can 996 be dropped with just springs?

I was told on a 993, just springs would be a bad idea, and since the stock shocks would be shot at 50k, coilovers ($3k+) were onlyway to go. Is this the same with 996s, or can I just go with lowering springs for 400 bucks or so and be done with it? Not looking for adjustability, just a lower stance.

Yes, but not recommended. You should match the dampers with the springs. Why you ask? The lowered sport springs (does not matter the brand) reduce the travel of the shock absorber. Thus making the shock less effective. As a result, the car will have a bounciness. Great example, the Ricer doods that chop their springs. You know...the Honda Accord that you have seem "bouncing" over bridge expansion joints. Hope this helps. Chad

I had H&R springs installed on my '02 coupe over a year ago and have retained the stock shocks. The ride is much more tight, and precise. The look is much better as the wheels fill the wells nicely, and the car doesn't look too low or "slammed". I had the car aligned and corner balanced when the springs were installed. Yes, the ride is a bit "bouncier" but only on areas of road that are either under construction, or damaged. Other than that, 90% of the time wherever I drive in So. Calif., the ride is ok by me.

Be prepared to replace them soon. The stock dampers will begin to wear rapidly. Just FYI. Chad

Chad, Not quite. I have a '99 996 C2 and I recently had installed H&R springs with the original shocks and I have approximately 52,000 miles on the car. The car actually handles better and does not have the "bounciness" you refer to. In fact it has a terrific ride and the cornering on the car is way better than before. I was warned by many (you included) to replace the shocks, yet I checked with my wrench as well as a service manager at a Porsche dealer and all said it wouldn't be an issue. When I have to replace the shocks I'd have to do it with or without the H&Rs. No issues at all. Midnight Rider -- check this forum further and you'll see similar responses. Check past threads too. It provides a great ride height!

I just recently switched from TechArt Springs to PSS9 full coilovers.... Short answer to your question - Yes, but if you have over 20K on your shocks, I would suggest replacing both while you're at it. I had the TechArts installed w/3K miles on my car, drove it for about 8 months and enjoyed the lowered stance and somewhat stiffer ride. I didn't like the feel of "floatiness" at high speeds (120+) - I experienced this with the stock springs as well, but seemed to be more evident with the TechArt springs. Best bang for the buck though - you get a lowered stance and a slight improvement (depending upon what you're trying to do) in handling. Again, if you have over 20K on your shocks, I'd suggest doing both shocks and springs. 2 weeks ago I had the PSS9's put in and it's a night and day difference. (Both in handling and pocketbook LOL) - I don't track the car (yet) but I do enjoy the occasional spirited run on the weekend or stoplight to stoplight encounter. The car feels so much better now, esp. at high speeds - not to mention I love the height... If you can drop the 2K+ on a coilover set, go for it, otherwise - a nice H&R cupkit setup would do the job as well....

You are a lucky one. I stand corrected. Porsche's 996 repair manual even mentions the different dampers for the appropriate springs in the suspension section. Maybe all those suspensions I have installed and tuned over the years have been for not. Take my advice as you like. I trust my own hands before I trust a service manager. Just my opinion, no offense intended. Chad

bumble, that's a kick butt photo. I'm going to make you a sig. Chad

That's one beautiful SY 996... I saw it first over at 6speed. I want to do the intake pieces and the lip spoiler you have. How do the intake pieces attach to the bumper? Easy enough for DIY?

Chad is right. I tried the Eibach springs with the stock shocks. The car was improved in the original "dive" when you corner or brake, but it was bouncing a lot. You can try lowering springs with shocks (i.e Eibach with Bilstein sport that I have) much improved over stock but pretty harsh ride. Good luck

Perhaps it's the Eibachs that make cars bounce (?), or maybe it's just that at 52k my shocks just haven't worn yet but I get no more bounce with my car with the H&Rs with stock shocks than I had with the stock springs. I have to admit I was very concerned about doing this without replacing the shocks but several on this forum and 6speed had similar experiences. Chad, I'm just hoping my decision to not doing it doesn't come back to haunt me too soon. I'm certain I'll be doing it sometime in the future. No offense intended nor taken by me. You've more often than not had great advice. Quite frankly, if my car bounced like that described I wouldn't drive it that way. Perhaps you should solicit advice from those like me who have used H&Rs with stock shocks instead

Maybe the Eibachs were the problem with the stock shocks. Once I put the Bilstein sports with the Eibachs, no problem.

Everyone�s opinion on this is going to be different. So much of it is personal ride preference and experiences with the various set ups. What may be bouncy and uncontrolled to me may be firm tight and more connected to someone else. Additionally, there are very few of us who have experiences with all the set ups thus comparison are difficult. Personally I would value the opinion of someone who has extensive experience with all the setups I was comparing, but unfortunately, it is much more likely you are going to find people who have experience with 1-2 setups such as the stock set up and then one alternative. Thus their perspective of what is better is skewed by their experiences. For example, on my former 993, I purchased the car with H&R springs and factory shocks. The ride felt fine to me and in fact better than the factory set ups of a couple of club member�s cars I had driven, however, I lost a shock and instead of replacing 1-2 dampers I elected to change the set up completely to PSS-9 coilovers. It was a night and day difference. What I thought was a fine ride was in fact under dampened, sloppy and bouncy in comparison to what the PSS-9�s offered. However, I would have never known this without the direct experience and comparison of the coilovers on the same car and roads. The best advise is drive cars with the various set ups, if possible, and decide what you like better. The safe choice is change the springs and dampers at the same to something that is matched for each other. However, there are many on here that think the spring only route is just fine. Even in the world of the 993�s there are still those that feel the H&R springs with the factory suspension is fine.

Thanks for the compliment gonz... Though, please note that the "Accord bounce" description was an over emphasis to get my point across. I have been in 996's with fried shocks and it still wasn't too bad. Passing on the knowledge is a great way to learn your car. Technically speaking, here's the deal. Any suspension is like a finely tuned musical instrument if setup properly. However, given the choices out there, it is easier to screw up a suspension than make it better. Trust me, I have been there very close to a wall at a test and tune session. Can be down right scary. So I caution you when getting suspension work. Do it right the first time. The basics: Springs - Springs are the primary parts of the energy absorbtion on the car. Springs absorb and store road shock caused by bumps, dips, cracks, and so forth. They absorb this shock by either compressing or extending. When a car's wheel goes over a bump and gets pushed upward, the spring absorbs that additional load, keeps the road shock from reaching the chassis, and makes sure the tire maintains contact with the pavement. How much a spring compresses or extends is determined by its "spring rate." Spring rate is measured in pounds per inch of deflection; for example, 100 pounds per inch. So, say a load of 200 pounds is applied, the spring will deflect 2 inches. Spring rate comes from various factors. For a coil spring, this includes the number of active coils, the diameter of the coils, and the diameter of the spring wire. The fewer coils a spring has, the higher the spring rate it will have. Shocks/Struts - Shocks, in the most basic sense, provide resistance to force in either compression or extension (rebound) travel.* Its job is to �dampen� irregularities or unwanted oscillations.* Bumps result in shaft movements that need to be controlled and shock absorber performance is a key element in the overall control factor. Our cars: Stiffer dampers combined with stock springs are a good improvement. This improvement is based upon the dampening (compression and rebound) rates on the shocks. Since the springs' rate of compression is constant and the OE springs have reduced rates of compression (as compared to RoW, M030, Lowering, & aftermarket sports springs), the dampers have no trouble absorbing and controling the bumps and vibrations. However, if you now perform the opposite and only replace the springs rather than the dampers, different story. By increasing the spring rates (the springs' rate of compression) you are essentially increasing the workload on the dampers. While failure may not occur right away, it will eventually. The stock dampers on the 996 have been developed to work with the OE springs that are partnered with them. By replacing the springs with matched dampers, the ride will not have "bounce" and will absorb and control very movement. When it is finally setup perfectly...the result is INCREDIBLE. The grip and feeling of control will be unmatched. My personal preferences: I prefer a little more oversteer in my track cars. However, street cars should retain some understeer. (just my opinion). Thus, I am hoping my 996 will be just about there. After every suspension tune I perform, I go to an abandoned parking lot and practice skid pad circles to see what the car will do. Understeer or oversteer. My favorite shocks: Koni race and sport adjustables. (unfortunately, they do not make them for the 996.) Please note, Koni Sports are only good to 500# springs. After that, step up and get the Race setup with bound and rebound adjustbility. Bilsteins are next on the list. I have chosen Sports to help with the shorter distance of compression /rebound with my H&R Sports lowering springs. My favorite springs: I prefer aftermarket suspension sets to factory. Why you ask? Because this is all these companys do. Suspensions. And many times, the factories themselves contact them for feedback and components. I like them because, I can order springs to the rates I desire, thus my choice is H&R or Eibach. I had 3 custom sets of 2.5" race springs on my last car. Those of you with coilovers have this ability to tune the car to your taste. So with all this mumbo jumbo on the page...good luck with your decision. And if you wish to perform this task yourself, a note of caution: I have been working on my own cars for sometime. If you have trouble changing a light bulb, tying your shoes, or even filling the car with gas, consult your local professional Porsche shop. Good luck. I hope this helps. Chad

Wow!! Thanks for the detailed analysis. I had the coilovers on my 993, thanks to the PO, and it was an incredible ride for how low it was. Now I understand why. I guess you get what you pay for. Thanks again!!!

Chad never disappoints. Thanks for the great write up. I also came to understand that the spring rate on the stock springs are similar to that of H&R? T or F I don't know but I know that as of yet it's not noticable other than cornering which is much improved. I suspect what Chad is referring to I will experience some time in the future and at which point I'll probably do what Karlooz did and go with H&R Coilovers. Thanks again! Gerard

Gerard, The H&R's that I placed on my car had less coils, thus have stiffer spring rates. I am still to this day trying to get an accurate measurement vs. stock. If I come across anything, I will be sure to post. As far as basic knowledge goes, the H&R's are in fact stiffer that stock. I guess that's why I like them so much. Chad

Thanks Chad!

what are the stock spring rates? differnt for C4? what about differences between 99-01 and 02-04?

Depends if you currently have the US M030 sport suspension. I am perfectly happy with the ride and handling of my H&R springs with the stock sport shocks. Most bouncy complaints seem to come from those who match the stock non-sport shocks with lowering springs. Wear on the shocks will most likely be accelerated a bit...

If all you really want is a lower stance and don't care about performance, ride quality, etc...and you want to do it on the cheap - just take a torch and heat up your springs. Your car will start to lower as the spring heats up and just remove the heat when you get to the desired height...nothing to take apart, no cost for new parts, and no alignment!! This is how the guys with the POS cars in highschool used to lower their cars! The ones who had slightly more money would go to the trouble of removing the springs and cutting off a few coils with a carbide blade.

YIKES!!! By doing that you are re-tempering the metal and changing the characteristics of the spring. Big no, no, no, no... C.

I know, post was meant in jest That said, when I was in highschool there were quite a few cars that were lowered using this hack method Thanks again for the sig!

I realized...Unfortunately, some folks here are not as versed in metalurgy that you or I may be. Just clarifying for those not in the know. Kinda goes back to the "accord bounce". Chad

Chad and others - this is a great thread. While I understand much better now the value of matching dampers if installing a lowering spring kit like H&R, I'm wondering if I can get away with just an H&R kit given that: - The C4S currently has 2K miles - I don' plan on keeping the car more than 18 - 24 months and will only put a maximum of 8K miles in the next two years - I'm not going to be using it for track purposes. The lowering is being done mainly for aesthetic reasons. Couple of other questions for Chad and others (admittedly, I need to do further research / reading on all of these questions): - Is there is "standard" H&R spring set that most people get when lowering? Or is it all a function of how low you want the car? - If you do go with better dampers to match the H&R springs, what are the recommendations? Many thanks.

For C4S Coupe H&R part # 29466 with Bilstein Sports VN7-4613 and BE5-2994 are the ticket. These Bilsteins are technically specific to the X74 package. Check shox.com.

Anyone have a full side shot of a car lowered with H&R springs?

X73 or x74?

According to a post from Alon who called Bilstein and discussed the topic with their technical department; the dampers in the after market Sport Bilsteins are valved exactly to the X74 dampers in compression and rebound which is 40% tighter than early C2 non-M030 dampers. They should match well to the increased weit of C4s since the H&R specific springs address the added weight as well. Perhaps Gert would know if there was a valving difference in X73 dampers vs. X74 kit dampers.

Check it out. http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/s...980#post301980 I think the car looks outstanding with lowered springs.

You wouldn't recommend, then, that just the H&R springs be used, even with the points I noted above?

Thanks for the information Re-animator. As an FYI, it seems that shox.com doesn't stock the H&R springs. -

tirerack has them for $310. Vividracing a little more. The H&R is a progressive spring, so street driving should be acceptable with bounciness noted on early model shocks. For '02 and latter cars, the front shocks are stiffer in rebound then the M030. Try just the H&Rs. I run M030 springs on my stock C2 shocks without bounciness. They seem to like the tighter spring more than the stock ones which are 24#s heavier than stock. The H&Rs are designed to match the stock shocks, but will cause the stockers to wear quicker secondary to the longer shaft of the damper operating 1.25"s deeper into the damper housing. shox.com can do the Sport Bilsteins for about $800 if you wish to pound the car. I am running them on my rear M030s and it has really transformed the vehicle.

Thanks - I think I'm going to go with just the H&R's for now. No pounding anticipated. I've got a MY03, so hopefully the newer shocks will help mitigate some of the bounciness.

Can the car be dropped lower with the coilover setup than just the springs???

Just out of curiousity...How big a job is it to change the springs/shocks? Do the springs need to be compressed, or can you just take the whole thing out as a unit? Once removed, do the springs need to be compressed to be removed from the shock?

Midnight - Here's my suggestion: Buy the Euro M030 for your car. Costs $1,200 including air frieght to your door (3 days). Lowers the car, improves the handling AND the ride, costs little and is all Porsche OEM parts. Kit includes shocks, springs, sway bars etc. This is the cheapest and one of the nicest upgrades for a 911. Check out www.carnewal.com No affiliation just a very satisfied customer.

Leedav, I just had the FVD PSS9 setup installed. The actual install was not difficult, but there were some difficulties and I am thankful to have a good mechanic doing the install. I had the car aligned and that was the problem. Way too much camber. Eventually they got it. Anyway don't do the install without 4 wheel alignment. Love the final result!!!

I was just thinking if I did it I could just pay for the alignment. That's what I've done with other cars.

I'm getting the H&R springs installed this week using the stock shocks on my C4 Cab. I'll report my findings after the install.This is a great thread,although we have opposing points of view on the topic. I had the same situation when I wanted to buy tires, lots of great input but very subjective. I decided on Potenza so2a's and I'm happy with my decision even though many people hated those tires. Anyway, that's what's great about this forum.

Bob - Is there a particular reason you are going with the H&R springs as opposed to the M030 sport springs, which are Porsche OEM equipment? Just curious, because I also am thinking of lowering my '04 996. I want the car lowered for the aesthetics, not so much for the performance.

gota911, I have a lot of confidence in my local mechanic who is a Porsche expert mechanic and previously raced and set up track Porsches in Europe and locally. He has recommended this set up based on my driving style and desire to "tighten up" the handling a bit. I feel the car has a little float that I would like to harness. I don't track the car so my requirements are limited to some inprovement in handling and it will lower the car about 1.1 inches. I'm also getting the GHL mufflers installed for fun...

Ok, so back on track...Can you LOWER IT MORE with coilovers than with just springs? thanks.

Do it right. Your stocks shocks are designed for longer travel with the stock springs. Get the Sports Shocks which are specifically designed for that short shock absorbtion and dampening and react properly to shorter springs.

which shocks???

Bilstein VN7-4613 (fronts) and BE5-2994 (rear).