Clutch / RMS / IMS - In progress - few questions

So I'm doing my clutch, RMS, IMS and a couple other things right now. Started the project last weekend and in my minimal free time I've got the slave cylinder off, linkage off and I'm ready to drop the transmission, but I have 2 questions first. 1) I see in the Porsche WSM that their engine brace connects to a little metal nub behind the oil pan and in front of the transmission. I was going to brace a 4x4 post under that to hold up the engine. Is that all I need to do - can somebody show an example of how they did it? No bracing under the oil pan, right? This is the nub I'm talking about : The bottom center of the picture. 2) I need to rotate the engine to get it to TDC before I put the pin in. I've never done this before, so bear with me. I'm going to turn the crank pulley clockwise using a socket on my breaker bar. Do I need to take the spark plugs out before I can rotate the engine by hand? How much resistance should I expect? Oh yeah, thanks to Shark Attack. I've been using your step by step thread as a guide. It's done me well up to this point! Everything has been smooth sailing so far. Ben

1. Yep, that's how Kyle did it. https://rennlist.com/forums/7295368-post106.html I used a truck scissor jack. 2. Correct. No need to remove spark plugs, but be sure the trans is in neutral. It will be difficult to turn, be sure to use a 24mm socket. Rotate slowly. Easier to rotate with plugs out though.

You really don't need to take the spark plugs out, you can easily rotate the engine with them in.

Thanks guys, got out in the garage today and built a nice engine stand + pinned it at TDC. Turning it over was actually pretty easy. I think I over engineered the crap out of my engine stand - using the same 4x4 post principle that Kyle used I also added bracing to ensure it doesn't fall over.... ever . Got 3 of the 8 transmission bolts out tonight. Bolt #1 way up top was a b%^$. It was nearly impossible to get out. Bolt 4, the odd shaped one, concerns me. There appears to be some corrosion on the bolt itself and the head is almost stripped. I got a T50 to take it out finally, but I'm worried the bolt is destroyed. I'll have to go get a new one at the dealer when I pickup some new flywheel bolts this weekend.

I use about 3ft+ of extensions with a swivel to get to the top bolts.

+1 for long extensions!!

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+2! Disconnecting te axle flanges from the transmission in a couple minutes with knuckles in tact wrenching from outside the calipers makes the 3ft extension totally worth it. pretty sure northern tool stocks them for a decent price.

..

You can safely lower the engine a little bit (but not TOO far so it falls off) the rear mounts. Just unscrew those two large bolts a little bit. There's plenty of thread on the mounts so you'll know how far not to go. Then you have another inch or so of breathing room to get your socket up in there.

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Ahhh the infamous triple square XZN bolt. I replaced mine with a CV bolt of the same specs, but with an allen head. Much easier to deal with than triple square.

Hey Logray, where did you get the replacement bolt from? I've been thinking that I'd rather have an allen or true torx bolt on there anyways. Can you tell me which bolt to get? BTW, the bolt was nearly destroyed before I got to it. Looks like the transmission has been off before. The car was always serviced (according to the logs I do have) from the Porsche dealership near Beverly Hills, CA. I just found 2 sources for flywheel bolts, so hopefully I'll be able to pick some up on my way home from work today. One less reason to stop over the weekend if I get that far. Thanks!

Ummmm 900-067-229-01 or 900-067-123-09 IIRC, they are both cheap. Buy em both, use the one that fits. I think it's the first one.

Awesome, thanks! So, got the transmission off today (woohoo!), clutch cover (one stripped bolt ) and flywheel. Now I'm looking for opinions on my flywheel - I can tell it's been resurfaced recently has it has orbital sander marks on it. I'd really like to reuse it, but let the comments rip. On another note, I *think* I have the revised 997 RMS already installed. There's very little oil leaking, if any. I think it's basically just dust from my clutch. I'll get the big camera out and take some pictures. If so - I'm going to leave well enough alone. RMS was really a 'do it if it's not the 997 part' job for me. I trust the Porsche mechanic to install that thing correctly more than I trust myself. Finally, some pictures of my over engineered engine brace (with a hi and lo setting to access bolt #1 on the tranny). I think I win the award for doing this job in the smallest garage.

Nice work. Do you always prefer working upside-down? My head would start to hurt with all the blood rushing into it. BTW, for your DMF, if you decide to reuse it: check out this TSB... very important to test the DMF to make sure it is still good (resurfaced or not... and on a different subject valid or not, I've been told by a couple machinists you can't "truly" put a new surface on a DMF because it could damage the springs??? , and they recommend replacement if the surface is too far gone)! http://www.renntech.org/forums/index...ownload&id=145 Neat trick though how you have the car flipped upside-down on the ground and the stand supporting the ceiling if you are in fact working right side up.

Once I figured out how to reverse gravity, it made jacking up the car that much easier. You might not realize it - but my engine stand is holding the engine down - not up Anyways, chain tensioners just came out. I want to quadruple check - only remove the main tensioner (passenger side front of engine) and 1-3 tensioner (drivers side facing down). Need to run out to the dealership to get new flywheel bolts and now new clutch cover bolts. Going to get that CV bolt too. Finally - the freaking IMS flange bolts are so small I only have 1/4 sockets for them. Need a 1/4 to 3/8 adapter... I don't want to go buy a 1/4 torque wrench.

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Well this may not go over well, but this is how I did it, and how Kyle did it and probably many others who have a 5 CHAIN motor (3.4L 1999-2001). Technically by procedure you are supposed to also remove the bank 2 tensioner which sits right beneath the A/C. You have to remove the T/B, T-plenum behind it, then the A/C. Once you have the T-plenum behind the throttle body removed, with your left hand you are able to feel the rear bolt on the A/C and slide a socket extension down between the psngr intake plenum with your right hand in to remove the rear A/C bolt. Removing the A/C really is not as bad as some may make it sound to be, but it is a pain in the butt. You have to siphon out the P/S fluid too, and remove the P/S reservoir to get the A/C out. As well as some wiring and stuff. The new paddle/chain tensioner for bank 2 has a 12mm IIRC allen head, so can possibly be accessible without removing the A/C. Having removed the engine now a couple times, if I had to do another IMSBR I wouldn't hesitate to take the extra insurance of removing the third tensioner and also using the tools to lock the cams in place (since I have them now). AND you are supposed to lock the camshafts in place so they don't move... this is a must of course on the 3.6L. But again I didn't remove bank 2 tensioner, nor lock the cams, and some other folks didn't and everything was OK. Did they gamble a little? Maybe, but there is actually a simple way to double check nothing moved out of place... What I did for a little extra insurance. If I were you once you are done assembling. I would still buy a couple cam plugs as well and remove the exhaust cam caps (bank 1 front of engine drivers side bottom, bank 2 rear of engine psngr side bottom) and rotate the engine 720 by hand clockwise to make sure the marks line up vertically with the cam cover at TDC. A 1/4" torque wrench is a good investment. A quality one has very small inch lb adjustments that the larger ft. lb wrenches do not have.

FWIW I did mine the way you described,set tdc,pulled main tensioner and the 1-3 tensioner,have your drain pan ready

Also read this link from Wayne. http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...ft_Bearing.htm Has great tips such as freezing the new bearing/etc.

Ok, I'm stepping back for a minute here. First, I didn't think about the fact Kyle was working on a 3.4. The Pelican article uses some different techniques than I planned (but my bearing has been in the freezer all day). Second, I took the flange bolts off and the support nut. I somewhat expected the flange itself to come off easily. But it didn't. How much resistance did most people have getting the flange itself off? The center stud doesn't look like it's leaning either way - so I don't think there's tension on the IMS. Why do you say for the 3.6L the cams *must* be locked? I figured if I had it pinned at TDC, then I'm good. I plan on rotating the engine 720 after getting flywheel back on - to check for interference (both pistons / valves & nuts on flange.

^^definatly +1 on freezing the bearing. I forgot to freeze mine and would have had to beat the he'll out of it to go in(which you don't wanna do) Put it in freezer for about 12 hrs and tapped it in just like in Kyles video

Eric, what about getting your flange off? Am I being overly cautious here? The pelican article talks about using screws to hold the IMS crank pulley in place during installation. Although that doesn't sound like a bad idea, I used the pin to hold the engine at TDC, which should do a similar thing?

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Well if you did your homework... Not a ton of resistance, but if you are feeling a lot and you pop it out then be prepared for the ims tube to change position and/or chains to lose their timing and jump. The 3.6L has a much different chain design than the 3.4L. Because of these timing chain design differences the engine is MUCH/CONSIDERABLY more likely to jump timing if you don't lock the cams down. Let me put it this way. If you don't lock the cams and your timing slips, then you may potentially need to remove the cam covers to correct the chain positions and/or at the very least retime the enigne as well. Is that something you are prepared to do? IMHO, better to just source the cam locks than take the risk (which I believe LNE now provides with their tool kit). You should rotate to check timing as well, not just to check for interference. The 3.6L is a different animal than the 3.4L...

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Wayne pioneered an amazing technique which is totally different than the LNE sanctioned procedure. Both in practice have worked, however they are carried out completely different. ESPECIALLY FOR the 3.6 the following is true. In the LNE procedure, you lock the engine at TDC with the pin (prevents accidental rotation of the camshaft), lock the cams in place (prevents timing chains and timing from slipping), and release as much tension on the chains as possible (remove ALL THREE chain tensioners). In Wayne's procedure you use some special studs he provides to "PIN" the IMS tube from moving. The key with his procedure is that the engine is NOT at TDC, rather somewhere else which allows the studs to contact the intermediate shaft tube flange and lock it in place. Totally different procedures, don't get them confused, but his link does provide tons of useful background information.

My flange was hard to come out because it was the upgraded version. I had to tap the ear of it with a brass hammer to break it loose and then was able to work it out of there. I only pulled the two tensioners, with motor pinned at tdc. I did not lock my cams,but maybe I just got lucky. After I put it together I turned by hand for about 6 revolutions.

Ok ok! I thought I did plenty of homework, but maybe that involved reading too many success stories without locking the cams. My last work of the day was to pull the exhaust (planned anyways for PSE hack) and pull out the cam covers. My first work tomorrow will be to install the cam locking tools. You're right - I bought them, might as well use them. Just as a side note to future wrenchers, pulling the cam covers is a joke compared to pulling the transmission. I don't know if mine is the upgraded version or not, but the Pelican article mentions having to tap on the flange to rotate it as well. I don't think there's actually any force pulling on the IMS itself, it's just the flange superglued to the back of the engine. One final thing - is there a picture showing the cam shaft locking tools in place? I'm not totally sure what I'm doing there. Thanks again for the help guys!

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Good choice. Yes, removing the camshaft end bearing caps (plastic things) is easy, just poke a small screwdriver carefully through the center. Don't damage the expansion plugs in the end of the camshaft, and pry. On the other hand REMOVING the camshaft covers IS certainly not a joke. With the chains tensioned, there is most certainly force on the intermediate shaft. Something like this, you'll get the general idea with your tools (use them):

Ah ha! I found this over in the Boxster Pelican Forums . This is exactly what I'm looking for, even if it's not really a 3.6L. I guess my confusion comes from the fact LN only provides 1 locking tool and then says 'If two sets of cam locking tools are available" you can use both. Ugh, why not include both? So anyways, say the timing does go out of wack, how much would the cam shaft deviate? Would it be discernible to the naked eye?

Well yeah you got the idea about locking, good work. As for locking both sides, yes that is a little odd... but if it were me I would lock 1-3 in place if you aren't going to remove the tensioner for 4-6 on the opposite side of the engine. Since the tension will be relieved closest to the bearing on the 1-3 side, you want to secure the cams from moving position. Yes the idea is when you remove the chain paddle tensioner the chain could skip, or when you are pounding away at the bearing it could skip. By how much, tough to say, perhaps 1 tooth or more. But yes you would be able to see it ... If you happened to have read through this entire article, there is a long section on how to check the cam timing when you are done: http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...ft_Bearing.htm Search "Checking Camshaft Timing" in the above link.

When I replaced my IMS, I set the crank at TDC, locked it with a dowel and pulled two tensioners, but not the tensioner under the AC compressor. I did not lock the cams. I had a '99 with a 5 chain motor. The 5 chain motors are much less likely to accidentally move than the 3 chain design. Many people have done it this way without incident. In fact, I am not aware of anyone that has had a problem with the 5 chain design. If you find my thread you will see that even Jake notes that "practical experience" shows that the 3rd tensioner isn't necessary to remove. It's because the chain for the passenger side connects to the crank shaft at the rear of the motor where the crankshaft is pinned. The3rd tensioner that was left in place can't exert a force strong enough to shift the IMS shaft out of position at the front of the motor where the bearing has been removed. Granted, there is more risk to doing it this way, and for some people any assumption of unnecessary risk cannot be accepted. But a little common sense along the way in watching the IMS shaft position will tell you if anything has moved and whether you better verify your cam timing when done. It's the risk / reward formula in play. Your risk appetite may vary.

Since the camshaft plugs cost $8 and you just need a few of them, it makes taking the risk of not verifying cam timing when you are done seem penny wise and pound foolish.

Camshafts are locked. I locked the 1-3 camshafts with the big locker and decided to use the little on on the bottom 4-6 camshaft (exhaust?). It was actually one of the more difficult steps so far, the LN tool is finicky. Just word to future users, the clutch cover bolts fit perfectly to secure the locking plate. I was going to replace my clutch cover bolts anyways, so this was a good use for them. Before locking the cam shafts I carefully put the flange screws back in (finger tight) and put the tensioners back in. Now I'm going to go back, take the 2 out, pull the flange bolts and get the cover off. I had a feeling getting the locks in place would be hard (from reading around last night), didn't want them to slip in that process.

What is the engine you are working with? 5 chain or 3 chain?, single or double row? It's been a while since I did mine and I can't remember the differences from looking at your pics.

I'm on a 996.2 3.6L 3 chain engine. This should be a single row bearing.

OK, you shouldn't take the shortcuts available to the 5 chain motors. The 3 chain motors have lower resistance to rotating so everything should be locked down. Although, the reasoning regarding the passenger side chain tensioner placing a load on the front of the engine at the IMS shaft bearing does not seem to be different than the 5 chain design. If the drive belt pulley is locked, it in turn locks the IMS shaft from ROTATING via the chain which connects the crank to the IMS shaft. This chain connection takes place at the rear of the engine at the opposite end of the IMS shaft from the IMS bearing. Of course, the end of the IMS shaft at the IMS bearing where you are actually working can move if a side load is placed on it, for example by the drivers side cam chain. But that's why you lock the cams and pull the tensioner for the main chain and the driver side cams. Once you have actually done an IMS bearing replacement and can visualize the "load path" of the valve springs/lifters, cams and cam chains and how they interconnect, you can see how unlikely if not impossible it is to have the passenger side cam tensioner affect the IMS shaft. You will note that Jake has stated that these motors have cam lobes positioned in such a way that when locked at TDC/BDC that there is NO PRE LOAD arising from the cam springs against an eccentric lobe of a camshaft, such as you would expect to find in other OHC designs. This preload would cause a camshaft to twist with chain tension removed. Not the case here though. But, I speak from successful IMS bearing replacement experience with the 5 chain motor, which is different than a 3 chain motor. Definitely advisable in all cases however, to pull the cam plugs and verify cam alignment, and hand crank to verify no interference before starting. The Pelican site has a good pictorial for that step.

Well this is now a clutch & RMS thread! Did the whole procedure 'by the book', besides pulling the 3rd tensioner. Locked out 3 of 4 camshafts (I know, overkill) and checked my timing basically after every step. The IMS flange itself was pretty easy to pull off once I tapped it slightly to rotate. 2 pry bars gently helped pull it straight out. Next using the bearing puller the IMS itself slid right out. The only difficult part was tapping the new bearing back in. Took a little more effort than I expected, even after being in the freezer all night. At this point I rechecked my timing (still fine, but considering the locks were in place it better be!), installed the tensioners, removed the locks and rotated the engine 1440 deg (4 full rotations). Checked timing after each 360 and it was fine every time. No interference. Success. For those of you who are interested, there was a good amount of oil in my IMS tube and it stunk like awful burnt used oil. I pulled off one side of the IMS seal and oil just dripped out - there was no grease at all in there. I can't tell if there's actual damage to the ***** or races but I'm inclined to think no. Just another data point. So - next question. My RMS seal is currently ~11mm below the crankshaft. I verified, it is NOT the 997 revised seal, but it's also not really leaking. I think I'm going to leave well enough alone until my next clutch job. Does anybody think this is a terrible idea?

If it's totally dry I wouldn't touch it. That being said, the revised PTFE seal is really really good. And removal/install of RMS is a cakewalk compared to the IMSB procedure. If you have a tool to properly do the RMS, get er done. Nice work.

Consider how little the RMS costs, how much time and effort it took you to get to this point, how soon you are likely to be changing the clutch the next time, I'd say it's a no-brainer to get the revised RMS in there now. I'm still seriously debating if I will do all these work myself, but if I do I'll likely drop the engine along with the transmission to ease the pain & suffering of changing the AOS, the plugs etc.

FYI Flywheel Can the dual Mass Flywheel be twisted approx. 15mm in each direction, left/right, and does it return to approximately its initial position? If so it is good. Can the DMF be twisted beyond dim stated above without a noticeable increase in the spring force? Or is it fixed (no rotation?) if so bad TSB 911 (996) 8/02 1360 Dual Mass Flywheel Check procedure http://www.renntech.org/forums/index...-procedurepdf/ Can the dual Mass Flywheel be twisted approx. 15mm in each direction, left/right, and does it return to approximately its initial position? If so it is good. Can the DMF be twisted beyond dim stated above without a noticeable increase in the spring force? Or is it fixed (no rotation?) if so bad

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My GF asked if I had one.... and if I do.. why I dont use it

Before you put it all back together, how was the AOS? The AOS is a really nasty job made much simpler with the trans out. I did both the AOS and RMS when I did my IMS bearing. Neither was leaking or showing signs of trouble. but the parts were cheap and the labor high to do it later.

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I was seriously considering this as well going into the job. My plan was to make a pelican order half way through (aka tonight) and get one if necessary. My AOS turned out to be 100% dry. I found this note in the pelican article a while ago and made sure to check it (didn't know it was the actual TSB). Checked mine out - it's perfect. Interesting note - I was at the Porsche dealership by me yesterday for flywheel bolts. I asked the kid behind the parts counter 'I hear there's a TSB on the DMF, can you tell me about it?'. His response, after looking at the computer for a few minutes 'Hmm, it looks like it just says a note to dealers not to replace them under warrenty'. Not terribly helpful. That was my feeling too. I left it - the clutch it back on now so no going back. RMS will have a sign if failing, unlike the IMS. So this is actually a big question. I put in a Spec stage 2 clutch thinking my old one was pretty much not slipping but too weak for my preferences. Then I took the old clutch out and found the flywheel side of the disc nearly gone. To the rivets. I didn't expect it to be that low and now I'm thinking it was slipping more often than I thought. The new Spec clutch might end up being too strong and I might be in there soon to take it out! If I get 20k before I drop the trans I'll be thrilled. That's probably 4 years of driving considering this isn't my daily driver. If I don't - well - this is enjoyable anyways.

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Great tip. Thanks!

A bunch of people have referred to my article in this thread, but I'm not sure the link has been posted. Here it is here: http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...ft_Bearing.htm Thx, Wayne

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Great stuff, hey since we have you here, hows that 996 book coming along?

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We're working on it right now, should be coming out in 2012! -Wayne

Hey Wayne, thanks for stopping by. Even though I didn't buy the bearing from Pelican, I get almost all of my other parts from you guys. The write ups are excellent, I'll be picking up a copy of your book when it comes out. So a little progress update here. I got the transmission back on today, reconnected the shift linkage, slave cylinder, etc. Put my new cam plugs on as well and verified for a 3rd time I didn't muck with my timing. I also changed the gearbox oil while I was in there (forgot how bad that stuff stinks!) and changed my serp belt. All in all I've really only ran into one problem today. I put my airbox back on and the trunk won't close?!? I keep hitting the trunk lid on the tube from the airbox going to the intake. It's like the whole thing should be shifted over by a couple inches. I can't explain it - looks like it's put together properly until I close the lid. Tomorrow I'm going to adjust the parking brake, bleed my brakes, change my pollen filter, get my exhaust ready for the PSE hack and change my spark plugs. Hopefully I have her back on the road by Tuesday/Wednesday (which is supposed to be good weather in Seattle).

Hello all, I just got a 2000 C4 Cab. Am I going to have to worry all the time about the IMS coming apart and my engine falling apart? Thanks, Cory in Reno

Yes, it's compulsory. Especially for 2000 cabs in Reno. 5X normal.

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-you-post.html

(this is why I take mine to the shop)