2000 996 with cracked block - repair or junk?

My 2000 996 engine died this morning. Driving my daughter to school, check engine light came on, followed 2 miles later by lots of white smoke from the passenger side exhaust and sudden roughness in the engine. Had it towed to shop,and they confirmed CEL codes showed multiple cylinder misfires and smoke was coolant getting into the fuel. I.e. cracked block or cylinder head. I'm inclined to believe their recommendation, especially since it makes them the least $$$ by far. They suggest replacing the car. It's a 2000 996 C2 with 107,500 miles, the original transmission, and few options,so it's book value pre-disaster was probably in the mid-teens at best, although the engine was replaced under warranty (RMS) at 30,000 miles. It will also be difficult to replace as it's a metallic rain forest green (I think that's what Porsche called it), which was rare and only made for a few years. Other options are a rebuild, buy a used engine, or buy a new engine from Porsche. Any of those would quickly exceed the value of the car. It's my baby, and I've had it since new, so I wish there was a way to rescue it, but it doesn't seem like there is any way that makes sense. Any suggestions on options I'm missing? Also, anyone want to hazard a guess as to the chances of PCNA kicking in anything meaningful towards the repair or a discount on a new purchase? Thanks, Bob (sad about his Porsche)

Well Bob, I guess you have to ask yourself a question. How much do you live the green and that car? I came from a 928 that is truly a love for the car project. Financial questions can never come to play. I would fix it if it were me because of where I came from. My car is my car, for better or for worse.

Horrible! I thought intermix would never happen beyond about 60K miles, and on a replacement motor too? PCNA bought me a motor 3 years after warranty expired, a lot of work getting it. Talk to your dealer, Service manager, General manager etc. You may be able to find a good used motor for $4-5K out of a wreck. As these cars are coming down in price, used motors should as well. Good luck!

Sounds like a great time to upgrade to a 3.6L... I'm sure their are lots for sale in salvage yards.

Ouch, Sorry to hear... If it were my baby, I'd fix it even if slightly more because, it's my baby!!! But if you were thinking of an upgrade, never a better time? good luck either way.

Quotes source post: 8097703

+1 Bob, I had the engine blow on my 2003 targa, estimated value $35k at the time it blew. New engine $15k. Now I have a 50k 2003 targa but there was no way in he'll I was going to scrap her. Now I have a warranty for the next 2 years I run it hard as possible

Good comments all, thanks. I'm still pondering. The tough call is really because of the mileage and age. It looks like for 60K plus/minus I can get a 2-3 year old 997 with really low miles and more options. I do love the car and color, but its hard to face sinking 20K or more into it (if I assume a new tranny soon as well) vs getting something 8 years younger. Or I could go whole hog and just factory order a new one as a custom color. The funny thing is that my childhood dream was a black 911 with tan leather. I got this green one because I walked into Rector Porsche one day to window shop and someone had cancelled their order for this one the day it was delivered. I bought it on the spot and had them drive my other car home. Good times. Bob

then do used 997 and make this a project 996 :-)

How much would you hope to get for how it is right now, without parting out?

why not get a 3.8 engine with $ 13K??

I love the project idea, but I have two kids and work for Silicon Valley startups. I barely have time to ride my bike (custom Waterford with Campy Record, for the cyclists out there). The last car I worked on was a '74 Fiat 128, back when feeler gauges were still useful.

Quotes source post: 8097815

Hadn't even thought about that. It's in great shape interior and body wise, and the clutch only has 8K on it, but if a used and running 2000 996 is only worth 15-20K I can't imagine one with a blown engine has much value.

I'm tempted to make you an offer and make it into a race car. I wasn't planning on getting to this stage until next year but hey you never know.

Quotes source post: 8097826

Wow you talked it down so well, how about $5k?

Quotes source post: 8097836

Don't even want to think about that yet. Try me again in a few days and I will hopefully have at least made a decision.

For the curious, this is the green color I'm talking about : http://gtcarlot.com/car/9098652 . [not my car, and the color looks much better when sunlight is involved ] If anyone has a low mileage 997 in that color for sale, let me know. Bob

Quotes source post: 8097627

Sorry to hear that Bob. I too have a 2000 C2 Cab with the engine replaced at 47K miles in 2007 and now the car has 62K mile. First engine had porosity in the block. Would you mind to share with us what year your engine was replaced at 30K miles? I am a bit worry now......

Quotes source post: 8097820

OK that's funny.....

Quotes source post: 8097889

I wouldn't worry any more due to my saga. My RMS-driven replacement was at 3 years and 30K miles. This failure is 7.5 years and 78,000 miles later. If you are only driving 5K per year you have another 13 years to go :-) Bob

Quotes source post: 8097907

+1 to that! Sorry to hear about your engine troubles

Quotes source post: 8097907

What, you don't think those skills will transfer to a new Porsche? :-)

Bob your car might be worth more as a trade in at Rector or another Porsche dealership. I bought my 99' 996 with a blown motor from BH Porsche. They took it in trade from a customer who didn't want to spend the money replacing the motor. They offered him MORE than the car was worth to entice him to buy another Porsche from them which he apparenly did. They had 2 of them with blown motors so they obviously have made that type of deal previously. We (my wrench and I) bought them both just before they went to auction.....

Quotes source post: 8097947

I was flashing back to my days at Berkeley in the last 60's (hell no we won't go) and setting the points in my VW with a dime (thinnest part). Couldn't afford a feeler gauge...

Quotes source post: 8097955

Since the right team won Big Game this year, we can keep talking.

sucks man - sorry to hear there is a thread running right now about inexpensive engines - heated debate, maybe worth looking at, best of luck, feel bad... hope it turns out well

Quotes source post: 8097998

How quickly they forget.....

Quotes source posts: 8097955, 8098013

Two of the cal guys were down before they lateral'd. And I was at the game a few years back when Cal fans stormed the field to celebrate, were cleared off, and then lost the game on the final play. That was sweet. But my uncle lettered at Cal, and another acquaintance was Oski one year, so I have learned to tolerate folks from across the Bay. And I will check out the trade in option. Thanks for the idea. Bob

Sorry about your plight Bob. You bought your Porsche new at the dealer, have you had the dealer do all of your work on the 911? I'd say that if you have a history with your Porsche and a good relationship, it may be worthwhile to explore the alternatives you mentioned with PCNA and your dealer.

Plenty of options here. No need to freak out! There is an used engine post #7 for $2500. An extra $2K for the install and perhaps $500 for transport, you be back on the road for $5K. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...es-for-9k.html

It could be a cracked head, that can be repared for a lot less than engine replacement, Check post #13 https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...o-coolant.html

The only way it makes sense to trash the car is if you have no intention of replacing it with anything. Otherwise, another engine is the most economical option for you. That will end up being cheaper by far than crystallizing your losses on the Porsche plus buying something in its place. Replacing the engine, you merely end up with an overpriced Porsche, and you can get that value back by using it if you do so long enough. People get irrational at moments like this, and let their anger/fear/pride cause them to make bad economic decisions. A car isn't generally an investment grade asset. It's an expense whose value can only be extracted through utility. The whole "fixing it will cost more than it's worth" argument, which many people make, is specious and illogical. I'm really sorry this crap happened to you, for sure, and it's not right. But unless you have to trash it for your own financial reasons, don't let emotions multiply your costs here. My .02.

Good point Bruce, and others... options are available, take a breath and start researching... knowledge will help more than emotion.

Quotes source post: 8098540

Thanks. That's exactly why I started this thread, to solicit opinions on different options. This car (or it's replacement) is my daily driver, so I do need something reliable and consistent. Fixing it is definitely an option, but buying a lightly used or brand new replacement is also tempting, especially moving to a '997. Since I'm averaging twice as many miles per clutch as per engine, it doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling about the engine :-)

Quotes source post: 8098416

+1 Do you actually know you have a cracked block or is it the head? the head is a much cheaper fix.

Quotes source post: 8098854

Personally I don't know, but I trust Tony Heyer (Heyer Performance, in Mountain View CA), and after doing the diagnostics he came to the conclusion that the engine wasn't repairable. He did say that I could try having it disassembled and repaired, but that he didn't recommend that and had not seen good results in the rare cases a customer of his had gone that route, at least not with a failure like mine. Bob

I will PM you a contact, never hurts to ask and get more ideas

I am sure Doug will chime in soon. He did this on his own car for next to nothing and he can guide you in the right direction.

it also wasnt his daily driver - took him more than a couple days (not that he wont be able to offer a welth of helpful insight, just saying) We all (or most of us anyhow) have seen the Boxster guy that rebuilt his motor on youtube in his garage with no real special skills other than determination and the lack of wanting to spend $20k at the dealer...-

Quotes source post: 8098917

Unfortunately (from a $$$ point of view, anyway), I'm not in a position to do this myself from either a time or skills perspective. So whatever I end up doing will involve paying someone else, even though doing it myself would certainly be less expensive. Bob

May I ask what the diagnosis was? Cracked cylinder head or the block? There is a place in Costa Mesa with rebuilt cylinder heads on the shelf. If yours is unrepairable it is replaceable and only for the cost of a rebuild cylinder head vs engine. PM me if you want contacts as well as a mechanic in LA who routinely does this work.

Quotes source post: 8098870

I'm not questioning the integrity of Tony Heyer having never met him but he just said "throw it away, it doesn't matter what is cracked or broken"? That makes no sense. Did he say "oh you should just get out of this car" and then offer to buy it from you for $5K? Things that make you go "hmmmmmmm"

Quotes source post: 8099005

Nope, neither of those. I can't recall precisely what he said on the phone, and I'm obviously going to be talking to him again, but it was along the lines of the following: You have a bad crack in either the block or the head, and basically all the coolant had drained/been burned up in the engine. There are three repair choices: 1) tear down the engine, repair / replace the broken component, and reassemble. 2) buy a used replacement engine 3) Buy a new engine from Porsche. 1 would be cheapest but still not cheap (price will vary based on what's broken, but assume 5K to 10K with labor and all). He also sounded "leery" of 1 especially if it involved welding a damaged head back together or work of that type. He just didn't sound confident that this sort of thing would hold up over time. 2 and 3 were described to me as more expensive (3 being highest, of course), but definite options. The other thing he told me to consider is that he often sees 996 manual transmissions fail by the time they get to 100-125K miles. I'm at 107K with the original transmission (new clutch, though), and he doesn't want to sell me a new engine then have me needing a $6K transmission 6 months later, at least not without warning me up front. I definitely think he's giving me a reasonable set of options, but since NONE of them are particularly cheap I'm soliciting further thoughts before I make any final, expensive decisions. Bob

rpratt: Do you recall when your water pump was last replaced?

Bob: Your predicament is something that we all fear. But maybe you want to look at this as an "incremental" cost option. Maybe repairing the engine with a new head might cost $5,000 (I really don't know the numbers here - I am just using this as a sample calculation.) You already have $25,000 invested in your car. Selling a car like this without an engine will get you < $10,000. If you do that but buy another Porsche, you take the hit on your asset (the existing car) and another hit to buy a new one (new to you.) Where can you buy another Porsche for the cost of repairing/replacing your engine? If you repair/replace the engine, you will have a significantly lower cash outlay now, and recover some of your original investment. I know that the emotional tendency is to toss the baby out with the bathwater, but that isn't a wise economical choice. That is UNLESS . . . . . you already know your tranny is nearly trash, the other mechanicals in your car need freshening/replacing, your interior is used up, you no longer enjoy a 996 NA and want to move up to a TT, or a 997. If there are OTHER reasons for the change, and the engine is just the straw that broke the camel's back, then go ahead. But, if this is an emotional decision, and your car is otherwise in reasonable shape, do the repair, and enjoy the car for another 50 or 100K miles. You will come out with less of a cash outlay in the long run. Just my $.02 plain. It's your nickel. larry

Quotes source post: 8099100

not a clue. It would have been whenever "the book" called for a replacement, or it might have been done when I had the clutch done at 95K miles. Kinda a moot point now, though. Bob

^ reason for the water pump replacement ? is because it is made of plastic impellers and they do break off clogging up inside of the engine if not replaced by 90K miles. Once that happens you get hot spots in your engine and failure is not far behind. Post #12 https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-failures.html

These threads just make me want to cry. "Hey, Mav! What is that phone number to that small block Chevy V-8 conversion guy?"

Quotes source post: 8099217

go big block or go home

Quotes source post: 8099265

See, if it was me, I would see this as opportunity... perhaps, remove the 350 MAG MPI 350 hp motor from my boat and get the Ilmor 625 and outdrive conversion for the boat. Take the perfectly good 350 from the boat and shoehorn it into the 996... It's a brave new world out there... ...or get 10 of those small Porsche lithium-ion light-weight batteries, an electric motor... Hey! Isn't the OP from Silicon Valley for crying out loud! Where is the innovation? Where is the magic? Some guy in the 356 Registry converted his dead engine 356 to a water-cooler 1.6L DIESEL. And all we have to offer is for him to buy somebody-elses clapped out, ready to fail, old motor.

Quotes source post: 8099156

The reason I was asking is there is an opinion that a failed (or failing) water pump is one of the root causes for this to happen, so i was curious if yours had been replaced. Unfortunately, there is no factory scheduled repalcement interval.

op would you be interested in trading your 996 toward my '05 997 S I have for sale?

Quotes source post: 8099095

Hey Bob, so option 1 runs 5-10K and option 3 will run you $15K all in, all new components on the engine, everything apart from the A/C compressor and the extra 5K gets you a brand new engine with a 2 year warranty. I'm not saying go with the new engine from Porsche but that extra 5K did it for me, I was about to buy a 10K engine from a dismantler and then pay someone 1-3K to fit it. At that point it was a no brainer, I had it put on a flat-bed sent to Porsche and new engine in it within a week. I was then told to drive it like I stole it , and I haven't stopped yet. Weekend after I picked it up I was on the track chasing people again. It's only money, you can't take it with you... Whatever you do make sure you have "No Regrets", once it's gone it's gone.

Kiesan, that is a great looking 997!

Quotes source post: 8099330

Since we're talking trades, can I trade you my wife for the car ?

Quotes source post: 8099336

Thanks man! It should look good as it is still essentially a new car with less than 6k miles. Atlas grey metallic which I have never seen on a P-car until this one. Sometimes looks blue, sometimes looks grey. Its for sale in the classifieds, C-list, etc., so I'm guessing someone will come along sooner than later. I like fixing dead ones though and since the op was talking 997 I thought I'd throw it out there.

Quotes source post: 8099341

pics

Nice '05 S. Isn't it the same M96 engine? Revised IMS came out in the '06s

Quotes source post: 8099374

Sold Unseen - I can personally do a PPI though.

There was a 2000 cab with a bad motor on SF Craigslist 2 weeks ago for $9500, point of reference for you.

Quotes source post: 8099462

Guilty. Were I to keep this car for the long haul I was going to do the IMS upgrade as preventative maint and call it good. I imagine whoever buys it from me will do the same. I'd have to think though that at this mileage there is a bit of a safe window to just drive the car and enjoy it.

Quotes source post: 8099095

He sounds like a straight up guy to me who correctly layed out your options for you....

Quotes source post: 8098759

I just sent you a PM with some motor options.....

LOL @ PPI I heard a good PPI should take 2-3 hours... can your wife vouch that it is a "good PPI"

Quotes source post: 8099553

No guilt necessary. It's certainly not conclusive that the M96 needs an IMS bearing upgrade. There have been many that have survived six figure mileage with the original bearing. If I were buying your beautiful 997, I'd do the upgrade given the significant investment to purchase the car. However, the more I think about it, if I were to buy a $12K Boxster S (as I'm contemplating), I'd probably take say F.... it and take my chances at least until I was doing a clutch job. Cheers, Joe

That is a beautiful 997, probably the most attractive Carrera I've seen. RE: IMS, I haven't done one during a clutch change for a customer (was not requested), I didn't do it on my own car during clutch replacement (both @~100k miles) either. Some have failed, most have not, and probably will not through the useful lifespan of the car. As for the broken 996, sorry to hear your troubles. Transmission failure is rather rare on these cars too, I certainly don't think there's a significant number of failures by 100k miles. I think it would make better financial sense to fix the car. That said, if you can easily afford to sell as is, and your time is in short supply, selling now could be more attractive. In that case, please drop me a PM (even if you end up trading it in). Best of luck regardless.

yeah but ya know... If you fix it.. You know what you have. You buy something else. You are back to square one. Unless you are going to go buy a NEW one.

Quotes source post: 8099992

I dont have the same beliefs -- near the 100k mile mark the pinion head bearings are in many cases toast. Again, this due to Porsche specifying sealed bearings in the gbx, much like that of the IMS situation.

there is no "upgrading" the newer IMS bearings... the enlarged bearing cannot be removed thru the exsisting hole in the block - the only thing that can be done is to remover the sealing ring - just saying sure we dont need to beat this horse though - right

Is there a consensus to the value of this car? I've seen $5,000 thrown out so far. Anybody want to share what they've seen blown engine cars go for?

Quotes source post: 8102323

Probably about right. I paid $ 4.8k each for the 2-99's I bought in June 09' from BH Porsche just before they went to auction. Both had blown motors, 44k and 55k miles respectively, both dark blue, one with grey and one with beige leather interiors, and both were in beautiful condition....

Quotes source post: 8101531

That's the pits.

Quotes source post: 8102572

Yes sir! This one wasnt that noisy believe it or not.

Quotes source post: 8099837

LMAO

Quotes source post: 8102380

OT, but wow that is a great price for a roller!!! Those cars were practically new! Although I love the way my car looks, it would be cool to throw my 500+ hp motor/trans in one. It would be nice to have the newer stuff my old beast lacks.

FYI a cheap motor for sale in dallas $4,500 for a 55k miles engine http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/pts/2069997955.html

Quotes source post: 8103545

Oh come on no fair, I had my eye on that.... Offer still stands $5k for the car.

Quotes source post: 8097820

Awesome man. FYI, i ride a custom Parlee with super record and lightweights (: HAHAHA

After a couple of conversations and letters with the powers that be at PCNA, their (unsurprising but disappointing) position is that, while its unfortunate that I had two engine failures thru no fault of my own in 100K miles, they won't do anything to assist with repair or replace of the 2nd one. Again, not shocking since the engine has been out of warranty for 5 years, but still very annoying. I'm still thinking on what to do, but at the moment it's hard to get excited about putting in a 3rd engine and having to plan for another new one every 50K miles going forward. The idea that I go thru engines twice as fast as clutches just doesn't sit well. Bob

Bob, the first engine was replaced in your ownership period or prior to? Yea, that's a bit hard to stomach, keep the clutch but swap the motor

Quotes source post: 8104321

I bought the car new in 2000, and have had all service done up until this failure at one of the 3 SF Peninsula Porsche dealers (bought at Rector, had some work done there, some at Carlsen, and some at Stevens Creek, depending where my office happened to be at the time). The car's never been tracked, abused, etc, as I think the 100K clutch lifespan demonstrates pretty well. As I said, I'm not shocked by PCNA's denial, but it's just hard to stomach planning for an engine replacement every 50K miles or 5 years (on average). I've got another car to drive for now, so I'm leaning towards kissing my 996 goodbye and waiting a few months to decide whether to buy a 997, wait for the new 997 replacement, or go in a completely different direction. I've also got 2 kids who didn't exist when I bought my 996, and were starting to outgrow the back seat anyway, so that makes the "switch to something else" more interesting as well. Basically, no real good choices here is what it boils down to, but I still have a very strong gut feel that engines should last longer than this, and certainly that's been true for every other car I've ever owned (not a huge sample, to be sure, but still). Bob

I think I would side with you on this then and work with the dealer on using it towards a 997S - the dealer will most likely give you more than selling it outright based on some factors like they can put an engine in it pretty cheaply and re-sell it with good service history records... pretty disapointing for sure

Flat6innovations.com has a "CPO" engine for sale on the website with rebuilt heads or you can get your original engine upgraded.

So it's been a week or so, did you ever attempt to negotiate with your P-dealer for a reasonable trade in allowance?....

just in case if you need a head: $250 for this one, not perfect but cheap.. http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/pts/2099417665.html

After much pondering, I finally decided to sell my 996 as is and wait a few months to decide what to buy next. While I've loved driving the car, at the end of the day I'm very unhappy with the 5 year / 50K engine life I've seen, and I don't want to continue with that. I may buy a 997 later this winter, I may wait for the next gen 911, or I may buy something else entirely. I'm definitely feeling burned by Porsche "quality" at the moment, though. Something like my wife's new Lexus, with a LIFETIME power train warranty, is looking really good right now. I did talk to a couple of local dealers, and while they made reasonably attractive "buy new" offers (a few K under invoice), neither of them was willing to offer substantially more for the car than a private party. By the way, I appreciate the informal offers from folks on the board, but decided to sell the car to a local buddy so I don't have to mess with an unknown (to me anyway), out of area buyer, delivery,etc. Thanks for all the advice and commiseration. Hopefully I'll have a new toy to drive sometime soon. Bob

thats a bad taste in your mouth and I am guessing the M96 will not be on your list of next potential cars... sorry to hear, glad you are able to find a buyer and come away with something

Quotes source post: 8114353

Yup. A 997 MAYBE (although right now I definitely have a bad taste with respect to Porsche in general), but another 996 or another M96 engine for my current 996, absolutely not. Bob

How did you do on resale?

Quotes source post: 8114566

Bob, Tough luck on the 2nd engine in your 996. If I was in your shoes, I would get a 997.2. It has the new 9A1 engine, DFI, NO intermweiate shaft and has 40% fewer moving parts than the M96/M97 engines. If and when I get another Porsche, I am 98% certain that it will be a 997.2.

Quotes source post: 8114584

slightly under the 5K I was informally offered here, but with zero headaches (I can leave it where it is, and I know the person buying it well enough to be confident in the check being good). Not that I don't trust the good folks here, but anytime you're taking a 5K check from someone you've only met thru an Internet chat board, you should be a bit cautious. Bob

If it ends up being a cracked head the buyer got one hell of a deal.

Well darn, I didn't mean for mine to be an informal offer... I hereby formally tell you that if your deal is not finalized, please let me know.

Quotes source post: 8115768

My deal isn't finalized yet, but it's really just a matter of me taking the easy route out. Absent a large price premium (which I'm not fishing for), selling to a local buyer is a simpler outcome. Bob