Title question on C4S sale...

As my 2002 C4S makes its way across the country to me from the east coast to LA, the prev. owner has e-mailed me to ask me to fedex him the original title back so he can get a "tax credit" on his next purchase at a dealer in Boston (who says he needs the original, not a copy, of the title of his previous car). I'm not sure how things work back there on the east coast, does anyone know what he's talking about? He lives in Pennsylvania. He's been a great seller, he's a VP at a New York company, and he's promised to FedEx it back to me the next day - i've no reason not to trust him, but I just want to make sure it's a legit deal. To the best of my knowledge, California has nothing like this, so I'm not sure... Any thoughts?

Ask him about a notarized copy, that should be OK.

You bought a car from this guy, paid for it and is now being shipped to you, now he wants you to Fedex him back the title? Are you nuts? It would need an unreasonable amount of trust between two strangers for that to happen. In fact, I would now question if the sale or the car is legit. If it's not yet paid for, hold any payments until you see the car and inspect it and the title. It may all be innocent, but in this world and at this day and age, I would hold on to the title, and check the whole car from top to bottom when it arrives, and do another title check.

Do not give up the title - as "surgeon" stated, give him a notarized copy at most - that's still a pain for you to do, but you're still going out of your way if you do that - it may not be anything dishonest, but what if it is? I'm a business owner and a former CPA, and I can't figure out what he needs it for, unless he's an independent dealer or a broker, and it sounds like he's not. If he's a VP at some company (those titles get handed out all the time), he's trying to do something to avoid some type of taxes via a method that he heard about at the last second and it may not be legal...and that's not your problem.

No the car and title belong to you, Dont trust anyone you dont know.I would not do that...

He's probly buying a new car from a dealer and wants to use the car he sold to you as a trade in to save taxes. This works in most states except CA. When he is done with the title, your car will be sold to you from the dealer. What's there for you to lose? He may be an evil guy and you may never get your car. Also, he is no longer accountable for the car that sold you since you appearantly bought it from a dealer on paper. Without a bill of sales from a dealer or him, it'll be harder to point responsibility should anything go wrong with the car. What's there to gain? Nothing, unless he splits some of his tax savings with you. Sounds like a simple answer, unless he gives you some incentive, don't take the risks.

Something just doesn't add up. How does he get a tax credit for selling YOU a car??? I would be very wary of what is going on here. It sounds like he sold you the car and then found a car that he wants and the dealer asked him if he had a trade and he said no that he sold it privately. Then the dealer told him had he sold to you through the dealer (like a pass-through) then he would have got trade-in credit by trading it in to the dealer and then the dealer selling it to you for what they bought it from him for. By doing it this way he MAKES $$$ on the deal by saving in his taxes. He would then only pay tax on the difference between his new car and the amount he "traded-in". It could be substantial. For example if you bought the car for $60K and the tax rate is 6% that he is pocketing almost $4000 by using the dealer as a pass through!!! Is he sharing that with you? No. The reason he might need the title is that he will give the dealer the title, the dealer will own it for one day, and sell it to you. That will also add another "previous owner" to the whole deal as well. Should you even consider his request? Personally I would say no. A title is almost like cash. You send it to him and he decides to stop taking your calls, etc., and guess what, you wake up one morning and you car is gone because the "rightful" owner has reposessed it. As another poster stated you need to really question the entire sale now. THOROUGHLY inspect that car when you get it. In other words, get a PPI done immediately. Except here the first P in PPI now stands for post and not pre. Oh yeah, and don't forget to go put that title in a safe place. You paid the guy, you have received the car (almost). As far I can see, your communication with this guy is done. Worst case scenario.....you disregard our advice and fedex him the title and then you never hear from him and you car that was supposed to be on a truck never was and you are out a car and all the cash you spent. Don't be the next story on the local news about the guy who got scammed.

What he wants to do is an "in and out", where, on paper, he sells the car to the dealer then the dealer immediately sells it to you "as is". Then if he buys a car from the dealer he's taxed like its a trade in. After you get the car in your possession consider doing it if he will give you some type of security. You should also talk to a manager at the dealer he's working with, make sure he's paid any fees the dealer charges. The seller made the mistake of not getting you to agree to this ahead of time.

I have done this in & out. Why not? But not after the sale. If you send the title, the dealer process it and will have to send it to you, possibly after some period of time. I agree on the incentive. Your seller should pay you to send the title to the dealer , which you should contact and qualify as what will happen. If all is well, you'll make a little, $500 isn't too much to ask IMO as this is close to $3,000 savings, and the dealer sends you a clear title. But make sure the dealer is a reputable one, or you're still out. If the seller doesn't want to share the gain, forget it. Also if your c4s has the Porsche extended warranty you need to be sure it is not a Porsche dealer or you will lose the warranty.

OK let me get this straight!! You paid the money. You have the title. The car is NOT in your posession yet? You're thinking of sending the title BACK to the seller. DON"T DO IT!!!!

There is a reason why you get more when you sell private versus trade-in. Selling private MAXIMIZES your profit but it usually is close to a wash when you trade-in since you get the tax credit (granted you are in a tax credit on trade-in state). If this is in fact a legit guy and the story behind the need for the title then he is making a cool $3-4K in profit on top of the private party sale. not bad for spending a couple bucks in FedEx to make more money on the sale. My suggestion if EVERYTHING checks out should you decide to agree to this is to split the difference of the tax credit. Should you decide to go on faith and believe this story then there are things to understand: 1. If the C4S is a CPO then you lose that by going through a non-Porsche dealer. 2. If the dealer he is using is a Porsche dealer and your car in NOT a CPO then ask to have it CPO'ed. (but, unlikey since the car is not able to be inspected) and if it is a Porsche dealer and the car was a CPO then they need to CPO it again. 3. Remember, that you entering into a legal transaction with the dealer and everything that goes with that. 4. There are fees that would need to be paid that are standard on every sale so the other guy would need to be responsible for that. 5. You would not legally own the car during this whole process until everthing is completed and the new title from the dealer's sale to you is in your posession. This is something that I personally would not do post hoc. Had this all been dislosed ahead of time and you were aware that the seller was buying a new car and that his new dealer was brokering the deal as a pass-through then it would have been easier to feel confident. But now? NO WAY.

Thanks so much for the responses, I believe that is in fact what he's intending, which is to treat the car as a trade in. We had, at one time, agreed to meet at a dealer to make this transaction happen, but he couldn't decide between the Jag and the Aston, so he let me just take it. If I lived back there, it would be easier, but being so far away it doesn't look good. I like the idea of dealing directly with the dealer for a cut of the tax credit, although the whole thing sounds a bit shifty. I'd rather we just all pay our fees and go on our motoring ways...

Good choice. Going with your gut is what is usually the best decision.

Not worth the few hundred bucks, I would pass. All this wheeling and dealing should have been laid out in the open before you consumated the deal. If he meant to do it before, then just got in a hurry to get the cash and now he wants it both ways, forget it, his tough luck. Goes in the life's a bitch then you marry one catagory.

Yeah, you're right Chris. I just sent him a note saying no-go. He sold the car for almost 5 grand more to me than the dealer was going to pay him, so he's still ahead a bit. I need him to sign an odometer certificate when I title the car in CA, let's hope he doesn't hold a grudge.

I know part of that saying, but it's the first I've heard this spin. Funny!!

Interesting scenerio for him. But I would absolutely not send him the BOS. He no doubt wants the dealer to "wash" the transaction to save some taxes. This is no longer acceptable in many states and most dealers I know will not do this as they used to back in the "old" days. As everyone has said, you paid your money and you're waiting for your car...hopefully, your car gets delivered properly and the seller should hold no ill wil toward you. Keep us posted and good luck!

Smart decision - he should understand if he's really a good guy - good luck and I hope you enjoy the car when it gets to you! - Sean

.......and don't forget to post pics when you get that beauty!

Did he sign the title to you? If so, the mileage at the sale should be on the title which is all you need. The rest of it is just getting the car smogged in CA, making appt to DMV with the paperwork filled (download from dmv.ca.org) and bring a checkbook.

Nah, the Pennsylvania title did not have anywhere to write the mileage on it, just a place to "release the lein", which he signed. I think we're all good - he's on his own, and I'm counting down the day...

One way to make both parties feel comfortable would be for him to return your money, then you fedex him back the title. He could then go to the dealer, list it as a trade, and you could send your money to the dealer who would then fedex you back the title. The dealer gets your money, he gets his sales tax savings, and you get your car. You're going to be sitting there with the car, so you'll be completely safe.

searching.....if that route is taken then Rick no longer owns the car (gave up the title) and runs the risk of the original owner (or dealer for that matter) selling the car out from under him. They have the legal right to do that since Rick would have sent the title back BEFORE he registered the car. Doesn't sound completely safe at all. I think this matter is closed anyway. Rick has already stated no-go and that the seller is "on his own". As Chris said, this is something that should have been taken care of and negotiated on the front side not post hoc.

I am in a interesting "title" position as well....... I financed my vehicle through Bank One, who also happened to be the finance company the PO used. I sent my check to Bank One which paid off his note. Bank One sent him the title (lien free), which he sent to me i n order to title the vehicle in Texas. The vehicle was used as the collateral for my loan, but I now have in my hand a "free & clear" title to my vehicle & got a letter from Bank One asking me to write them in as lien holder when I transfer the title...... Sorry for the threadjack, but this just tickles me to no end! - Cam

Look at the back of the title. On PA titles there's a tamper resistant space where the mileage has to be written and the seller has to sign in the presence of a notary. The purchaser also has to sign the back of the title (although that doesn't need to be notarized). If that wasn't done, you might have to send the title back to the seller to have it properly executed. If you have a properly executed Bill of Sale and possesion of the car, sending back the title shouldn't be a big deal. Worst case scenario, he doesn't return the title, you just declare it "lost" and apply for another one. You have the car and a valid contract of sale proving ownership.

Nut, here's a detailed description of what your seller is trying to do: http://www.galves.com/gal_consumerinfo_howtrade.asp I don't think that it's particularly unreasonable of him to have asked, but I can totally understand why you are feeling a little uncomfortable with the whole proposition. Perhaps if you knew the seller and the dealer a little (a lot?) better, it would be more acceptable for you, but things being what they are, I think you made the right decision. Frankly, he already got a better price selling privately as Dell mentioned than trading in to the dealer. But, I don't think it is a lose-lose scenario for you. He likely will have to refund your money. Then you send the title to him/the dealer. Then you pay the dealer and they send you the title. It seems a bit of hassle, but perhaps it gives you some good karma. Would I do it? Can't say for sure. It would really only happen if it was an authorized Porsche dealer. Meanwhile, here's a quick question, don't you have to pay taxes on your car when you register it? Maybe you can negotiate with the guy to split the taxes 50/50 to offset your fees in California. Food for thought...

Great points, all. On the Pennsylvania title, we were informed by a notary (at the bank where we did the financial transaction) that the back of the title can only be handled by a dealer, so we left with him just signing the title releasing the lein. I figured I'd be issued a new title in CA, so no big deal. I didn't even think to get a bill of sale, since CA DMV only requires a title and an odometer statement. I'll feel better when this thing is all done...

I'm not saying the bank notary is wrong, but I've sold a few cars in PA (I'm not a dealer) and every time I've had to fill out the back of the title with the odometer reading (I think federal law requires some kind of odometer statement whenever a vehicle is sold). The front just records the lien information. The actual assignment of the title to transfer ownership is on the back. That is the way the PA auto tag agency told me to do it. CA might not care when you register your car, but to be safe don't burn your bridges with the seller, you might need him to sign some additional documents. OK, I take it back, I am saying the bank notary is wrong. BTW, if you do end up having to send the title back to the seller, have him execute a Bill of Sale evidencing the sale of the car to you BEFORE you mail off the title. That way if the title is lost, there is written evidence of your ownership of the car.

The drama continues - he e-mailed me this morning saying he needed merely the most recent registration document (he'd given it to me so I'd have a registration on my trip to Charlotte) and a copy of my drivers license and proof of insurance. For all I know he's leasing a new Aston in my name. Then, about an hour ago, he e-mailed me to say he'd found a NEW dealer who could work it out without anything from me. While we still have a dialog going, I'm going to get him to sign a bill of sale with the odometer reading, and hope it's all good. Meanwhile, thanks to satellite tracking, I see my car is in Mesquite, TX - If it wasn't Christmas in a few days, I'd hop on a plane tomorrow and go get it!

DL and proof on insurance??? WTF is going on? I can't believe the crap this guy feeding you. I wouldn't do a thing till the car is in your driveway and then.....and only then....would I go register the car with your local title office. If they ask for a proof of odometer then go from there but as of right now this gets more and more suspicious by the minute. Don't you find it odd that a "new" dealer could work it out. As many have said, this guy should have had this ALL worked out ahead of time. Now he puts on the full court press. Keep us posted. I would sure hate to see this turn out bad for you but I just smell something bad cooking.

Dell is spot on. I am getting a little nervous for you. The best thing that you can do is speak to a dealership that you trust in order to get some more unbiased information on what exactly THEY would need if you wanted to do the same thing and then just compare it to what the seller is asking of you. Indeed, if you really wanted to be accurate, call up a Porsche dealership in Pennsylvania. Brandywine is there and they are good people. I am sure they could advise you. Good luck and enjoy your car when it arrives. Oh yeah...so as to beat Dell, Evo, Surgeon, and DJ to the bunch: Pics and mods next, baby!!!

Thanks for the concern, I'm actually not worried. I'll have the car, I have the title, not much can go wrong. At this point it's like a carwreck for the guy though, I'll keep you posted. The mods will start in a hurry, no worries - when the car gets here I have to write out another check for 5 grand just for tax and registration. I could try to drive it with Pennsylvania plates for a few months and go wheels and exhaust first, but you know...

You need to title it within a month after the purchase in CA. It's mentioned on DMV's site. If you don't, you will pay extra taxes later. You don't need any bill of sales or odometer paperwork. Just bring the car to DMV and they'll inspect the VIN, odometer and the smog certificate. The seller is getting desperate and his dealer is feeding his with lies. It's better to ignore him until you the the car and title it first.

Nutbeem - I'm worried that you're being too nice and this story will have some type of unhappy ending - why is this guy so hell bent on saving a couple grand in taxes when he got more for the car from you than he would on a dealer trade in?? If I were him, I'd say, oh well, I screwed up, but I sold my car, and I don't want to drag someone else into a mess....

I think the prior seller is so hell bent on saving a few grand in taxes because it's a few grand...and it's taxes. People drive an hour each way in Pennsylvania to save $40 in sales tax by buying in delaware. I really don't think this fellow is out to scam you, he was just disorganized in his car buying plans and it's now backfiring on him.

I agree, but...I've made mistakes that cost me a little money - and I've made decisions that have made me money. In a case like this, if I were the seller, I would just cut my losses and not inconvenience or worry a stranger if I sensed that he was uncomfortable for any reason. The issues of a "new dealer" and other parts of this story don't completely add up to me, but perhaps I'm missing something. I hope the story does have a happy ending - Nutbeem: we wish you well and look forward to hearing the outcome, but most importantly look forward to hearing about how you like your "new" car and seeing pics...

UPDATE - Got an e-mail this morning, he went out and bought a new M3 last night, and all is well. Who knows what he worked out with the dealer, but he seems to have agreed with our logic - maybe he read the posts? LOL Thanks again everyone, and I'll post pics'a'plenty when the car gets here.

Never trust a guy who chooses an M3 over a 996 - ha ha... Just kidding if any of you own one...the M3 is a great car, just different, but I think that topic has been covered plenty in other threads.

Rick, glad to hear this is finally done (except for delivery of the car). Looking forward to the pics

Probably not an issue as you will need to show up with the car at the DMV for inspection of VIN and your smog cert anyway - likely they will register and title without the odo cert if you state the seller was no longer available. Worst case is you would have to state mileage authenticity as unknown when you sell / apply for title/reg.

So-o where is your car now??

Argh - Still in Mesquite. I think there is no "satellite tracking", it just feeds you some BS location to get you off their backs. I'll check back tomorrow and it will say "Naples, Florida". Even though I paid for "Enclosed, top load", I'm probably on an open trailer, on the bottom under a 1986 Hyundai Excel leaking clutch fluid and 10 year old Quaker State...

As long as its not under a Jaguar, you'll be fine Hope it all works out for ya!!

Did you get your car yet ????

Thanks for asking, I've watched it move across Texas, New Mexico and Arizona today - it's just outside Phoenix right now, could it be in LA tomorrow?

Someone just dropped off a nice porsche at my house, but he had the wrong address. OH! well I'll just keep it I guess....Just Kidding - I could sense a porsche comming though phoenix.

LOL - It's in Goodyear as of 8:30 PST. Let's see, I could hop on a Southwest flight to Phoenix for $99 bucks, rent a car for $40, hit Goodyear, grab the car, drive it back by dinnertime!

That's the Porsche spirit!!!

After 3 grueling weeks, I picked the C4S up from the shipper yesterday and brought it home. A new baby AND a new Porsche in the last 6 months - life is good! Thanks to all for your input and I'll post pics this weekend as soon as I get her up to snuff!

We'll be waiting

3 wks including wait time for the truck to pick up? Or 3 wk in transit? Congrats and let us know what your impressions are.