Do 996 tips suck?

A friend recently sold his and swears by it. However I'm hesitant to consider one but they are cheap and I have heard alot of really great things about them. Resale is a rock?

I wouldn't own one as a gift. I had a tip Audi that suffered from tip lag SO bad it was deadly

It all depends on how and where you drive and how macho you want to be. It's great in high traffic areas, but you do lose the feel of "traditional" sports car driving. I have one (wife also drives) and if you use the manual mode you get a pretty good run-up fefore you shift. You also don't have to lift when shifting. THat said, if you're buying a Tip just to save money, you probably won't be happy with it.

I have an '03 Tip. I always use the manual mode, auto mode sucks. In auto mode it shifts to 5th too fast. I like the tip, I drive in stop and go traffic often. It definatly doesn't suck, just a different way to drive and once used to it can be just as enjoyable. I do miss a stick and if I get another P-car I think it'll be a stick.

I second Don & Kirby's comments. When you drive in "D" mode it shifts up too fast. But when you want to hit the twisties there is nothing better than popping up and down the gears without taking your hands off the steering wheel or your foot off the gas. On occassion I get pissed at the auto shift pattern, until I realize that the solution is a simpe flick from "D" to "M" and then I get the fun of shifting through the gears. Purists will also complain that the tip is still a torque converter instead of a true sequential shift, but I say, hey I'm not tracking the car, just driving aggressively for a little bit so I don't really care. It is definitely worth a test drive, but I wouldn't guaranty that you're going to love it.

The big thing I've found with Tps is that you lose the feeling of acceleration...no being pushed into the back of the seat...it feels like a much slower car.... the gears change before reaching higher revs... if it wasn't for the fact that the speedo is rapidly moving clockwise you would have no idea you were accelerating as quickly. Remember it's how quick you think you are accelerating not how quick you actually are accelerating that provides the thrill....hence the lotus elise. Mercedes autos feel much better. However if most of your driving will be in traffic stick with the Tip. Donny J

I take my car to the track and the biggest difference I notice is the "missing" gear! When I track out behind another 996 ( same tires, suspension, etc) He can barely but always pull away from me slightly. The Tip is a 5 not 6 speed and the gear ratio at any given point on the track is different. I suspect the transmission area was not large enough to put six gears into the case. On the positive side... I've never ever even come close to missing a downshift. And... as soon as you start to unwind the wheel at the apex on track out, you will get a great, smooth shift that will not unload the suspension so you can accelerate in the best part of your torque range. That is really impressive technology!!! If you could get the same number of gears (6), I'd have no real complaints!

My motivation is to let my wife drive it to meet our friends. Several of the husbands have Porsches which the wives drive when they meet sometimes thus it would be mine and I'd use it for the track. She's tried my 993 but the pedal hinge hasn't worked out. Just curious. Thanks to you all.

I got the Tip because of stop and go traffic. I do mis the feel of a 6 speed occaisionally.

The tip programing in the 996 learns how you drive, so if you drive like you're taking grandma to tea it will assume that's how you want to drive. Push it harder and it will hold gears longer and change up at higher rpm. The changes themselves also seem to happen faster when you do this. What works best though is when you drive the car around town leave it in "D" and when you go out to play use the buttons to shift manually. There's more anticipation needed driving in manual than with a stick shift. You can rev match but it's more difficult to do. On the other hand you can pre-load the next gear for the corner which is something you can't do with stick. It's my only car and I live in a city so Tip made most sense to me. What I would REALLY like is the DSG gearbox in the latest Audi TT 3.2 which a "best of both worlds" solution that gives you all the control of stick, with downshift blips and fast changes (a la M3 with SMG), as well as a smooth automatic for city driving. Should be appearing in a 997 near you sometime in the next 2 years.

Do any of you track your tips?

not me

LOL, nota_troll, I can't quite figure it out, but after reading your posts I find myself craving milk.

Dear AeroSmith. You rock! THe 993 board has been making wisecracks at my Avatar for months.

I had a big debate between stick and tip and i finally went for tip. I live in a very congested city with lots of ups and downs so that was my justification. However one thing really irritates me about Tip is the power between idle and 1500 rpm. The car literally creeks forward when you push the accelerated between that range. You don't get that initial bite. You have to keep the rpm above 2000 to get the kick. Also according to track-challenge.com a manual Carrea is faster between 80km/h -> 120km/h than an 500HP SL55 because of the extra gear you have. It makes a huge difference in Highway acceleration. Somtimes I wish that I got manual because I feel like my car has an identity crisis. Is it a GT Cruiser like a SL or is it a true sports car. It's loud, it has very stiff suspension but has a auto box. I figure if your gonna get a Porsche and deal with rock hard suspension you might as well go all the way and get manual. If I order another Porsche it will be manual regardless of the traffic conditions. Another thing whenever somebody gets into my car the first things they say is...oh it's an automatic....

LOL, thanks nota. Gotta love that Avatar. Definately harkens me back to my four years in Dallas. Maybe I should chime in here with a serious answer though. While I haven't driven a Porsche Tip and my 996 is a six speed we have an Audi allroad quattro (2.7L TT) with a 5 speed Tiptronic and shift buttons on the steering wheel. The Audi is an amazingly fun car to drive especially flooring it off the line. All you have to do is stomp on it and the car rockets all the way to redline and then to redline again and again....It almost makes me wonder if, in real world everyday driving situations, a Carrera with a Tip might not be a faster car off the line than one with a 6 speed (even though I know the published numbers show the 6 speed to be faster). And the Tip is certainly the way to go for any car that my wife will be driving as she hates manuals. Now one thing I like about the Audi Tip as compared to the Carrera Tip is that one can shift with the floor shifter as well as the buttons. I actually find the floor shifter to be easier to use when presented with a lot of rapid turns. Sometimes it can be hard to find those confounded buttons on a non-level rapidly turning steering wheel. Now my personal cars, 17 years of SAAB turbos prior to my new Carrera Coupe, have always had manual transmissions. For me a manual is just more engaging and more fun to drive. And I always seem to get better fuel economy with manuals. Yeah they suck in traffic but since I work out of the house it doesn't bother me too much. Any way, do Tips suck? Hardly. But the choice of transmissions is a personal one based on your tastes and driving preferences. These are fun problems to have, no?

I haven't driven Porsche's tip, but this thread has renewed my lingering curiosity. In terms of the tip's performance vs manual, is it mechanically-handicapped, or does the software just need improvement? SYMA mentioned that he wouldn't have a tip based on previous experience w/ an Audi tip. My wife had an '00 A6 4.2. The tip had no sport mode, was inconsistent, and was full of "dead" spots similar to those described above. Yet her '02 A6 4.2 (the old one was pretty beat up after a few Tahoe winters) has much-improved S/W, a sport mode (can even be switched from "drive" to "sport" by quickly tapping the accelerator), no dead spots, thumb shifters on the steering wheel, and, unlike the old one, can be "tipped" into 1st gear at low speeds. I'm told by Audi that this was all achieved by S/W changes and reconfigured driver controls. The car has simply been transformed! The point being, has Porsche's tip been incrementally-improved every few years? Have some of the above experiences been based on obsolete S/W? I'd love to talk my wife into replacing her A6 at some point w/ a Turbo tip. Still have AWD confidence, a tip, a roof, and heated seats. Everything on her must-have list is there. As long as she lets me drive it! Cheers, -DT

First of all, I have a Turbo Tip, so I'm sure it has quite a different feel than a NA 996 Tip. Immediately prior to the Turbo, I had an A6 2.7T with the Tip tranny and I agree that it was one of the worst auto trannies I have ever experienced. That being said, it is completely and totally improper to compare the Audi Tip to the Porsche Tip. Yes, the Audi Tip is supposed to be Porsche designed, but they are worlds apart. My Porsche Tip (in manual mode) completes a shift faster than a driver in a manual tranny car could put his foot down on the clutch. Both Porsche statistics and any Porsche Tip driver can attest to this. I do track my Tip a few times a year, and the full auto mode adapts to the track situation after about 3-5 laps of driving hard. However the tip REALLY shines on the track in manual mode - you can shift without taking your foot off the gas and without taking your hands off the wheel. Unless you are going up against someone with 3-5 years of hard track experience, a 996 Turbo Tip will always be equal to or beat a 996 Turbo Manual (other things being equal). This is simply due to faster shifting and being able to shift while under power. Combine the track abilities of the Tip with daily driving in Los Angeles traffic, and IMHO, the TIP Turbo is the most practical and capable sports car you can buy.

TM an article in Pano April 2002 confirms: Dave Murray at Road Atlanta comparing two TTs only .62 seconds faster in the stick - 1:39.03 vs 1:39.65. Slalom speeds are about the same -67.86 mph in tipS and 67.78 in the stick. Dave Murray, "If I were going to race that car, I'd have a manual. The Turbo makes so much power that driving an automatic isn't really a handicap. In fact if I could have only one Turbo, it would be the tiptronic S."

Porsche has different software with an infinite number of maps. I also used to own an Audi S4 with tip and its changes were s-l-o-w. As mentioned in my previous post the Tip in the Porsche is faster and more responsive. TT and C4S share the same Tip software and I think all other models got it in 02 or 03.

I have an S4 Avant tip and it's ok for a daily bus. Before I decided on the Audi I drove used C32 and M3/SMG. I'll say that the C32 was very very impressive while the M3 was not. Is it true that the Porsche tip is designed by Benz?

The tranny itself is *built* by MB. But, the program for the Tiptronic is Porsche's work.

Have any of you with tips left the car in full auto at the track? In my experience, it actually works better that way. The upshifts come at the red line-hard to do with the buttons. At all out speeds, it also downshifts positively under braking and holds gears in the corners. If you push the throttle down HARD and keep it there, it does not upshift too early. If it's upshifting early in traffic, it's because you're driving conservatively and it's trying to improve your mileage. You do lose a little urgency in acceleration (due to a missing gear and the torque converter), but the immediate downsift upon flooring it (HARD) actually makes it quicker in a situation requiring sudden acceleration- it can downshift faster than you can downshift a manual. AS

Well the C32 AMG was most impressive. Shift points and logic were very good.

It's interesting to hear you all talking about the Audi Tips. Originally the Tip on our 2001 allraod was pretty mediocre. In 2002 Audi came out with an updated TCM (transmission control module). I was able to have this installed in our allroad at no charge. This newer TCM noticably improved our Tip's shift speeds.

I agree that the tip shifts into 5th gear too fast for around town driving. I have a stick in my 928 GT, so the C4 tip is a great change of pace for me. I do long distance, highway driving with it. In this mode the fact that you can down-shift without lifting off the throttle does great things for "snappy" passing around a "hammer-lane-road-hog". I have not tracked the car, so no quality input on that. I am very impressed how the tip responds when I get a bit agressive with the throttle, it is like a completely different car. One other thing, in manual mode when you get on the binders the tip shifts down with you, so you just stand on it when you are ready (apex) and it is already in the right gear. That is nice. Additionally, if you stand on it, then lift abruptly, the tip will not up-shift. Man that is a very nice surprise for an automatic. I found this out blowing out of a toll gate, where 100 yards up the traffic takes a sweeping 90 degree right turn. I don't need the brakes, I lift going into the turn, engine brakeing does its thing and then stand on it at the apex, and blow out ahead of everyone still on their brakes. So, I like it. However, If it was my only Porsche, I would have gone with a stick,......... now that is engine brakeing.....FYIW.

My Audi S4 shifts too quickly from 1st unless I'm mashing the carpet. But (I'll say it again) that C32 is quick and shifts precisely. If Benz brought the C32 wagon then I'd be in that.

I think you're absolute correct, although if you asked me the same question two years back, I would have disagreed and said manual mode on the Tiptronic is better for tracking. I track my 996 TT Tip a fair bit--on average 16-18 weekends a year for the past two years. Up until very recently, I always used the manual mode on the track to better control what gear I was in at any particular time. By accident (I was learning a new track configuration, and simply forgot to flip to manual mode as I normally do), I left the Tip in auto mode during one DE session and found that the Turbo performed alot better than the last time, two years ago when I experimenting with the auto mode at the track. When I first got my 01 Turbo I looked forward to trying it in auto mode ecause I read such good things about it. I was not all that impressed because too often in auto mode it did exactly what I did not want--being in too high of a gear at turn in, and then downshifting under acceleration out of corners. Evidentally, after two years seat time, I'm carrying much more speed into the apex and also applying more but smoother throttle past the apex to track out, and the auto mode works very well at being in the correct gear in virtually any situation. But you really have to be using most of the throttle and be smooth about it. If you're too easy with the throttle in the auto mode it still upshifts too quickly and sometimes even downshifts on you when you don't really want it to. With the proper driving style, the Tip definitely works on the track, in either mode. Occasionally, in the manual mode I have ended up in too high of a gear when I goof and end up late braking and going in too hot. I click twice for a double downshift and only go down one gear. I haven't encountered that since I began using the auto mode at the track. And I've seen first hand the tip be faster at shifting than a manual--from trailing "slower" manual tranny Porsches waiting for the passing zone. The gaps really tighten up when the other guy must shift because my Tip is much faster completing a shift. So now what I'm saying is that after my driving skills have improved alot, I am seeing the Tiptronic behavior that was raved about in various magazine articles two years ago. It is pretty phenomenal. Right out of the box, you're probably going to favor the manual mode for the control factor.

Thanks for the comment. I had previously posted my Dereck Bell story re tip vs manual circa 1992. Two years ago, I took my then high school senior daughter to a Porsche Club driving school at Blackhawk Farms in a 1999 Boxster tip. She left it in full manual the entire day, and was unquestionably one of the fastest novices vs many "quicker" 911's. I think if more people let the tip do it's own thing, they'd be shocked. We both learned that the tip comes into its own when you drive extremely aggeessively, both accelerating and braking, especially if you are braking and cornering at 8/10"s or more. AS

As a GT cruiser it's great. As a prcecise track car it lags. It's not bad overall and I am personally happy with my, but would wait for SMG

Gery, Not to lash out at you, but have you been following this thread at all? Everyone here who actually owns a Tip agrees that it is as good or better performing than a 6-speed manual! Yes even on the track, unless you're a Michael Schummacher type.

Trojan, I am just expressing my opinion. What is your complaint? I do own Tip and think 6 speed does feel more precise and you control the action, not the software program...

Luckily for Porsche they began development of their"PDK" gearbox some 15-20 years ago that has morphed into Audi's DSG gearbox. By all press accounts so far this wipes the floor with SMG. As to the 996 being a GT cruiser, you're probably right. It really comes down to the driver and what they can get out of it, rather than any failing of the car itself. I always think this kind of comment is particularly amusing when you read the lap times of various cars around the Nurburgring to see which is fastest. Kind of sorts the men out from the boys, or the cruisers from the racers.

Gery, It's not so much a complaint as it is a comment. Of course everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but the overall consensus feeling that I gathered from this thread (and my personal experience) is that the TIP tranny does NOT lag and furthermore 99% of drivers cannot take full advantage of the manual transmission's "precision" that you speak of. If you happen to be one of the 1% who can shift like a race car driver, then kudos to you. I'm really not saying this to be derrogatory or insulting to you at all. I just disagree with your comment that the PORSCHE TIP lags, although I would say that the AUDI TIP does lag.

A little fuel for the fire ( I said this in old thread on the same subject)... A Porsche with a tip is like sex with a condom.

Does that make a clutch pedal like "coitus interuptus"??? At least witha condom you don't have to worry about "over-revving" :-)

Of course, you get the fuel cut off at redline.

My only complaint about the tip is that it is self-learning rather than having distinct shift programs. Problem as I see it is that I go from slow boring commute (but ok w/ top down!) to redlining through back road twisties. Little in between. The transmission has probably learned something "average" which is not very appealing to the backroads. Of course the solution is simply to flick into "M" mode and do the shifting manually. No big deal, but having distinct auto shift patterns for "sport" and "cruise" modes would make the sporting drives in "A" more enjoyable. But like I said, all problems solved "M" mode.

Redcab- I don't think so. It learns within one or 2 corners that you are trying to go fast. Try this next time. Find your favorite road with curves. Go hard into the first turn, brake late and be going fast enough to load the suspension-the outside front should significantly dip. Then concentrate on pushing the throttle to the floor as quiclky as you can on corner exit. By that I mean the throttle must go all the way to the floor, and you shouldn't "feed in"" throttle but completely and rapidly depress it. If you keep hard on the gas to the next corner, when you brake, the tip will downshift going into the turn and it will hold the gear when you let off the gas. If you floor it on the way out, you'll get full red-line upshifts. The most crucial elements are the speed at which you stomop the throttle, and how hard you brake and corner. I learned it with Derreck Bell in the driver's seat with me in the passenger side. Initially, I wasn't loading the car enough. Try it, you'll like it. AS

AS - I'll try it, and I'm thinking of just the road to do it on. My only concern is that with my foot pumping the floor so much I'm going to see my speed well above the limit physics will allow me for the next corner. Maybe what I really need is a DE day. -jerry

AS - Just thought about your reply a little more...are you saying that the tip's program inputs also includes steering angle, braking %, suspension compression, in addition to accelerator position? That would be cool. -j

Great thread,...... I'd just mention that the Tip's used in the 996's are chippable and it makes a very nice difference. Shifts are quicker, full-auto upshifts are held to redline at WOT and overall, its much better behaved,... We've been pleased with the results and if anyone is interested, contact me directly for more info and details.

Redcab- my impression is that you've got to be braking hard and turning. Just braking hard and accelerating hard doesn't seem to get the aggressive downsifts under braking and prevent the upshift on cornering. Agreed that its easier to figure out on a track. On the street, the most you can generally appreciate is the change in the downshift timing and pattern (1 downshift or 2) dependent on how quickly you mash the gas. Slow push to the floor generally gets only one, but really fast and hard push generally downshifts 2 gears) The car quickly reads the depression rate of the throttle. In my experience, the button upshifts are hard to do at redline, wheras the full auto upshifts are right on red line. Lastly, it's much easier to learn a course with a 4 speed manual compared to a 6 speed. You wind up needing multiple laps just to figure out ideal shift points. The tip in full auto solves that, and one more benefit. There are some sweeping corners like the backside at Gingerman where you top out a gear in the middle of the corner. You can't upshift in a manual because the pause unsettles the rear and provokes a spin (if your're near the limit). The tip in full auto can successfully upshift in a sweeping corner and get the power back down, so the rear stays down and the car stays in control. I have absolutely lost it there when I tried the upshift in my Lotus Elise 190R. AS

Just to sum it up. It's great, but the little troll that controls shifting can fall asleep during commute and needs to be awaken.. BTW, maybe it's my troll in particular, but going from slow to fast shifting takes time, and I would preffer ability to control that fuzzy stuff

I'm very surprised that "chipping" Tips hasn't become more popular (or is it that Tip owners generally don't worry @ such things) since it works well and has fewer drawbacks than "chipping" Engine controllers. I've driven a modded Carrera Tip and was very impressed with the shift speed, low RPM operation, and overall feel. In fact, we kept a Tip "in the pack" at a track event last fall - many were amazed that an "automatic" could hang with the "sticks"..... J PS - yes, I'm biased. I own a Tip!

Maybe it's not true with Porsche, but I've always considered the tranny to be the weakest link in any car. That being said, I am very weary of "chipping" the tranny. I would be concerned about too many hard shifts and the like. BTW, I'd like to agree with AS about the shift patterns adapting VERY quickly. In fact last night I was tooling around town and decided that I wanted to have some fun and within a mile or 2 it was already holding gears without upshifting!

Jeff, I think you're quite right. I remember seeing one tuner evaluation in Car and Driver (I think) about 2 years ago. Like most independent reviews, there was very little to no performance gains to be had from engine ECU upgrades (turbos excepted). On the other hand, they DID get some pretty good improvements in the automatic transmission cars they tested after upgrades to speed up shifting. Andy

Talking about shifting at redline...isn't that too high for max performance? Doesn't torque band fade before redline, so wouldn't peak torque be the better shift point. (I'm no expert, but I play one on the Forums )

Trojan... I'd say just the opposite - in most (but not all) cars, the auto trans is the "strongest" link - much greater Torque forces than in an equivelent "stick". As far as the Porsche units, there's a good deal of cooling going on - and that' s usually the weakest link in auto trannys (more shifting = more fluid movement/pressure = more heat). In my own (very limited, to be sure) experience, the trans fluid has held up well under some serious abuse (whoops - did I just type that outloud??? Ok, no abuse - just hard use, OK?) You're spot on about the Tip adapting quickly, though. I don't have my data handy, but the Tip "adjusts" according to some 270+ "maps" utilizing a great deal of real time data, thus "learning" occurs within seconds. Older Tips (pre 2000, I think) used 5 maps and "collected" data over a period of time - taking up to several minutes to "change" modes. (sorry for being vague on the numbers/dates - I'm away from my desk/references) Andy, Now you mention it, I too recall such an article. Have to do some digging.... J

Don-W, I don't think so. Why would F1 cars shift at 19,000? Those cars make very little torque, but their high power is related to the amount of air and fuel consumed which is higher the faster the engine spins. The exceptions are cars like the early C4 Corvettes which made peak power at low rpm's (less than 5,000) by by recollection and were fastest if shifted at 4000. When I was racing a Can Am Lola in vintage, I asked my engine builder (Earl Gaerty of sprint car fame) where I should shift with an engine that made max hp at 6,800. Gaerte's advice was to take it past the peak power point (he suggested 7200) so the upshift brought you to just below peak hp after the shift. I continue to find that advice works well. In our cars (mine is an X50tt), I've found you just don't want to hit the rev limiter-that definitely seems slower. AS

Stem, your points are irrefutable, especially from me. It certainly makes sense.

Alexander...I found, as you have, that the "shift" while the suspension is loaded is one of the more remarkable things the Tip does. I like a six speed fine, but I ( and I don't think it is just me) don't get a lot of control out of the car when I shift in a hard turn!

Wow! It keeps going and going...I didn't realize the 'popularity' of my post.

Stem, You're advice is spot on - roughly go to the point in the HP curve above the peak so that when the upshift is completed you are at (or near) the torque peak (Paul Frere's excellent "Sports Car & Competition Driving" has the math to back it up). Great thread, not - a! ( but that avatar keeps reminding me I'm lactose intolerant.....) J

Alexander, I wasn't aware of this "rule", thought it makes sense. I'll have to try it (on someone else's car). However, isn't the 19K shift point for an F1 engine a function of a max displacement restriction (3 liters)? It seems that w/ each manufacturer's latest spec engine, they're squeezing a few hundred more RPM's out of it, as it's the only place left to go for more power. At Indy, Honda had their latest-spec engine turning ~19.5K, yet both BAR's grenaded if I remember correctly! BTW, I drove my first Porsche tip yesterday, in a C2. I plan to drive a Turbo tip today (car shopping for my wife, who doesn't like manuals). I'm sure I'll have a full report. Thanks, all, for the interesting and informative thread. -DT