RMS = Damage or Annoyance?

I'll admit that I'm an on again/off again reader of the 996 board. Please correct or confirm this chain of RMS thought [1] No one knows the exact cause of RMS leaks, thus they cannot be prevented through direct action or maintenance. [2] If you get one: [a] There is a very high chance your engine will grenade. That's why Porsche was replacing engines. If you get one out of warranty - you really should expect the worst. -or- [b] It a leak. Damage is generally limited to fluid loss. Engines were replaced because people who buy $85K+ cars are very unhappy when they leak. Even a little bit. However, If you are used to a drippy 911 you'll feel right a home.

Good question and one that has occurred to me also. I bought my 996 2 months ago and have been learning lots about RMS from this board. My car is an '04 and under warranty but I am now concerned that I will feel compelled to trade it before the warranty expires whether I want to or not. The Prez wants to limit class action law suits and I am 100% behind that and generally favor business. However, this RMS issue seems to me to be the kind of thing a manufacturer should be held accountable for as it is a known design flaw that was not fixed or disclosed. I have heard that PCA operates a goodwill policy for cars that recently left warranty and promptly start leaking oil, but that won't go on for ever if remanufactured engines are the only fix as it will be to expensive for them and they will surely balk at it when a car is 7/8 years old or more but jsut came out of extended warranty. Any lawyers care to weigh in?

A little I just think its funny that your against lawsuits except one's that might benefit you.

I guess my interest is as a potential buyer of a used out of warranty 996. For scenario purposes lets assume that when I purchase it the PPI shows no leak. Also, because someone will inevitably mention it, lets also assume I purchase an extended warranty. Fast forward 3 years of care-free 996 goodness. The extended warranty has expired. Then a leak develops. Remember that the car is now almost 10 years old (for reference think of a 964 today), is this RMS thing devestating, or just a known irritation that goes with owning a used 996?

Grenade...that's funny. NO! It's not "B" either. No one knows the answer to that question. (Why Porsche replaces the engine) Perhaps it is customer convenience/satisfaction.

I don't think the RMS leak is as big of an issue as it is made out to be on the web. Though for people who have it I would say it is more than a minor inconvenience. The repair I believe is around $800. I would doubt that RMS would lead to an engine failure. Most of the RMS failures are early on in the cars life 20k or less. If you buy a used one with no history of RMS, I wouldn't be that worried of it popping up 3 years down the road for the first time. I have '99 with 32k on it, knock on wood, no RMS or any other problems.

Bought a used 2000 996 (8K miles) with about 7 mos. warranty left on it...no leak. Performed 15K service...no leak. Four months out of warranty and 23K miles on the ODO...RMS/Intermediate shaft leak found during routine oil change. Put the car up for sale. Sold the car...under full disclosure...to someone who felt the leak was only an annoyance. To each his own; seems like this occurs a lot...think of all the "casual" owners (non-enthusiasts) who don't even know better. My GT3 is being shipped as we speak. -jim

jb26jb, Thanks for your kind words. I don't know if such a lawsuit would benefit me as I have yet to experience RMS trouble and hopefully won't. I've never sued or been sued in my life. I am against frivolous lawsuits, believe that punitive damages are appropriate in very few situations and think that a plaintiff should bear both parties' legal costs and court costs if they lose a suit deemed "frivolous." However there is a time and place for product liability if it is poorly designed and sold under false pretences. In this case, we are talking about a very expensive piece of kit that may be subject to either catastrophic failure (not sure about that yet) or at least messy annoyance that de-values the car. The issue seems to have been around for a long time. Porsche sounds like they are accomodating in certain cases, it may be our litigous culture that prevents them from being more open about it (they may have been advised to never admit anything). My concern is that concerned Porsche owners acting en masse can bring about change for the better. Otherwise it is one owner at a time against a large company. I love my car, this issue worries me. My 2c.

Isn't the issue around oil leaking onto the clutch if not fixed, thereby ruining the clutch??? The oil leak itself is not a big deal, unless it ruins something more expensive???

If this is the case, then is there a way to create a mod that will allow a 'benign' leakage to occur. Thus allowing for a 'graceful mode of failure' i.e. a drainage hole or deflection plate Perhaps this is the long-term Post Warranty (like adding a chain tensioner...) fix for 996's.

IMO as an owner of previous Porsche the rMS leaks is just an annoying. Knock on wood I don't have one, but my old 930 leaks every where. I think the main problem is that the majority of the 996 buyer are new to the Marque. Most are owners of other cars such as Benz, and BMW and are just use to complaining about minor annoying issues. They think since they paid $85K the car should be perfect. This is part of the reason for a complete engine changes as they do it after the deal can't get it right after 3-4 tries. Its just customer satisfaction. Most of the new 996 owner are not that mechanically inclined and think oil leaks is something catostrophic. What they don't know is that older 911s have always leaked. I have never seen an engine that grenaded from a slow oil leak. Should they leak? Well no you think after 40 years of 911s they should not leak, but its not that big of a deal, just annoying.

Any truth to my clutch drip assumption/rumor???

How's that supposed to happen? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...sPageName=WDVW

No idea... which is why I'm asking... thought I had read that before... The main question I am asking is will the oil drip on anything besides my garage floor?

iterdam I have never heard of RMS actually getting on the clutch. I have put in lots of clutches and looked carefully at mine when it was apart. RMS leaks are slow drips. It is almost impossible for oil from an RMS leak to get on the clutch. If anyone on this board has personal experiance that is different please let us know. I think a RMS leak is an annoyance at worst.

Answers to the quiz: 1. Nope. The cause is known. The crank shaft & the transmission are out of line. 2a. I don't know what "genade " means. But as the slop accelerates the wear on the bearings, the engine slowly degrades. PAG replaces engines because it is a big problem, not just a seal. b. PAG doesn't have that high a concern about finicky owners. They will replace the seal under warranty or replace if alignment is out a certain tolerance. Out of warranty you're on your own. Don't confuse this with a valve cover leak.

Nick Crooks I don't want to get into a flaming contest but if you look at your statement , [QUOTE=Nick Crooks] The Prez wants to limit class action law suits and I am 100% behind that and generally favor business. However, this RMS issue seems to me to be the kind of thing a manufacturer should be held accountable for as it is a known design flaw that was not fixed or disclosed. you didn't say it was just frivolous lawsuits but all class actions that should be limited. While I don't think anyone would argue with you that the people or lawyers who bring frivolous lawsuits should be stopped, but to limit all class actions without regard to merit as our prez suggest and you apparently agreed with in your above statement, would unfairly deprive people with meritorious claims from receiving the just and fair compensation for whatever harm they suffered. As far as the RMS leak goes and a class action, IMHO asbestos, viox and other dangerous products put on the market and knowingly left on the market even after the manufacturer is aware of the danger are cases that are a lot more deserving of our court's time then RMS leaks. Its not like an exploding Pinto, roller over prone Explorer or other beauties that Ford has put on our roads. Just my .02 take it for what its worth, no offense intended.

seems to me not many courts would be sympathetic to a bunch of Porsche owners...

U got a point there

But ahhh.... the costs of defense and the damage from the publicity...

Thanks Torags I was hoping you'd weigh in at sometime. I think you hit the nail on the head which is: Yes this is a leak, however the root cause of the leak (rotating shaft mis-alignment) is significantly more serious that the leaks earlier generations of P-Car owners are used to dealing with (seeping gasket on valve covers, etc.). Once again thank you.

As near as I can tell very few RMS leaks are caused by shaft defects. The neopream type seal itself is just a marginal design. They have come out with 3 to 4 different seal designs and none have completely solved the problem. I think a lot has to do with how the seal is installed. Remember there are a lot of cars that have never leaked and probably never will. Mine was fixed four years ago and hasn't leaked since.

On my 7th RMS and its still leaking. Car's done 41,000 miles and still sounds and goes great. I will live with it since all Porsche will offer me is 50% good-will towards a replacement engine. 1st RMS went at 28,000 miles.