996 vs 997 dilemma

Hi folks I've been a long time browser of the forum but just registered. Like everyone else owning a 911 has been a dream since I was a kid. I am finally in a position to pick something up. Ideally I wanted to get a 2006-2007 997 but I am constrained by my budget. Came across a 2004 C2 with about 35k miles on it, 18" wheels, Bose, PSM, heated seats and sport seats and was wondering how much you guys think this is worth. Dealer is willing to CPO it. Would I still need to do a PPI in this case? Cheers

Howdy. First time listener, long time caller. Few things. First, search function on the forum is your friend. Look at the hot issues for the 996 and the 997, and decide if you want to deal with those issues (IMS, RMS, etc). Next, if your budget is very constrained, a Porsche may not be for you. Specifically a 10 year-old Porsche isn't for you. If the entry price of the car is the end of your funds for your car, look elsewhere, or when your window stops working, you're done for. Next, the cars are different. Drive them both and see what you like. Is this your first Porsche? Next, why did you want a 2007 997? Was it for looks? Styling? "Newer car?" Next, the "worthy" price on a 2004 C2 with 35K miles and a few options is dependent entirely on the condition of the car. A dealer could charge as much at $45,000 for that car. Is it worth that? To someone, maybe. Finally, yes; ideally you would do a PPI on any used car, unless you absolutely know the dealership although the CPO can give you a bit of piece of mind. You don't have much time left to CPO a 2004 car, it being 2012 now; the 8-year CPO window is about to run out, and you'll want to know exactly what that CPO will/won't cover. So in either case, I still think yes PPI. If you're not willing to spend the $250 for a PPI now (or $100 without the compression testing), walk away and wait until you are to buy a car like this. Good luck.

Peter 642, appreciate your response. I've read through dozens of posts on this site and was of the understanding that the IMs issues, etc were more specific to the earlier models I.e. 99-02. Is this incorrect? I also thought getting a CPO would mitigate the risk. I tend to be very prudent with my hard earned money hence the reason I've capped my budget but suffice it to say maintenance or other minor issues would not pose a financial problem. I drove a 2008 and actually liked the 2004 more (go figure) - the 2004 felt more compact and raw. I do plan on getting a PPI done but was just wondering whether people here get it done even on CPO cars. There have been several discussions on the matter on this forum but nothing definitive. To answer your last question, given the choice obviously one would choose the 997 - it's newer, less likely to have problems and would retain more value.

The advice I would give to anyone on this is to "buy the best Porsche you can afford". With a few notable exceptions (996 Turbo > 997 C2, C4S; 996 C4S > 997 C2; 996 GT2 or GT3 > 997 GT2) the 997 seems to be the better buy (and a more comfortable ride, too). As prices for the 997s are expected to have their biggest proportional drop since their introduction once the 991s hit the streets, you may be better off waiting a few months for picking up your 997. I truly LOVE my 996 C4S, but if I had the means to get a brand spanking new 991 (will be close to $150K in Canada), I'm sure I would like that more...

One more note on your post, the earliest 997s have virtually the same IMS issues as the late 996s.

If the price is right for you, you like the car, and they will supply it with a CPO I would buy it.

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It's not just the earliest 997s... it's the 2005 - 2008 models. The 2009 and newer cars don't have an intermediate shaft, so the IMS issue isn't there.

Yeah down the road it will be nice to get the latest and the greatest. Right now I'm just looking for a daily driver. Envy you guys in the states though, you get a lot more for the money than here in Canada!

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Car is probably worth 33k - 38k depending on options, service/owner history, CPO etc. And yes get a PPI.

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So why not buy one in the States and enjoy the drive back to Canada, eh?

No. See above. And no; getting a CPO does not mitigate the IMS issue. Replacing and retrofitting probably does, but with these cars even that's not a sure thing....well, as close as you can get, anyway. Or avoid the IMS and go with Dennis' suggestion on the 2009+ models. That is correct. Your observation that you enjoyed the 2004 more is not a shock at all. The 997 and now the 991 models are built to be more comfortable, easier to drive, etc. Look at this year's recent ad campaign on busing your kids to school in a speed yellow 997. Folks "complain" that the 997 keeps them farther from the road. Having driven a 997 turbo, I'm not entirely sure of that. I can tell you that like Spender there, I too love my car but if a brand spankin' new 991 fell into my lap, I'd likely sell the C4S and drive the snot out of the new car instead. Keep all of that in mind if it's going to be a DD for you. Toronto gets cold, and icy and snowy. Assume you have another car, but there's nothing wrong with driving your C4 in the snow either, especially if this is a true DD for you. If your commute is short, and you like the 996 feel, I'd go with that personally. Spend the money on the later model (2004 if you can find one), get a 4 or 4S, and save the rest for the next car, when the 991 is old, and the 997 is cheap(er). Just my 0.02 Canadian cents that are now equivalent exactly to the US 0.02 cents.

I recently purchased a 2004 40th AE 996 with CPO. I did not do a ppi, prior to buying because I felt comfortable with the warranty. I do plan to take it to an independent shop to check everything and make any warranty claim that comes to light. Costco also offers an extended service plan in many states. I've already taken the car back to the dealer for several issues. Many are commonly reported on the 996 forum. Biggest issue so far was a rear control arm failure, poor gas mileage and a floating feeling at high speed. I'll see this week if the new control arm addresses these issues.

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Yes, but make that work for you! The Canadian Dollar is strong right now against the USD, at virtual parity. Lots of selection south of the border, and desperate vendors. Just buy American, then pay 5% GST plus 6.1% duty at the border (plus about $2,000 shipping depending where it's coming from). As for the importation process, it's so easy a caveman could do it!

I have been considering buying American as well - certainly more selection available but I thought duty was 6% and GST 13% - at least in Ontario? At that rate the only advantage to shopping down south is for the wider selection. Was considering a C4 as well but not seeing many around here surprisingly. Toronto gets cold in winter but the snow clears up quick. Also I live and work downtown so not much of a commute. The car will be for driving around the city - mostly downtown to be honest - I like my convenience I drove the C2 on winter tires and it felt solid. Surprised no one has commented on the headlights - it seems to be a major pet peeve around here. I do prefer the lights on the 997 but there has to be a balance!

I don't mind the 996 headlights. Really. It's a beautiful car, despite what the 993 or 997 folks might say. FWIW, a C2 with proper winter tires will do fine in the snow. You don't have to have a C4 or a C4S. They are nice, but not an absolute necessity for driving in snow. Tires make a bigger difference.

I agree with Dennis - the backlash against the 996 headlights seems a little ridiculous. It's not like you can see then when you're driving it, after all!

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yeh....Hey?

I absolutely love my headlights. From this angle, looks like a smiling dolphin.

The CPO should give you peace of mind against the IMS issue. I would still get a PPI however. Clutch brakes, tires and struts are potential expensive items that are not covered under warranty. It's not much fun if your new to you car is spending all it's time in the shop.

There are many vehicles out there that never suffer an IMS/RMS problem. My '01 has been just fine with routine oil changes (3-5k and fingers crossed). I'm not exactly in driver-friendly country here in New England, but as Dennis says, I put a set of Blizzaks on Cup 1s and she's good to go. Best of Luck to you, the shopping is half the fun.

haha oh noooo the headlights aren't round, may as well just buy a honda accord or something!

I agree I would say the headlights are distinctive on the 996 series, for ex: take a look at the 1998-2001? Porsche GT1 Le-mans class or Flying Lizard race cars they still look aggressive without round headlights.

If you're going to go for a 997 get a 2006 or newer. They upgraded the IMS in 2006, so it should statistically be more reliable. I'd absolutely get a PPI. CPO will help for a while with IMS or any other major issues.

Will do the PPI and see what the indy comes up with.

You get my PM?

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IMHO I would put off your purchase as long possible, the longer you wait the more bang you will get for your buck. In the next 12 months the 981 is about to move all prices down in perhaps the biggest hit to resale we've seen in a long time. And definitely go for a 997's engineering improvements (although I favor the 996 stlying across the board). You should be VERY aggresive in negotiating the price on anything that isn't a 997.

perfectlap - you've got me thinking again. I thought the 991 would impact resale on older models though not the 981. In any event, although I am enjoying the search it would be nice to have something in the garage come spring time!

actually I meant 991 but the 981 also seems like it's going to draw a lot of Carrera buyers into their first roadster since its unmistakably tailored more for a person who has at one point considered a 997 Cabriolet. Either way the supply of 996's up for sale is going to increase sharply. you know what that does to pricing. it also squares with the traditional idea to sit out one series before trading in, so the guys who skipped the 997 will get off the fence finally for the 981. Also, the economy and credit markets are improving while the Euro looks problematic so the 991/981 sales should be strong.

You might be right, but I think the launch of the 991 will initially effect the value of the 997. It could eventually trickle down to the 996 but may not be as significant. Time will tell. BTW I like my headlights.

The 991 launch will definitely impact 997 values. It's just the way this industry works. The 997 was produced in large numbers, just like the 996. It's unlikely that it will retain value or even appreciate in value like the 993. That's great news for people in the used Porsche market. The 997 will be more affordable than ever in the near future.

I agree with Dennis. I drive all winter in a C2 on Blizzacks. And the 996 vs. 997 is partly a personal taste thing. I prefer the comparative simplicity of the early 996s, and am a little frightened of the Panamera virus infecting the 911 line. Porsche has to be careful not to go down the road Mercedes went down over the last 50 years.

991 will push down all water-cooled prices. No one is going to pass up 997 engineering improvements unless the savings of the 996 really justifies skipping it. That will make it harder for a 996 seller to get a buyer's attention. I think if you're not planning to keep your 996 forever you'd be smart to sell asap. The 991 could be a sleeper hit since these cars are only becoming more reliable, also did the 997 S best the 996 GT3 right out of the gate like this? The engine and overall performance curve seems to be on a sharp curve upwards which will be an inverse resale curve for anything water-cooled that isn't a 991.

Just as likely that the 991 has a Halo effect, pulling up prices of nice, used 911's that are a little less car for a lot less money - Have you seen the List Price on the 991. Nosebleed!

The 991 pricing could lift 997 prices but unless there are more buyers to court both 996 and 997 (there is substantial inventory of both) someone is going to lose. In other words I don't think those 2nd hand buyers are going to split evenly. I'd wager that they (turn over buyers) will pereceive that the 997 will depreciate a slower rate than the 996 before eventually getting into a 991 five years down the road. So your argument could result in people crowding into the 997 segment.

The 991 will hit the 997 prices the hardest IMHO. 996 prices are already pretty low and will take a hit, but not to the same degree as the outgoing 997.

Update... Made a conditional offer (subject to successful PPI & CPO) to the dealer for the 2004 C2 at below asking price to see whether they would bite. Dealer claims it will cost 5k to "re-condition' the car for CPO. I'm gonna give them the weekend to think about it

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If the car needs 5k worth of reconditioning, are you sure you still want it? A car that is of CPO quality has to have brakes/tires at 80% or better. There is a whole checklist that they must complete but I seriously doubt it will take $5k unless the car is in "questionable" shape. Sounds like a sales tactic to me.

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Strange.....they let you walk away? Your offer wasn't enough. Expect the "Phone Call" in a day or two unless you did a Kijiji Lowball. Good Luck

Phone call never came from the dealer. I don't think my offer was low-ball. I expected them to at least negotiate. There are cars that have been sitting on their lot for months. They obviously know what they need to do to make it CPO. The search continues...

You can see '02 C2's in CA with 50-60K miles for <$30K list. An '04 with 40-50Km is probably a good deal around $35K. Do a quick search on Cragislist. I'd be concerned with such low mileage - if these cars have not been driven - they seem to be more susceptible to IMS issues.CPO would give you peace of mind for short time. If you can afford a 997 - go for it. - but again these can still still have IMS until 997.2 - so avoid very low milers. An '06 997 around here is going for around mid $40's (higher at dealer with CPO).

I guess 991 is having more impact than I thought .. look at this one http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/ctd/2830519763.html

That craiglist car is one basic car.

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it is low mileage, looks clean. a thorough PPI, maintenance history, good test drive, check paint and between fenders, body fitment, doors/hinges, DME scan, undercarriage at an indi shop. If does not show signs of odo rollback or accident history, I think it would be a great deal if "buyer" shows up with $35K cash deal.

In negotiations with a dealer for the 2004 C2 with CPO. I was upfront from the beginning that I would require a PPI. The indy I spoke to said the car would need to be in their workshop in order to do the PPI. The dealer is now refusing to allow that to happen. What a headache this search!

Sorry to hear. Not sure how a PPi can be done with leaving there dealership? Is a PPi really needed when you buy a CPO car? I would say a quick check of the computer for over-revs would be my Big concern. Good luck.

I'm 6'3" 250 and I've had both 996TT and a 997 C4S. You are more comfortable in the 997 if you are my size or larger.