Hate to admit it, but the 996 is just not that fast...

There are so many cars these days that have similar 0-60 times. I realize that very few cars handle like a 911 (thankfully), and even fewer are as appealing, but, years ago, the 911 handled better than any other sports car AND was faster than nearly all of them. Today, not so. It seems like the rest of the automotive world has closed the speed gap. There are dozens of cars that have similar or better 0-60 times (again, I appreciate that 0-60 is not the Holy Grail, but, jeez, it was a lot more fun when we could corner better than anyone AND blow just about anyone away at a light.) "Dozens" may be an overstatement, but plenty for sure. I realize that this perspective is a bit childish and immature, but anyone else feel this way? Still love the 911, don't get me wrong, but a little more juice when the light turns green would be much appreciated. (Just blowin' off some steam-- I need to get over it or, I suppose, save my pennies for a TT.) GBG

I agree with you...

I went through a similar dilemma this past spring when I decided I "needed" to become a Porsche owner again and started looking at used 996's. My daily driver is a G35 coupe (280 HP) and while the base 911 had many appealing traits to me, a 35 HP bump for my weekend/track/hobby car just wouldn't cut it. So I went over budget and bought a used Turbo. Didn't make the wife happy (not much does these days, but that's another story) and had a variety of used car issues, but there really is no substitute (for 415 HP)!

I think many people would be happier if they made a lighter and less expensive version rather than loading them with too many non-removable options and weight.

i agree with you all. Last year I bought my 1st P-car - 2000 996...I wish it had more kick at the lower range as was abit lighter too etc... I think the ultimate 911 is a GT3 and love the torque and loud crazy ride...Porsche should keep selling the plush daily driver version and sell an RS with more HP and less weight! Porsche figurd it all out when they began catering to the masses and not the enthusiasts...Figured out how to make money that is!!! Robert

"...I realize that very few cars handle like a 911 (thankfully), and even fewer are as appealing, but, years ago, the 911 handled better than any other sports car AND was faster than nearly all of them. Today, not so..." out-of-the-box, the 996 doesn't handle that well either. with a lot of massaging it can be made great, but so can many other cars--4-door sedans included. the upcoming c6 z06 'vette will likely be a 'giant killer' and have superior peformance numbers to all 996/997 variants, save for--and this is a maybe --the gt2. that said, i'm still in que for a 997S...but that could change. the z06 is used as an example cos it's well under $100k, but there are 4-door sedans under $100k that can stay with a 996tt...

Gentlemen it is truly more than numbers - sure the EVO and Turbo's of today are just as fast, if not faster but we still drive one of the best, most well know model car EVER ! the style and grace the 996 has is truly second to none - they demand a level of respect by all, regardless of the speed numbers. A couple of weeks ago I drove by a EVO - Boy racer event in a nearby mall, many of the EVO's had over 500hp - and their 0-60 was in the low 4's I know they will blow me away, but I fear not - because to me it's not about that. When I drove in to check out some of the EVO's (I like them very much) My Slow-*** Targa got more people gathering around it than any of the EVO's - Go Figure. When my wife races me in her CLK55 ///AMG she can hang with me as far as stright lines are concern all the way to 130+mph. Again I say it's more than numbers. It's a way of life, and I choose my 996 as the life to live.

I dont think the 996 has the most amazing performance either but think about it like this. When youre in the car and you really get on the gas and glance at the tach or speedo all you see is the numbers moving up quickly. The car doesnt have that seat of the pants throw you in the seat so hard you need a neck brace - no - thats not what this car is all about either. The evos and stis of the world are fast and handle well. But in 20 years which car is going to be remembered? The 996. It has a classic style. This is my biggest gripe with the automotive industry today. Cars are just plain ugly. No longer do we have the amazing lines of such cars as the XKE, or the TR250, or even of ferraris of the '60s. Todays cars are far too designed from computers - sure this gives great advances in speed and handling. But the charm of the old cars is gone. I feel the porsche may be one of the last few remaining cars that combines everything of a true sports car - albeit now with a few too many luxo options to be considered a true sports car. The point of my rambling is this. The 996 is still plenty fast, still handles very well, and still is able to create an over all package that neither looks boy racer, nor loses the focus of the lines of a beautiful car. Im sure many of you agree - just go out in your garage and observe how the light hits the curves on that amazing body that is porsche. Just my 2cents as an old car buff upset with most new cars Jeff

Ha - RJMDAD beat me to the punch a bit on that post

Comparing a Porsche to an EVO or STI or even a to a vette is a lot like comparing the experience of sleeping with a beautiful or plain girl. Maybe the plain girl has expertise in love making but it sure feels a lot better when the girl is beautiful. To me the Porsche is like the beautiful girl in my analogy. Maybe the Porsche isn't faster than some of the other cars but when you drive one it gives you a special feeling which is hard to quantify. At least that's the way it is for me. By the way I don't own a Porsche yet, but hopefully that won't be the case next year.

Last time I asked about any actual 0-60 or 1/4 mile times on this board, I was labelled as a ricer by those who always fall back on the 996 being a track car, not a drag car. While I agree with the track car argument in a sense, I also drive in a straight line to work every day... Maybe part of the issue is that the 996 just doesn't have the torque factor to make you believe that it can do 0-60 in less than 5 seconds, while actually it is fully capable... the butt dyno can be very misleading some times... Good to see that I'm not the only "ricer" on this board.

Conversely. Last night on "Rides" they showed a premier hot rod builder fabricate a custom 1970 Barracuda with a 700hp? hemi engine for Joe "Fear Factor"Rogan. He said "I own a Porsche Turbo, but this is more fun". But it took 7 months to build the custom Barracuda and the cost was $200K plus. The 996 has the overall performance that every car buff wants at a price that is affordable. My proof: my 55+ hot rod school chums let me display my Pcar at their limited invitation Show and Shine in PDX each August. For that matter the wives generally are vocal about wanting a Porsche. Plus, I still have my driver's license. How the turbo guys stay out of jail is beyond me.

Name one. If you are talking straight line... there are some that can be made to stay with it. But none do on the track and none do bone stock.

The Audi RS6 maybe?

Nope. Next....

Having just completed my 25th day at DE this weekend, there is only one non Porsche car that I can think of that can blow the doors off my 996. A Viper, on the straightaways. BMW M whatevers, MB AMG whatevers, Subaru WRXYZ, Mustang Cobra, Corvette Z06, Audis, Mazdas, all of them bone stock, cannot catch a 996. Other than the Viper, a Carrera 4S, a 996TT, GT2 and GT3, and a dedicated aircooled 911/944 race car, are faster than the 996. Now, there are a few things a stock Corvette Z06 owner can do to make their car faster than a 996: Wider track tires to take them around corners faster. But even with wider tires, the big American V-8 cars that I run with usually start running a fever over 280 degrees after a few sprints, and they have to slow down to cool off a little. So the initial lead they have melt away when the engine temp goes up. Remember, this reply only applies to STOCK. 0-60's are one measure. Track times are another. I happen to believe that performance on a track reflects how well a car is, overall. My cheap 2 cents.

I know, our cars are not that fast. I think about this factor all the time but the true styling keeps me positive about the car though. But until I can get a turbo, Im happy with the 996's performance/style. Im going to try to make it more aggressive with some mods in the near future. I wouldnt even think about trading in my 996 for a subaru or audi, let alone a corvette. I mean, would you trade your 996 in for a mustang if it is faster than your porsche in a straight line??

I generally am aware of laptimes of various cars around my local track, and everyone can read the endless publications of fast and furious 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times in the industry rags. Several cars, at half the price, can out accelerate, out corner, out lap a 996, notably Sti's and Evo's. Every iteration of the 911 never was, and I reckon never will be, a performance bargain. You pay extra for the privelege of driving an icon, and the way it makes you feel driving one, washing one, and generally oogling one. Raw data has never been the 911's forte. The entire ownership experience, however, is.

You can make any car fast, but there is only one 911. Say you have a ten second drag CRX, guess what, its still a CRX. Ill take the Porsche any day.

Lets face it. Many cars today are coming to the point where they put up supercar numbers regardless of price. When a 45K C6 vette posts numbers that are the same or better than a 996TT at over 100K, we have to acknowledge that incredible feat. I am going to buy a C6 next because I cannot justify the cost of a 997, or TT. There are many on this board who live in denial. Our cars don't put up spectacular numbers by any means. The only reason to purchase a 911 or other high end sports car today is for prestige and exclusivity than anything else. Our 996s don't have the reliability of an NSX. Many like the fact that they can say I drive a 911(expensive car). Personally, I don't care much for what others think about me; I want ridiculous performance from a car I can drive to work everyday. Bobby

You know I can understand your frustration with the lack of power on the street. I remember when I first bought my C4S it felt very quick to me. Then I got used to it and I began to feel the need for more power. But then I started doing DE and all I can say now is I can't come close to using all the power and performance offered by my bone stock car. So now when I am on the street I'm usually driving pretty easy. Just some thoughts to consider.

Style, Appeal, Cache, the 996 is at the top of my list. Performance wise, I have come to accept the fact that lower end Pontiac's pull away from me at the stop lights ....

I took a WRX out for a drive long before I bought my C4S. While on paper they may have similar performance the WRX just did not feel as involving - even compared to the MR2 Spyder that I had at the time. The C4S, however, goes great and feels great too and, to me, that is what it is all about. I don't have to be going fast, I just have to feel like I am going fast

Hey Scott in Houston, How about the new V8 M5 ???

Just drive the damn car. That's all the experience that you need.

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If you lust for HP and straightline performance, you do not understand the 911 and should look elsewhere.

Its actually a V10 next year...

From what I read, the C6 will toast most 911 models on the track except maybe the GT variants. I am with you though, I drive a 964 because to me it gives me something that no other car I have driven (and I include other Porsches) can...of course my car is heavily modded and I would recommend this to anyone who thinks their Pcar hasn't got enough juice...

There are no stock 4 door sedans under a $100K that are as fast as the TT. Now if you go to coupes, how about the Viper SRT - 10 ? The TT and SRT 10 are so close that it would be a driver's race, and the Dodge costs around $80K. By the way if I had $80K to spend on a car, the Viper wouldn't be my first choice. I'd be buying the 997 in a heartbeat. 0-60 times mean little to me.

The 0-60 times are ok, yes there are cheaper faster cars but the are fugly. The GT3 is the only Porsche model to get if your looking for good 0-60 times and are on a budget. While there are really expensive sedans, I am not sure how long they going to last under the stress of having and using that much power under the hood and they are built to be driven under extreme conditions like at the track for very long. Too expensive + fugly sedan + Life span questionable + Not so great handling = just by a Subaru In 10 years those cheap faster cars will have tons of problems and won't be worth a thing. While a 911 really seems to be made of quality parts and will have a longer life span not to mention the resale value. For me having AWD is a must have. There isn't that much with awd that can compete against my C4S and the ones that can like Subaru is plain *** cheap and the Audi S4 is too expensive for the quality its not even half as well made a Merc or BMW. I only wish I could get the GT3 engine in my car. Now that would be perfection, at least for me. If I lived where there wasn't snow I wouldn't consider having awd as a must have. I would go for the GT3 which to me is the closet thing to driving a true Porsche. Well if I didn't have a budget it would be the GT2 but that aint the case.

My last three cars were '01 M5. '02 745Li and '03 SL500. The most fun to drive, by far, was the M5 which has very similar performance and handling to my C4S. The difference, and I think this is what makes us pick 911s time after time, is the feeling and looks of the entire package. The car just has style, grace, and is understated. Add reliability and utility (I can put my little kids in the back). I like Ferraris and Astons better for looks and exclusivity, but my 911 can be driven fast in traffic every day, without making me look like I'm trying too hard and flaunting my wealth. How quickly it moves off the line seems besides the point, and would only be an issue if it was a slug (which it definitely isn't).

There is so much more to a Porsche, especially a 911, then raw HP. I have people tell me all the time, 'the new vette is faster!' and my response is always the same. 'Yeah, what's your point?' Who cares, my 320HP 911C4S Cab is plenty fast enough for me to get into trouble, and in a straight line any car can go fast. What's that new wretched domestic vehicle? the Dodge Magnum? That thing can go fast - I had one flex on me recently, which car would you rather be in? The C4S Cab or a Dodge Magnum?

What amazes me is how different people have different interpretation of this post. To me this is a guy who clearly enjoys his 911 for it's superiority over any other for it's over-all package (that's why he drives one), just stating that in yester-years 911's had superior "performance-numbers" compared to pretty much anything else on the road. It's not the case today, who could argue with that. To me it absolutely doesn't matter that other cars have caught up in the number game, the C4S has more than enough juice for me on the track, i don't know whether i'll ever be able to extract what it can offer. The performance brings me to my knees against the german gods of speed, and restores my faith in humanity. But, if it has better acceleration numbers, it will even be a better package. To those who think other cars are better for them, so be it. If you couldn't appreciate the difference between a 911 and say a vette or a WRX, why pay the extra $. But, don't tell me there is no difference, i have the capabilities to see the difference ( not just prestige and exclusivity) in how the car and I being one and the same with a 911, which I absolutely don't see in others. A collegue of mine test drove his friends boxter for weeks, was telling how I could own a p-car as it is the harshest and the most uncomfartable car he'd driven, sort of like the vehicles in the sixties , he ended up buying the lexus-convertible with the hardtop, that's the car for him, I can't argue with that, so if a vette is yours, so be it. For me, there is no substitute.

Who cares if my C4S is the fastest? In my daily 75 miles commute, I am lucky if I see one or two Porsches, usually a Boxster. In over two months I have seen only one other C4S, and this is on one of Boston most congested highways!. Everyday i see many WRXs, Evos, Corvettes, AMGs, M3 and others, but only one C4S, the one I'm driving. Alain

Perhaps, other manufacturers have caught to the P-cars in terms of performance, and maybe, -maybe- even handling, but the fun factor still remains high on my requirement list. The Porsche 911 is a car that fullfills that to its fullest.

That was my point. The original poster said there are $100k sedans that can keep up with a TT. That's just not so. Of course there are coupes that can. I never even came close to disputing that! SYMA, the new M5 will be a V10, and it will be close to a Turbo, but again, no, it won't perform at the same level. It's reported track and acceleration times are all slower than the Turbo, although it's as close as sedan comes today.

All An interesting thread, but not new news. Check the 0 to 60 and quarter mile times of American 1960's muscle against the 911S of the day. For me, it is all about balance.

Well my 2 cents here.Maybe everyone is catching up to the Porsche in terms of performance and some have probably bettered it but one thing is for sure- Porsche is the standard for which cars are made and still is. Ask neonejust the name "PORSCHE" is to sportcars as Michael Jordan is to basketball(Ferrari too). Maybe my ego is up today but oh well haven't got flamed in awhile. My friend has an EVO(mods so far equate to 355 whp/335 trq) and what a great car for the money and alot of potential but most people will flock around a Porsche. Hell, my old school track-spec GTI(alot of graphics : )!!) gets more attention then his EVO at the track. Regards. Mike PS-there's a never ending limit to how much power you want. Even if future 911's come with 420 hp(NA) wwouldn't be enough-it's the nature of the beast. I still think my GT3 could be faster-you gotta stop somewhere I think.

What a fun discussion. I agree with most of you but the p-car is a little slow for the price when you look a new cars like those mentioned and even the top of the line Crossfire and SLK for much less. I went the Evo SC rout for those very reasons and had to comprimise with a risk of warrenty, reliability and resale issues. I have been pleasantly surprised that my dealer still warranties most of the car, e.g. radio replacement and RMS, etc. I rarely have the occasion to street light race (only two in town and both one lane) but love the occasional duel on the interstate when relatively safe. How many of us would really street race anyway. The car is magnificant, fun and pleanty fast. It draws crowds and smiles. There is no substitute. Will

easiest fix for the 996 is adding an EVOMS supercharger. I'm just itching to do it. Consider it a $12K option. Power goes from 320 to 470. Cost would be $80/HP

How much for just 100 hp??? I'm not greedy

How much longer will the M96 engine last after that "upgrade" ?

"...Scott_in_Houston: That was my point. The original poster said there are $100k sedans that can keep up with a TT. That's just not so. Of course there are coupes that can. I never even came close to disputing that! .." road & track: mbz e55 -- $76,105 as tested, 0-60 4.2, 0-100 9.4, 1/4 mile 12.4/116.4 996tt -- $118,365 as tested, 0-60 4.0, 0-100 9.2, 1/4 mile 12.4/115.6 to me, with a price delta of $42,260, the e55 also looks like good value.

fine, if you consider the sine qua non of performance to be straight line speed.... Ever watched an E55 at the track? ROFLMAO....

Some of you guys are funny. In 944 land we know we are not that fast. Hell most of us have to get used to being beaten off the line my a mini van filled with the neighborhood under 10 soccer team. My 84 944 daily driver... A wopping 143 hp (at the flywheel) and 0-60 in all ov 8 seconds. Those number are pretty **** poor for a "sports car" these days. Well that car is STILL blast to drive. The reason is the poise and balance that it provides the driver. It is certainly not the fastest car around, but I'd bet it even now 20 year later can hold its own in the street vs most of what you will find. Even if it does not it does not mater since it provides a driving experience that little else can match. So too will the day come that your 996's are really slow not just "not the fastest thing out there" anymore. Then you need to apprecite all those thing that make a Porsche special.

* * Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: NC Posts: 231 Hey SYMA, the new M5 is a V 10 and cost everybit as much as a 996. I can tell you that in Seattle there are no M5s that can hang around a track. There are no cars that are great in every application. Drag,oval,road cource, freeway on and on. the M5 is a great car. It is a big pig of a car at the track but on the street it as great and one could drive 500 miles in a quiet cabin. But going through the corners or hitting the brakes the 996 will eat its lunch. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hey Scott in Houston, How about the new V8 M5 ??

We should send this thread to the company who does porsche marketing. Clearly they are doing a good job. I love my 996, but it is not the clear hands down winner you all make it out to be. I feel good driving it, polishing it and everything else. Thats why I own one and not anything else. However, the 997 is not much of an improvement, whereas the C6 is a huge jump in quality and performance. The standard vette has better track times than a TT if I remember correctly. Wait till the zo6 is out. Whoever said that P-car quality is better than any other car is wrong, look at the RMS and other engine problems. With all that said, I still own one and plan on owning several more in the future. However, I am also a car guy who appreciates any high-performance car that is built with quality and precision be it Ferrari, Aston, any M-series, MB or even a lowly chevy. All i ask is, give repect where it is due, maybe then Porsche will wake up and really improve on their product. Bobby

Well this thread has evolved into quite a comical engagement... As a newbie into the P-car world (already on week 3), I must admit that this topic of "lacking" performance in the 996's compared to cheaper muscle cars and "rice" burners did cross my mind as I evaluated options towards a sports car purchase... but in the end I persevered with what was deep in my heart and mind (eventhough that meant spending more than 30K compared to a C6 Vette)... and got my amazing 40th Anniversary 996. Driving this ride and just sitting in it is an experience altogether, and fulfills the dream that started in me as a kid about 30 years ago. I could care less if something else outguns me, I could care less about 0-60 times. I'm in a Porsche and love every single second I am in it!... And besides since I ride this demon almost every day, and get stuck in freeway traffic about 80% of the time, it is the nicest and coolest thing around in bumper-to-bumper traffic... Cheers. --Fast40th '04 996 40th Anniversary #1034 w/goodies

Lots of great responses. I'm glad I posted. Excellent board.

LOL... That thing is such a pig. Drive it around a turn or have to brake... and it's over. Again, "nope... try again." (Don't bother, there are no sedans that can keep up with a TT.)

Like others have said...what makes you happy? How fast is 'fast' - if you were looking for the fastest 0-60 times you bought the wrong car. Is the difference between 5+- secs 0-60 and 4.x+- 0-60 important? Tell me you are not happy with the x74 handling...99% of the time you will never approach the performance potential of the 996. It is impossible to approach the performance potential of the 996 responsibly on the street. Which means you are talking about the track and into an entirely different set of questions. There will always be a faster car. Take your car to Lime Rock or the Glen at the next DE and hammer it mercilessly. You will forget about the magazines. You will see your own deficiencies (no flame intended, we all have our limits) and realize the potential of the 996 is beyond mere mortals :-) Buy what makes you happy. For me the c2 w/x74 is more than I can use 99% of the time and way more than I "need". Is there a less expensive car which makes me happy? Yes, a boxster, and maybe one day I will get one of those too.

M758, well said.

Jeff - how goes the debate between the C2S and the GT3.....still caught between the proverbial?

Bill, I posted in the GT3 forum on my test drive today. All told, I've 6,000 miles on my new to me C4S, a 1.5 hour test drive in the hill country and some hot laps in the GT3, and a 1 hour test drive in the C2S. Because the GT3 and C2S test drives were 3 weeks apart, I'm driving the C2S again tomorrow (hopefully, pending its arrival at my dealer). I'm presently thinking that, price independent, the C2S is going to have a tough time delivering as engaging of an experience as the GT3. But, don't get me wrong, the C4S is a great car; for me, I need to be back in a RWD platform. Cheers, Jeff

i would have bought a viper if i wanted a fast car ;-)

Jeff- thanks for the update...just amused by the degree to which your thinking parallels mine.. Concur - looking to get back to RWD.

when i take my "slow" 996 out i am constantly challenged by ricers etc that i know would probably win a quick stop light drag. but when im out with my e55 (500hp) old man 4 door there are no takers. the 911 looks fast standing still.

i don't get picked-on by ricers, but fast sedans--and oddly enough--lifted trucks i know what the e55 can do, i've been spanked at least 3-times by 'em.

I drove an E55 for a test drive and spanked a Porsche who was leaving the dealer...That car is fast as hell but not to fun to drive like my 996! I love the twisties up the mountain and it puts a big smile on my face everytime! All a sedan that fast will do is get you a ticket and give you one large gas bill everymonth. Long live the 911!!!

This reminds me of the many page thread on the racing forum on which was the fastest US track. Everyone had a different methodology for defining fast. (BTW, it's Brainerd) I think a fast car needs to accelerate fast, go fast, stop fast, turn fast and be able to do it for a long period of time. By that definition, what car would you want if the challenge was a 90 minute enduro at Road America? That's taking what cars do every day and doing it faster. To me that would describe a fast car. As someone pointed out, there is no such thing as fast on the street. By that definition, the 996 is very fast. There are precious few production cars that will do better. Jim

If I wanted a "fast" car, I would've spent my $$$ on something else. Porsche encompasses so much more. Those that buy Porsches because they think that they are the fastest cars out there are obviously not car buffs. just my $.02

Would I love more power in my 911? Yes, why not. Would I prefer that Porsche put sports suspenion as a stock item to make a 996 behave like a true sports car? Yup. Does it still put a smile on my face the way it is? Yup, absolutely. Would I trade my lowly 996 for the next gen and most likely faster EVO, STI, Corvette, Mustang, Audi, MB, BMW? HELLLLL no! Having said that, for me the next car probably isn't a Porsche as I'm down for the count for a '97-onwards F355 Spyder, a sports car that is probably even SLOWER in 0-60 times than my current ride but it will feel faster to me in every way. And the reason I will buy it is the exact same reason why I bought the 996. All I wanna do is smile each time I get in the car for a ride and the litany of faster rides named above elicit only a big, wide yawn. As long as the car is fast enough, has brilliant handling and stopping, and the cachet to take it anywhere I want with pride, then that's the car for me. Boiling a car down to the 0-60 times is a fun exercise but doesn't even begin to capture the why behind an icon like a 911, IMHO.

guys...listen... every topic concerning how fast is a car...is related to a 911.... everyone compares the performance of any car, to THE 911 performance.... i think that says it all....

a 72 vw will get you a ticket and my gas bill is nearly the same as my c2. anyways, if you have a c2, m5, e55 whatever, doubt youre worrying about gas prices. i love all cars and ive never got a car that i thought was perfect as-is anyway. unless it was a gt or enzo, every car in my opinion needs a little something.

A lot of you guys are missing the point here. sorry for the long post. /steps up to soapbox/ Sure...you like waxing your 911s. Of course ricers will flock to the 911 and want to challenge it - thats all a function of status and exclusivisity. The only the P-cars have going for them now is the status - it clearly isnt performance as many of you have indicated. Is this a by-product of porsche becoming a profit-oriented company? Absolutely. (puts flame suit on) If a 911 were priced similarly to a C6 vette - would there be any thing special about the car. Well..yeah - the high quality interior, the rear engine. Now imagine if porsche "de-contented" the 911 to actually meet a $50K price point. No more leather interior etc. I strongly believe that the mystique of the car would be instantly erased. Right now, owning a porsche is a way of saying "hey..I've got extra money to burn...so I dont care that my car will get roasted by an evo". I think the point that the poster was trying to make was that there was a time when p-cars were respected for their PERFORMANCE. The 993s and 964s of the world were pretty spartan on the inside. You werent paying for all these Luxo-bits like we are now. You paid for the power,handling, visceral experience - NOT the ability to say that you choose to spend you money on a porsche. An example of what porshe USED to be is ferrari. They've always been about sportscars. Look at ferrari today - their newest "low-end" car has *redefined* the its class - jumping from 390 to 480HP - delivering wild new styling and is simply bristling with performance-aiding technology. There was a time when ferrari and porsche were competitors; now porsche is a distant runner-up. I'm talking about the days of the F40 vs 959. Granted ferrari's cost a helluvalot more than porsches do. So yeah, ferrari has continued to march ever onward - raising the bar, while porsche is content releasing a (questionably) all new model that eclipses its predecessor by what - 5HP? I'm not trying to be a douchebag, but i think that as enthusiasts we should demand and expect more from porsche. They clearly are in it for the money. Lets look at their other models - boxster S; handily trounced by several 2 door coupes. Granted, the boxster is a mid-engine design and says porsche on the back. Lets bring up that C6-priced 911 analogy. When a boxster S and 350Z pull up to the local rice convention - who's gonna get more 'cred? Who is going to win in a 0-60 drag - as well as around the track... Cayenne Compare a Cayenne S to the "other" sports-suv (infinty FX) My wife drives an infinit FX35 and my neighbor a cayenne S. We've run both truck (aaargh) against each other and its pretty sad that her FX35 (with its V6!!) is faster than the cayenne S. Ah, the interior...the FX has so many toys (backup cam is my fav) that the cayenne doesnt have. Of course the cayenne costs more, but in real world terms it doesnt since they're all so heavily discounted. So in conclusion (takes off flame suit), if you're a porsche enthusiast - you should tell porsche how you feel. To continue following like a herd of blind sheep will continue porsche's deviation from their heritage. At this point, I'm expecting them to start slapping their name and crest on everything - from bikes to skateboards....Oh no! they already have... /steps down and runs/

Qirex: You present an interesting analysis but I believe that it's flawed. Before I begin my rebuttal, I must confess that I have never had the pleasure of owning a Porsche. My 911 experience is limited to one long drive to and from Watkins Glen as a passenger and part time driver, and a couple of test drives. 1. Performance. You state that all that Porsche has going for them is mystique and that they aren't keeping up with their competition. That's simply not true. The $100K GT3 has performance that is in the super car category. And of course there is the TT, the GT2, and the GT at the top. So Porsche does indeed make cars that have performance that are competitive with the best performance cars in the world. You are confusing Porsche's endeavor to expand their market with a degradation in performance. The Boxster S for example always is at the top of the list when it is compared to its competition. Even a non-performace publication like Consummer Reports says that the Boxster is best in its class. The base 997 model is in my opinion the pinnacle of Porsche's efforts to combine all out performance with luxury and refinement. When you buy a 996 or 997 you are getting a highly refined car that handles exceptionally well , that is comfortable on long trips, that can be taken to the track, and that even has a decent amount of space for luggage under the front hood. 2. Porsche history. You suggest that Porsche use to focus strictly on performance and that it has "deviated from its heritage." If you go back to the late '60s you will find that the 911 was never the fastest car in straight line performance. The top of the line vettes were producing well over 400HP and there must have been at least a dozen American cars that had much faster straight line performance than the 911. The 911 has always been about handling, quality, durability, decent acceleration, and classic beauty. So in conclusion, Porsche in my opinion has not departed from its heritage. It continues to refine and expand its offerings to appeal to a greater market. Also, there's nothing wrong with making a profit. The easiest thing in the world to do is to make a great product and be unprofitable. The problem with this scenario is that you will quickly declare bankruptcy and go out of business. If a company doesn't make money, they can't pay their workers, and there aren't too many people who are willing to work without being paid. Porsche is doing a great job of making great sports cars and remaining profitable.

Nice post fast1, many of the things that you said are true. If you compare the boxster S to the toyata MR2 and miata - sure its best in class. Throw in a Z43.0, 350ZR and S2000 and its certainly very unclear who comes out on top (my vote s2000 - excellent track ride). I agree that a 911 is an excellent all-around car. While this is true, there are many competitors. When you look at ferrari OTOHH - for example they simply have NO competition....except for the Ford GT. Except that the car that the GT competes with and beats...(360 modena) has already been replaced with the 480 which raises the bar again. Personally i think that ferrari and porsche parted ways back in 1992 when the acura nsx proved that an exotic could be reliable and easy to keep running. Before that time exotics were difficult to own, tempermental and uncomfortable. ferrari responded by surging forward in HP and sophistication while porsche responded differntly. Its interesting to note that a brand new 997 (non S) is still competitive with the 14 year old nsx. For sure the the 997 is a better car, but 290HP from a 3.2 vs 320HP from 3.6....

we all voted with our dollars and bought porsches, so we're all of the same mindset. i don't even want them to drop their prices, but why don't they just give us a little more...in performance. me thinks the 997S should be on-par w/ the outgoing gt3 and a 996tt should be significantly quicker that a 4-door benz. when the ca. $60k, 500 hp z06 debuts this jan, that track-ready brute will surely play with my head when i'm writing a check for a $100k 997S.