive car with all season tires.

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I understood the intent of your post, but I think that there is potential for misunderstanding if someone is thinking also about snow-related braking efficiency!

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That is true. I made the mistake of keeping my PS2's on last winter, the tires actually made noise during cold starts when the car sat for awhile in frigid temps.

The 4 is better for all terrain conditions, having a 4 and a 2, I will always use the 4 in adverse weather conditions. The 2, on the other hand, is a blast in dry weather conditions, allowing for greater precise control and fun. If you plan to track the car, go for the 2, if its going to be a DD all year round car in Canadian climate I lean more towards the 4. Just an opinion from a track junkie.

My 4S is better in winter than any SUV. It's also a blast on the track.

The car will be exclusively a DD as I will keep the 968 race car for club racing and the occasional DE. I'd be interested in hearing expereinces, good or bad, from C2 owners who put snows on and drive all year. With the rear weight bias in slippery conditions does the car have a tendency to push? Braking shouldn't be too much difference although the C4 should have some more weight up front. I really need something that I can drive day in and day out as I already need to put in a lift for the race car and storage of all the vehicles becomes a real inconvenience.

My 996 C2 is my daily driver through Chicago winters. With snow tires the car is nothing short of amazing in the snow. The biggest problem I have experienced is that the front lip acts like a snow plow in really deep stuff. I'm sure the C4 would be even better in the snow, but I really didn't want AWD on my car and with 60% of the weight over the rear wheels, the C2 works so well I have never regretted the decision. Good luck.

Thanks for clarifying my "unstoppable" comment in my earlier post. Of course I mean that you will find little in the way of snow or ice that will prevent you from getting to where you need to go! Snow tires today are first rate, manufactured with more exotic compounds which keep them more resilient than ever before as the temps drop. Love the Michelin Alpins.

I drive my DD C4 in Chicago winters and have never felt safer. I am using Blizzaks and can tell you that I feel more in control in the snow than when I drive my wife's 4 wheel drive Suburban.

I'm looking forward to my first season in the C4S with Blizzaks.

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As am I. But I have no illusions that Porsche's half-assed awd will be any better in the 996 than it was in my 993. Be realistic: Porsche awd occasionally routes a small amount of power forward, shortly after it's needed. It's approx. 1996 tech for Mitsubishi and Subaru, and approx. 1984 tech for Audi. All of which will do high speed donuts around a Porsche in the snow. But it'll get you to work, so go for it.

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Audi has a more advances AWD system than Porsche! That's good to know.I already have an Audi A4 Quattro and it's unstoppable in the snow. This thread is relevant to me also.What if you can only have one car and it has to be a Porsche. Which one do you choose? I'm considering going P-car all year long and living in Montreal Canada, snow is an issue. A previous response indicated that a C2 has 60% of its weight on the rear wheels. That compares to a front wheel drive car. I have a lot of experience with FWD cars in the snow so that I would expect a 911 to offer similar traction in the snow then. Would this be correct? I also wonder how a Cayman would do in the snow. PS: You southern folks have it good. No need to be in this dilemma...

I think a C2 with proper snow tires will do fine. A C4 will give you a little added traction from the AWD system, even if it isn't as advanced as some others. I think PSM will be helpful too if you have that feature. As previously discussed, the tires make the biggest difference of all.

Welcome to the fray, Giacomo! I have a C4 daily driver, which I love with snow tires. I've also heard that C2s really hold their own with snow tires, too. You should drive a C4 - set up well, (I believe) it drives pretty similar - since 70%-80% of the power goes to the rear.

Giacomo, I have a 2002 C4S, with snow tires, I drive it as a DD during the winter. It's excellent in the snow, better than an SUV. The all wheel drive will be better on ice, etc. as well. It you are looking at used 996's, a C4 or C4S is not that much more expensive than a C2. I would go with the C4S since you already have a rear drive car for track days Glenn DiGiacomo

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The Porsche will actually have more traction (than the FWD car) because those percentages represent static weights. When you accelerate, weight transfers from the fronts tires to the rear tires, so in your FWD vs RWD senario the front driver has less than 60% of the weight on the drive tires and the RWD 911 has more (when accelerating). In my experience with the Boxster (very similar to the Cayman) it performs well in the snow, but not as well as the 911 as it has a lower percentage of it's weight over the rear wheels. It also has a lower polar moment of inertia which makes it a little harder to "catch" if it starts to spin.

Here's some good footage of Carreras in the snow, both RWD and AWD at this "Wintertraining" event. The drive up the hill is actually a little scary...

I have no doubt that the C2, properly set up, will do great in the snow and ice. After all when it is all white outside we drive with a snow mentality. However, where I am (PNW) rain and patchy snow/ice is where my C4 shines. That is, you get up, you see black pavement, so you are driving "regular" and suddenly run into unanticipated conditions. Every possible margin (which the C4 has over the C2) is what you need.

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It's all about expectations. I really prefer not to have to drive with a "snow mentality" any more that I would drive in normal conditions with a "Camry mentality". I own a (relatively) high performance car to get a high performance driving experience. It's clear from this thread and others about snow driving that many people are fine with going very slowly, not approaching the limits, etc. when there's white stuff on the ground. If that's how you feel about snow performance, than ANY car with snow tires will do. Personally, I would prefer that my car offer a similar relative performance envelope compared to other cars in slippery conditions as it does in dry conditions.

Here's a 996 C2 running the Nurburgring in the snow. The snow driving starts at 1:05. Enjoy....

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Calling it half-assed I think is a little harsh. Per Streather, its actually a different system; the VC is up front [not in the case] where 5% is always sent; it can vary up to 40% based on speed. I've see the front wheels spin while up on jackstands at idle RPM. We don't see much white stuff down here, but I wanted to convey what I've read for clarification in Streather's book.

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That's cool! I love it.

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Oooh, don't get me started. His 996 book has paragraphs of straw man insults for those who question Porsche's VC based AWD, and ZERO actual data on how it functions. Until someone can put force per distance at rpm data to the C4's VC, or demonstrate that the drivetrain is feeding different speed inputs into it that would result in consistent lockup behavior, I call BS. Streather often retreats into the "because someone at Porsche told me so" argument, which carries little weight among enthusiasts who have better than 8th grade math and occasionally think for themselves.

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Uhhh...I am not sure about any Audi's, Mitsubishi's or Subaru's doing any high speed donuts around a C4. I find quite the opposite is true. My C4 (with 17's and taller, thinner snowtires, plus a rear sway bar) will run circles around the Audis, Mits, and Subs while they push off the road with so much understeer. Of course, you can make the Audi's (and other AWD's) turn sharper (than they normally would) by hitting the e-brake or with a Scandinavian Flick. With the C4, it is just throttle fun or try S. Flicks if you really want to throw the back-end around. I run Blizzak LM25's in Colorado and take it up to the hills on snowy days 2-3 times a week (Early AM through Berthoud Pass, Loveland Pass or Vail Pass) passing many cars; while have not ever been passed. ...unless reducing speed for a police officer or bumper-bumper traffic on I-70. For winter performance driving, the C4 is the most fun car I have ever driven. If traveling from point A to B is the goal, a C2 should be fine. If you really want to play in the snow, the C4 is amazing. BTW - for deeper, wet snow that starts to build ruts, leave the P-car in the garage. Even the stock "SUV" height isn't enough to deal with bumpy ice.

Is this a joke? Welcome to the last decade. If you're really faster than an STI in your Porsche in the snow, you need to quit your day job and turn pro, 'cause you're the only one in the world.

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I’m sensing some bitterness. In any event, as a rally SME, I’m sure you have a great deal more technical expertise than the average guy with regard to AWD systems. I guess for most folks using the AWD system in the 996 on the street, they don’t need such “force per distance at rpm data” info – it certainly seemed to do OK in the Wintertaining video. If its half-assed why did you buy it? Confess – you’re just another user account for Marlon. Come on man - its Friday!

Look, the VC works OK. It's just that a driver- or computer-controlled center would work so much better. With 10 year old technology, you can engineer an AWD system that not only doesn't make a car understeer more, it actively counters the car's innate understeering tendencies. Problem, is, Porsche decided to use 30 year old technology instead. Maybe I know a tiny bit more about AWD than most Porsche owners, but c'mon guys, bring your knowledge into the most recent decade at least, before you start making pronouncements on how something works, or doesn't.

Old or new... I'm still looking forward to trying it out with Blizzaks this winter...

How does C2 perform when going uphill in snow? Is the front too light and won't have enough traction?

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I never saw a hill that my C2 wouldn't easily climb (with snow tires) in any snowstorm that I drove it in. However, to be fair the rockies are not located near the roads I commonly drive my C2 in (Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, and Michigan).

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...perhaps the only one in Colorado. Heh, a pro snow driver - hmmm..maybe I should quit the day job; I'll ask the wife. I have not ever driven an STI, but I have never had one pull up behind me in the snow either. I have driven lots of other Subarus, Mitsubishis and Audis; plus SUV's trucks, etc (various combinations of snow tires with/without studs). I have thousands of days racing around Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming and Montana chasing storms and powder to snowboard. For me, getting there (safe and fast) was 1/2 the fun. I admit that I don't have the technical knowledge of "what theoretically is best." However my NB C4 Coupe is more fun and feels more comfortable, responsive and confident that any vehicle I have driven in the snow (ok, except modern snowmobiles). ...and that is with Blizzak LM25's; a tire compromise slanted toward speed on our sometimes "dry" winter roads in CO vs. a fully studded setup. I look forward to time next year on Georgetown lake for some ice racing. Last year all of the events were on days that were too snowy (had to hit the powder) or too warm. Perhaps I'll try some studded tires and try to hit the RMR PCA's Eiskhana race in Jan to test it in a "controlled" environment.

My C2 is simply fabulous in snow with its Blizzacs. As mentioned last year in a similar post, I had all seasons on my 964 C4, and it gave me NO satisfaction in the summer OR winter. The all-seasons are a poor compromise in either season, so go good snow tires, and as long as you have clearance, you will not get stuck. Now, ice is another story, but I'm not sure any car is safe on ice.