General Pricing Confusion

I'm still struggling a bit with what is/isn't a fair price. I think I have a pretty good idea on 2002 models but things get murkier and murkier with 2003 and 2004 models respectively. Add CPO into the picture and I feel kind of clueless. So, for example, I found a dealer with a CPO'd 2004 C4 Cab with about 31K miles on it. NADA shows the "retail" value of that car as about $47K and average/clean trade in as $38K/41K. Does that mean under $47K is a decent deal since it's a CPO'd car (which means it's from a dealer)? How about $45K? On the other hand, there's a CPO'd 2004 C4S with about 21K miles (and fewer options) that's advertised at $48K. NADA retail is $50K and average/clean trade in is listed at $41K/43K respectively. Doesn't that kind of make the CPO'd C4S Cab a steal? From what I've gleaned from posts on this site, NADA info and on other sites, '02 C4 Cab models seem to be in the $32-35K range depending upon mileage, equipment, condition, etc (give or take $1K). Is a 2004 model really worth up to $10K more...or is it the dealer/CPO'd aspect that's running the price up? Separately, on a 2004 model, I believe CPO would add up to 2yrs/100K miles of warranty coverage. Does that cover things like IMS failure? Sorry for all of the questions but I really appreciate the insight I've received from people on this board. Thanks! -Eric

Yes it's confusing, and yes the CPO will cover the IMS failure. You just need to find one that you like and feel is a good deal. The CPO costs the dealer about $2500-3000 to put on the car.

Price is always a tough question. Market value simply means that something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. I bought an 04 996 C2 in August of 2007, 24k miles with CPO for $51k - sticker was $86k. I always thought I paid too much (I always think I paid too much). Many folks flat out told me I paid too much - except for the service manager who told me that after I realized the value of the CPO I would change my mind, and a friend who owns a few high line car dealerships who told me I paid the right price and gave me the price/value explanation. I can tell you that the CPO covers just about everything and it is basically the factory warranty extended for 2 years beyond the original expiration or 100k miles - for me that included squeaks and rattles - new transmission, complete left bank lifter replacement, 6 coil packs, oil pressure sending module, and other misc. odds and ends that I always expected to pay for but never had to - plus decent loaner cars for every service. The only repair I ever paid for was the starter interlock switch at the clutch. It doesn't cover tires so if you run the specified "N" Spec tires and you drive it, and I mean "drive" it, you might want to fund your own tire escrow account. I absolutely love the car and typically it only sees the garage overnight, and to everyone's disbelief I drive it daily throughout the winter as well. I have read stories here of folks who got a "great deal" on a 996 - complete with shiny pics - who later continued with posts about how do I fix this, can I do it myself, how much does this cost, I can't believe my motor blew up. So - it can be a lot like pay now or pay later. It doesn't sound like you are looking at a spread of 10's of thousands of dollars - so my personal non professional advice is that you will know "your" car when you see it and drive it - if it is with in your means or budget just buy it and drive it. I bought the one I did because it "felt" right for me. The beauty of it is that after I paid for it I started to research the option codes and found that the car had almost every option I would pick. PSE, M030 suspension, 18" wheels, Bi-Xenons, heated seats, aero skirts - etc. etc. I probably would not have picked the Bose stereo because the only music I ever listen to is the engine, and oh yeah - that sport exhaust, I've learned to play very sweet music with it. Don't stress too much - it is a car.

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Fair's got nothing to do with a car's price. Market determines a car's price which is under the influence of many factors, some logical and some not. My general used car pricing strategy is to assume the dealer only has in the car what the car wholesales for or even less. Some dealers claim to put thousands of dollars in a car to CPO the car but dealers are pretty good at cherry picking cars that require as little work/money as possible to bring them up to CPO status. Also, remember the dealer pays way less for the parts/supplies the mechanic uses for any CPO related work and of course does not pay $150/hour or whatever the hourly rate is at the dealer's service department. Anyhow, how much you pay over that wholesale number depends upon many factors but better you should start out too low than open with a high price to begin with. You can always raise your offer if you find your market research has given you a wrong, too low, market value for the car. Mark up for a used car can be easy 10% or more and 25% or even higher is not out too high. Whatever the market will bear. The sky's the limit (nearly) for how high you can go. If you walked in and offered retail price chances are the salesman would find a way to justify asking you for more money. Remember, price is not a fact only an opinion. And there's always another car. Sincerely, Macster.

IIRC, you did a bit of work and price for this type of car was about $35K or more, because of the cab. That would seem reasonable for a low-mileage car (30K). IMHO, $45K is a bit much for a seven year-old car but here what you're paying for is the "very" low mileage and the "S." That "S" as we've said before adds quite a bit onto the price, specifically at the dealer. I would think that $40K is more reasonable for this car, and as high as $41K, but yes, the dealer him/herself is paying $3000 to CPO the car. Listen to Macster; that's great advice he's giving, as always. For what it's worth, if you don't want AWD you can spend $45K on a 997, but you'll obviously lose the cab, which IIRC was important to you. Biggest challenge here is to take your time and drive everything you can. You asked whether there's a bit difference between 2003 and 2004 and I would say no; between 2002 and 2003 there's a small difference and then after 2005 there's more of a difference, and then after 2009 there's even more of a difference, and then next year (2012) there'll be a whole new 911 for us to lust over....so, again, drive everything you can, see what you like, pick a price point and then add 10% to save in the bank for repairs, then buy the best car at that price point that you find, after really looking hard. I find Excellence magazine to be realistic on what real-world prices are. Just my $0.02.

I can certainly agree with what has been said. But do add in the regional factor of the Porsche purchase and market conditions which are Very fickle. And to help you along get to your local magazine stand and pick up the latest - September - issue of Excellence Magazine. This in my opinion is much better that the NADA and other reference as it looks at many sources specific to Porsches. The Regional Locale issue might affect you in CT. Very different market then say my area of MicrosoftVille where we have a very high number of P-Cars available and thus lower prices during a down economy. Now there are variables like the fact that right now our local Dealers are begging for clean trades - and it is summer - bad time to buy a Cab -dealers add 20% $ as soon as the rain stops around here.

The CPO on my 2004 Turbo Cab cost the dealer $2000. You are doing the right thing using NADA. Be sure to plug in the zip code on the NADA website as it will factor in regional variability. NADA pricing does not include the value of the CPO. If you are buying from a dealer you can bank on the fact that NADA wholesale is the maximum they paid for the car. Generally, if the car has been in their stock for more than 3 or 4 weeks and you offer them a decent profit (3K to 4K) above NADA wholesale, they will usually take it if you convince them you have good information. CPO value will be negotiable above that. I got my 2004 TT cab for 5K above NADA wholesale including CPO. I also let them finance it as they get a commission, but paid off the note when the first payment was due. Another little trick to know. Good luck.

Fair ? Something fair ? Let me know when you find something fair. Generally bank rates and dealers is the last place many would think to look for this rare breed called fair. Although it was fairly beautiful weather here with morning tropical mountain showers and trade winds

There are only a few numbers that really count in the used car game, no matter if it is a Kia or a Porsche. 1. Black Book Value. This is what dealers use. The numbers are far lower than KBB/NADA. 2. What the dealer has in the car. This will vary from car to car and so makes absolute knowledge of the value of a used car impossible to pinpoint with complete accuracy. 3. What a buyer is willing to spend. All that said, I am not surprised that 03-04 values are harder to pin down. The market downturn in 01-02 really hit luxury/performance car sales. Simply put - there are far less 03-04 996s, therefore they are worth more money. With the few differences between 02 and 03/04 I specifically looked for an 02 with lower mileage.

Great info in this thread. As Silotwo said, "don't stress too much it's a car." Great advice! I am a stresser too so it's good to remember it's just a car.

What I found about this "market" when I was buying, is it's all about mileage, mileage, mileage. Condition is good and clean with most of these cars. Option list varies wildly from car to car. I found no two 996s the same. In the whole country. So some dealers use those little differences to justify price. In the end however, mileage is the single biggest price influencer. Which is strange since most of these cars will happily make it for 100s of 1000s of miles!!

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And I tend to think that the mileage "money bump" for lower mileage cars within NADA is extreme. I don't believe that the 2 cars the OP referenced are worth anything north of $40K. That's absurd.

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From the seller's point of view maybe mileage (low miles) leads him to believe the car's worth more but a used car buyer (though there are exceptions) is more concerned about the car's condition and its price. I would say these two factors are tied for 1s tplace. Mileage, options, colors, and so play a secondary role in various ordering. Sincerely, Macster.

Because options cost so much when the cars are new, and yet so little when they are used, it is well worth the time to be patient and find a well-optioned car that fits your price/mileage/condition standards. Personally I think full leather is a required option on these cars to make the interior quality match the price/value. I did not look at cars without full leather, Bose and bi-xenons. The one I eventually found also had PSM.

For reference, this month's (week's, in fact) Excellence numbers, as mentioned above, are below for the cars you've mentioned. Pick up the issue and read the Buyer's Guide if you haven't already. C2 Cab 2002 21,900-29,300 C2 Cab 2003 24,500-32,800 C2 Cab 2004 27,300-36,600 C4 Cab 2002 21,900-29,300 [SIC] C4 Cab 2003 24,500-32,800 [SIC] C4 Cab 2004 27,300-36,600 [SIC] C4S Cab 2004 32,500-43,500 *Note: Excellence quotes same price for C2 and C4 cab this month, but last year (2010) there was a $1-3K difference between them. May be typo.

Because options cost so much when the cars are new, and yet so little when they are used, it is well worth the time to be patient and find a well-optioned car that fits your price/mileage/condition standards. Personally I think full leather is a required option on these cars to make the interior quality match the price/value. I did not look at cars without full leather, Bose and bi-xenons. The one I eventually found also had PSM. That's great info. What's the reason that everybody wants the bi-xenons? It seems to be highly desirable but I don't know why. Thanks in advance.

Peter 642 - is this a misprint in that a C2 and a C4 carry the identical values?

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They are visually more appealing and provide better/more light for night driving.

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Superb illumination - my wife had a Lexus with them and the first night I drove it my thought was wow, got to have them on my next car. My olds does not have them and when I do drive it I catch myself checking to make sure my headlights are on

John, it may be. Edited post to state just that. Good catch.

I bought a high mileage car because I will only drive 2-3k miles per year; so I am not worried about getting it too high. It is a 2005 C4S with 80k miles that I bought for $35k and came with a CPO ... only one previous owner, serviced at the local P-car dealer since day 1 and it was in great shape. Its basically what you are looking for and what works with your budget. I do like the CPo though ...

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This thread has been extremely helpful. Thanks to everyone who responded! It really helps put things into perspective. A few quick responses to some of the comments: Most of my research was on '02 models but none on CPO'd cars. Right, but a Cab isn't just important -- it's actually what I'm looking for. I checked Excellence's prices this evening and WOW are they low (almost artificially so) compared to even what NADA is saying. I know, patience.... I kind of feel that way regarding the NADA bump, as well, but I do think there is some additional value to finding a low mileage car vs. one with 80K on the clock. As for price, If I could get a well optioned, low mileage 2004 CPO'd C4S Cab for $40K, I think I'd be very happy. Just know one thing regarding Bi-Xenons: They are not all created equally. When I bought my 2005 S60R, I was expecting illumination on par with my 2002 TT Quattro Roadster. The low beams were on par with what I expected from a decent set of headlights, however, the high beams are among the worst I've ever seen on ANY car. Rather than taking the EU model lamps originally outfitted on the car, Volvo decided to modify the cluster for the North American market such that the headlight only moves the xenon light upward to expand the scope of illumination rather than also illuminating a 2nd bulb or doing anything to increase output. The result is rather frightening, especially in areas without a lot of ambient light. Of course, this has nothing to do with the light on a 911...but just keep in mind that not all bi-xenon headlights are great. As for my search, my biggest problem right now is in locating cars. The options are pretty slim! -Eric

I think high $40ks is too much even with CPO. My only opinion to you is be patient. Find the car you like and pay what you want to pay. Just make them an offer. You never know what they will say, right? I have not bought from a dealer in a few years now, but my last non Porsche purchase (BMW M3) I offered $5k under asking and got the car for $4500 under with CPO. I was a few thousands under KBB and NADA at that time. Car was on their lot for less than 2 weeks. Oh, I came in to the dealer 1 hour before they closed and stayed until they say YES to me...

Yeah, the CPO'd '04 C4 Cab was traded between dealers for several months and has been on this particular dealer's lot since MARCH! The exterior color isn't my first choice but I am intrigued by the car (maybe the dearth of market options is influencing that). I originally emailed them about another car on their lot but there was a deposit recently put on it. They brought this one to my attention. I sent the salesperson a note telling them that it isn't worth considering unless they can get closer to $36K. I quoted NADA, Excellence and told them that I'm aware of the car's recent history of sitting on their lots for months. It was a ballsy note but I've got nothing to lose. -Eric

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This is how all Bi-Xenon's work. They only have 1 bulb and a motor that moves a light shield slightly up when in high beam mode. However there is a difference in projector design/optical quality and that is what makes some better than others.