First track day in a 996 a bit rough, looking for tips

Background * I have been to 4 other BMW High Performance Driving Event days with my '01 330i, and felt pretty comfortable and competent at my last one (April '08). * All of my driving events have been at Pacific Raceways in Kent, WA. First Track Day in a 996 * I was at Pacific Raceways on Friday, 7/10, with my '02 996 C2 * My 996 is a bone-stock setup with new PS2s (~500 miles on them) and a new 4-wheel alignment The Result... Hmmm * I felt almost like a rookie out there. * I wasn't happy with my driving. * My lines were all messed up *The 996 pushed way more than my 330i (more power + rear weight bias, presumably). * The 996 seemed to get knocked off line more easily with track irregularities * Is this because of a lighter front end? * Is a stock 996 C2 less firmly suspended than a Sport Pkg 330i? * I don't think my shifting was right. * I didn't feel I used the 6-speed well. * 5-speed 330i vs 6-speed 996 seemed to mess me up Any Words of Wisdom? * Any tips on driving a 996 on the track? * I need 'em 'cause I kinda' sucked on Friday

IMO it's tough to give advice after the fact. Sounds like you didn't have an instructor riding with you; next time, have an instructor in the right seat. That will help more than 10 pages of recommendations.

post alignment numbers tire pressures F & R (remember it was about 85 out which makes the ground about 100+?) Stock US standard ? or stock ROW ? dont beat on yourself, how many miles have you driven the 996... is it new to you? what did the instructor tell you - what did you tell them (assume there was one right?) advise.... there is an autocross in Bremerton this weekend - more seat time !!! more seat time !!! more seat time !!!

You have to be more deliberate about driving a good line in a car that understeers. Make sure you're at a speed where you *can* turn in, and if your line is right, you can get on the gas quite early and rocket out. Definitely, the technique to drive a rear engine car is different than a front engine car. You'll also be rewarded once you've mastered more advanced techniques - like trail braking and throttle steering. This will help keep weight on the front wheels and give them more traction. +1 for having an instructor, especially an instructor with 911 experience. If you didn't have an instructor - well then shame on the organization. No one with only 4 days of experience is ready to be completely solo.

Don't beat yourself up over a rough day at the track where you didn't meet your own expectations. My advice is to try it again w/ a good instructor and get back to the very basics: 1. follow an experienced driver to get a feel for the correct line 2. always do your braking in a straight line as you approach the turn 3. slow down enough so you can late-apex each turn 4. gradually increase throttle as you unwind coming out of the turn Don't try to be fast - try to be good, then perfect before you try at higher speeds. Spend your time feeling the car until you have a high comfort level and remember, you're having FUN!

Coming from tracking a BMW (e46 M3 in my case) I can tell you many aspects of driving a 911 quickly are much different. Luckily the first vehicle I tracked was a bike and I found over time that falling back on many of my bike techniques helped me to become much quicker in the 911 than I was in the M3 (though it took about a year to get to that point). Smooth, precise inputs are a must in an 996. You can't man handle the thing, correct mid corner etc like you can in the BMW. You really need to be aware of contact patch management in the 911 as the throttle on and off effect it much more in the 911 and in very drastic swings. Hang in there and don't be frustrated. Pick up the Keith code Twist of the wrist books and give them a good read. Pay special attention to the contact patch managent talk. Andy

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Where are you experiencing push? Turn in? Mid-corner? Or track out? Where are your tires making the most noise? Just as a guess based on my experience with new 911 drivers: I would wager it's your braking technique. Either (1) too much brake too late or (2) an abrupt pedal release. Either situation results in horrible push. Dive bombing a corner will result in no friction available for turning (aka push). And releasing the brake too quickly will transfer weight to the rear resulting in a smaller contact patch for turning (aka push). And usually, dive bombing a corner will result in 1+2 since you have to release the brakes abruptly to make the corner, which equals retarded levels of push. For most corners in a 911 you should be applying gas at the same time you move the steering wheel - unless you are trail braking of course. Smoothly apply the gas until you know you've make the corner (usually around apex) and then foot to the floor at apex. To facilitate this, I typically instruct new 911 drivers to brake a tad earlier and roll off the brakes smoothly to allow a smooth transition to power at turn in . Not to drag the brakes, but to release smoothly. This allows the car to remain set during the turn. And then I yell GAS GAS GAS until track out. Below is a short video illustrating what I mean. FWIW, I actually found that my 911 would turn in BETTER than most other cars I've driven on the track. Alignment helps a lot. [HD works] What do you mean by "knocked off line"? Smoothness is the key (in any car really). You have to be smooth or you won't be fast. This applies to brakes, throttle and steering. But in a 911, you HAVE to use the gas pedal to get around the track. Oh, and don't lift in a corner -td

I agree with most of the above, but if you were my student I would probably tell you to relax, try not pushing so hard, and just get more seat time. 911s do take more to get used to, and even more so than e46s, the driver makes a big difference on the understeer situation. They turn in very well under trail braking, and respond more lively to throttle inputs in comparison. I would go so far to say that they're harder to drive. One other point, I really think it's a shame how soft the suspension is on these cars stock...

Nice Vid Tom !!

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I did have an instructor, and he was actually pretty good. I don't think he had any Porsche experience, though. I definitely could have used some of the advice folks have responded with on Friday!

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Stock US tire pressures: 36 front; 44 rear. Alignment, front: Caster @ 7.95 & 7.81; Camber @ -.01 & .04; Toe @ .09, .09 & .19 total Alignment, rear: Camber @ -1.09 & -1.01; Toe @ .09, .09 & .19 total I have a little over a year, and ~5K miles on the car. Not really that new, but my first track day with it. He was focused on what line I was taking, mostly. There were a few times I didn't brake sufficiently, so he also had me ensure I slowed the car down in a straight line. In turns 5, 6 & 7 (if you know PR), the focus was on sooner, and more gradual, steering inputs. Good advice, all of it, I just had difficulty making it happen! I'm not gonna' make that, but am considering the final track day with BMW CCA. I'd like another shot at it!

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I did have an instructor, and thought he was pretty good. I think someone with 911 experience would have been even more beneficial to me, considering what I was struggling with.

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Great comments, Andy. Thanks! What you describe - smooth inputs and large swings in response based on contact patch - really matches what I noticed. Thanks for the tip on the books, too. I'll have to check 'em out.

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Interesting point about the suspension. I wasn't very smooth with my steering, I don't think, which made it worse, but even when I was smooth the car seemed to over-react to road undulations. Not sure I'm ready for the trail braking just yet, but I can see how that would definitely work on this car.

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Definitely on track out. Compared to your video - which was GREAT, BTW - I seemed to be getting a ton of push with just slight throttle. I didn't notice that at all on the video, as I was watching accelerator action on track out. Yup on #1 (at first); definitely Yup on #2. That might explain my lack of turning friction. Wow, I'll have to try that. My impression is that the car would push off the track! Guess I'll have to manage that weight a bit better! Track irregularities causing the car to respond, side-to-side, more than I thought it should. Seemed like a soft suspension. Great points - thanks for the tips and the video. I'll watch it a few more times.

thanks for replys just for my own knowledge, what class did you put yourself in (beginner / intermediate ? ) the tire presure seems a bit high - anyone else care to comment on that one ? This is on PS2's and hot day out (track temps over 100 my guess) the camber in front is basically zero...with the US standard I ran those numbers and had some great straight runs (although I was trying to turn - bit of push!!) and I could get the back upset and have it come around quite easy if I wasnt very smooth (which I wasnt a couple times) because of the imput + body roll + lack of slowing down in the head = spin rule (autocross is a bit more forgiving in this event than PR would be) my last run, last month was by far my best ever. I have to say, I really slowed down...I know it seems backwards, but I was overdriving and over compensating and trying way to hard...I really wanted to be fast.... but when I slowed down, I actually was fast....this is no substitue for more seat time and I hope your next run out will give you a better return on your money/time investment - for me, I hope I remember that last run this weekend and build on that not spread my legs and WEEE all over what little i have learned

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Good list. I need to work on my smoothness and these points. I don't think I was pushing it too much, actually. Nothing stupid; never got into any trouble. I just wasn't happy with the result.

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I was classified last year as intermediate based on last year's track day. I was in "C" group and held my own OK. Just the stock numbers. You're right, it was a warm day. Sounds familiar. I can see how it would be much easier to be smooth and not rush with more seat time.

Getting some more negative camber in the front will help with the push. But as many have commented here, seat time will also. You've come from a car that has a dramatically different weight distribution. I've watched a number of drivers who are much more experienced and talented than I am jump in my car from their front and mid-engined cars, and have to adjust. They adjust quickly because of their level of talent, but the first lap or two gives them a challenge. Give yourself time.

I go to track days with my brother, who just happens to have a 01 330 with the sports suspension. We trade cars of course. I know what you mean on the understeer and the overdriving. In comparison, the BMW is far easier to drive to its limits. As you will soon learn, that is part of the 911 addiction. Learning the right speed and right technique to get the car to turn in and then, when you are able to get to the apex with the right speed and car attitude, the ability to get on the throttle with a heroic application of throttle to the end of turn, well, it's truly great stuff.

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Yikes! 36/44 cold will make those PS2s sing like a banshee when warm! They don't really like over 40 HOT when on the track. You can expect ~10 lbs increase in tire pressure with the PS2 from cold to hot. Running them at 46/54 isn't necessarily unsafe, but very far from optimal. You will find it more enjoyable if you start them at 32/32 next time, and then bleed them down to 40/40 [or even 38/38] after your first session. **be sure you fill the tires back to factory specs when you leave the track!** Next alignment, you should try to get another -.75 to -1 degree all the way around. It will make the car a lot better. It might eat tires faster though. On my car my alignment specs were: Camber Front (R/L) -1.99 / -1.99 Caster Front (R/L) 8.0 / 8.0 Toe Front (R/L) .05 / .05 Camber Rear (R/L) -2.48 / -2.52 Toe Rear (R/L) .17 / .17

My first run in my car I had the tires pumped up too... I figured that was pretty high and would get some feedback.... so the tread rating on the PS2's is 220, and the Sumi ZIII's is 300... I need a little more air in the sumis than a PS2 (RIGHT?) higher number = harder tire = softer sidewall from what I have been told - will will check them and try for about 40/42 hot do you take a pump to the track or just fill up at the gas station on the way home or at home once you arrive? -

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You don't want any tire to get too hot and have them eat the middle of the tire away. You want pressures that give the most even contact patch. The easiest way to tell is with a pyrometer. FWIW, I ran my Sumis on the track a few times in the wet and then when it got dry. I ran them at just under 40. They were fine at those pressures. But in the rain, they were actually quite crappy Also, at our track, we have trackside support with compressors. I'm sure someone at your DEs will have a tank. -td

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents worth in although I agree completely that getting a good instructor to help at the track is much more valuable. To those I contradict, sorry. I could be wrong. 1) Do not brake in a straight line. I teach students on their first day on the track to brake (at least lightly) through turn in. It is very important to keep a little weight on the front. This will really help rotate the car before the apex. 2) Each corner is different but think in terms of a geometric apex. Not early, not late. It's a nice point to adjust from. A late apex seems like the right thing to do if the car is pushing but it's not. If you can, you want the car rotated without taking a late apex line. 3) Try carrying a little more speed and maybe a higher gear. A slow in, fast out approach will make the push worse. At least give it a try. It should allow you to be a little lighter on the throttle in the second half of the corner which will reduce your understeer. So, brake longer, lighter and though turn in. (Hard and late can come later) Focus on getting the car rotated as much as possible before the apex. Apex where it's right for the corner. Late is seldom the right answer. Carry a little more mid-corner speed. Exit with as much throttle as you can while managing the push. Push is not all bad. At least it's easy to compensate for. Finally, forget the 330. I have a 650 I took out on the track for fun earlier this year. There is nothing like a few laps in a (non M) BMW to make you love a Porsche. Jim

There is no substitute for seat time, and more seat time. Tire pressures were way to high, a good starting point would be 31 psi cold.

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Interesting comments on tire pressures. So you set them up so differently on the track (same pressure F/R, lower pressure) vs normal driving (significantly higher rear pressure)?

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I can see how this might help me gradually let off the brake, too, in addition to helping the car rotate better. I was wondering about trail braking with a late apex. They don't seem consistent with one another, which I think is what you're saying. If you're getting the car rotated right after turn in, you're not gonna' hit a late apex! I'm a bit worried about coming in too hot, though. For me, I think I need to slow the car down, then gradually come off the brake to keep it smooth. I think I'm doing things too suddenly and I'm afraid a late braking might make that worse. I'm not ready to drop the 330 just yet. I enjoyed my track days with it much more than this last one with the Porsche, which was a bit disappointing. I need to get back out there again. I want to like driving the 996 more at the track, not less, that's a big reason why I bought it. If that doesn't work out, a switch to an M3 may be in order.

I don't want to try to diagnose your issue over the internet, but the answer to understeer is to have more weight on the front tires... I remember taking a student (and friend, is the only way I drive student cars) out in his 911 where he was complaining about understeer at the end of turn 1 at VIR, all it took was coming in hotter, I was actually getting some oversteer... I've known a few people who've switched from M3s -I'm actually one of them- to 911s, the 911 is more fun. Don't judge it from one track event, your first back to the track at that. It is more capable, but more importantly FAR more satisfying to drive. I will voice my opinion on the suspension one more time though, I think the stock suspension is far too soft. You're also not running a lot of camber, about 1.8 degrees front and rear makes the car more balanced but you don't NEED to mess with anything other than getting more experience, in my honest opinion.

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No need to come in too hot. You have a softly sprung car which is good for grip but not good for transitions so minimize your inputs. Brake a little longer, a little lighter and through turn in. As you are dialing in steering and coming off the brakes you should feel the car rotate a good bit more as it's rolling over on it's suspension. Once your suspension is set roll through the apex and begin applying just enough throttle to feel the front start pushing a bit. You can correct by either unwinding your steering ever so slightly or feathering the throttle a bit. 996s are very fast is stock form if driven right. Remember, driving fast is all about managing weight. In a car without much platform (race speak for soft) you need to move your weight around carefully. If you are not careful, it's easy to allow your weight to work against you in a soft car. Think about moving it to where you want it slowly. Slow being relative of course. Does that make sense? Discussing driving on the internet is very difficult.

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Thank you for posting this. Your points one and two make sense to me. I am struggling with the third point because coming in faster seems to make the turn in to apex understeer much worse. Do you mean that I should be coming in faster in order to trail brake to the apex to help the car turn in?

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If you brake (at least lightly) through turn in you really shouldn't see understeer in the first half of the corner. Understeer at turn in is almost always the result of braking in a straight line and/or taking a late apex line. In that case you are coming off the brake which takes all the weight off the front right when you need it most. The longer and harder you brake through turn in the more oversteer/rotation you will get early in the corner. The reason I suggest trying to carry more speed at the apex (mid-corner speed) is to reduce the rate of acceleration you do between the apex and the exit. In other words, don't over slow the car at the apex and stand on the throttle to power out of the corner. Remember, minimize your inputs. Even modified these are very soft cars. Again, just my 2 cents. I could be wrong. Jim

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It does make sense - and this is valuable for me, even if it isn't "live". In some ways, being able to read about it and think about it is effective. Of course, if I could go out there and TRY some of this stuff right now... that would be ideal!

yea, great day to go out there..... just watch out for the Nitro Funny Cars running down the strip...

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The time loss between turn in to apex is THE hardest time to find! Turns out that tEveryone can push on the gas pedal down from apex out, lol. But, we're talking 10ths of a second per corner. I agree with JimBs overall assessment, but I think it applies to people with more seat time. In my experience, the average new driver shouldn't even contemplate rotating under braking as they don't have the core set of driving skills needed to turn while braking. That is, Green/Blue (beginner/intermediate) students often have a hard time repeating the actions needed for each corner, i.e., brake to the right entry speed (not too early, not too late) and turn in properly. IMO, new drivers need to learn car control, consistency and rhythm before they try trailing off the brake in order to get that 10th back. -td

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FWIW, that's not really true. Three of us are running nearly identical 997 cup cars with Alex Job Racing this year. We meet with the engineer and go over data between every run. By far the most important attribute in picking up time is how early and how aggressively you get back on the throttle. The time between turn in and the apex is not really a factor until you are down to hundredths. I agree that a new driver should not be thinking about aggressively trail braking to get the rear end loose to rotate the car but that's not what I was suggesting. By just braking a little bit through the turn in you greatly improve the rotation of your car in the early part of the corner with no drama. I'm not sure who thinks it's a good idea to teach new drivers to only brake in a straight line but it's a terrible habit to get into. I've always taught novices to brake through turn in. It's not a difficult skill when you combine it with longer, lighter braking. Again, just my 2 cents. Jim

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I see what you are saysing, but this really doesn't apply to novices. That is, aggressively on the gas does not necessarily mean fast through a corner for a novice driver, it virtually always means overslow on entry. With the extra grip they can be on the gas quite early and aggressively. This can actually be 10ths or more in every corner. Most new drivers lack the kinestetic sense to know the right entry speed. Also, most lack proper seats and harnesses - so their bodies move in relation to the car which can create false "data" about grip. -td

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I agree with all of that and I hope I didn't imply that a novice should focus on getting on the throttle way early. I was just responding to your comment about where to find time. Personally I think a novice should drive a corner the same way a racer does only slower. (BTW, I don't mean to imply that the OP is a novice) I've never bought into the novice line vs the expert line.

From a "I have been to the track a few times, but I am still a novice" perspective, it is hard for me to figure out how to downshift and brake into the corner as JimB is suggesting. Getting confident in my heel and toe would allow me to pick up considerable time, I suspect. Being lame at that aspect, I think I have a lot of time to gain from turn in to apex.

You'll be fine, the Bimmer is a lot more tossable in my experience. The combo of rear engine and big rear tires takes some adjustment, but sounds like you're half way there. Check out the Racing forum too, good luck!

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+1.

Driving a rear wheel engine car is completely different that your BMW. It takes time to learn the weight transfer of the 996. Patrick Long recently had an article in Grassroots Motorsport on how to drive the rear engined 911.

I would suggest applying Jim B's ideas out on a skidpad ASAP. Mount up a set of worn tires, grab some cones, and go drifting. There's not a better tool or exercise for car control than a skidpad. Easy to setup, you can create slow or fast corners in addition to driving around the circle learing to control the car using just your right foot in conjunction with unwinding the wheel. With lots of safe runoff room, try carrying more and more speed into a corner and just let the car coast thru the turn. You can learn lots from these types of exercises including letting go of the wheel if the rear end jumps sideways on you. Your confidence will expand dramatically as you gain car control experience. It's the first exercise I'm going to do with my 996 Spec as soon as it's completed.... Oh and get some camber in that car....