Reverse engineer a 911?

I was in Europe recently and had the pleasure of passing a truck loaded with brand new Chinese cars, didn't see many on the road but have heard they will be here in the US soon. I don't know the brands but have heard that their general approach is to reverse engineer a proven western design, even heard something about a $7k knock off Ford Explorer. This got me thinking about the barriers to reverse engineering or copying a model as complex as a 911. I thought this would make an interesting discussion and help some of us understand why these cars cost so much in the first place and have rarely been imitated let alone equalled in desirability. Perhaps some of our more tecbnically knowledgeable friends could weigh in?

No one is going to copy the 911 because they would not be able to sell it. Aside from the obvious patent infringement issues, the Porsche brand is so strong that the market would not support another rear engined 911 look alike. The Chinese do not have to do the engineering themselves. In this era of globalization, they merely have to buy the engineering and manufacturing knowhow. They will always be able to make something at a lower price. Their labor costs are miniscule when compared to all other car manufacturers. It's obvious that they are looking at the automobile industry from a bigger picture. They can produce a sports car. The question is will anyone buy it? You know the answer. No Porsche owner is going to jump ship and sell the car for a Chinese sports car.

Reverse engineering was a popular myth way back when Japan was first getting into the electronics and car market. Everyone was saying that the Japanese were symply reverse engineering western technology. Now, look at whose selling a ton of cars and is a leader in electronics. Korea is moving along the same lines. Eric has it right. They don't have to reverse engineer anything. They can simply buy the technology. As China slowly and belligerantly takes steps towards commercialsim, it can someday become a major competitor in consumer products including cars. Who would ever have thought 20 years ago that Toyota, aka Lexus, would give Mercedes Benz and BMW a run for their money?. Sports cars, well, who knows really? The NSX looked like a commercial competitor fo a while when it first came out. But, I think the Germans and Italians own the corner on upscale sports cars. The Japanese, on the other hand, own the corner on the low and mid-range performance/sports cars.

well just look at clothes as of lately.. armani, prada and all of the high end designers for the past 100 years.. as of the past 2 years have moved out of manufacturing all in italy to recently moved to making their clothes in china.. the quality is the same.. and when people say "buy american", might as well say "buy chinese".. since no successful american company manufacturers in the US anymore.. it's impossible to compete with $8-$40 an hour vs 10-40 cents an hour wages.. hell, best buy sells DVD players for $19.95 from china.. with a HUGE profit.. know how much that would cost a western civilization company to produce and sell with all the middlemen involved? it's just a matter of time.. right now the middle class is slowly disolving.. middle class, now means having an $8,000 debt and no assets.. as each day goes by, it's the poor getting poorer and the rich gtting richer.. and the demand WILL be there when these car companies can't make a profit selling mass quantities of high end vehicles anymore.. porsche may even consider outsourcing to china in 10 years and selling a low end boxster for 1/4 the price and still make a huge profit.. who knows... china has a HUGE population and it's growing astronomically as we speak.. and as long as things keep going as they are.. manufacturing will be pushed out of europe, usa into these asian, african, russian countries that can do the exact same job for 1/80th the price.. just a matter of time..

I think the reference to Korea is interesting. 20 years ago the Hyundai was an absolute rock bottom brand, it is now approaching if not already mainstream. The new Sonata looks just like an Accord and Evo even has their sports car in its long-term fleet. Are they reverse engineering? I suspect a little bit as they have not introduced anything unique on their own. Anecdotally, I have a 14 year old daughter and to her the brand is indistinguishable from Honda or Toyota - she wants a Kia Sportage as her first car. As to the earlier question on who would buy it - nobody would at the Porsche price point but I think that misses the point. If a Chinese 911 was made available for $25 k it would sell - not to Porsche owners but it would find a market amongst younger and less affluent buyers. Can it be done?

I think the first problem is that Chinese don't recognize international patent law, or it's rarely enforced. One of the problems high tech manufacturers have in China, is that factories very often make competing products. With many items outsourced, Wilson, Prince and whoever tennis racquets could all be made in the same factory. So, if a company brings over a new manufacturing technique, it immediately becomes "everyone's" technology. I look at high end stereo equipment. Brands like Shantling were laughed at when they first hit the street. Today, no one is laughing at Shantling, or any other Chinese manufacturer. You wait, 10 years, China will a sports car that will be a pretty amazing machine, might even kick it to Porsche.

it can be done, and will be done in 5~10 years. by then, we will have all the thread discuss Chinese 911 vs. German 911. just like we have the Sti/Evo thread all day long.

OK, but what are the technical barriers? For example just because you know the crank case is aluminum with nikasil liners does that mean you can copy and manufacture it. Is the machining expertise there to work the heads, crankshafts etc. in the appropriate metals. Can key supplier components like Brembo brakes just be copied? Will it be reliable if it has comparable performance. More anecdotal evidence from a Dutch friend is that the Chinese cars sold there have performed very poorly in occupant protection.

I've heard they'll be here late this year. They're expected to be ilike the Korean models a few years ago. Cheap and not very reliable or well made. But they're expected to learn from thir mistakes and they'll become a world player. Prices are as you expect - $6k-$8K.

Interesting thread. I did a bit of poking around on Google. Look at the last 4 paragraphs of this article: "And some automakers have complained that Chinese companies have stolen parts and patented ideas to make knockoff cars, some of which, they say, are among those Shelburg wants to import. Nissan says the front design of the Sing SUV, built by Great Wall, was stolen from the Nissan Paladin, which is built and sold in China. Chinese officials rejected a lawsuit by Toyota claiming that Geely's logo was copied from the Toyota "T" logo design. The front end of Geely's Solo and Merrie look similar to the front of a Mercedes-Benz C-class. And Honda has filed a lawsuit against Hebei Shuanghuan Auto claiming it produced an SUV called the RABO S-RV that is a dead-on copy of the Honda CR-V."

I think the REAL question is: would the Chinese 911 have RMS problems?

hey maybe i'll even buy one if the engine doesn't blow up on the chinese version

so this is the chinese X5: http://www.sinocars.com/sinocarnews/...1015078781.jpg http://cimg.163.com/auto/2004/metalz...41121/5761.jpg

I'm not technical but what would be so hard to reverse engineer a Porsche? Would one ask that question if you substituted VW for Porsche? It's just a car, not a Robot.

The irony is company's use China for cheap labor and now China is using right back..

the x5 looks like it's using the x5 body, the new m-class front end.. the wheels.. yikes.. i think that's their own $2 creation though.. http://cimg.163.com/auto/2004/metal...041121/5761.jpg

Washington DC - you have asked me the same question back, is a 911 just a car? I am not so sure that knowing how something is done is the same as being able to do it - perhaps the Germans have mastered certain metallurgical or machining skills that require deep knowledge, experience and expertise. That is the real question I would like to get at. Undoubtedly they will have it down in 50 years time as that is the way of the world but what about 5 years or 10. Do they possess the engineering infrastructure to replicate a car like this or would their incremental cost in engineering, tooling and need to source outsourced parts result in a per unit cost that would be uncompetitive?

if they come along, they will very likely to have 10yr/100K miles power-train warranty, so bob, u will have a better shot than porsche

Well, there is a lot of software in these cars too, and that is much more difficult to reverse engineer than physical parts.

Hey, if they can make an X5 software they can make a Porsche.. Chinese folks go to engineering school too..

I've been to several of the largest, now closed, US Steel plants and several have mentioned the sale of their assets(steel manufacturing equipment) have gone to the Chinese, some times stolen.. I say this because I believe the Chinese are working hard to find their niche in the market by any means necessary.

You make it sound like some nasty James Bond evil villain plot! China just has a HUGE populace and a very strong economy. As such, they need to make 'stuff', and that requires steel; Lots of it. As for their future sports car development, I'm sure they'll be competitive one day.