Intermittent RMS leak?

Greetings to all, I have done a search and it seems that it is not that serious of a problem having the RMS leak. I also understand that it has a higher rate of occurence on low mile cars. I purchased my 2001 in October 06 with 11,800 miles. The low miles, one owner with excellent (overdone) service records (oil change every year, several brake fluid changes) was a big + for me. I have put approx 500 miles since I bought it and plan on driving this car. Winter, though, has forced me to store it for now. During late fall, after a fabspeed cold air intake install, I test started thee car, let it sit in place for a few minutes and shut it off. The next day I noted several spots of oil by the RMS area, I cleaned up the spots and they did not return. Before the roads got bad I was able to drive it another 150 miles or so during a few weeks of time. No leak to be seen. During the last couple of months I have started it a couple of times and let it run for about 5 minutes each time, no leaks noted. Yesterday I decided to start it, let it idle a few minutes again and turned it off. This morning the oil spots were back on the floor. Whats up with that? Is this normal for a RMS leak? I would love to drive it around again and see if it comes back but the roads are ice. Thanks for any insight or comments on this, enjoy the games today!

Stop!! You're starting the car and letting it run for 5 minutes and then shutting it off is a very harmful practice. Use a battery maintainer if you are afraid of running the battery down.

Ok, done deal. I will stop and am glad I did it only a couple of times. Why so bad? Thanks Maurice

I just got finished with an advanced RMS search. Found lots and lots more info than on my original non advanced search (more than I care to read). Ii is now clear to me that it has been beaten to death and a high percent of Porsche owners are victims of it. So, at this point I am not going to worry about it and simply keep an eye on it. It is a bit odd that the oil spots have come, gone and come back again (?)

1. Has the RMS been replaced before? 2. Do you have the latest generation seal? 3. What type of oil are you using?

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The car has had the intermediate shaft seal, bearing cover and bolts (updated) replaced at 7000 miles in 2005 (now at 12,000 miles). No RMS (could be same oil leak again?) 900-123-106-30 alum seal ring 900-123-147-30 seal ring 27 x 32 5/40 mobil

I had the RMS replaced on mine in May 2006, and P dealer told me a new generation seal was out. Why not take it to a P dealer and let them take a look? Please let us know what went on. John

Thanks John, will follow up on that when the winter loosens its grip Ludwig

Where are you?

Spokane Wa. Will add to Avatar

Why Bad? When you first start your car thats when a lot of the wear happens. Oil is not up to temperature, oil is still in the sump and not lubricating all the parts for the first few seconds after starting. It will take 10 minutes of driving just to get your car up to the operating temperature.During this time when the engine is cold fuel/water vapor will creep past the rings and seep into the oil. This will only be reversed after some time at operating temperatures and the contaminants will be burned off. So next to starting car for 5 minutes short trips are a bad thing also as the car doesn't warm up properly.If the metal around the RMS doesn't get to expand as it would at normal operating temps I could see this causing a small leak.

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It states right in the manual to NOT warm it up by idling. It states to start the car, and drive right the way. The only thing to watch for, is not to high rev until warm. I wouldn't be surprised if you were creating hot spots in several parts of the engine, by idling when cold. On the same token, I picture a much more, all around uniform warm up, when you drive away immediately (slowly at first, of course) And what is the point of having a (badly) warmed up engine, but cold tires and a cold transmission? You would still have to (EDIT: "should") drive smooth and slow for the first while, anyway. Why go against what the engineers that designed the car recommend right in the manual? John

PS: and about the Oil Temperature, do not worry, the synthetic oil (Mobil 1 here) is perfectly fine all the way down to minus 40 Celcius.

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So are you saying that when you first start the car cold and its idling above 1000rpm I should NOT warm it a litlle till the idling is back to normal position at about 900rpm. Are you positive???

I would say yes. I've always heard it's best to start any car and drive off, not letting it idle. I just insure I keep the car between 3000-3500 rpms for the 1st 5 minutes, the no more than 4,000 rpms until the coolant temperature is close to it's correct operating temp. I also make sure I don't run the rpms too low when it's cold, i.e. I keep it NLT 3,000 rpms. I just believe it's better to baby the motor until it's warm. Also, in the cold, it takes longer for the oil to get to it's optimal operating temp. My M3 used to have a shift light that directed you where to shift until the engine got warm. I can't state song and verse of where I've read all of this, but I thinks it's important.

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Ludwig, Does that mean you had an engine replacement? Investing in a set of winter tires to run it in the winter is not a bad idea. I enjoy driving my p-car in the winter just as much when its dry out. I also have driven it when it has less than 3 inches of snow and it handles just fine.

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This could very well be my problem with the intermittent oil leak. I will leave the car alone until I can drive it, get a battery maintainer, and oh yea, I greatly appreciate both the information and proper care tips given obviously I have much learning to do.

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That is exactly why Rennlist is so great! There are a lot of very knowledgeable people here and, best of all, they are willing to share that knowledge.

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Hey Chao, As far as I can tell, no engine replacement. I have not read much on just replacing the intermediate shaft seal, you would think that this would mean a new engine as well. The work done included; Sealing ring F interm shaft replaced Transmission removed/cleaned Clutch touched up Engine cleaned The parts used; 8 10 x 50 screws 1 hex nut M8 x 1 1 shaft housing 1 alum seal ring 3 seal ring 27 x 30 (fly wheel removed + reinstd) 3 torx screw 6 x 20 4 screw hex-HD 6 x 35 This work was done Nov 05 and since 5000 miles have been added. The car runs super and had no signs of a leak until this posting. I do have the number of the dealer (Barrier out of Bellevue Wa) and mechanic. I will call on this for some further info, if I can get it. I have thought about driving in winter but I live on a bit of a BIG hill and with snow/ice it can get touchy even with my 4x4's. Spokane does not use salt. Normally we do not get that much snow or rain around here, that moisture stays west from here. I was counting on doing winter driving when the roads are good/dry, plenty of chances for this in Spokane. This year happens to be a bad snow year, and the crap won't melt . Figures, I bought the car in late fall. Ludwig

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I spoke to a master Porsche mechanic here in TO and warming up the car before driving is recommended. Especially in cold weather, the idling should be under 1000rpm before driving. And for those who store their P cars in the winter time, good idea to run the car for about 10 mins every so often.

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I don't mean to seem like a *****, but that is just terrible advice. The only motive I can imagine for a mechanic to say this is to drum up business. Or maybe it's some kind of holdover from the oil-cooled days. No credible resource out there, car manufacturers included, recommends idling a cold car for ten minutes and then shutting it down as a form of 'maintenance'. And while I guess I would wait until my idle dropped, that happens very quickly in these cars. I start it, wait no more than a few seconds and then drive. Like the manual says.

do what it tells you to do in the porsche owner's manual, how much simpler can it get i don't know.

The problem with warming up the engine to operating temp before driving (or not; if it's stored) is that all the other components are still cold (transmission, brakes, tires, etc...); ideally you want everything at optimal operating temp around the same time. I start her up, buckle up, turn on the seat heater, radio then I just drive. Total time from start to drive: maybe 40 secs. I keep the revs below 4000rpm until the engine is at operating temp.

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Hey Bruce, This comes from a very reputable source and respected Porsche mechanic. Since you're also in TO, you may want to think twice before supporting this theory before knowing the source.

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With all due respect, mechanics fix things. Engineers know how they work. Occasionally, you'll find one that can do the other, but it shouldn't be assumed. No need to think twice. If you've got some kind of ace up your sleeve about the source, then by all means play it. Otherwise, it sounds to me like another case of a physiotherapist pretending to be a doctor. Blows me away how EVERYBODY thinks they're smarter than Porsche...

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WOW...sounds like you're taking this personal. Ever thought why the maual would state no warming up required. Maybe they are trying to be enviromentally correct. Just want to be clear...what I wrote is is not advice, just information. Use it or dump it.

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Not remotely personal, though I thought your "think twice" comment was a bit heavy-handed. If it was just "information", I shouldn't think that the location of the mechanic in question would be very relevant. I'd be happy to quote a couple of mechanics too, if you like, living just as close and having the opposite opinion. It's your car, so do as you like. As for being environmentally correct, I'm going to put my money on properly heated catalysts to do that job. Modern cars are never dirtier than at a cold idle. And that is not an opinion.

Hey Bruce, Where do you take your car for service? No hard feelings and here is a link on the topic that was previously discussed. Interesting feedback. https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=50226

The biggest contributer to engine wear is not the temporary lack of oil, but condensation in the cylinders and valvetrain. This moisture can more quickly score the pistons, cylinders, valve guides, etc faster than an inadequate supply of oil will. Moisture in the oil is also a major source of bearing wear. Unless your car is stored in a warm, dry place, the worse thing you can do is to start an engine and run it for a few minutes and then shut it down. Not only does this not remove mositure in the engine (and exhaust system), but the amount of moisture will increase as the engine cools. To reduce the accumulation of moisture, your engine should be run for at least 15 minutes longer than the coolant temperature takes to reach 190F. Obviously, letting the engine cool in a climate controlled garage will help reduce moisture accumulation. It is also a fallacy that it is better to let a car sit in storage versus starting it and running periodically. Unless the car is prepared for long term storage (quite involved), while the engine is sitting, moisture is accumulating and oxidation is occuring. And, like a cancer, this oxidation will continuously grow and eat away material. Periodically running the engine will remove the cancer and will coat the surface with protective oil. Your transmission fluid will also be warmed up by idling the car in neutral with the clutch engaged.

Just had the car serviced at Callas Rennsport in Torrance CA. Tony (who has won at LeMans and voted #1 mechanic with #1 team at race) specifically told me to start the car and drive off without warming it up. I'm no mechanic, but I'll listen to a guy with a resume such as his. I truly forget the reason why he said to do this, but it was the first thing he mentioned when giving me some history and information about maintaining my car. My $0.02

What a thread! Six pages on starting a car? Geez... The idea of 'warming up' a car is premised on some things that aren't true of cars anymore... fuel mixture is managed for us now, engines can oil themselves almost immediately down to ludicrously low temps, and so on. Meanwhile, warming an engine up under load ensures that it warms up more uniformly. Warming it up while sitting still idle doesn't. And when your block is made of aluminum alloy rather than cast iron, I figure avoiding uneven heat distribution is a good idea. Then add the bonus of warming drivetrain fluids up at the same time as the engine - and that transmission case is also alloy, btw - and it's a pretty strong argument, IMHO. Let's face it, the only fluids that are going to warm up while idling are oil and coolant. Everything else is cold until it starts moving. The manuals for our Rover, Mini and Toyota all say the same thing... start and drive. I get my work done at Engineered Automotive. Hardcore Porsche guys with great credentials, and they treat every car as if it was being race-prepped. They aren't cheap, but I love the service and quality of workmanship. No hard feelings here... you have to try harder than that to **** me off! Just ask... oh, never mind..

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Like I said in my previous post, your transmission fluid will warmup just fine while idling. There is also no more or no less chance of hot spots whether you are idling or cruising. Both the oil and coolant see to that. I am not arguing whether you should warm your engine up by idling or by driving, just that there is little difference as far as the engine and transmission are concerned.

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Yes. The idea is not that it hurts your car to warm up via idle, but that it is *not necessary* to warm up your car by idling. This actually goes back to days of carburetors, when you did have to warm up in the driveway or the motor would stall when you stopped.

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Given what you've said in previous threads about the cooling system, I find this hard to reconcile. Anyway, this is one of those situations where, given the wildly opposing points of view and conjectural support here on the internets, it seems smart to default to the manual. And the manual does not say you MAY drive off shortly after starting the car. It says you SHOULD. Good enough for me.

I knew it was bad, but I didn't think it would be that bad!!!

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"You should drive off shortly after you start your car" How is shortly defined? 1min, 2mins......?

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Here is the precise quote from the owner's manual: "Do not let engine idle to warm up." It then goes on to say you should keep it under 4200rpm for five minutes. "Do not..." seems pretty clear to me. Personally, I'm with the 'as long as it takes to do up your seatbelt' gang.

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and wants you drive away as soon as you can after engine start. Cold engines immediately upon startup emit lots of pollutants. Fuel mileage is real poor too cause of course car stationary and engine running very rich. Even so I like to wait until my car engine's secondary air pump shuts off before driving away. Engine is no where near up to full operating temperature but in the short time (less than a minute in most cases) the engine does have time to gain a little heat. Sure, after this short warmup I still adhere to keeping the engine loads down and RPMs below 3500 and not too low either until car driven long enough engine (and rest of drivetrain) has had plenty of time to come up to full operating temperature before giving the engine the whip. If engine warm enough secondary air injection pump doesn't kick on then I drive car away as soon as I'm ready. Sometimes this requires I fasten seat belt sometimes I get seat belt fastened before I start engine. Sincerely, Macster.

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Hey Bruce? Is a precise quote like a true fact? Sorry, I couldn't pass it up.

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Okay, you got me.

Nice thread and lots of good reading! My $.02: Be nice to the car and it will be nice back (Usually!?). I use the temp guage for reference: I drive immediately after starting and use light throttle, keep the revs between 1500 and 2500 for a few blocks. Keep below 3000 until the temp needle is at the first mark, below 4000 until it hits the second mark and do not use full throttle or yellow/red line untill at 180 (nl temp). Somehow, the motor and transmission tell me when it's OK to push the car harder.......