1st time at the dealer - tips/advice?

Hey everyone - I'm going to the local p-car dealer today for the first time to look at this '02 C4S ( http://chambers.porschedealer.com/pr...ntoryid=377970 ) as well as compare it to a '03 C4 Cab and a '06 Cayman S. This will be my first car shopping experience, so was wondering if anybody had any tips on how to handle the salespeople, etc. The $54k asking price seems grossly off, but maybe I just don't realize how much haggle room there is (I know a rennlister just picked up a similar one for $48k and somebody's asking $45k for his). I'm looking forward to actually sitting in a Porsche for the first time. I'm gonna be like a kid in the candy store, just gotta make sure I don't get overwhelmed and spend all my lunch money . . .

you're a nervous dude aren't you? my ranking out of the three cars you listed in order of desireability: C4S C4 cab Cayman S The C4S has a thug quality the other cars just don't have.

the c4s also has PSE as an option and I think the better exhaust is a definite plus. BUt don't let dealer see you are excited. Play it cool...

Quotes source post: 5244258

Ben - Hells yeah I'm nervous! I've been upsold from a $30k '99 C2 to a $50k '02 C4S in two weeks, and that's just from Rennlisters/6speeders. I can only imagine what'll happen if I walk into the dealership unprepared. I've been looking at the C4S thread and have to admit it's sexy looking. It's definitely become the focus of my search. Besides the wider body, the rear bumper slats, and the horizontal reflector strip, any other aesthetic differences to compare w/ the C2 at the test drive today? I think the C4 is as wide as the C4S, so I'll have to ask if they have any narrow-body C2s in inventory. . . Btw, love your silver C4S. Thing looks like it's poised for flight, even when it's parked.

lol Besides the wider body, totally diff front and rear bumpers, a huge reflector strip that differentiates it from pretty much every water-cooled 911 out there... what other things to look out for? I believe the C4S comes with standard full leather (which is an absolute must-have if you decide to go for the narrowbody which INCLUDES the Carrera 4). I really wouldn't upsell you above the 996 C4S. After the C4S, then make the huge jump to a 997 GT3 or something when you get bored. Just have the edmunds.com pricing as a ballpark and go from there depending on the condition of the car and how much you like it in person. Good luck, man. Don't be nervous. This is supposed to be lots of fun. At least it was for me, but then I did the private buyer thing and flew down to SF so a real adventure that I won't ever forget.

bitterazn be sure and do alot of web research before going into the dealer. I was about to make a huge mistake on the first P-car I looked at because I wasnt properly prepared. My buddy quickly took me to ebay just to prove how far off the mark the dealer was with the car I was initially looking at. I actually wound up buying my used 03 C2 from an exotic car dealer in Wilkes Barre, PA and probably saved at that time 5-7k off similar vehicles in the Boston area - something to again research and consider. I'm in Hopkinton and work in Cambridge so hope to see you around after you make your decision! regardless, you won't regret it. I've had mine for 22 months and haven't looked back!

The 996 C4 is a narrowbody. She didn't get a big butt until she became a 997.

Quotes source posts: 5244258, 5244505

Will keep an eye out for the bumpers. Believe me, it's harder to figure out than you think for a novice, since everyone here has their cars so modded out it's tough to figure out what was stock . . . Yup, on 996 C4. I had been confused, since I talked to the sales rep at the NY auto show on Saturday, and he said the C4 + targa were wide-body as well, but I guess that's 997 only. Speaking of which, the 997 GT2 they had on display there looked absolutely sick. That being said, I'm not sure I wouldn't start getting seriously tempted by Ferrari in that price range when I "get tired" of whatever 996 I end up with! Would love to do the private buyer thing, unfortunately I work 75 hrs a week so travel's tough to schedule. Maybe if things stop going bankrupt and the markets calm down . . .

Yea i just wouldn't ever do the gt2 because at that price range, there's much better looking, more fun out of italy. don't they make a 997 Carrera 4 and a 4S? Which would mean the 997 Carrera4 is also a narrowbody. the 996 widebodies are wider than the 997 narrowbodies, but slightly "thinner" than the 997 wides.

C4S all the way. I think you are referring to Uber's car @ 48K...that was a nice deal. There are plenty to be had. I bought mine over the phone out of Naples Fl. dealer with full CPO. I "haggled" a ton and stood firm. By the end of the day, it was mine. If you haven't done so already, do a preowned search at www. porsche.com and search nationwide. Last week, I was talking to my buddy about his friend wanting to grab a P-car in your area and told him to advise his buddy to research here on RL. Could you by any chance be Phil the dentist's buddy? J

As usual, I think Ben is high!! You could get a lower mileage 2001 or possibly a 2002 911Turbo for only around $5k more. The only differences esthetically is the Rear reflector, that makes the C4S look a little dated IMO and the Turbo intakes that make the TT look mean as **** IMO. The turbo has full leather same bumper and everything else as the C4S has standard as well as the WAY better GT1 engine, hollow spoked wheels (50% lighter) and about 100 more HP and 150 lb-ft more Torque, not to mention the Turbo marque (if that sort of baddass legendary name means anyhting to ya)!! 911 Turbo is probably the best bargain right now of any car on the market for what you get, as well more modifiable than any car on the road. For Around $800 you can flash the computer and be up around 480BHP and 500lb-ft. I've had both and HIGHLY recommend the Turbo over the C4S. To ME it's like moving from a Porsche to a Porsche SUPER CAR. Raw Numbers: TT: 420 BHP / 420 lb-ft 0-60 in 4.2 / Quarter Mile 12.6 C4S: 320 BHP / 276 lb-ft 0-60 5.1 / Quarter Mile 13.7 PS. A 2001 Turbo with 40k miles in excellent can be had for around $53k PPS. If thug quality is what you're looking for, then buy a Cadillac Escalade. These aren't thug cars.

Quotes source post: 5244579

for the 997 all the 4wd models are on a wide platform

Quotes source posts: 5244505, 5244650

I agree that at this point, the 996TT is probably more bang-for-the-buck than the C4S. I'm not sure if the TT comes with "thug quality", though...I'm even less sure that it's something I'd want!

Quotes source post: 5244650

Hehe, I think the turbo may be more than I can handle. I do like the turbo intakes, but before this my only driving experience has been an automatic '94 Sentra. I'd either break a TT or it would break me. Another issue is a bumper to bumper extended warranty, which I think may be nigh impossible on any '01 model, not to mention a turbo. That being said, my friend's dad half-jokingly offered me his '01 TT w/ the x50 upgrade for $70k. Thing has 2k miles on it. Was seriously tempted to just immediately shake his hand, shout "DEAL" and run away w/ the keys . . . Thanks for the advice though, will add the TT to the list of things I'll be looking into!

Quotes source post: 5244600

Yeah, uber seems to be seriously enjoying that car . . . Not a whole lot available nationwide on porsche.com, but Herb Chambers was definitely on the high end. Hard to say what the different options are worth, looking through the forums it looks like PSE is maybe worth $1-1.5k or so? I unfortunately am not Phil's buddy, but will be keeping my eye out for Pcars in Boston. I don't think there are all that many, I swear to god this city is like 95% BMW 3series.

The TT is most definitely a bargain. I won't argue that. I considered selling my C4S several months ago to get an '03+ TT, until I drove the 997TT which is many times improved over the 996 and realized I just couldn't live with laggy engines which is just a part of turbo life. I also prefer the 997S package over the 996TT. I find the 996TT to look even more dated than the C4S with the ugly wing in the back. But, yes, consider the 996TT, but again, this is upselling you. Why stop there, right? Cuz there's always better.

As an owner of of both, let me dis spell your worries. They Turbo's are very easy to drive, as they both have PSM which will save even the most novice of drivers from trouble. As far as the power increase, the power is there if you want it, and not if you don't. In comparison between the two, if you drive them both, the Turbo just feels how the C4S should feel power-wise. Aftermarket warranties WILL be tougher to get on the Turbo, so THAT is one thing you can factor in. However, if you are buying from a Porsche dealer OR a private party, you are going to get the same warranty on a CPO'd 2002 Turbo vs. a 2004 C4S. Turbo has the same 4WD system as the C4S and is another factor in making the car actually SO ez to keep control. Do me, nay YOURSELF a favor, drive a Turbo AND C4S, along with all the other cars BEFORE you make your decision. Take it from a guy who's owned both!!

Quotes source post: 5244789

1. I notice NO lag 2. The wing on the TT is vastly better for looks IMO, another aesthetic I forgot about. 3. Why stop at the TT? Because it's the best bargain for peformance in your price range of ANY car on the market... A few thousand above a C4S. So, YES, STOP at the TT.

Blitter, I live in Fenway and have owned an 01 C4 for a couple of years. If you need any help with things just drop me a line [email removed] . I'm just around the corner from Herb Chambers. -Shawn

Quotes source post: 5244815

You must be driving like a pu$$y cuz all I did was punch the throttle in 3rd gear onto an on-ramp in the 997TT and the turbos needed a split second to wind up before it went GO. C4S's non-winged back looks better than the TT rear by far. The 996 C4S is the best looking 996, period, save for the GT2. If this guy is OK with lag, let 'em get the TT. The 996TT just isn't for me thus my recommendation for him to stop at the C4S and go for the real upgrade that is the 997GT3 with the REAL GT1 engine.

TT is hell of a bargain right now, but weren't you afraid of people thinking you were being spendthrift? I think the turbo lag will be fine for a newer performance car driver, it's about as powerful as a standard carrera before the boost builds, and you can chip your way to a lot of power once you're out of warranty, more upside. Best advice: stop typing, get out there and drive a few different examples of each trim, C2, C4, C4S, turbo, heck drive a Cayman S while you're at it. Pick the one that moves you, you'll be able to live with any one of them.

bitterazn, Here's my 2 cents on my latest buying experience: Like you, when I first started looking, I was thinking a regular C2 in the $35-40K range, but I love the looks of the C4S and it comes with most of the options standard that I wanted. After I got the C2 out of my head I started looking at the C4S. I saw some in the low $40's, but there was always a bit of an issue with them at that price/miles (usually around 50K+ miles at that price). So, I bumped up my budget to look for something CPO'd in the upper $40's. I've used several venues to look for cars: Rennlist, autotrader, cars.com, Porsche.com, ebay. Ebay - I was able to use that to see what cars were actually selling for (if in fact they did sell with a winning bidder). I also used that in conjunction with Autotrader and Cars.com to see what companies were selling cars and from there I would go to their individual web sites to see what else they had. There were a few of reasons I got my car so low (my opinion). One was that the previous driver used it for Driver Education (DE), and talking to the dealer, that appeared to scare some people off. I figure, it's a Porsche and should be able to take some good driving, in addition, I have the 2yr/100k mile warranty. Another reason was that the dealer screwed up once and put the wrong mileage into the system when servicing the car, then carfax picked it up and now carfax and the car are off by 3,000 miles. So, it looks a bit strange, but I got all the records from the dealer and the dealer is in the process of straightening it out with carfax (that's stated in my purchase). The third reason is that the seat belts are yellow, seat backs are yellow and the center console (from the shifter back) is yellow. So some people don't want that. I'm not driving it every day, so I don't mind. I knew that the market was soft for the C4S, usually about $3K below what the price on Porsche or other sites are. What I saw is that most places would have the car for a while, then after a certain amount of time, the price would be reduced by about $2-3k and then you're hopefully able to negotiate another $1.5-2K. When I made my offer, I wasn't even aware that the CPO window sticker for my car was $54K. So I actually did my negotiations based on $49.9K and it worked out for me. Sorry to ramble on so much, but I hope that helped. Go for the C4S!!!

Quotes source post: 5245542

Uber - Yup, this car's listed at $54k on the website, but I see on AutoTrader that it's been freshly reduced to $52k. I think it's fair value in the $48k range. Btw, isn't this your car? http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...00&cardist=817 For some reason it says newly listed. Maybe you drove it away so fast they don't even realize it's off the lot!

If you do the edmunds TMV thing on an 03 C4S, there is a $5k option for an "upgraded suspension" is this the PSM? Do most have it? Makes a big difference on the bargaining power of edmunds! Thanks, Mike

bitterazn, Correct, that's my car still on Autotrader (although with 1,000 extra miles now). I did check the dealer's official Porsche site and it is no longer listed there. Eric

TT if you got the $$

Quotes source post: 5245374

I've never heard anyone complain about Turbo lag on a 996 or 997. It's never been a problem for me, and I only notice it WAY low down in the RPM's, like 1500. Pickup is INSANE on my car. If im not mistaken, you told me the C4S was the slowest variant and was saddled with the weight of the 911 Turbo minus the turbo's speed and an M3 would waste it in any race....so cmon now. Not sure what you mean 997 Gt3 with the "REAL" GT1 block. If you're saying it's any different than the 996TT's Gt1 inspired block, it's not. The Turbo's rear-end looks better and more updated to me, as well the wing is FAR better than the standard 996 rubber accordion look. Here's a comparo, this is obviously opinion. Let the others decide which look they like better. One last thing, as an owner of both, had I been ready to buy my 1st Porsche now, and could spend $55k, even if I was a total novice, 1st time Porsche owner, I would DEFINITELY skip the C4S and go RIGHT for the Turbo. I'm sure ANYONE who's owned both would agree. I dare you to find someone that doesn't!!!

Just to chime in - Went to go see them in person. Didn't have time to feel them drive (had to run back to work, ugh), but did hear the C4S idle. Man the PSE makes the thing sound like a bat out of hell. I didn't hear the other cars, but I just know I want my car to sound like that . . . Impressions on the '02 C4S vs. '03 C4 cab vs. '06 Cayman S: had to say I liked the C4S most The C4 cab had the hardtop on. I think all the reasons I've read about why people don't use their 996 hardtops are wrong (hard to store, annoying to put on, etc.). The chief reason has to be that it's UGLY. It doesn't fit perfectly and so it looks like a very clunky helmet. With a hardtop out of the question, the idea of driving in Boston weather w/ a ragtop was pretty unappealing, so I think I'm eliminating the cab. The Cayman S I had to admit was pretty tempting. It was in mint condition, the interior was much more up to date, and I know in my head (if not my heart) that the Cayman S drives really well. That being said, it looked like a Boxster w/ a lid and I'm telling myself that I can modernize the 996 w/ a nice modded nav screen or something for ~$1k (no idea if that's true). arr0gant, for your sake I sat in the '01 TT for a little bit. It was beautiful too, w/ contrast stitching on the leather, intakes ready to suck in low flying birds, etc. But I will say my tastes are a little milder than most here, and I wouldn't want a permanent wing on my car when I'm putzing around Boston at 20 mph. The cumulative effect all seemed a bit . . . much. In general, I don't think I could justify another $8k or so for performance I'll never fully appreciate. For context, I'm looking at this '04 C4S ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...dZViewItem#img ) and I think it's hard to justify going back 3 model years + likely pay more in insurance/extended warranty just so I could get turbo pedigree (when I don't even know how to drive stick yet!). I appreciate everyone's input. Will update after test drives this Saturday.

Quotes source post: 5246543

I think these last paragraphs say it all. Having the power vs. being able to enjoy only a small percentage of that power at a cost changes the decision making. In my lowly C4S, I can LEAVE this guy I know with a (chipped and exhaust'ed) 996TT in the canyons. I've left this same guy in my E46 M3! Of course, on a straight/freeway race, it's over. Having a fast car and being able to drive it fast (aside from going straight) are different things. Some out there buy the 996TT for the badge and most likely to compensate for some shortcomings.

If you're not looking for super performance, the TT just may not be for you after all. I'm sure that C4S is hot!! Good luck!

Quotes source post: 5246740

It's quite a slippery slope. I originally was looking at 996 C2, but after researching and seeing the C4S--had to have it. Would I have bought a 996TT if I could have? Probably--the potential to chip and get ridiculous power is soooo tempting. Not much can touch it for th $60-70k range. But, that is 20%+ more than the C4S' being looked at here. All of a sudden, you've gone from a $40k car to a $65k one. I will agree, that the law of diminishing returns hits a steep slope after the 996TT, though. In the end, the wifey set a ceiling on my budget and I was scraping the stucco for sure on the C4S. Either way, good dilemma to have....enjoy your new car, hopefully it'll be a C4S! j/k. p.s. you may want to practice driving stick before jumping in for a test drive--doubt that the sales ppl would appreciate a burnt clutch.

Reading this with some amusement...boy are people polarized into 2 camps: TT vs C4S! First of all, beauty is subjective and some will prefer the busier "boy racer" looks of the TT rear end over the more classic Porsche look of the C4S. An M3 smoking a C4S?...I don't think so. My brother had an '03 M3 and vs my '03 C4S, it just couldn't do it...especially when cornering was involved. Yes the TT is faster, but how many of us can even come close to exploiting that everyday or even on a track for that matter. Take ANY box-stock NA 996 to the track, and unless you're Walter Rohl, there is more than enough power and speed to scare the crap out of you. By the time I grab for third gear, I'm already over the national speed limit fer chrisake! A C4S with PSE will sound a thousand times better than a stock TT...turbos have a very muted sound...kinda like a Toyota Camry . All kidding aside, they are all great cars. Porsche makes so many variants of the 911 so that there are flavors for every taste. Pick your poison wisely...it's addictive!

Quotes source post: 5246921

No, the 2002 C4S the OP referenced is listed at $54k and the TT can be had for a thousand or 2 above that. All I was saying was you'd be a fool to buy that car when a similar, lower mile TT can be had for the same or a couple thousand more. I'll say it ONE MORE TIME. THE 996 911 TT is the GREATEST value on for any car for what you get, ANY CAR!! You get a legendary Porsche with SUPER CAR performance in the $50's. You get a bulletproof Turbo GT1 derived engine that is modifiable and bullet-proof up and past 700BHP. Same goes for the whole car being able to handle that power.

Quotes source post: 5247155

Couple of snips from E46Fanatics when BenChoi was an M3 owner and dissed the C4S all over the place. The 1st snap was after I responded to him when he said the M3 was the far better looking car and way more aggressive than the C4S. He was saying he'd so much rather have the 2004 M3 than the 2002 C4S. Second clip he's telling me I have no chance against an M3, when all I said was it would be a good race.

Quotes source post: 5244147

bitterazn, As others have said, the price seems high and I'm not sure this car has the PSE ( porsche sport exaust ) option. I thought that all PSE options included the dual tip exausts and I don't see them on this car. As an ex-bostonian, HC dealerships are always a bit overpriced IMHO so you have leverage here and you should use it as there is lots of inventory out there. I have the same car without the sport seats and no PSE. If you send me a PM I willsend you the 2002 ordering guide with pricing you may find useful in your search/negotiations. demosan

PSE does not include standard dual tips. We all like to defend our own ride. I drive a c4s for example and love it most of the time, but you would be nutz not to move to a tt if the price of admission was only a couple k. Learn to drive a turbo and the so called lag is negligible in real world.

Quotes source post: 5247357

Just to add some fuel into the fire, I'm not sure the pricing comparison is entirely fair. For example, just using the Porsche website search, it becomes pretty clear that the one I went to see was pretty overpriced. Other '02 C4S's w/ CPO are in the high $40s to low $50s (I'm not sure if the difference is regional or due to options). A search for '02 TT's w/ CPO are in the high $50s to low $60s. So I don't think the step-up is just a few thousand - it's more like $10k (20%+). arr0gant, I'm not sure if you're referencing examples like Hungry4$$$'s '01 TT offered at $53k? While that's a great car, it's a bit different from what I was looking at. Namely, it's a year older, w/o CPO, and a private seller. I think comparable '01 C4S's go for low $40s on AutoTrader, so again the step-up is ~$10k. Not saying anything about whether the incremental performance is worthwhile, just commenting that I'm not sure it's no-brainer "value."

arrogant, i don't appreciate you going back and stalking my posts from way back from another forum and bringing up yet AGAIN here at rennlist. it's real nerd style and that is why i will never engage you beyond www cuz you're flat out weird esp for a mid 30s dude, but no question i'll back up what i said. -the e46 M3 can keep up with the 996C4s in the straights, in the turns as their performance stats are in the same league just as both of these cars can keep up with a 996TT or whatever else faster car out there becaues it comes down to the driver. -i would never pick your '01 x50 TT over my c4s; if i wanted a 996TT i'd have one just like many others here. your interior (lightly optioned), your bone stock exterior is absolutely boring to a guy who likes his cars visually modified. i wouldn't be happy with the visual part of your car both inside and outside as that is a larger factor for me in my ability to love a car than outright hp/tq which the TT has more of than the n/a c4s and on top of that, i don't like turbo engines as it IS laggy period. for the $ i spent to get my c4s to where it is today, man, i could easily be in a nicely optioned 997S model with aerokit, but that's not my thing right now, timing was off, i'm not patient (no regrets) -more often than not people will certainly pick a 996TT over the 996C4S no question so get your panties unruffled. i need the entire package to be great and not just in the power dept. we all have a 911 for the cohesive package, right? else we'd all be rolling on leaf springs in the back. -it's absolutely not uncommon to call the 996 c4s the best looking of the 996 lot even when up against the beautiful gt2 which is my fav as it is rwd and as an awesome factory aerokit and not the weak ducktail in the back of the regular TT

Quotes source post: 5247917

Yup...it all comes down to the driver. The advantage in the C4S and TT, is that the awd is so sure footed and composed, it makes it a breeze to drive fast in the twisties. I also think that the TT's are such a bargain now because of the enormous depreciation hit they've taken due to the huge amount that were produced. 996 TTs were available for a full 5 model years, while the 996 C4S was only around for 3.5 model years IIRC.

Quotes source post: 5247917

Wierd esp for mid thirties dude why? Cause I call you out on your BS? I just like to point out your hypocrisy. You told me how you disliked C4S's over at the M3 board because they were too slow, had the RMS issues, had "0" chance of beating an M3, among all the other things you said. Then you bought one a couple months later. ****, i've seen you tell a member here how ugly his wife is, when he proudly posted a pic of his new Porsche with her in it. NO RESPECT, NO CLASS, HYPOCRITE! I've seen you do it time and again. You pick out all the things about someones car that you don't like and drop a nuclear bomb and wonder why they hate you. To me it's comical. To say things like, the TT is too laggy, who wants all that power, your interior is too bare, the duck wing is ugly? Where do you come up with this ****? Have I ever said one thing bad about any of your cars? Has anyone? Then why do you continue to? I think after the 1st 50 people put you on ignore list, you calmed it down a little. Then it seems as if a lot of people just kinda gave up and started to except you for the douche you are. I just find it funny how you continue to spew your blather and when it comes up to bite you in your ***, you get all defensive. You are who you are, and im sure in real life you're just as "douchey" as you act on the board here at Renn. I think we've just come to expect it.

Bitter, I agree 10G's is nothing to sneeze at, but with your original posting of 54k the price for an early TT is commensurate. But the more you shop, the more you will find varying prices and varying options. The best thing to do is take your time. The right car will come along. They are all great cars.

Quotes source post: 5248338

It's called live and learn and it's obvious I am a porsche fan, but still to this day i assert as on day 1 that the E46 M3 is in the same performance class as the carrera. period. and i often refer (fondly) to my carrera as the porky4s as i would if i had the turbo a gt coupe. now the GT3... that's PORSCHE 911 to the fullest. and bud you can say whatever the **** you want about my cars whatever. u think i actually give a flying fuq? WHAHAHAH but it's hard to because i even admit damn i do up a car RIGHT. and you make this so personal it's hilarious man really. chill dude. i'm just an alias online. i treat you like one. treat me like one. and i couldn't care less who puts me on ignore or not. seriously, i'd tell them, change the damn channel and they did. they're weeding out their nerd selves for me. all i do is do what i do --> be me, consistently. anyways, back to bitter... like i made my original list, it's the 911 widebody or nothing. TT is something to consider, but i can see why one would want a c4s over the TT very clearly cuz that was me. i'd take a decently optioned/modded c4s over a lightly optioned (like arrogant's) TT every day of the week +1. it's that gray. 911s vary so much with options/condition it's insane. it's not like you're buying a bottega veneta suitcase. you're buying a house. the whole package with its myriad of parts and conditions. i trust that we are helping bitter choose wisely.

Quotes source post: 5248432

I wouldn't dis your car, because I think it's hot. But to even put the C4S into the class of a TT, is to me, ridiculous. $125k car v $85k car that can NOW be had for a couple K diff? Cmon....and YOU wanna nitpick the "duck tail" or a few extra options? I simply think it's ridiculous, and I think I'm not alone. Once again, as someone who's owned both, I don't see how you can put them in the same league. You're simply outclassed on this one, and I think a person who wants a C4S and can get a TT for 5 or $6k more would be FOOL not to. Just MY 2 ****ing sense!! PS. Sometimes I like to be douchey, too!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OYUKJCDOFME Top Gear C4S and Turbo

It's clear that Clarkson doesn't like the 911 forced induction or N/A. I'm like him along this front. Ferrari over Porsche. And since you've brought up automotive reviews, if you read up on evo mag, they give the 996 C4S a 5 star rating. The Turbo and C4S are close enough that there is no out-classing going on just as I find the 997C4S and 997TT... close enough that I'd cross-shop both like we are doing here.

Quotes source post: 5247914

$10K or 20% is definitely NOT a "no brainer value". Here's one way of looking at it. When I was looking at the brand new C4S back in '02, MSRP was close to $90K. TT brand new was close to $120K. That's a $30K (30%) diff. To me, it wasn't worth it then. That's how I decided to get the C4S. Now, currently, the $10K (20%) diff "may" be worth it. Here's another way to look at it. $10K is $10k. For $10k less, I get all the power I need, all the options I want, in a body style I like better, in a newer car. The $10K more I spend on a TT buys me intangibles I don't really care about. The C4S plus any $10k worth of goodies (I dunno, a really big widescreen HD TV maybe?) will bring me more joy. Which way do you want to look at it? It's a quandary, for sure. But, it's fun, isn't it ? Good luck, have fun. There is NO wrong choice. Either one will get you an excellent Porsche.

Quotes source post: 5248027

This is more true for Porsches than for any other car I've ever driven. Can an M3 beat a C4S? I dunno. Maybe. Can anybody driving an M3 beat an experienced Porsche pilot in a C4S? An entirely different question. There are people out there who can drive fast, and there are people out there who can drive 911s fast. The new M3 gives up 6 seconds to a 997 C2S on the 'ring. The E46 M3 was only 6 seconds faster than the much older 993 C2... with the 993 being driven by the same guy as all the aforementioned BMWs, Horst von Saurma. (The E46 M3 was slower than an E60 M5, by the way). So why didn't the Bimmers beat up on the Porsches? Why was the 997 in a league of its own? It's not in the numbers. It's Rohrl. Some people know how to make 911s go fast. So it ends up being a silly debate. ***** out with the best of breed driver in each car, my money is on the P-car, always. You versus me on a track day? Moot. I just don't think you can bench race a 911.

Quotes source post: 5248645

Right, $10k is one thing...but $3 to $5k, a whole 'nother thing.

Quotes source post: 5248678

Right on, Bruce. I said it would be a good race with an M3. Ben said "You have 0 chance of beating an M3!" Dissing my car and calling it the "slowest 911." Alas, this was back when he drove an M3 and I drove a C4S.

Quotes source post: 5248678

I'd go further and say that this is all hairsplitting which goes back to the point that the E46 M3 and the C4S are in the same perf ballpark and heck, I'd say someone driving a GT3 shouldn't be overly confident that somehow the other guy with equal skills is going to be outright slower around an insanely long course like the 'ring cuz he's not driving the faster car on paper. In real terms, let's just think about how chicken **** most of would be sitting in a damn Civic let alone a 911 looking at miles and miles of turns. We can sit here and armchair QB all day, but all I know is, when I had my S2000 out on the track for a day's worth of schooling... I was totally fine with my "torqueless" wonder. It was FAST for me.

Quotes source post: 5248791

Yes, back then I had little to no experience driving a C4S. Now I know better. I know that the C4S would still be neck and neck with an E46 M3. And I have driven better now with the 997TT. I have driven the 996 GT3 and I realize how much I don't like lag even in the not supposed to be laggy at all 997TT. I did get to drive the 996TT and it was laggier than the 997TT. The TT models sound no where near as inspiring as the NA versions. Period. I got to drive the F360. Certainly slower than the TTs, but oh SO SUPERIOR. Clearly, the hp/tq package is superior with forced induction, but like in so many things in life, there are the downsides. And in both cases, my M3 and my C4S are still more desireable than either of your lightly optioned, bone stock 911s past and present. LOL

Quotes source post: 5248514

arr0gant - thanks a bunch for the top gear clip. watching season 7 is actually what made me initially think about buying a car, since they seemed to be having so much fun on the track. that led me to look at porsches which has led me here. i'll definitely think pretty long and hard about the TT if I can find it w/in a reasonable range ($2-3k extra). i just fear it's going to be more like $10k when mileage, model year, and warranty are all factored in.

Quotes source post: 5248851

Good points , Bitter. I think the bottom line is, if you look hard enough for the same year/options/miles, there will in fact be about a $10k difference. In other words, if you find a well optioned, low mile 2002 C4S for $48, that SAME 911 in TT form will be $58k.

$10K is it and I recommend that you drive a TT as well; figure out what it is you want all things considered.

Quotes source post: 5248840

Oh, it ON.

Quotes source post: 5248831

That's because the track was its natural element, young man. Low end grunt is of minimal value on a racetrack. What I'd like to do, and I'd recommend the same to you, is sit in the bitch seat while someone who really knows 911s drives my car on the track. Up to 8/10ths, a 911 is point-and-shoot, like any car. Past that, it really is it's own thing. I'd love to just study someone really good at it. From all reports, these things have limits higher than most of us have the guts for. Then I'm going to try it myself. I would be interesting to get your perspective on the M3 after you'd tracked your car. Not saying it's better or worse, but it's damn sure different. And there is a reason the 911 - even the 996, the Rodney Dangerfield of Porsches - enjoys the affection it does with racers.

bitterazn: Look at porschenashua.com They will be less high pressure than Chambers.Not too far north of Boston.

If you can't spend the extra $10k, DO NOT drive the Turbo!! I was all set to buy a 2005 997S and I drove a brand new one (2007 at the time), I LOVED IT and I told my salesman to get me an 05! The next weekend my salesman from Parktown Porsche called and said, I didn't find you an '05 Carrera S, but we did get a CPO '01 TT, I know it's not what you want, just come drive it.....you know the rest!

Quotes source post: 5249044

I think you're making the 911 out to be a more special drive than what it really is and it makes sense because we tend to aggrandize those things that we hold dear. Rationally and irrationally. Heck, the Z3 that the instructor took me around in was... crazy FAST... due to the driver and tires. A TON of cars these days have limits higher than what most of us have the guts for as you say. Lower power cars like the Civic Si. Good power cars like the Evo and STIs. I did enjoy attending the "racing" school and I learned a lot. I learned to respect a lot of cars out there; humbled me all the same. I learned to respect the guys who are the track nerds, yet given how much of a hobby and $ spend it is, make fun of those nerds who think they're the man behind the wheel. It simply comes down to where you invest your time. Talent has little to do with it cuz if it did, people would be paying you to drive fast. And I think it's not going way out of the box to say the rear-engine layout is fundamentally flawed, but for some crazy reason it's survived this long in this car. Timing and luck has something to do with it (a part of what makes the 911 special). Porsche 911 engineers are awesome cuz they've successfully masked a white elephant of a flaw for so many decades. The E46 M3 drives great with a crazy nice engine, but it just doesn't sound unique and doesn't steer as well as the 911. I love the E46 M3 and I'm sure I'd enjoy driving the E92 version. But, again, the 911 N/A cars just sound soooo good and have so much history - truly a delight. And given this history, I've come to appreciate the GT3 all the more as it stays truest to Porsche motorsport. I mean it's the badrase GT1 engine with all the special high-rev bits that the forced induction models do not have. It's lighter. It's RWD which I do miss about the M3 as there's a distinct alacrity missing with the crazy, confidence-inspiring grip of AWD. I want a 997 GT3 in arctic silver. I'd add Techart sideskirts, lower it on a set of Champion RG5s for the street and call it a day!

bitter, my own revised advice: go out and buy the cheapest facelift CPO 911 you can get your hands on in the color you want in the trim you need, beat the snot out of it for a couple of years. You'll worry less about all the pleasant traffic, parking, salt, and weather Boston has to offer, learn how to drive a fast car properly, and graduate to a Carrera S or Turbo or GT3 or Carrera GT or Cruise Missile or whatever you want to drive when you've had your fun with it. Moreover, I think paying 54K for an 04 996 C4S is not a great idea, personally speaking, not with 05 997 prices where they are now that lease-returns are coming in. If you're going to drop that money, I think cheapest CPO 997 is the way to go from many angles, especially depreciation-wise. New Country in Greenwich has an 05 silver CPO 997 for 55K, there's an 05 CPO in Danbury for 59. Figure you'll knock something off these prices and get the updated interior and body style, same power, close weight for close to what you're trying to spend here. NO they won't keep up with a 996 turbo at 10/10ths or in a drag race, but by your own admission you might not keep up with the turbo either, and if you don't have time for a test drive I have a feeling you won't be tracking the car or hooning around drag strips. Check porscheusa.com for CPO inventory

Quotes source post: 5244147

Razn- I tried to reread the whole thread, and didn't see you explain what are you going to use your car for? Will it be a Daily Driver, a compromise kid-mobile, a track baby, mod machine, AX/DE/Funner, garage queen, or a Sunday stroller? There is a lot of room to maneuver based on you intended use. As far as stress at the dealer: I haven't had a pushy agent yet. These cars sell themselves, so the agents don't get in your face or try the hard sell on you. It may just be our location, but I've been to the 3 dealerships here many times (even after I bought my car) to look at the lot. Just remember, no matter how "in love" you are with a car, there's another one just like it or better for sale tomorrow -td

Quotes source post: 5254440

It'll be something between a daily driver and a Sunday stroller. I live in a city and will be walking to work everyday. So I'll mainly be driving this for leisure on weekends, but I'll have no other car to fall back on if I need to go to the grocery store or something. Yeah, my experience at the dealership was fairly laid back. He seemed to know less about p-cars (at least 996s) than me, which was kind of sad given all I know is from Top Gear and reading internet forums for two weeks.

Quotes source post: 5253500

ht - Thanks for the advice. I don't expect to get a CPO Porsche since the premium seems unreasonably high. They charge an arm and a leg to warranty the 996s. Instead, I was planning on getting a decently optioned '03 C4S for $47k and spending $2-3k for an aftermarket service plan. That being said, you raise a good point that I may be happier in a stock '05 997 given that I currently can't drive worth a damn. I guess the question is updated interior vs. sexy widebody? I thought for the $2k I'd save, I could probably mod the 996 interior to look more modern. In terms of the expected depreciation hit on the 996s, shouldn't that have worked its way through the system? w/ 997s going on sale in summer of '04, the 3yr leases should have started flooding the market 6 months ago. Or am I doing that math wrong? I would've thought that the depreciation curve has flattened out for the 996 and is only just beginning to flatten for the 997? I guess at the end of the day, $4-5k = 3 or 4 nights of heavy drinking w/ friends in NYC. But for me it's all about getting a bargain! I'm guessing you can understand, since you work in investment as well.

"I guess at the end of the day, $4-5k = 3 or 4 nights of heavy drinking w/ friends in NYC. " Then please put me on the invite list to your next party!!! Oh wait, on second thought, I'm getting way too old to drink like that

Quotes source post: 5256463

Bitter i'm always pinching the wrong pennies, but i do love a good deal! > I just heard they changed the CPO to a one year warranty and raised the cost to boot, can't confirm, but you may be right on the money re: 3rd party plan. Just make sure you get a PPI done by someone who isn't in cahoots with the dealer. I would still buy a first Porsche from a Porsche dealer though. > 997 was reworked a bit, flared wheel arches, a little more coke bottlesque, some think it looks more muscular than the 996 widebodies. I like both, and narrowbodies too. > A base 996 C2 or 997 C2 is quicker more often than not than a 996 C4S, which has the same power but noticeably more weight and 4 wheel drive system. My comment about this being your first car was re: the turbo. > If you are ditching CPO as a requirement, I'm betting you can get a 997 for pretty close to even money to the C4S. Drive em back to back, look at em side by side, and pull the trigger. > Just remember a 996 C4S is only a bit more than an inch wider on each side than a C2 (60mm total) and under half an inch wider on either side than a 997, we're not talking 930-era narrow vs wide looks here, with 996 it's really a subtlety and lost on most, a thing that we car nuts obsess over. I like the widebodies, but it just wasn't enough of a difference for me. Of course many here will differ, and this is really just a matter of personal preference. > Last note, if you go 997, try to get 18" wheels or geico/your insurer of choice zero deductible wheel & tire cover, every one of my buddies with a 997 in a major city and my lawyers on both coasts are riding on somehwat bent (or bent then straightened) 19" 997 factory wheels (I have 19s and am praying to the road work gods daily now that I'm back in NY) ------ BTW modeling the 993 v. 996 v. 997 depreciation curves is terrible, all plateaus & cliffs. Largely irrational (maybe not to one of my quant buddies), but outside of the GT2/GT3 these cars are priced to fashion (some would call it romance) more than anything else as production volumes do not account for the strange peaks and valleys, neither does performance/trim level (see 996 turbo vs. C4S pricing today). And while this comment will draw fire in this forum, I've found that factory customization options in particular are complete throwaways on resale, which does follow logic a bit better (see Anna Kournikova's 996). After throwing my hands up in the air, my take is that the 997 in visually resembling a 993 but being as fast or faster than a 996 with with an interior like a freaking lexus made it an incredibly in demand lease vehicle, which meant low residuals in favor of Porsche/banks, which in conjunction with a soft market for sub-exotic vehicles (credit/crunch/real estate/banking/recession etc) has resulted in lower than expected secondary market pricing for the 997 at the moment. I'm only half serious and half exhausted because I started thinking about it again, but still, there's not a lot of "sense" in any of this. After all you're not buying a distressed asset, you're blowing some money on something fun, thats what these things are about. Insert cliches: Life's short, have fun, don't sweat the small stuff, etc.

Quotes source post: 5261956

htny - Went to the dealership over the weekend and got a test drive in the c4s. While the grip was insane, it was hard to get over the aesthetics of the interior compared to the 997. I'm looking into the $55k 997 you mentioned in Greenwich. Inventory is surprisingly light, but I suspect that will change as leases continue to roll-off, 4 year warranties begin to come due, and investment banks slowly implode. Yeah it's not exactly like vulture investing, but I work at a credit hedge fund, so what do you expect me to do? As always, thanks for the advice. I'm now trolling the 997 board.

Quotes source post: 5270725

Smart choice on moving to the 997. Many a wise P-owner says: Buy the very newest 911 you can afford. Good luck and keep us posted.

Quotes source post: 5270725

If you're going to spend the money, I think you'll like the 997, it's a direct response to most of the complaints about 996s by most people, interior and exterior are that much fresher. Just bang as hard as you can on the price, you'll always get something off of anything they list online. Unlike most credit you're buying, it is an active market and there will be other bidders, but if you're not pressed to buy immediately, take your time, watch inventory regularly, and you'll have one at a price you like before you know it.