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Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCH996 CPO engine needs replacing: Questions.
Leading reported evidence
Check crank
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I just had my RMS replaced and they checked the crank for centricity (word?) All is good.
Leading evidence: 'Check crank' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'bit cooler' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check crank' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I had the engine replaced in my 2004 996 after only 5k miles.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
The RMS and clutch was replaced around 40k miles (purchased the car at 30k), and the car is now at 50k miles.
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Discussions that suspect a cause
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Suspected cause
Lots more volume, thanks to speed, and likely a bit cooler.
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Suggestion
While they may be ok when new, I firmly believe that the 'give' provided by the rubber coupling changes over time leading to unpredictable and non-linear engagement leading to higher amounts of slippage to feel smooth coming from stop.
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Suggestion
A modern engine would have to be running pretty rich to have that problem, richer than I'd have to believe a healthy engine management system would allow.
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Suggestion
I think that people who have this problem might use more clutch when they're launching in order to be able to do so at slightly higher rpms, thus avoiding the little hesitation.
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Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Took my 2002 996 in to get some minor trim bits fixed, and the dealership discovered that my RMS was starting to leak again and noted that my clutch was feeling stiff.
The RMS and clutch was replaced around 40k miles (purchased the car at 30k), and the car is now at 50k miles.
Now, upon taking the car apart, the dealership has discovered the crankshaft is "off-center." I guess some of the crankshaft bearings are worn and allowing the shaft to wobble? Anyways, the car has always vibrated a bit much at idle, but has always driven well. My question(s) are this:
1. Could this problem be the cause of prematurely wearing clutches?
2. Is it possible this problem existed the first time they swapped my RMS, and just didn't notice?
3. How long, on average, would you guess it takes a dealer to order and swap an engine?
4. My warranty is up in 6-ish months, and I'm scared. What's the best way to go about selling a Porsche? Love it, but can't afford it if the problems persist...
Best regards, and thanks!
If the new engine is covered by warranty I would not worry going forward. I had the engine replaced in my 2004 996 after only 5k miles. I sold the car not because of the engine replacement but because I had a chance at a crazy deal on a 997S. I sold the car to the boss of my sister in law and he has since put close to 30k trouble free miles on the car. I would not worry about any more problems after replacement. The new engine has all the latest and greatest updates and fixes. Replace it and keep on driving.
1. Doubtful. The biggest factor in clutch life is driving style. It's also possible that the clutch didn't really "need" replacing the first time. Stranger things have happened. There's not much extra labour to put one in when you're doing the RMS, but there is that extra parts margin.
2. Yes, if they didn't use the tool to check it while they were in there the first time.
3. Can't help you there, but others here can.
4. What blk on blk said. There are no guarantees in life, nor for the rest of the car. But for two years at least, that new engine is going to be the last thing you have to worry about. Whereas you'll take a bath on the car if you sell it now, and you won't have a Porsche.
Enjoy the new engine. Regardless of what some say, Porsches with non-original motors have been on the road since the 356. It's not right, but it's not cancer. Just part of the experience.
How long to replace the engine?
My Engine was ordered on a Friday and received the following Friday. It was ready to pickup by Wednesday. So, basically, not more than 2 weeks.
You won the lottery!
You are getting a new motor for a car that you like.
All costs will be covered by Porsche (I'm assuming rental car too).
The new motor will come with a 2 year warranty!
You should be stoked. Get it fixed and enjoy.
Bearings are not worn out, the case has a casting/machining flaw. If your bearings were worn out, you are only talking thousandths of an inch, not enough to wobble by any means.
Be happy... I had mine replaced on my 2002 C2. The car was a PDE refugee and the RMS went out 4 times in 6 months. New engine and it ran great. I traded it in for my GT3. I do know the new owner and after 3 years the car is still doing well.
+1
I had 126k miles before a valve spring broke leading to a new engine. Depending on the dealer, you may have it done in a week or less. Just depends on engine availability at the distribution centers ( Atlanta and LA if I recall correctly).
Correct. The new policy at Porsche is that when they replace an engine or transmission or probably anything the new item is only covered as long as the warranty which covered the replacement. I just got a new transmission last month, but it is only covered until my CPO warranty runs out Feb 5th. After that I am on my own.
You're right, I misunderstood.
Thanks for the input all, I truly appreciate it! Another one for you though: Since my driving style is apparently hell on OEM clutches, is there a "performance" oriented one you'd all recommend that I might not melt in 10k miles? Or should I just learn how to drive?
It doesn't really matter what sort you have, I don't think. When the pedal is anywhere between all the way in and all the way out, you're spending money. Some people ride their clutches in the name of smoothness. Some, like my beloved bride, do it just cuz. And some people do it because the traffic conditions they drive in don't give them a choice.
I have a kooky theory about this with our cars. When mine is infrequently driven or city driven, it develops an awkward little flat spot off idle that makes it hard to get a smooth launch in traffic. I find that the flat spot disappears whenever I give it the old Italian tune-up and throttle response gets much better. I think that people who have this problem might use more clutch when they're launching in order to be able to do so at slightly higher rpms, thus avoiding the little hesitation.
Not that you asked.
There's two minutes you'll never get back...
IMNSHO, the clutch problem in these cars is the dual mass flywheel. While they may be ok when new, I firmly believe that the 'give' provided by the rubber coupling changes over time leading to unpredictable and non-linear engagement leading to higher amounts of slippage to feel smooth coming from stop.
[ I find that the flat spot disappears whenever I give it the old Italian tune-up and throttle response gets much better.
What is the old italian tune-up?
I am pretty gentle on clutchs. The Triumph TR4 I had as a kid still had the original clutch in it when I got rid of it with well over 100,000 miles. My guide is that if you don'd kill the engine every now and then coming off from a stop you are either VERY skilled or the clutch is being slipped too much. Also learn your gear ratios so that a passenger cannot feel the clutch re-engage during shifts.
Have the clutch fully released before mashing the throttle.
Some owners of perfomance cars seem to think faster driving is better driving. For me fast and SMOOTH driving is the most satisfying. Only on a race track do you need to really rev it up and dump the clutch. Otherwise just get the car moving enough to fully release the clutch ( generally withing 10 feet on level road) and then mash it. Sorry if I seem a bit pedantic, I don't mean to. When I started driving in 1958 almost all cars had sticks and the clutches were not as durable as they are today. Driving a stick is becoming a lost art for most of the driving population.
Dingdingdingdingding!
It used to mean blowing the carbon out and such, but now it means retraining the adaptive DME to wake up.
My BMWs used to love it. The difference between how the car felt after two hours in the country versus a week of city driving was comparable to how it felt to have the Dinan chip done. Seriously.
And the 996's DME is, to the seat of my pants, about five times as reactive. HUGE difference.
Now you've got me scared...my '99 is one year and 7k miles in on a replacement engine and for as long as I've owned the car, it's seemed to vibrate a lot. If the passenger seat is empty, you can see the backrest moving back and forth to the tune of 1/2" or so at idle.
Do I have anything to worry about or is it one of those "they all do that"-type things?
I don't know, to be honest, and this tests the limits of my understanding of how they work. But I will say that it seems to take more than a trip to the redline to get the result I'm describing. The kind of drive that gets it is one where there are many more and bigger throttle inputs than the car would see around town, higher overall rpms, and all of this for a sustained period of time. I know that throttle position is a key parameter, so I figured that's how it learns. I don't doubt that it goes open loop at WOT, but WOT's not where I think it remaps throttle response anyway. I mean, how could it... it's wide open!
Throttle "response" isn't learned in any way that I'm aware of.
Throttle position (and its rate of change) (and unless its open more than X%) is a minor factor to the A/F ratio calculation. #1 of course is the MAF sensor. Feedback from the O2 sensors is used to them trim the adaptation values for the next time. This is what's learned. There are short term and long term adaptation values. And of course these are mulit-dimensional maps so take a lot of driving around before it's fully filled in.
Throttle position is an input to the Variocam Plus controls.
Bill
It may be that throttle response, strictly defined, isn't learned (although it's obviously programmable). But it's still true, AFAIC, that the net effect I'm describing includes a loss of the hesitation off-idle and a "sense" that the engine revs more freely. To say that throttle response feels improved is a convenient way to describe it is all, if not technically accurate.
In any case, I don't see a disagreement here. A long, hard drive in the country will materially affect all three variables monitored by an adaptive DME, when compared to its condition after days of creeping along in urban traffic : Airflow? Check. Lots more volume, thanks to speed, and likely a bit cooler. Throttle position? Many more inputs, and much bigger movements. Engine speed? Ditto. Much higher rpms, sustained and average. It should be hard to debate - again, by comparison to urban commuting - that the engine is going to run much more like it was meant to.
Also, is it not true that timing is managed by DME in addition to air/fuel mixture? I was certain that it was.
Yes, it controls the spark timing. I'm not certain if the knock control is adaptive
or not over the long term. But I kinda doubt it. Just guessing.
But, say you do your long hard country drive. That will update the
adaptation values in areas of the fuel maps that aren't normally affected
creeping along in traffic, and vice versa. Until needed again, those
area of the map aren't going to lose their values unless the battery
has been disconnected. So I don't see any reason for the improvements
you notice. I also don't see these affects in my own car.
I suppose it's possible if you are forced to poke along in traffic for a long time,
you might possibly get *some* carbon build-up, which would increase
tendency to knock, and thus the timing would be pulled back in
response. Running it at WOT for a while would help clean that out,
and thus the timing would stop being retarded. This would then
improve performance all all speeds.
Bill
*shrug*
Then it will remain a mystery. Either my car is a miracle, or I have a more sensitive butt than most. But I can assure you, I'm no kid and I'm not new at this after 24 cars. And I've spent good money on 'chips' that had less palpable effect than what I see in the variability of this car with respect to how it's driven (a quality I quite like about it, actually). I appreciate the carbon theory, but I don't seriously think that's a factor here. A modern engine would have to be running pretty rich to have that problem, richer than I'd have to believe a healthy engine management system would allow. And, as I said earlier, driving at WOT isn't what seems to do the trick.
Let's pretend for a minute that I've got no motive to make this claim, and that I'm not a Porsche-addled, suggestible newbie and have some experience with this stuff. I'm all ears for a theory that explains my car's behavior, but not so much for any suggestion that I'm imagining it.
