Z06 vs P-car?

I think GM has come a long way with the Z06, but it is not superior to the Porsche. What do others think? I mean, I have guys at work, drooling over the new Z06 (Motor City).

Personally I prefer the P-Car over the Vette, handling and everything. But I have to say that with straight line acceleration, the vett can beat the pants off any n/a 996.

Your anatomy will dictate which car you should drive. If you have to stand very close to the urinal to take a leak, you HAVE to buy the Vette. If you have to stand back and on your toes when at the urinal, buy the Porsche.

Funny and yet crude.

Lol..............what if your a female driver. Speaking for all those ladies out there, I would love to hear your answer to this question! I quote Car and Driver............." Porsche is just a superior car vs. the Z06 at any price". In saying that, however, I still wouldn't mind driving the Z06 to give you a fair assessment. It looks like fun! Cheers and safe driving.

I am a Porsche guy, but a 500HP Z06 for $65k starts to sound attractive. Steve 99 996 76 930 64 356C 62 356B

Tooo funny...

My brother own a '02 Z06. I will say that at the track the car can keep up with 996TT and is faster than a NA996. It handles well and is not as unrefined as many of you think. Sure the interior is cheap and the precission in steering is not as good as a Porsche, but for the $$$ its one hell of a car. I'm not saying its a better car, but it is pretty good. The thought that the new C6Z06 will have 500HP, large brakes, stiffer frame, and improved interior will be a good bang for the buck. Don't knock it until you try it.

Maybe you are right, but how in the hell would you know that before the car is even released??? I'd be surprised if any Porsche under a $100K will be able to perform with the C6 Z06, but it's just my guess based on the 500HP - 500 lb/ft engine. Word is that the Z06's engine will even have a dry sump. Sounds like an all out performance car to me, but time will tell.

For $65K, it offers much more bang for the buck over the 996/997 NA's. The ZO6 can beat the pants out of most cars, straight line, corners, track, braking, etc. With that said, I'd never trade in my Porsche for any car, except another Porsche.

I believe all previous comparisons were to the 04 ZO6. Having driven a new C6 and having looked at the new ZO6 carefully at the NorthAmerican Auto Show, I think the tide has turned and significantly favors the Corvette. The new (stretched) chassis privides significantly more leg room for the tall driver The shortened length and new body are more attractive (imho) The 7 liter engine is going to provide a ----load of torque which the Porsche doesn't have. The dry sump, high performance engine factory, tire package, spring package are going to give the Vett much more track-worthiness My bet is that the ZO6 will trounce a tt in all but 0-60 (where the tt will need to brutalize its drivetrain) and may be a closer match for the Ford GT. 500hp in 3000 lb chassis with carbon fiber fenders and floor would cost 200K from Porsche. Chevy will probably also stand behind track-driven cars. No contest in my opinion. AS

I find it funny that the only way that Chevy could get 500 HP was to use a big 7 liter engine. Let's see...I get much better gas mileage that the Z06 AND it will never see anything but my taillights. Now tell me where Chevy's improved technology is? It is better, but anyone can make more HP by putting bigger pistons in an engine.

Very well put. Give credit where credit is due. It appears that GM has built themselves a winner.

Anyone can make more HP by adding boost too. Sorry, but you added displacement to your engine as well, by using forced induction -- stress that the engine wasn't engineered to take (hence a different block on the turbo). The new Z06 is a fully engineered product, and an impressive one at that. The technology might appear old-school (pushrod v8), but take a look at the physical size and weight of the new engine and you might be impressed. I'd lay significant money that you'd get trounced by a C6 z06 on the track with equal drivers. It's designed around the 500hp engine -- the entire envelope has been increased. I'd also like to see how your overstressed m96 handles truly heavy track usage. My guess (only a guess) is that the z06 would be much more robust on the track, in addition to being faster.

Who said anything about a track? Chill out! I too am looking forward to taking the car for a ride. I suspect tho, that the car will not survive the heat of the track on a stock setup, but we'll have to wait and see. BUt I am sure it will be able to control the oversteer with several sand bags in the trunk.

The ZO6 is a very impressive package. Why put it down because it's a Chevy? It has twin pump dry sump lubrication, all aluminum chassis, weight saving magnesium and carbon fiber, six piston calipers, titanium valves and connecting rods, forged steel crankshaft and is aero tuned.

As I've said before on this forum, I test drove several C6 vettes and came close to buying one before finding my 996. The vette was a rocket (there truly is no substitue for cubic inches) and handled quite well. The interior quality was SIGNIFICANTLY better than any previous vette. The downside was a laziness in the steering (although better than older vettes) and a general lack of communication between the steering wheel, pedals and you. The 996 is far superior in driver "feel" and I feel the interior is much better quality. Given the Z06 will be a C6 with significantly more capabilities, the argument is not all that different (the C6 would run circles around my 996). I would still prefer the 996 for a daily driver, but as a track car, I would opt for the Z06, without even a test drive. I can agree with many posters that the Chevy is continuing to improve at a greater rate than Porsche, but Chevy has farther to go. I truly believe another few dollars spent in the right areas (interior parts and steering) would have made my decision very different. I think the Z06 would be the absolute best companion car to a 996 in the garage. Chevy deserves some praise for building a near perfect sportscar for the money. Unfortuantly, the dealers will probably try to rape everyone for the first two years on Z06s, but waiting will probably reduce the quality issues which Chevy cannot seem to avoid. Oh, and my wife would kill me if I bought the vette over the 996 cab, but that's a different story.

one thing about the C6 that topgear in the UK had an issue with was the leaf-spring suspension any comments?

Interesting thread on the Corvette to Porsche comparison. Seems to me like comparing NASCAR (vette) to LeMans -- the Vette will burn out. Porsche has proven itself for decades, Chevy, well, it's NASCAR. If it smells like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, (or something like that), well, it's a duck. For those of you who want one, go get one. Who cares? You can't compare this domestic stuff to Porsche refinement. By the way, damn thing is UGLY with the front end -- looks like a goofy Mitsubishi. Just another opinion thrown up on the wall. Gerardo

I was allways luke warm on the way a vette looked but I was in detroit and the z06 was one of the best looking cars there. I have to say that based on the outside it was on par with my c4s. Interior wise it still reminded me of my old IROC. They also said it was slightly shorter than my car. I was surprised to hear that.

How does an e55 compare to a Carrera S?

I own both an '04 Z06 and an '04 40th Anniv 911 and I've driven them at the track extensively. Both are great performance cars but even a stock 04 Z06 will beat most any 911 except a Turbo S or GT2. The new Z06 is even better than mine both in terms of power, brakes and cooling so it will be a forminable track car. In SCCA T1 the Z06 is unbeatable. There is nothing wrong with the leaf springs, the boys at TopGear are a bit out of touch with reality when they criticize the springs. Having said all that I MUCH prefer the 911 because it feels funner even though it is a bit slower. The Z06 has tons of grip in corners but it is very numb to drive. So, if outright performance is goal, the old and new Z06 are better, if fun from the feel and responsiveness of the chassis is a goal, then any Porsche is better. But, an Elise is even funner than a Porsche... but not very practical around town. It is all about trade offs; you have to pick the trade offs the work best for you.

Gents, but are you all sold on the styling? Yeah it has brute power, it may even handle, but man in my opinion they could've done something better. To me it's like the rest of the US domestic stuff, they're either copying the Germans, the Japanese, or something weird with the creative stuff. What ever happened to the US reign on style? Look at the opportunity they had with the GTO! They messed up a great chance. It's looks totally NASCAR. If you're into that then okay, but not for my money.

I like the styling. I disagree that it's a copycat design. I think it looks unmistakably Corvette, albeit with the design moving to exposed headlamp units. I also give Chevy kudos for making the car smaller, and despite a much bigger engine than a 996/997, it's not heavier, a major accomplishment. I think Porsche could have done much better in utilizing modern materials to make the "mostly new" (a very inflated claim, I think) 997 lighter than its predecessor. And if the Z06 engine proves to be reliable (yet to be seen), it will have the 997 beat on that count too, as we're already hearing reports of RMS failure in 997's. Despite all that, what hooks me on Porsche is that great steering, with the wonderful feedback and feeling of immediacy to the driver's inputs. I doubt very much that the Corvette will match that, though I'll probably give one a try someday. Andy '02 Targa

I don't know guys, like I posted in a couple of other threads, the recent Road and Track compared a new Corvette to a new 997S and the 997S was faster. Click here: http://roadandtrack.com/article.asp?...&page_number=1 Car and Driver compared the new Corvette to a new 997 'plain jane' and the corvette was only 0.2 sec faster in the quarter mile. Click here: http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?...&page_number=5 So, I think that the GT3 and the TT are much faster than a Corvette.

Car and Driver has a comparison of the Corvette ZR51 and 997.

it doesn't matter how nice the c6 is... it's still a corvette... and i'm sorry, but I can't help but stereotype corvette owners as not as civilized or sophisticated individuals as european car owners... a corvette is a redneck's dream.. and it always will be... sure it's faster, but personally to me.. i'd feel like a middle class redneck plumbing company owner or some variation of the likes driving any variation of one.. while on the other hand, driving a porsche, and the other european variations of cars i have, i feel like a much more civilized and sophisticated individual, realizing that brute speed isn't everything... in america, it's all about bigger is better, faster is better, etc.. and the corvette idolizes the perfect american car.. no doubt... but me? i live in the country for now... but i don't subscribe to the mainstream american idology, ignorance and culture.... which i've found most corvette owners seem to fit into... as many of you say.. having a porsche isn't just about having the car or the speed.. it's the experience.... pulling up to a nice hotel or dining establishment in a corvette vs a porsche, who do you think will be treated as a more sophisticated, well traveled, and cultured individual?...speed isn't everything.. especially nowadays.. where the hell are you going to use 500hp? i suppose in montana? :> ok.. off the soap box.. just my opinion :>

Bob: I would rather drive a Vette than a Porsche bought from a Ford dealership.

all the power to you then..

I believe we're discussing Z06, not the standard Corvette.

BobPorsche996, Wow, do you know Nick Berry (nberry) from some of the other boards? You 2 are cut from the same cloth. That being said, I do agree that the stereotype of a Vette is a hindrance for me as well, but the C6 has broken down a lot of that for me. I still like my TT WAY WAY more, but the C6 is the first Vette I don't think of as 'cheap'. The new Z06 is going to be a world beater.

Clearly a lot of room for many opinions. It's always nice to be treated well by valet car parkers, but the day I make that a priority will be the last day of life as I know it. If cachet is what you want, than used Diablos or 600 series Benz's are the direction to take. If it's driving satisfaction that is important, then let's stick to dynamics. If it's cost of ownership, let's stick to numbers. Like fine wine, you can always get something a little better for a lot more. True afficionados get the most value they can. The downsides of the C6 include steering isolation, quality of interior materials (better but still GM tainted), styling (personal preference), and the fact it is "American" (deduct 100 points). If you look at the ZO6 engineering, you will be impressed. The chassis is strong, the materials are lightweight and sophisticated, the low weight is striking, the engine building process is near-competition level, the electronic enhancements are extensive, and all dynamics have been addressed in terms of footprint, weight distribution, braking, gearing (62mph first gear), creature comfort is enhanced, and upkeep costs are negligible compared to our brand. I think it will withstand track use- and far better than a 996, and won't need aftermarket coil-overs. Porsche can't stand on any brake laurels after the PCCB fiasco. In 2002, I picked a ttX50 over a ZO6, and (used 550)Maranello after driving a standard tt. If I were to make the decsion again, I'd take the new ZO6. Value, rather than cost, enters into my thinking. But the greatest factor will be the driving dynamic. The reluctance of Porsche to stand behind track-related use is also a factor. Lastly, think about cost. If you buy a ZO6 for 65K estimated and sell it in a year, I doubt more than 20K will be lost. That is not atypical depreciation on a tt with only half the amount of money tied up. (the other 60K gets to stay invested) If you drove a ZO6 for 100,000 miles, 50K might be lost. If you did the same on a tt, it would be far more. I will be very curious about the magazine tests and my first drive opportunity. Personally, I think Porsche has been outdone. Having owned 5 Porsches and 2 Corvettes, I think my ratio is about to shift. AS

I love it. It's an impressive piece of engineering, a lesson for Porsche... Roy

What's most important in a performance car? Is it power, handling, steering feel, braking, mystique or all of the above. The TT without question hits the target on all counts, but we are talking about a car that can easily sell for $140K. The C6 Z06 has the potential to hit most of the criteria with the exception of mystique. A 500 HP engine in a 3K lb car should provide unreal acceleration, and with 500 lb/ft of torque, the Z06 will blow away almost any car from a roll. I have to confess that I've always been intrigued by sheer power, so I'll give the Z06 a hard look, especially if the price will be around the reported $65K. So I suppose that puts me in the red neck category.

it won't be anywhere near $65K for a while. My retarded dealer near here tried to sell me a base C6 for $70K! lol They'll have tremendous mark ups on the Z06's for a while. What's cool is, this car will be available in a couple of years for near orless than $50k.

Before any of you put Porsche to bed for the Vette just wait and see what reliability and long term performance issues arise from the new vette... I think we will see some major problems with it so hold your horses there Porsche bashers.... IT IS STILL A GM CAR AND THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE FOR ME!!!

No way will the Z06 be sold new for anywhere near 50K in a couple of years; there are too many extra's like Mag roof, AL frame, dry sump, carbon fenders, tweeked engine etc built into its raw material costs. Perhaps 60K down the road if it starts at 65K, but they can only make 6,000 or so I've read a year. What long term reliabilty issues has the relatively simple C5 suffered, ala 996 RMS, to make the new Z06 a worry? I think for track fun, this car will be a hoot and wicked fast.

I've heard so many different stories on price - When I looked at a new C6 in Sept. the price was sticker, no more (3-4 week delivery). I cannot imagine the Z06 will sell for over sticker past 3 months after the first real deliveries. In September, the dealer was selling new 04 C5 ZO6's for $10k under sticker.

Given it's aluminum chassis and improved materials the winning criteria for the Z06 will be how good the steering "feels" and whether it inspires confidence in the corners and the quality of feedback it gives to the driver... 3 points Porsche has excelled on and nobody else could manage to capture except the Acura NSX. If they can do it then look out!!!

Facts are facts. The old Z06 was more than an equal to the 996 Turbo at the track and absolutely spanks it at the auto-x. Which means it absolutely bitch slaps any N/A 996 save for the GT3/2. The new Z06 is superior to the 997S and will be competition for the 997 Turbo if they come out with one. The new Z06 is an absolutely amazing car and so was the C5 Z06. The regular C6 is on par with the 997S which means it bitch slaps the regular 997. Now, when image and interior come to mind, that's where it loses big time with me. Otherwise, I have mad respect Chevy's Corvette engineering team. Nice work, fellas!

well... the point I was making was in "feel" not measurable performance... I don't know if it "bitch-slaps" anything... personally I think somebody needs to bitch-slap YOU!!!

What the heck? Wow. Who cares about the new Mitsubishi looking Vette? Looking at the thing makes me want to itch. If you like Nascar, well then go buy the thing. The body styling on the thing look cheap. Okay, it's got muscle, big deal. It look like a lot of horse power wrapped in some plastic. I don't know how anyone can compare the precision engineering and quality of a Porsche to cheap stuff like that. IMO it's been at least 4 decades since they've done anything exciting. Perhaps they should've followed Ford's lead and done a retro-vette -- now the old school Vettes are something else! Lastly, if you look at a lot of the domestic and Japanese stuff they pretty much seem to copy German engineering. I mean if you want to talk about horsepower, most people who can afford any of these cars can have something powerful built that handles well for a lot less. So what are we talking about here? What's this "bitch slapping" stuff anyway. What a dolt!

Two words on the Corvette, 'leaf springs'

Forgive my ignorance, but after watching that Top Gear episode, I am curious as to why exactly are leaf springs so bad besides being an old "technology" ? I mean the Corvette handles pretty well.. so if it's doing the job well why not?

So what? There is a good reason they went with those transverse leaf springs. Read up on it before you criticize it. Oh, and those leaf springs have been good enough for the last 4 years in SCCA T1 to beat all comers, including GT3's which have some sexy coilovers.

I'm done with this. LeMans versus NASCAR. That's it. See ya.

Mine as well buy a dodge magnum...I am sure that bitch slaps the Porsche too!

I should have clarified. I didn't mean you'd get them new for near $50k. I just meant you can get one (on the market somewhere) for that. In other words, used. My point was just think of the car that will be available for 50K: a 500 hp / 500 lb-ft torque, beast for $50K! That's all I meant.

You do realise that the Corvette is a LeMans winner too right? I don't know where you guys get this NASCAR association with a Vette? NASCAR is about sedans. The Vette is a Le Mans winner as wells as an ALMS winner and races in the same classes as Porsches; they are direct competitors.

VETTE = NASCAR? I guess no one has heard of the LeMans winning C5R?!?

You just saved Rennlist for me. And it's like, wtf has Porsche done in LeMans lately? Porsche is more my style than a Corvette, but I can appreciate a car for what it is. Numbers do not lie. Add value to the mix and the Porsche 911 looks sorry. Add prestige, history, sound, and a lil' floss to it, and the Corvette is a distant memory. But, again, facts are facts. The C6 is more than a match for the 997 line-up and if everyone can agree here, the 997s own the 996s. Not to say I don't think 996s aren't sweet, but hey, it's OK to embrace progress. That's why we love cars. They just get sweeter. I recently drove the C6. It's faster than the N/A 996s and is similar to the 997S in speed. Feel-wise, looks wise, prestige-wise, interior wise, sound wise.. 997S just does it for me. But if I see a dude in a C6 at the track or in the twisties, damn right I'll recognize

1. I'm not sure we can question the C6's reliability with RMS leaks being so rampant. The advantage with old technology is that it's tried and proven, so the prospects for better than average reliability is good for the C6 Z06. 2. I read all of the posts on this thread and didn't read any that bashed Porsches. There were lots of very informative posts regarding the Z06's engine and suspension, but I didn't read any bashing. Unless you consider it bashing if someone admires a car that doesn't have a Porsche logo. On the other hand I did read a lot of Z06 and GM bashing. 3. The only thing that bothers me about the Z06 is that it's sold at a Chevy dealership. Although I'm certain that there are good GM dealers out there, the one near me is terrible. The salesman who showed me the C6 was the poster child for what youy shouldn't do if you are trying to sell a $50K car. Tactics that work for selling $20K cars just don't cut it for high end cars. Also, the service area looked like a mess. My local Porsche dealer by contrast has top notch sales and service departments. GM IMO makes a huge misstake selling Vettes at Chevy deaalers. They should be sold at Cadillac dealerships. The Cadillac dealer near me is comparable to my local Porsche dealer in terms of sales and service.

[Reverting back to 12 years old] Well duh. This is a Porsche board isn't it? What did you expect? I'm sure there's plenty of Porsche bashing on www.mullet.com . I mean, http://forums.corvetteforum.com/

that's fine and all but some of us are true car enthusiasts who appreciate cars that are outstanding. The Corvette is American yes.. but at the price, handling and power.. it's a great buy no matter how you look at it. The only thing I can't get over it before was the interior.. now it's much improved. The other thing that sorta is bothersome is the stigma.. which some of the snobbish Porsche owners here perpetuate. The 2 points some have brought up hasn't even been justified yet.. NASCAR ? Leaf Springs? Besides watching Top Gear and hearing them say so, why is it bad? If you're a critic, at least know what you are talking about right? If Hyundai makes a superb car, that handles well, looks great, has awesome power and is reliable.. at a great price.. I'd buy it. It's all about the car. Now of course, the only problem is, every jackass is gonna get one too, hehe. Anyway, the past Z06 and other vettes I considered with even a Boxster S, and both times I've chosen the Porsche. We'll see how the new one stacks up when I go check em out.

Ditto KJM. My impression is that we are car enthusiasts who happen to own Porsches, but in the past or future may have to decide between many makes. At that point brand and "history" are less relevant than the inherent qualities of the product. Porsche is coming closer to the edge of a mistake of resting too much on their aura and not giving value to enthusiasts. This will give success with the crowd that doesn't gain enjoyment from driving but does from Valet-envy. GM deserves a giant thank-you from Porsche enthusiasts because they have raised the bar, and Porsche is going to have to step up. This means we will see a tt with 500+ hp, and hopefully will see better priced true enthusiast cars. It's hard to claim LeMans heritage when the 996 engine isn't remotely connected to the competition engine, and springs RMS leaks randomly. It's hard to keep the hearts of enthusiasts when you don't stand behind PCCB brakes and withdraw warranty coverage if the car is tracked. If GM can add carbon fiber fenders, heads up instrument displays (perhaps not for everyone), and lower weight while adding content, why can't Porsche. It's great to have a choice, and I am eager to see how Porsche responds to the challenge. As long as they can keep their 12% margin without adding content, they will. The major risk is that Porsche will switch to a sedan SUV market to capitalize on their brand name. Hopefully, they will recognize the need to be technological leaders in the sports car world as well. Lastly, for the Nascar bashers. Have you ever driven a Winston Cup car? It's a blast. and don't forget that Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson compete successfully at that race of Champions in Spain (Paris last year I think) against F1, rally, and endurance racers. Gordon has won there and I believe Johnson has as well. AS

I expect mature responses from car enthusiasts and that's what the majority of posters provided. I invite you to go to a Corvette forum, and you'll find that almost of the posters respect Porsches. For your convenience, here's a link: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zeromain

Lighten up a little. I'm just having fun w/ ya. If you look at all my posts regarding the C6, you'll see that I really like it and respect it as well. Poking fun at the Vette stereo-type is just too easy.

Wow, you guys are over-the-top with this Vette thing. Okay, I brought up the NASCAR thing because there you will fiind the grunt horse power all of you who are so high on with the Vette. Personally speaking, I can't stand the NASCAR roundy-round racing and all the cars look the same and cheap in appearance -- hence the comparison to the Vette. Like I said it's itchy and the front end looks like a Mitsubishi. I could care less how much you all admire the damn thing. You can build a racer or even put some money into an old-school Vette that'll blow the pants off on anything they want to put out. As a matter of fact you can do that with a Porsche. So get off of it. As for the "maturity" thing, give me a break fella and don't get your panties all bundled up. As another post put it, it's a P-O-R-S-C-H-E forum with proud owners and admirers of the marque. Whi in the heck has to tolerate someone going on and on about a goofy looking and cheap production of a Vette? I know I don't and I don't have to take your advice and temper my rhetoric. Go tell it to someone who cares perhaps on a Vette forum as you suggest. Quite frankly I don't have to go to another forum and waste my time with others who don't share in my passion -- PORSCHE. Get over it.

Okay Scott. Peace.

So let me get this right, if I admire what GM is doing with the Z06, I don't appreciate Porsches? I own a Porsche but I'm not married to one. I think it's okay if I admire more than one car. But if you believe otherwise, so be it.

I agree with much that you have written but not this! The 911 has it's engine in the back, for Christ's sake! It will never be a technological leader.

I never got the comparison issues between a Porsche and a Corvette. Two distinctly different cars. I would hope a 6 liter, V-8 powered, fiberglass, two seater would have better performance numbers than any flat six Porsche. The Porsche is about so many other intangibles than just grunt. The fact that a 996/997 is close performance numbers wise is semi amazing. FWIW, This topic gets decided by the public with cash every time a new model comes out. If GM could get 100K for their Vette's they would.

one would think a car that costs ~$20K more than the other would flat out beat down the low cost provider...

You can argue numbers like hp, skid pad g's, 0-60 times, top speed, and it still doesn't matter to me. If the vette still looked like a '78 and kept true to it's heritage I would seriously look at a vette, however, to me the car has no soul. Just to be clear, the new Vette will be closer to $70, a new 997 isn't 20k more.

What exactly is the vette's heritage, that they abandoned?

the dude i was responding to included the 996 so the $20K factor still valid..let me also add that a reg c6 is more than comparable to the 997 carrera

Choi, what do you drive?

What does it matter?

$70k for a vette? a base vette is $43k.. i'd say the $43k vette compares to the 997s at half the price.. while the z06 compares to the tt at half the price.. plain and simple.. but it's still a vette :>

Choi, just curious to see what you drive and your experience level, if you have owned either a porsche or a vette or different models of either one. It seems like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder with answers like "what does it matter".

Having 5 Vettes, with the last two being ZO6's (01 & 02) I'm here to tell ya that the car is scary fast...and that was the 405hp model. 500 will be crazy! That being said, I just love the fit & finish of my C4S...absolutly NO comparison (IMHO) I have to admit, lots of guys would tell me they liked my Vette...BUT ALL the girls tell me they LOVE my Porsche...your choice. I choose Porsche... There is NO Substitute!

Rob, it's More like keeping an open mind about things. Read my posts. I've been more than fair in my assessments.

Are Vettes more dangerous if you get into an accident?

I've owned one Vette and three Porsches. I have no experience with the Vette in terms of its ability to protect its occupants in a crash, but unfortunately I do have frst hand knowledge about the 993. I was driving my 993 down a country road at about 60MPH and hit a patch of black ice. My car slid across the road, hit and embankment and flipped over twice. The 993 came to a rest upside down, after a long slide across the road. Naturally all of the windows popped out of the car and I was able to crawl through the driver's side window opening. After I got out of the car, I got a couple of flares from my trunk, it was 6:00 PM and dark, and after placing them at both ends of the road, I went to a nearby house where I called a tow truck. When I got back to my car about five minutes later, there were two State Troppers and a number of people looking at my demolished Porsche. As I approached my car one of the State Troppers asked me to move along and go back to my car. He starred at me in disbelief when I told him that was exactly what I was doing. Believe it or not, up to that point in time, it had never occured to me to check myself for injuries. The State Tropper told me that they had assumed that the driver of the Porsche was probably dead, and they were looking for the body which they believed was thrown from the car. After checking the only injury that I had was a slight cut on my left wrist which I probably got from some glass shards when I crawled though the window opening. So based on my experience, I'd say that the 993 does an outstanding job protecting the driver in a serious accident. By the way, the Insurance adjuster told me that it took him no more than fifteen minutes to decide that my new 993 was totaled.

The reason I asked was because I heard that Vettes were made of fiberglass. I am glad you weren't seriously injured or killed.

How is it fair? You are Korean right? I would like to see in you in a Vette. It is not an option for some people.

I would get a 57 just to have. That is a nice car.

I have a very open mind about things...I can admit the vette will blast past my 997, but when it comes to a track I believe I will outdrive most drivers in a vette... You have been fair and sound like you know your stuff, so I guess we will have to wonder about what you drive and have driven to get your motoring experience.

The Corvette is very likely to be just as safe. The body is not a significant part of that assesment. If you look at a bare Corvette chassis, you will see very beefy, stubby frame members that are bolstered at key points. There is a very substantial roll hoop behind and above the driver and passenger heads. The frame looks very much like an early stock car chassis, except it's made from aluminum, and has fabricated control arms. The engine in front also adds an element of protection. Obviously, I'm a multiple Porsche owner, so you know where my heart is. The C6, and particularly the ZO6 variant, is very impressive. The comment that the ZO6 will compete with a tt is accurate, The C5 ZO6 competes with the tt now (I have driven my X50 and a ZO6 on the same track on the same day, and have chased the ZO6 in my car, and have had the ZO6 chase me), and strongly feel the new ZO6 wii best a ttX50. The new ZO6 is hitting the road with a package that would easily have won a 70's Trans Am race, on the stock tires. I believe it will be faster than a Viper, faster than a GT3, and in good hands will pester a 430 and a Ford GT. Because of electronics, a non-pro in a ZO6 will compete with a non-pro in a GT2. And the ZO6 will cost hundreds of dollars to service, not thousands. That's good for us. If Porsche loses a few thousand sales to Corvette, they will get the message. Personally, I would love to see Porsche further improve the GT3, make it usable in foul weather, and keep the price in line All 996's should share the GT3 block. None should suffer RMS woes.GM has provided a wake-up call. As far as technology, Porsche has used it to offset a compromised engine lay-out. But everything is a compromise. A front-mid layout is not as good as a rear-mid, but have you ever tried to live with a rear-mid? Good for cruising, but not for real-life duty. I don't mind the rear engine, and kind of liked the tossability of the 964C2 before more engineering took that away. Backing out of the throttle in low gear, while initiating a turn induced the most controllable drift I ever experienced. Great fun at an autocross. AS

Had a '57 in '61. Not much of an entusiasts car. Spongy suspension, couldn't stick with euro cars in turns (just thought of a AHealy in a sweep - I tried to stay with in mid west rally, I 360ed, luckily on the upside of the hill). The "bumpers" surrounds around the exhaust, were mounted on the fiberglass. Good as garage queens, but not as good a 57 Tbird and neither as good as my 52 Alpha with 1100cc, overhead cam and deDion rear end. Ahhh... forgive my nostalgia.......

Have your 996/997 suspension tuned and aligned properly and you can send the rear out for pizza anytime you like.... My 996 was awesome in that dept.....

"...The C6, and particularly the ZO6 variant, is very impressive. The comment that the ZO6 will compete with a tt is accurate, The C5 ZO6 competes with the tt now (I have driven my X50 and a ZO6 on the same track on the same day, and have chased the ZO6 in my car, and have had the ZO6 chase me), and strongly feel the new ZO6 wii best a ttX50..." thank you. i thought i was talking to myself saying the same thing, better said by someone who's owned and tracked both a z06 and a tt--x50 no less! i've been seriously thinking about a '01 z06 just for the track...they can be had for ~$27k w/ low miles and won't cost a lot to maintain. the c6 z06 will be red hot and priced beyond what the usual 'vette buyer can spend. my prediction: you'll see p-car type owners hogging up the new z06 and paying well over sticker for the privilage.

What's your point? Your ignorance is astounding.

Yeah, where the hell did that come from???????? That said, An opinionated contributer who doesn't either own/drive the cars has little validity and just adds cannon fodder to the the discussion.

I'm Korean and when have you seen a Korean guy in a Vette?

What a hippocrite. you make fun of americans "ideology,ignorance, culture" Yet you blatantly stereotype. How about this steretype - porsche owners are small boned, glasses-wearing, balding weinies...who enjoy driving tiptronics. Get off it, if you are driving a car b/c of the way it makes you look...I feel very sorry for you. I hope that a 998TT Gt2 will someday make you feel complete. That said, I've been on the fence for the last 3 months. 996 vs 997 vs NSX vs c6/Z06. I've decided to eschew the horsepower wars - to simply get what I want. which right now is the NSX. The vette's however are VERY impressive. The C6 Z06 is poised to demolish everything short of enzo class supercars. I love porsches too, but anybody that cant respect what chevy has been able to do with $65-75K is simply not a car enthusiast. One thing that kept me from buying a 911 already (besides 3 concurrent RE transactions) is the low perception of value. How is it that Porsche can sell a 996 convt for ~$90K yet a short 2 years later has lost almost 1/3 of its value. Porsche has clearly moved into a profiteering mode. Is a 911 worth twice as much as a C6...I guess it depends on how much spare cash you have. While, I personally would not want a C6 for $50K, a Z06 for $70K is very interesting....except I dont care about raw HP. Thats why my new ride will be a NSX, but I can still respect the p-cars and the Z06

I dunno personally I'd take a $50k used 996 vs a $50k used NSX... you get a newer and more powerful car, and it's a Porsche. :-) NSXs do look great tho.

I wanted an NSX way back when. When I was ready for my mid-life crisis, NSX was outdated and not in the same class as the 996. So, I ended up with the C4S, with absolutely no regrets. I know they've upgraded, improved or done something to the NSX. I don't know what since I've never looked back. But, now I'm curious. Have you driven the "new" NSX? How improved is it over the old?

HEY Bob996, Just because some people who happen to be Americans on this forum wouldn't buy a Vette, don't presume we're anti-American. You stated that you live here for now? If this is your attitude why don't you just go ahead anf get the f**k out right now? I imigrated to this GREAT country in 1961 from Cuba and quite frankly this is MY country and I love it. So why some of us (forget "us") for me, I wouldn't and didn't buy a Vette, don't misunderstand, I respect the car, the manufacturer, the people who build it, and most importantly, Americans who lover our great country. On the other hand, I have nothing but absolute DISDAIN for people and socialistic-communistic minded Europeans who FORGET the good past and present our country does. In fact, if you want to equate cars with nationalism, the pitiful French are all too quick to forget, and the Germans, well they forget where they get their freedom. So I SPIT on people like you who makes these types of comments. I find you and your rhetoric to be absolutely offensive. Bring it on chump.

Bob996 - One more thing, bad t hings happen to bad people. 40k huh! I don't buy your pathetic story. Sounds like you're the one with the malfunction.

wow, lots of people have some serious issues, and didn't read my post... as said, it was simply my opinion... everyone is entitled to their own opinion, after all that's what america is about, right? <g> i was simply stating the fact that an american car, what it be, corvette, viper, whatever... imho cannot compare to a foreign car in any aspect but speed and some other minor advantages imho.. it's like the post comparing a ferrari to a porsche.. they are different animals.. both with their positives and negatives... (parts costs being one of them that american cars has the win on as well) no american car can even compare to the craftsmanship of a a8, bmw 7, s-class, lexus, range rover, etc... imho if speed is all that matters, why doesn't everyone just buy a dodge viper? i'm not partial to any specific car types.. and not a porschephile by any means... i'm simply indicating i have yet to see an american car, that has the sophistication of a high end european automobile... i can see that slowly changing.. but at the current time... america still has a long ways to go with refinement of their automobiles once again "imho" to even compete with foreign automakers in this category.. when it comes to bigger engines and brute force, america wins there... and if tht's all you care about.. all the power to you... ever been inside a fully loaded $70k cadillac escalade ext platinum edition (the epitomy of american luxury and refinement in an suv) and then into a new range rover at the same price? 'nuff said.. (stepping down from soap box again) in terms of the other topic brought up.. about my redneck statement... in terms of stereotypes... 4/5 of the states chose to re-elect bush as president.. doesn't that say something about the general state of a large majority of the american population? <g> (keep in mind i'm american as well, so i'm not some foreigner just bashing america.. ) all stereotypes are out there for a reason.. because to a certain extent they are true to a varied degree, but not in all cases by any means..

Well I was originally looking to buy a 95-97NSX-T and than boost the crap out of it. I went to drive an F355 one day and after that wound up driving an 02 NSX w/ Comptech exhaust. The NSX was more comfortable, seemed better put together, had incredibly neutral handling and somehow felt FASTER. Add in the $12k 30k mile svc on the f355 vs the typical honda "oil change q/ 3K miles" and I was sold. The major updates to the 02 NSX are 3.2L 290HP engine. The engine itself received various i/h/e tweaks. Higher quality interior - perf leather surfaces and the option to have color-keyed leather (matching exterior). 6spd trans reworked front end and aero (no more pop-ups) Higher top speed 177 vs 168. While 290HP doesnt sound like a lot, I really love the NSX driving position, comfort, great handling and directional linearity. A true race car for the street. The mid engine layout contributes to lower drivetrain losses so most NSXs dyno ~255 to the wheels. the NSX while dated is still a great looker and I bet its sttill competitive with a 996, 997 or 996C4s (higher weight). Oh another reason I love the NSX so much...a *real* "targa" roof. I love the option for open-air motoring, while not losing the hard top for track use or spirited drives.

bob, you are officially the most electrifying person on this board..........

thanks.. i'd prefer politically incorrect.. i simply state the reality of the situation and could care less if certain people have their *** so uptight, they can't handle it... relax, it's life... no need to be so serious about certain issues.. life is made to laugh at, not to take completely seriously after all, from the previous posters.. we live in america.. the land of free speech <g>

Okay, okay I know its a porsche forum, but here's one more. Yes, the NSX will get pimp-slapped (backhand) by a 996TT, ZO6 etc...but damn I love driving this thing.

Yep, the poster boy for stereotypical characterizations. I think this line says it all: in terms of stereotypes... 4/5 of the states chose to re-elect bush as president.. doesn't that say something about the general state of a large majority of the american population I have to admit though that life must be very simple for people like Bob. You can quickly judge people and pigeonhole them in a second or two.

fast1, if you listen to most any psychologist or read most any book on the human pysche, you will find that characterization to be correct... the human being creates assumptions on people subconciously within the first few seconds of seeing them and hearing them talk.. as goes with most every other encounter in this world... when one sits in a car they might buy, enters a house they might purchase, enters a dining establishment, etc... while it may seem shallow to judge something within the first few seconds, this is simply the way the human psyche works on a subconcious level, whether one wants to believe it or not... and from those first few seconds.. it's a uphill battle trying to change one's mind... having been best friends with a psychologist for several years, i was proven wrong everytime trying to refute this matter... since this is a car enthusiast forum, i'm sure many people relate... when you go to buy a car... don't you know within the first few seconds, if you want to even test drive it? or if you don't want to waste your time.. and if you do test drive the vehicle after not having good first impressions of it... it's an uphill battle, trying to sell yourself on the merits of the vehicle after the first assumption... yet if you like the vehicle within the first few seconds, you try to sell yourself on the merits the car has if you find any faults in it... i'm sure everyone can relate to this car buying experience.. especially when it comes to used cars... not to get off topic, but since you brought it up :> and for you to call me simple, is quite a hypocritical statement.. you don't even know me, so i'd call that a stereotype, wouldn't you? it's kind of like when i had my engine issues.. people made up their minds as soon as they read my posts.. it didn't matter how many receipts i had to back it up or what i said.. those that resd my posts and thought i was making it all up, continued to believe it for weeks on end.. until another well respected rennlister that saw my car at the porsche dealership backed up my story after talking to the service advisor... but anyways this is a porsche forum.. so enuff of this.. btw, that blue lowered nsx with the rims is very very nice... compliments to the owner.. nicely done.. very clean...

if you listen to most any psychologist or read most any book on the human pysche Hey Bob! That's why you keep breaking your Porsche. You're always trying to over analyze it. Stop with the bitching, will you. Go drive the car and leave us alone.

i actually just got back from driving 50 miles.. my porsche is running great.. 1,500 miles on it this year and no problems yet :> and not overanalyzing anything.. simply responding to fast1's comment.. take it as you wish... nobody forces you to read my posts.. just skip them if you would rather not read them, simple as that :>

I used to think like you did bob, until I made a friend with a 350lb Harley-riding texan named. Its easy to cubbyhole my bud as a beer swilling (he is), hog riding (yep) redneck racist texan. However, my bud is one of the most knowledgable and concientious people I know. I can take him anywhere - and he is able to hang. DOes it bother him that his exterior appearance makes narrowminded ppl cubbyhole him? Nope...He's just enjoying all that life has to offer. Sure 95% of ppl out there may be idiots, but the 5%. The 5%'ers have a duty to rise above all the BS and decide things for themselves. Hopefully, when I leave your broken 996 in the dust with my boosted X you'll at least wave - instead of cross the street, clutch your pocketbook, call the cops, hide your (female) children and all the other stuff that weak, scared, biggoted white ppl do when they're confronted with a strong, intelligent, handsome rich black man... hows that for stereotyping?

bob, your post reminds me of this quote: "stop worring about what people think of you. most people are consumed with what others think of them." if driving a porsche makes other people think better about you, then you bought for all the *right* reasons...

Nice pictures Qirex. sniff, I miss my NSX. Sure, it was so slow so as to be off-topic in this thread, but oh, so much fun to drive! kristap

"and all the other stuff that weak, scared, biggoted white ppl do" Is that the same thing that weak, scared, biggoted black ppl do, or aren't there any of those? God I wish I could be a strong, intelligent, handsome rich black man...

I bought my Porsche primarily for its style and performance, but I also like the image Porshe conveys. When I see another Porsche, I know that its owner is a serious car enthusiast who is satisfied with nothing but the best.

fast1, i think that more applies in the 911 area.. after seeing all the soccer moms in cayennes and people that can't drive or care about anything but looking "cool" in a two seater porsche in some boxsters... (not to indicate that doesn't apply in the 911 area.. simply more in the other two variations available seems to be more the case) of course, my standard disclaimer.. imho :> when it comes to pre 97 porsches on the other hand...usually that's a way to show a true porsche enthusiast..

"The best" is perhaps a definition that should be left up to the owner.... My dad will never buy anything other than a Honda or an Acura. He enjoys trouble free motoring, although could easily afford any car out there, including exotics, etc.

As a guy who has had both...which is faster in a straight line (i know, i know). These are track cars I've tested a bunch of 996s, but have driven more miles in NSXs. When I last tested an 02 (w/ h/e)nsx back to back w/ an F355 the NSX "felt" faster. sweet ride either way. I'll prolly satisfy my porsche urge with a 95 sharky gts...TUFF to find though...

The new z06 which is not out yet is supposed to have about 500hp and insane handling. I hear that the new c-6 with the z51 package is as good as the c5 z06. Man, 500hp is insane. Good to see that american cars have improved enough to compete on the world stage. we put a man on the moon for gods sake!!!!! bobby

I agree. I also think that the car you drive reflects your personality to some extent, just like the clothes you wear. I have several African American friends for example who dress impeccably and their high standards in dress carries over to the cars they drive. Each one drives either a new or nearly new high end BMW. I own a 993 with 55K miles and don't even think about selling it. It would be like selling one of my kids.

lol.. well I suppose if GM could put some tail fins on the new Z06 you might just achieve escape velocity... good site on the Vette: http://vorlon.case.edu/~aap8/gallery/c6z06media?page=4

Before I bought my 996 coupe, I was looking into Z06's. As a tall driver, they offer a lot in terms of comfort. Now that the new Z06 is out, the old one's prices are dropping like rocks in a glass of water. I still hold that the Z06 is ALOT of car for the money. It's an amazing out-of-the-box weekend track performer. I was considering it simply for the woo-ahh run factor and the fact that parts are quite resonable. In the end, I fell in love with the shape of the 996. What can I say. I am a Porschephile. C.

I had my first experience today racing a 05 YELLOW regular vette. I have a 2002 996 C2 with no mods. We got to 125 mph on a straight away and I stayed 1/2 car length ahead, till he gave up. We pulled into a gas station, and he asked "what kind of 911 that was?" I said :just your regular 996 " He then said, "I thought my car was faster then the Carerra's." Point is, don't underestimate your Porsche. A second ot two is not hard to make up if you know how to drive your car. His face was priceless. He thought I had a turbo. I will say the interior looks a lot better, as well as the 6spd gear box in the vette. Pretty cool t-tops too.

Not a true test. In your scenario, if one guy is .5 seconds late in nailing the throttle, he can never catch up. The only accurate comparisons are on a track by the same or at least equally skilled drivers. With equal, "average" drivers, I found the C6 is faster. I have an 02ttX50 currently, and drove the C6 (auto) last week. If you did a rolling start from 5mph (to spare the axle hop of the 996) the C6 would be well ahead. If you started from a stop, that gap would be larger, unless you don't care about destroying your 996 drivetrain. In that case, the 996 would initially leap out in front, then the C6 would pass. I anticipate C6 ZO6 will destroy a 996C2, especially with a first gear that will go past 60mph. I think that will be true for my X50 as well. AS

The guy probably didn't downshift. I rode with a couple people in fast cars that didn't seem to "get it" with the gear-box/rpm management.

AS, Please reread my post. 1. Your telling me that if you and I were at a light and I got a .5 second jump on your turbo you couldn't catch me? If you couldn't, then I would be a better driver, right? 2. I never said that my car was faster then the 05 regular Vette, but I did beat him. So are the magazines wrong or do they forget about the person behind the wheel? 3. I stated that it comes down to the driver. So many people and magazines talk about horsepower, 0-60, 1/4 mile times that they forget the DRIVER is the most important thing. My friend has a 2001 turbo, when we go on back roads with a lot of turns I can stay right on his bumper. Why? Does my car have more HP? No. Driver. I wish I had your X50 today. It wouldn't have been close.

Exactly ElTorrente.

One interesting fact about 0-60 times is that it is often possible to be slower from 0-60 and yet not be passed by the "faster" car until well after 60mph is reached. I had this discussion on a message board one time when talking about how I could beat an M3 in a stop light race with my stock wrx. Noone believed me until I pointed out some Road and Track data between a Gallardo (I think) and a GT3- where the Gallardo was faster from 0-60 (and so presumably would easily win a drag race), but the GT3 beat it in time to distance - in fact the Gallardo didn't pass the GT3 until the GT3 was going close to 90mph (based on comparing times in seperate mag issues, not a direct race). Sorry to get slightly off the subject- but the point is that there are so many variables (not the least of which is actual driver ability) that come into play that it's tough to predict outcomes based on numbers alone.

Toothdoc, I did read your post. I think you have a point that a completely inept driver in a fuel dragster could be beaten by an ace in a honda, if the inept guy never hit the gas. I concede. Here's my point. When you hit the gas, you were probably in an appropriate gear. If the other guy needed .5 seconds to recognize that it was a "race", or .5 seconds to downshift, or .5 seconds to consider if he wanted to accept the idiocy of racing on the street, then you could well be over 100 mph before the guy could begin to catch up. At about the time you catch up to traffic or wake up to what you're doing, it's too late for the other guy to catch up. I fail to see the expertise in straight line driving on open highways, but I accept that you are very good at it. Re my X50, my point was only that I understand how quick a 996 can be, and by that standard, the C6 is quick. I have driven na 996's and feel that the C6 would not lose, but for a delayed start, wrong gear, better sense, or someone who never figured out that you need to remain in a lower gear as long as possible (and I've also ridden with some of those) Given challenging conditions, the better driver can give away a lot of hp and finish a lap ahead of the more powerful car. I just don't think a nod in traffic or a surge of acceleration is an accurate starting point for the evaluation. If you do, then we differ in opinion. I'm delighted that GM has raised the bar on sports car performance. A Porsche should be better in all regards for the price it commands. As the Boxster comes closer to the 997, and the vette comes closer to the tt, and the ZO6 beats them all, we are going to have to come up with a new story to justify 20K annual depreciation, thousand dollar tune ups, and near 6 figure purchase prices. Til then we have to kid ourselves that our car is better than the cheaper alternative. AS

Last point- I'm guessing you've never been on the grid with 50-60 similar cars when the green flag drops. Itis amazing the jump a guy can get if there is anything that delays your ability to nail the throttle which doesn't impact him. Ever notice the lead a driver gets on a restart of a Nascar, CART or IRL race? These are equal drivers in nearlly equal cars with a handicap of one guy knowing when he's going to floor it, and the other guy doesn't. These are all expert drivers who are in the right gear and ready to go. Most often the car that falls to second doesn't catch up in one lap, even if its over 2 miles. I don't think the trailing driver concludes the opponent has a turbo. And if the guy you were "racing" couldn't tell your car didn't have a turbo, he clearly knows nothing about cars, a possible tipoff to his expertise. I think I'm done beating this dead horse. AS

Street racing really is idiotic if you're over 16. Take it to a track and see just how good a driver you really are.

True, true... Porshce hopefully will repsond by increasing the 911s content vs decreasing the price. Its all about value ultimately.

Very well written post. I've never purchased a new Porsche, so I've never experienced the huge depreciation that unfortunately some Porsche owners have experienced. Valley Motors in MD has a 2004 40th anniversary Porsche with 1500 miles on sale for $69K. If they are selling it for $69K, I can't imagine that they gave the guy more than $62K for his car. That's serious depreciation in one year. Nevertheless, I still love Porsches. I love the way they handle and they certainly get lots of heads to turn. Are they worth more than $20K more than a C6? The answer to that is yes for those who can afford it. Otherwise, the buyer of a a $50K C6 can console himself with the fact that his car is faster than most 911s.

I guess there are a lot of idiots on this board then C4S. Your going to tell me you have never driven your car hard in the open road? You did buy a Porsche not a VW. I highly doubt the majority of people on here have access to a track. Everyone has been guilty one time or another.

My guess would be that everyone is guilty almost on a daily basis provided that traffic permits it. I'm fortunate enough to live in the country so I'm probably more guilty than most. But as your post suggests, why would I spend all that money for a sports car if I didn't have any intention of dribving it hard. Now of course there's hard driving and there's insane driving. I engage in the former but not the latter.