Long Distance Purchase Questions

Any long distance purchase presents its own sets of complications. The community on this board has been amazing at helping to remove some of those complications. That said, the long distance purchase that I'm currently contemplating is a little different. The car is in CA. The owner/seller is in the UK. The buyer is in CT. The dilemma we're having is finding a way of making sure that neither of us feels overly exposed to risk. I'm happy to pay him cash when I get his clear title and he's happy to send me the title/extra keys when he receives my payment. See the problem? We both would like to find a known and reputable 3rd party intermediary/escrow agent (that won't charge an arm or a leg...or preferably anything lol) or some other solution to help mitigate the obvious risks. Any thoughts/recommendations? -Eric

Let me save you alot of headache, walk away as fast as possible. Car in CA, seller in UK, = Hell No! If the owner is legitimate then he should have already made the arrangments to have someone help stateside (actually possess the title, power of attorney's, etc..) Too many problems to list! There's no price too cheap to make me work a deal like this, sorry. I would keep searching, there are good 996's out there

The owner/seller DOES have the title. That's the problem. He was living in the Bay Area, moved to the UK for a short period that turned into a very long period and has since decided to sell the car he put in storage since it doesn't make sense to export it to the UK. He has no problem sending the title to an intermediary (like an attorney or escrow agent). He just doesn't want to send it to me before I send him payment. He also completely understands my concerns and hasn't tried to convince me otherwise. I just don't know anyone who does this. -Eric

Okay, help me out though, if he doesn't have a problem sending the title to an intermediary (like an attorney) he would not be actually giving you the title before he receives the money. He would be giving his title to his representative who would then be exchanging it for the money on his behalf. Maybe I'm missing something, but again I would not do the deal. Too easy to get burned, keep in mind most deals that go bad are across international boundaries. (cough Nigeria, UK, cough) Escrow is the only way to make it work

I think you're misunderstanding my question -- I'm looking for recommendations on an escrow agent. Trust me, I'm more than aware of the Nigerian letter issue. I've asked a number of people for opinions on that point and I've been checking into the seller's background each step of the way. So far, everything has checked out. I can Google with the best of them but I'd rather get a recommendation, if possible. -Eric

Question was misunderstood. GLWS

lol thanks...and trust me, I'm still taking baby steps with this one to make sure that I don't run into a Nigerian along the way.

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he means GLWTP (purchase...not sale) just a thought...there are LOTS of consignment houses...would the seller be open to consigning it then you buy it from them? (he would pay a fee, but if he says he already has a buyer, then they might do it just for paperwork fees plus a little) this way you are not out trying to do things you dont know how to do, they already know how to do the peperwork and bank stuff ?????

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this!

Probably a silly question, Eric, but have you determined that it is a LH drive car?

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The seller said that a guy by the name of Brian from Sonnen Porsche already came out and made him an offer. He said he might just sell to them and then I could by from Sonnen...which, after you factor in the taxes they'd pay, their proft, etc. PLUS my shipping and tax costs, it would probably make the car a bad deal for. lol there are no silly costs in this scenario! The car was originally sold by Rector. It's a US car and, also, someone from Rennlist took a look at it (with lots of pictures) so, yes, I've confirmed that the car exists, what it looks like, etc. -Eric

Buying it though Sonnen will save you lots of headaches. Call Brian and see if they are willing to work something out for you if this is a "back to back" sale. It may cost you a bit more but the other senerio presents too much risk.

What headaches will it save? The seller is currently asking $41K for the car...which, from everything I'm seeing for 2004 C4S Cabriolets is about $5-7K below what most are asking for these cars. The car is LOADED to the hilt, well cared for from what everyone is telling me (not just the seller) and low mileage. The seller has checked out with everyone I've spoken to -- people in the area know him, the car, etc. I'm all for making this easier and mitigating my risks but assuming Sonnens pays him $39-40K for it, add in cost to cover the taxes they're going to pay, their inspection costs and profit margin (which won't be insignificant) and all of a sudden I'm looking at a $45K car plus my own independent PPI and shipping...which will run about $47 or so PLUS my taxes (6.35%) and now I've got a $50K car. Seriously, am I missing something major? I'm not saying that sarcastically. I don't do this for a living but I'm not sure I see what adding a third party/dealer into the mix is going to save me. -Eric

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The secure low-cost escrow service you are after is www.Transpact.com . UK agency Government registered, secure, low-cost. [Declaration - I work for Transpact.com]

well to save $9k maybe its worth spending $500-1000 for some service. People know how to do this, just have to find the right place...check out the shameless plug above ?

My preference would be to use a company in the US -- shameless plug aside. The seller's preference was also to use a known third entity. It's nothing against Transpact.com, I just don't know them and $41K is a lot of cash to send to someone you've never heard of...let alone in another country. The seller seems legit, too...and my gut actually tells me that the whole thing is above board based on all of the information I have on him -- but this would add-in another element of uncertainty that I'd rather not do at this point. -Eric

Let me start by saying I am NOT offering my services as I don't want to get involved but I, as a lawyer, have been an escrow agent in a used car transaction before. A few years ago a guy from Canada was buying a vintage Datsun in Sacramento and I held the money. I charged approximately 10% and it probably wasn't enough. Worked out fine for everybody but I didn't like it since I am not set up to run that type of business. However, there probably are other attorneys who don't mind doing this type of service. I would think the minimum cost would be $3,000 or $4,000 but that's just a guess.

Yeah, I know -- I was hoping to avoid lawyers for that very reason. Adding 10% to the deal just doesn't make sense -- even if we split the fees. I know someone in the area (who is currently traveling, otherwise he would have looked at the car for me) who I can trust and would probably agree to handle the payment part for me. I could send him the check and have him exchange it for the title...IF the seller had a similarly situated friend (or independent 3rd party). I don't get the impression that he does and so therein lies the problem. I'll be talking to him again tomorrow to figure out the work around. Heck, I'd probably take a leap of faith and trust the Mgr. at Stevens Creek but I can't imagine them agreeing to put themselves in the middle of it. -Eric

Sounds to me too much drama over this particular car. Too many hurdles to jump. Why not start eyeing another vehicle to purchase instead?

Fly out pick up the car and drive it back.

Find me a loaded, low mileage 2004 C4S Cabriolet for $41K in the northeast...or anywhere. Most come up for about $48K. Btw, no drama from me -- just asking for ideas on how to solve a problem. -Eric

Fly out and inspect/buy the car then ship it back. Should cost about the same as 4-5 oil changes.

Eric: A couple of things. First of all, a dealer is not going to pay sales tax when they buy a car for resale. If that were the case, there would be no benefit to having a used car license. That will NOT impact on the value or sale price of the car. You should be able to find a bank to act as an escrow agent. Who is your local bank? Do they have a correspondent relationship with a bank in the seller's community? If so, bingo. You should be able to get that done. I certainly wouldn't pay $3K - $4K to a lawyer to do the escrow deal. Then, there are a lot of long distance car sale scams out there. When I bought my TT, I ran into a couple of them. Just be careful. If someone you trust (like a Rennlister) has looked at the actual car, and signed off on it, you're a long way to getting this done. But, do yourself a favor, if ANYTHING starts to look flaky about it, walk away FAST. It isn't worth putting $40K at risk on a long distance transaction. Trust me, as you get closer to completion, the deal will be harder and harder to walk away from. That can get expensive. larry

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Thanks, Larry. All good advice. If things get the least bit wonky, I will pull away fast. No worries about that. I'm encouraged by everything I'm finding along the way. A Rennlister DID check out the car for me -- took lots of pictures. The seller has also been very reasonable and upfront about everything with the car. The closest thing to pressure I've seen has been the fact that someone (Brian) from Sonnen was out to look at the car before me. Now, maybe that was a sales ploy. I've got Bank of America, Chase, Wells Fargo and a number of other large national banks in the area so I'll call them tomorrow. -Eric

Amazing- Willing to put $40K+ on the line, but not invest a few more dollars to have an attorney involved........but I am not surprised, how many times have I seen people buy houses and not want to spend any money on thier own counsel to protect their interest. Don't get me wrong, please, as I am not saying that the seller or the buyer is not intelligent or capable. Both have more than enough "savy" to put this together, but, in this case, given the concerns about location of the parties and the vehicle, the title, access to the car, shipping., etc., the parameters of the deal can be crafted by the parties and reviewed by counsel...... yeah, why spend a few grand for potential peace of mind? Hey, its only money........Good luck Eric is "sue esponte" a play on "sua sponte?" Then, I'd guess you'd be on your own.

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You've come to conclusions based on facts not provided. I don't have a problem investing a few more dollars. I simply stated my preference not to increase the cost of the transaction by 10% by using an attorney...which is why I was asking for alternatives (e.g., escrow). $410 be would an incremental cost; 10% or $4,100 isn't. If it's the only feasible way of doing the deal, I might give it some more thought but I'm still exploring use of a national bank or similar service. I have friends who own auto dealerships on the East Coast -- at least one of them recommended a bank to do this. As I stated, I was just looking for suggestions. You've also suggested that I have concerns about the "location of the parties and the vehicle, the title, access to the car, shipping, etc." none of which is really true. I've had the vehicle preliminarily checked, the seller is taking care of the paperwork on the title and will have a clear title at time of sale, and shipping is already figured in (as is PPI). Even the location of seller is becoming less and less of a concern as his background/story fleshes out; it's a logistical problem that we're working through. Please don't read other people's statements as my own. -Eric

Call a local dealership and see if they will help. Some will and some wont. Selerl might have to sell the car to the dealer for your sales price. They tack on a fee and then sell it to you. Might be able to get better finacing this way too. I would do that before I got a lawyer involved.

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It's worth a try. There are several Porsche dealers in the Bay Area. They might want $2,500 for their trouble/risk but might be worth it to give you peace of mind.

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Not sure about the two states in question, however here we would be able to apply for a duplicate title and transfer the car through the Bill of Sale rather than needing the actual title for the transaction. We would collect transfer fees and file the title request from your state and you would receive the title in the mail.

I don't know if that would work in CT. I can check with the DMV but I think we still have the document transfer problem -- when/how it's released. -Eric

I am not sure if I missed something but a few questions for you - 1. When is seller coming back from UK? 2. Can you guys draft a "notarized" contract perhaps? 3. If you know someone local RL member that can help will you be more comfortable doing the transaction?

Hi Eric, I know you do not know me too well but if there is anything I can do to help on this just let me know. (Former Porsche club of America regional president and long time forum member) By the way, I was the one who looked at the car in person and it checked out fine. David

Just curious Eric, How many miles is a low mile car? I have a 2004 C4S cab Excellent condition. Still with 1+years of CPO warranty left. I bought it last year and love it, but cant stop thinking about the Turbo I could perhaps be convinced to part with my baby...Let me know specifically what you are looking for, and I can let you know if my car has it. Jon

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Answers to your questions: 1. He's not (at least in the next month or so)...which is why he's selling his car...and at such a good price (IMHO). By the way, I confirmed with Rector that the RMS and IMS seals were done in 2006 and he replaced his clutch last year before putting it into storage! Unfortunately , he didn't also do his IMS bearing at the same time! 2. Yes, but enforcement of international contracts is difficult and expensive. An intermediary is our preferred method and based on our conversation, he will be engaging counsel in CT. I will deliver payment EFT from his counsel's office and will collect the title, extra keys and bill of sale at that time. 3. I know someone local and David also helped out by checking out the car. The problem is that he doesn't have someone on the ground local to handle it for him...but I think we've got that covered now. At this point, we're arranging final details but the goal is to have the car flat-bedded to the dealer for PPI (along with his separately packaged OE muffler, OE airbox and Porsche Sport Exhaust Tips which he's selling with the car). After PPI, assuming the car is acceptable, we'll exchange payment and title in CT. I will have the dealer do an oil change since the car has been sitting for a while and we'd like to have the car stay there for pick-up by the shipper (assuming the dealer agrees). I've confirmed from one shipper that their truck will be in CA next week. Any suggestions or comments on the process? David, thanks again for taking a look at the car! I left a message for Jeremy yesterday but haven't heard back from him. Jon, sent you a PM but you should know that the seller and I are both pretty close to finalizing details on the current car. -Eric

PM replied

I recently went through a similar long distance sale as the seller. In my case, I�m located in Canada, the car was at our vacation property in Florida and the buyer in New Jersey. One big difference is the sale price of the car was ~$4.5k so there was significantly less at risk, but I�ll give you our arrangement and maybe some of it will apply to you. Since the buyer did not have the option to look at the car, I gave him the names of several independent mechanics that dealt with the marquee and he selected one to conduct the PPI at his cost. Once He was satisfied with the condition and we had negotiated a final price, we made arrangements for the mechanic who performed the PPI to hold and store the car, I drafted a sale contract outlining the sale, then he sent funds to me via a bank transfer. Once the funds cleared and were in my account, I FedEx�d the title and Bill of sale to him. At this point the car was his and he made arrangements with the mechanic who agreed to store the car while shipment was scheduled. There was a great deal of trust on both our parts that was established after several phone conversations.

Seems that you are covering your grounds on the process. I will also share a similar experience as Aron did. I recently sold my Audi and buyer was from the East Coast. I suggested my local Audi dealer for PPI which he accepted. He 1st sent me a wire for $1000 to hold car and the remaining balance in about 1 week. We maintained communications via email/phone all the time. We did not use any escrow/intermediary as there was some level of trust. I promised him what I told him I will do and he did his part. I only emailed him a statement about the sale price and what I will do. This was a RARE/Special case were transaction went smoothly. Now we remain friends and share car stories

I think the seller and I are both at the point where we trust one another as much as anyone can trust someone they don't really know over the Internet. Based on the diligence I've done, my gut tells me that I have nothing to worry about. I get the impression that he feels the same way from his recent comments to me. Regardless, we're both proceeding cautiously and prudently. There's always a leap of faith that goes into buying a used car and, in this case, I haven't even driven or seen it myself?! I'm okay with some of the leaps I'm making but throwing $41K over the pond with the promise that someone will FedEx me "a car" is a little too big of a leap -- I'm just too risk averse by nature. For those who think, "yeah, but you can draft a contract to cover that," I invite you to check into the wonders and excitement of litigating claims between parties in different countries. -Eric

Sounds to me like you and the seller have worked out most of the details for a smooth transaction assuming the PPI goes well. GL and keep us posted.

Looking forward to seeing this deal consummated with a happy ending!

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Eric: I have worked with a lot of contracts in the business world, and I have drafted a few "agreements" for personal dealings. A contract is not a guarantee of anything. It is only as solid as the person who signed the bottom line. If the guy on the other end is interested in screwing you, you will end up being screwed in the end. The cost of forcing performance of a contract is usually prohibitively expensive. I have always felt that the purpose of a contract is to lay out the fine points of any agreement between two parties. It keeps the honest people honest, and makes sure that there are fewer issues to resolve. And, if you have done a certain amount of due diligence, then the contract just makes you feel that much more comfortable. BTW, don't worry about not having seen or driven a car that you're buying long distance. Lots of people do it. I bought a car in Houston, and flew down to drive it back to Chicago (that was cheaper than trucking it.) A friend bought a Turbo S in Seattle, and had it trucked to Chicago. No issues. I can't wait to see pix of the car when it lands in your driveway. Keep going as long as it all looks good. You shouldn't have to force fit the deal. All the best. larry

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Exactly my point -- which is why I haven't even talked to the seller about it. He's in the UK. Hiring foreign counsel and litigating internationally is a horrific mess. Our mutual focus has been on finding an appropriate intermediary -- which I fully support. While it's not a perfect solution, if I can walk into his attorney's office, review the documents (title and bill of sale) and confirm that they will be released to me as soon as my bank has released the funds to him via wire transfer, I can then click "send" on my computer to authorize the disbursement and we should be done. Of course this is a bit of a generalization of what will happen but I think you get the point. -Eric

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...not to mention different COUNTIES!

the big question is, did u PPI the car? if u are happy with PPI, u and the seller can both fly to bay area over a weekend, finish the transaction face2face. u may save money and time this way

Hey Eric, at least you know the car exists and drives under its own power right! David

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We're working on the PPI. As for flying in, he's in the UK -- an economy flight to San Francisco probably runs about $1,500-2,000 and the flight time is likely between 16-18hrs. I'm thinking he's happier doing this from abroad and saving himself the time on a plane...as am I for that matter. lol YES!!! lol -Eric

I remember getting an email from someone that had a 996 Targa for sale, which is what I wanted. Oh, they had moved to the UK, and now were unable to get it shipped to them, because of the cost of import duties and such. They had it all "boxed up" and ready to ship, and would just as easily have it shipped to me in Chicago as to them in the UK. ALL I needed to do was wire the money to their intermediary. They were using Google Checkout, and the shipping company would drop the car off in Chicago for me to inspect. If I liked the car, the intermediary would send the money to the seller in England. If not, they would return the money to me. "Don't worry, you will have 7 days to inspect the car." Well, I wanted someone to inspect the car BEFORE I sent them any money. Nope, couldn't do it, because the car was already boxed for shipment. "Really, you can trust me!!!" Yeah, sure. Passed big time on that one. Then there was another that had a car for sale for cheap money, and told me that it was either sell the car, or have their house foreclosed. Which would you pick? Again, using Google Checkout, again not able to see or inspect the car. Again, I would have 7 days to inspect. Again, I didn't even respond to the email. You sound like you have made a lot of progress with a reasonable seller. You know that the car exists. A Rennlister has looked at it. Now it's a matter of the PPI, then you should be good to go. These things really do feel scary, but you seem to be moving cautiously. That's the start of a solid, honest purchase. Now, GIT 'ER DONE, so we can see the pictures!!!! larry

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That would have been the deal killer for me. Yeah, because their intermediary has an obligation to you? No, of course not. Oh, and as far as I know Google Checkout is basically like Paypal. Once you release the funds, they are in the seller's hands. You have no ability to retract the funds. They're gone. Well, aren't they so nice! "If you don't like it after 7 days of abuse, don't worry...we'll take it back! Why? Because we're good people!" lol What's that saying about walking and talking like a duck? I'm working on it! -Eric

Attorney engaged. Seller agreed to use local counsel I've been using for commercial issues. He's cutting us a great deal...pennies in the grand scheme of things. PPI coming soon! Stay tuned. -Eric

Would you believe this is still going on? Talk about dying a slow death or dragging on a deal. Possible PPI tomorrow if we can finalize the terms on the escrow tonight. The car is actually sitting at the dealer already so I'm cautiously optimistic. -Eric

Hope this all works out for you. If it does, you will have a great story to share AND a new Porsche. (fingers crossed for you).