Boutique oils?

Latest Excellence (June 2011) tech forum recommends changing to a 'boutique' oil for M96 engined cars because the mass-market producers are reducing the levels of the high-pressure additives Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphates (ZDDP) and Sulphated Ash/Phosphorous/Sulphue (SAPS) in their formulations. The authors note that they are "seeing more problems with wear on the internal engine mechanical systems, specifically in the area of the valvetrain." This is a fairly major change of direction from the traditional, "use Porsche-approved synthetic lubricants" party line that I have heard and followed for years. I read some previous Rennlist discussions on the topic (none on any boards that feature M96-engined cars interestingly), but they were older posts and none had such a specific recommendation from a reliable source. One last... I did not fail to notice that the article was placed adjacent to a ZIMS Autotechnik ad that featured Brad Penn oil prominently and specifically mentioned ZDDP. I'm not suspicious, but just saying... So, thoughts? Experience with boutique oils? I'm certainly aware of some of the brands, but never considered switching.

Brad Penn could possibly be the best oil currently available aside from possibly fouling cats from the heavy metal content. Brad Penn is the same oil, same prime 100% pure Pennsylvania base stock, same refinery, as the original Kendall motor oil when is was owned by the oil additive maker Witco Chemical. Kendall oils were a favorite amongst racers of all types, from Porsche roadracing to motorcycles and everything in between. Hondaline and Harley-Davidson motor oils were private labled Kendall before they decided to go with the lowest contract bidder. At least half of all racers at Speedweek on the Bonneville Salt were using Kendall. I used it exclusively for over 10 years racing and sold it since the '70s. When it got bought out by Conoco-Phillips the recipe changed and it's no longer the same stuff. Most all motorcycle manufacturers warn against using automotive oils in their products as expensive motor damage can result. This is becaus the absence of ZDDP and other sacrificial alloys.

what about those fancy brand like royal purple stuff ? any ZDDP in there ?

I am running Brad Penn, but will go back to what I had in the 996 (Quaker Q Horse Power) based on my indies recommendation even in the older cars. There is only one grade that works and is Euro spec, the rest are not - IIRC its the 10/40 but I could be wrong - its whatever he carries. Dyno results show significant change simply by changing the oil....numbers dont lie, he runs it in the 356, 73S and the 11' GT3RS

Mobil 1 10W-40 High Mileage and Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel have ZDDP and SAPS also (they are both SL rated). I have been running a mixture of the 2 in my Mercedes for a while. In my last oil change, did the same to the 996 (6 quarts of the high mileage and 4 quarts of the Diesel) Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel Chemical Name CAS Number Typical Value PHOSPHORODITHOIC ACID, O,O-DI C1-14-ALKYL ESTERS, ZINC SALTS (2:1) (ZDDP) 68649-42-3 < 2.5% Phosporous (ASTM D4951) 0.11 HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150�C (ASTM D4683) 3.8 Sulfated Ash, wt% (ASTM D874) 0.95 API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS/CI-4/CH-4/CG-4/ SM/SL/SJ Applications Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 is recommended for use in all super high performance diesel applications, including modern low emission engine designs with Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR). These applications include the following: •On-highway engines operating in both high speed/high load and stop-and-go conditions •Off-highway engines operating in severe low speed/heavy load conditions •Virtually all diesel powered equipment from American, European, and Japanese equipment builders •High performance gasoline engines and mixed fleets

Cocktail Time

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LOL...., and do it while having a rum and coke !!!

OH YEA..... Duffman is in the house !!

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Now you are talking...mine with Bacardi please, hold the lime.

I race on Amsoil 15-50 Dominator Race Oil.... http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/rd50.aspx

I love a good oil thread in the Morning! Lubricates like Victory!

motul 300v is probably one of the best oils out there in terms of shear and ZDDP. But its expensive and needs to be changed frequently. Most of the air cooled 993TT guys are now running either that or mobil Vtwin 20w-50

I learned long ago that the root of some of the issues that we see with the engine are oil related, especially on-track. I teamed up with Joe Gibbs Racing Oils and now we receive drums of our own blend of "Flat 6 Oil" which goes in every one of our reconstructed engines. I recently finished the 5-40 grade and we are awaiting the first production run of that to be delivered to us after testing it in our engines for over a year Standard off the shelf oils did not give me the same used oil analysis that we see from a purpose formulated anti-wear and detergency package. I found that off the shelf oils did not perform as well as the elevated oil temperatures that the M96 engine is known for. After we found the right package the rattles at start up were gone, hot operating oil pressures were higher and engines held better oil pressure on the track. You must be careful with running oils with high zinc and phosphorous that work better in vintage engines, they kill O2 sensors and catalytic converters. This is a hot topic and because of that I haven't been selling these products. I did the development to round off our engine program, so don't get the wrong idea thinking that I am here to sell you oil, because we have no plans to market it to the public at the present time.

another 5+ page oil thread... When I had my 996 I ran Redline 5w-40 in it exclusively. I'm a firm believer in quality lubricants.

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My favorite is Bacardi Limon, hence no need for the lime, but I will make yours with Bacardi Gold, no lime.... I am getting thirsty already.....

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So it sounds like Jake has jumped off the Porsche approved motor oils bandwagon. That is a strong argument. But the caveat warning about the danger to O2 sensors and cats is confusing. Is this a danger with a 'boutique' oil like Brad Penn? What are some other brands that meet those same standards? And I know this might seem like 'another *%$#'ing oil thread,' but that is only if you have not read the initial question. Again, the most recent issue of Excellence specifically recommends 'boutique' oil for M96 applications. My search of Rennlist found no discussion of the question of ZDDP or SAPS on the 996 or Boxster boards. This topic has been more of an issue for older air-cooled cars.

I have NEVER cared what Porsche recommended for oils. NONE of the cars that we see are under warranty, so its always a personal preference type of situation. With the M96 I have never cared what Porsche recommended, if I had we'd not be where we are today with open minded development. The oil we have co-developed with Joe Gibbs has an anti-wear and detergency package that does not harm O2s or cats, finding the sweet spot of these elements was critical and had taken a long while. What I have found time and time again is standard lubricants can't live long enough and maintain high pressure at the elevated temps of the M96, especially the 5 chain engines. These five chain engines have a ton of added friction and the oil soaks that heat up and has a hard time shedding it. Its not uncommon for oil temps to run 250F on the street under normal driving conditions and to be no where close to parallel with the coolant temps as many believe. I found this even in a 1998 Boxster with a 2.5 engine that was bone stock when being driven by my Wife. I have not read the Excellence article, but I'll make a point to do that.

If the oil runs that hot, would adding a supplemental oil cooler not aid the situation, regardless of the oil you're running? I am impressed with your determination to develop (in partnership) your own oil, but if you don't sell it to your customers, what's the point? They'll only be running that sweet sweet oil until their first oil change, and then they'll be back to the usual crap...

Absolutely.. BUT the ten million dollar question is WHERE to install the unit where it is efficient and isn't a road hazard. In a 996 there is very little space. We do sell this to the purchasers of our engines, just not to the general public via retail. We fire engines up on our break in oil, I run them on the dyno and for 300+ miles, then we swap to the service fill of street oil and generally ship the car home with 1-2 more service fills of oil in the trunk. We can fill orders through our store for anyone with an FSI serialized engine for future services. Thats no problem. Our purchasers are just as critical about this as we are, no one has to hold their hands to make them want to put the oil that was developed along side their engine into that engine. Its all about the big picture and creating one complete package without variables or compromise.

"Oil companies have been cutting back on the use of Zn and P as anti-wear additives and switching to alternative zinc-free (ZF) additives and ash-less dispersants in their new low SAPS oils since Zn, P, and sulfated ash have been found to be bad for catalytic converters. One such ZF dispersant/anti-wear additive is boron, which does not foul the catalysts in the particulate emissions filters or catalytic converters. For most owners, the reduction in longevity of a catalytic converter is a small price to pay considering the many thousands of dollars it costs to properly rebuild a Porsche engine. It is worth noting that most Porsches have lived the majority of their lives with high Zn and P oils as found in API SG-SJ oils as late as 2004, and we never hear of problems with their catalytic converters ." - Charles Navarro Look at Charles Navarro statements above, "..never hear of problems with catalytic...", but a few statements before he states that "it has been found to be bad for catalytic..." ... WTF??? I agree in part with Jack, disagree in part..., and will not argue points... As usual, the personal preference debate when it comes to oil. Everybody has an opinion, including me. I use the freaking Diesel oil because it has more of the anti-wear additives. Porsche has no problem "approving" or "recommending" diesel oils for their cars, just look at the attached "approved oils list" or "recommended", there are 3 listed.... Like everybody else, I ignore some Porsche recommendations (like changing the oil every 10-15K miles)....and do what I feel is best for my car... Let's the fireworks begin !!

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Good points, all of em. The biggest problem I have with oil *issues* is it takes so darn long to see the impact any one particular oil has on any one particular engine, that so many other influences occur that it makes data gathering almost impossible. all oil is snake oil. Especially anything recommended by the manufacturer while they are entered into a marketing partnership with said recommendation.

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Does changing the oil more frequently, like every 3k-5k miles, make a difference in how these lubricants perform? In other words if you change your oil frequently will it overcome the conditions you mentioned that frequently break down regular oils?

I have been thinking about diesel oils as a substitute too. A diesel engine with its compression ignition has to be tough on oil. Motorcycles are severe duty too. I bought Liqui Moly fully synthetic racing 10W-50 for my BMW K75s, I will have to look at it a little closer as an options. : http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/mediendb.nsf/gfx2/1502%20Racing%20Synth%204T%20SAE%2010W-50_EN.pdf/$file/1502%20Racing%20Synth%204T%20SAE%2010W-50_EN.pdf As of now I am running royal purple synthetic. It quieted down my 5 chain motor at start up. But, I'll take the Mount Gay, straight up.

FWIW, I've been running Schaeffer 9000 synthetic after reading about it in Larry Navarro's long dissertation on motor oils. Not Porsche approved, but the only other oil I saw with specs such as shear strength that were as good was Motul. The good thing about Schaeffer is that it's about $5 a quart.

Diesel oil used to be a better solution, but today its pretty much like any other standard oil.. Rotella saved people for years with vintage Porsche engines, but not since 2008 has it been very effective. Todays oils promote a cleaner engine, not a better lubricated engine. Thanks to vehicle leasing programs on that one, the big 3 and the API.

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Just a quick point that Porsche selecting Mobil oil as its factory fill oil makes sense. And it doesn't have to be a sell out on Porsche's part. Frankly if I thought this it wouldn't be a matter of which oil to use in my Porsche it would be a matter of how quickly can I unload my stable of Porsches before the bottom falls out and buy a car from an automaker I can trust to specify the right oil. Exxon/Mobil (but from now on I'll just type Mobil) produces alot of the synthetic oil stocks the boutique oils use. Mobil has good presence all over the world. If one looks at an up to date Porsche approved oils list there are more Mobil oils available with the WW (world wide) classification than any other brand. To reduce its costs Porsche can drive I would guess a pretty good deal for Mobil oil and no matter where you go for an oil change a Porsche dealer is Seattle WA is going to have the same Mobil oil that the dealer in Miami FL has on hand. In fact, the same oil is very likely available in Perth, Tokyo, Bejing, Bangalore, London, Berlin, Moscow, Zurich, Rome, Madrid, NY, LA, Springfield (MO) and Livermore CA, and so on and so forth. I agree with your point about oil and the time it takes for any oil related issues to make their presence known. Even with the devil's own oil in the engine (Mobil 0w-40) alot of these engines exhibit absolutely no signs of any oil related/lubrication related issues. They just run and run quite well. As they do with the heaven sent boutique oil du jour. Sincerely, Macster.

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I would seriously advise you to reconsider running a diesel oil in your Porsche gasoline engine. While diesel vs. gas engine compression differences look significant there are other differences that are more significant and diesel oils are specfically designed to deal with these. These are lower combjustion temperatures, lower operating engine speeds, higher levels of soot and diesel fuel contamination. (Drain a diesel engine even after just 500 miles of running after an oil/filter change and the oil is black as the ace of spades. Otoh I've sometimes drained my Boxster's oil after 5K miles of almost a week's worth of nearly continuous running and the oil still has a hint of its oil color to it visible in the oil drain stream as it pours from the engine to the drain pan.) Speaking of diesel fuel: Remember diesel fuel is a pretty good lubricant. Diesel engines, modern ones anyhow, use direct injection and require a fuel pump that not only only can deliver a slug of diesel fuel under many thousands of PSI but deliver an accurately measured slug of fuel and do it combustion cycle after combustion cycle. Diesel fuel pumps quite simply amazing devices. Anyhow, diesel oils have high levels of detergents to combat sludge development from all the soot and water and fuel contamination. The also have higher levels of anti-wear additives. These tend to increase the oil's viscosity and this can actually work against the oil -- especially in a higher revving gas engine -- causing the oil's temperature to increase, this coming from the increased friction the oil experiences from the heavy dose of additives. Not even Porsche approves Mobil's 'best' diesel oil for use in Porsches equipped with diesel engines. And furthermore, not even Mobil says its 'best' diesel oil is suitable for use in gasoline engines. Leave the diesel oils for diesels. At least consider running a Porsche approved oil in your Porsche. At least change the oil at the factory recommended frequency and ideally more often than that. The engine will thank you for this by delivering miles and miles of trouble free running. Sincerely, Macster.

"not even Mobil says its 'best' diesel oil is suitable for use in gasoline engines." With all due respect, I disagree.....read the product data sheet for Mobil 1 5W-40 for Turbo Diesel engines... "Applications Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 is recommended for use in all super high performance diesel applications, including modern low emission engine designs with Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR). These applications include the following: •On-highway engines operating in both high speed/high load and stop-and-go conditions •Off-highway engines operating in severe low speed/heavy load conditions •Virtually all diesel powered equipment from American, European, and Japanese equipment builders •High performance gasoline engines and mixed fleets •Refrigeration units API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS/CI-4/CH-4/CG-4/ SM/SL/SJ "Not even Porsche approves Mobil's 'best' diesel oil for use in Porsches equipped with diesel engines." You are correct, they have not approved Mobil's diesel Oil, but have approved 3 other Diesel oils for Porsches equipped with Gasoline engines...

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I'm not saying Porsche is using Mobil 1 strictly for the cash, if it was **** oil and bad for their engine, that would be professional suicide. I'm just saying if Shell sold a comparable synthetic oil that met the needs of the platform and were willing to spend more $$$ in marketing partnerships, Porsche would recommend Shell. It's not all that dubious. Let's face it....to a certain extent....oil is oil is oil. Most of the synthetics out there, at the right weights, would protect the flat 6 just fine. The arguments are always centred around which one is BEST. I don't think anyone will ever have a definitive answer to that question. My point is that Porsche doesn't recommend Mobil because it is the BEST oil for the flat 6, they recommend it because it's a good (even great) oil and they have a business partnership with them. So take that recommendation with a grain of salt. sean

Lubrizol makes the additive package for the Joe Gibbs products, not Mobil. The buckets of test oil that we receive in 5 gallon pails and 55 gallon drums come directly from Lubrizol.

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The whole point of this post is that a reputable source is questioning the assumption that 'most synthetics out there... would protect the flat 6 just fine." Another reputable source, good old Jake Raby, has now concurred with the idea that most synthetics in fact do not protect the M96 sufficiently, primarily due to the high heat levels that the engine routinely produces. The first step in the problem-solving process is to define the problem. For the time being I am staying out of which 'boutique' oil is better (or if we should use diesel oil... or humpback whale oil). The question now: Is it sufficient to stick religiously to a very short oil change interval (3k or so) using a Porshce-approved oil or should owners switch to a 'boutique' oil?

Short intervals would be of benefit if you stick with a standard oil. I mandate that the oil be changed in my engines every 5K, even using our oil. The reason for this is primarily linked to both fuel and coolant intrusion that isn't beneficial to the engine and purging the oil is a very good thing. The temperature that all oils are measured for viscosity at is much lower than the actual values that we see with the M96 engine. The oil may be a 40 weight at 212F and be rated as a 40 weight oil, but what is that oil at 230F? 250F? What about the track cars where we have datalogged a 265F oil temperature in the sump? The key was to develop an oil that would have extreme ability to retain its viscosity at excess temperatures, which increased hot operating oil pressures. This is why some people live by 50 weight oil in the M96, because by the time the oil reaches the 230+ temperature mark is no longer a 50wt and is now a "40 something" weight. The general consensus with the M96 engine is they fail on the track due to G force starvation and people do all sorts of things to keep that from occurring. What we have learned is that none of those things are really necessary if you have an oil that can withstand the temperatures enough to maintain pressure well beyond the typical 212F point. The G Forces do aggravate the issue, but the underlying problem is that the oil is too hot, too liquid and does not maintain adequate pressure and film strength to protect the components. Oils that are super hot and super thin also make their way past the IMS bearing seal much easier and begin to wash away the permanent lubrication from the bearing. I will say that any "full race" oil has a life span of about 700 miles before its packages are depleted and it must be changed. The UOA is horrible when running a full race oil on the street for 3K miles, but most "race oil" companies won't tell you that. They wish to capitalize on their racing background to sell you an oil, just the same way Porsche uses the GT3 to sell you an M96 powered vehicle. They could not be further from the same.

this response is to Ralph above, not Jake /edit really? that's not what I read... meh I've seen cars in Cuba that run with used vegetable oil. I watched the dude pour that **** in. Granted, he said he was constantly adding to it as his early 50's ford was burning it off pretty much continuously and it smells like a chip truck, but it ran. (poorly) I do not believe running the factory recommended oil at the factory recommended intervals is going to cause premature failure of your M96. Period. There is no proof of the opposite. Is it the BEST oil to use? Is it the IDEAL intervals to change? I'm not debating those points, but your car is not going to die if you follow the factory recommendations.

Its all speculation.. Even when we gather data, there are too many variables. I also do not believe that oil alone will kill an M96 engine early on the street, but do believe that it will on the track. I have ran an aircooled engine on suntan oil at WOT for 5 solid minutes TRYING to blow it up and it ran out of gas before it popped.

hahaha, I wish there was video of that!!!

Astroglide 5W-45 works better than ban de soliel.

It's all very good getting boutique oils etc. however what about us located at the other end of the world? I can't even get Mobil 1 0W-40 at the local car parts shop. I will be using 5W-50 Mobil 1 on the next oil change on June this year. The local OPC uses Castrol, 5W-40.

Hey 318touring, for those of us down under, I have had great customer service from these guys. I recently got some redline transaxle oil from them after being unable to find any shell transaxle on the shelves, and the dealer quoting me $63 a litre! Seem to have a decent range of other products too at competitive prices. Hope this helps mate. http://www.performancelub.com/

Lubri-moly for the car and a vodka gimlet with absolute citron to lubricate the driver.

I bought engine build assembly additive from the Chevy dealer...perfect.