Header shootout

After reading the Dog's header story, I think it's high time we got a multi-brand header dyno shootout going. One NA car, several different sets of headers (no charge of course) back to back one dyno at an unaffiliated shop on the same day. Time for all the header makers to put up or shut up. Any predictions? Probably come down to fabspeeed and suncoast.

I would bet that just by looking at the collectors you could tell which would win. This is assuming they are not like the stock type headers which dump the primaries in along the way before the collector. I.E. look like the fab's from outside not oem from outside (think design of the header primary tubest to collector). I found the B&B's the best in this reguard, and I believe fabspeeds or some other manufacture are somewhat simular, but cannot say for sure. I am not talking about the knock offs that just leave the four pipes to smack into the colletor like were shown in a recent thread, but those that merge them and direct the flow towards the collector and the collector is long enough to smooth the transition and not create turbulence. This design is simular to the firecone or whatever design of JBA's for fords.

What did you think of my headers SPR? Mine use a merge collector.

Here's a pic of the stock v. my B&B's. I really wish I took a pic of inside the collector. http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/underc...2a.jpg&.src=ph Assuming that your headers were that recent thread,the primary design is fine, but it seemed that there might be some slight turbulence issues in the collector, albeit reduced by the innner flanges that are put in there. It looks like that one primary might dump into the collector a bit. Take a pic of yours outside and mine and put them side to side and you will see what I mean about how the pipes merge into the collector. I like the coating, mine also have the coating they are just filty and I am too lazy to clean them Have you installed yours yet? I noticed the difference by butt and sound. As a disclamer I notice very small changes so no, I don't think they gave me 100 hp and I don't think they did nothing at all.

Yes, I did install them. I also did before and after dynos on the day of intallation. Max gain of 27 rwhp at around the stock 5ish K dip and total peak gain of about 9 rwhp. I guess I had too much turbulence for those crappy gains

nice!

deputydog, isn't youre car SC'd tho?

yes, it is supercharged. it made the same HP on a NA car too though. you can go to www.suncoastporsche.com in the 996 parts section and see the dyno chart. i was a little skeptical too, so I figured I would try them out. What do you know, they worked. You do a get a brief dip in the lower end, but it's more than made up for by the gains in the 996 powerband (4.5Kish to redline).

^ you've peaked my interest. i'll look into them. thanks man. did you dyno ur car with the headers on B4 u sc'ed it? if so..what number did u get?

yes i did. i did a before and after on the same day, same dyno within about three hours. it went from about 415 to about 425 rear wheel HP. i was looking at your site? nicely done. great looking online store. just confiming, your prices are in Canadian dollars right?

yep

deadeye. i sent you a pm.

Dude the answer to his question is NO..... Maybe all the alcohol last night affected your reading ability....

oops. didn't read that right. my bad although my response does technically answer his question being that a stock C2 does not have 400 HP... just to clarify though, supercharger first.... then the headers. how's that gary? smartass and yes, nursing a bit of a hangover today

Gary, Its time for an intervention. Ever since the Deputy got that supercharger he has been addicted to doing additional mods to his car.

i know. somebody please stop me. i've been pricing suspensions and light weight fly wheels now.

^ Have you considered JIC Cross and or H&R coilovers (they have two specs, the top end being the RSS)? Their pricing seems to be compeditive with Bilstein on the market. Two other choices are D2 Racing and Tein, who are japanese manufacturers. Tein coilovers are 16way adjustable and offer in-cabin Electionic dampning control, and D2 are 36 way adjustable and height adjustable, but come with pillowball upper mounts and camber plates on the front units. Considering the price, the D2 unit is a very complete package that we should all be considering as an alternative to the PSS9's. D2 Description from their site and photos: The RS coilover system is a 36 way dampner and rebound adjustable monotube full coilover system. The setup has seperate height and preload adjustments allowing for optimal adjustment and allowing full strut travel at all times along with pillowball upper mounts or top mounts*. Mounts are constructed of 6061 powder coated aluminum. Threads are teflon coated to prevent rust. Rebuildable and serviceable in the US I should actually be getting in some LFW's for the 996 Carreras, PM me for pricing.

pm sent.

I think Fabspeed and Suncoast should each send Chris a set of headers , we'll do a few dyno runs find out once and for all.

Yeah, and still running mismatched tires since they were $50 cheaper

I know

Uhhh, no.... They were $250 cheaper. Each. That's $500 my friend. Almost enough to do plugs on Gary's car. And they're the same brand by the way. SP8000 in the rear and SP9000 up front. Close enough Who's Chris? And why would anyone need to send him a set of suncoast headers. I already did the testing on the suncoast headers. I don't have any affiliation with suncoast and I had them installed and dyno'd at an independent shop with nothing to gain. Somebody go out and buy some fabspeeds and dyno them like I did. I'd like to see the results too. As long as the dyno runs were done on the same day and same dyno, that's all you'll need. The accuracy of the numbers don't really matter for comparison, just the gains between the before and after. I still can't believe no one else on here has done any dyno testing on these exhaust systems with what they're charging for this stuff. It's not like it's a $300 part.

I've noticed suncoast has steadily increased the price of their headers on ebay after your postings here. They should send you a check! I've been thinking about the lightweight flywheel too................................. What are your thoughts on this part, do you think it would increase hp?

^ dallasboats, the lightwightflywheel (LFW) reduces the amount of deadweight (rotating mass) in the drivetrain, thus u loose less power from engine to ground because you're moving a lighted unit. Technically its more like making more efficient use of the power you already have, but it will show with more power being put down to the wheels (a dyno will reflect this). Most LFW's will prettymuch half the weight of a normal flywheel. You will also notice faster devving and deceleration when your off the throttle, it definitly improves the pure driving experience (thats my opinion, don't take it as gospel). LFW's make a slight chatter when you are at idle with the clutch out. This is the only time they make noise, when you are driving, they will not under accelleration. Hope this helps, let me know if you are intersted.

i'm not sure what's going on with their pricing. It was high, then it dropped. The price drop got me curious so I got a set and now it's up again. I assumed it was some sort of holiday pricing. You're right. I should get a commision I'm sure they've sold a few sets. I know what their cost is on this product and they're not making a ton of money on them. I've heard good things about the flywheel in our cars. Unfortunatley, people have done it but with no dyno or track testing. I'd be curious to see how much faster it revved on the dyno and if there were any HP gains. One complaint I have heard is that they're fairly noisy. There's a few guys on 6speed with them.

there should also be a few guys on here with them (lots of GT3 guys will use the single mass GT3 RS flywheel for instance, or will use the EVOMS LFW). The best analogy i can draw is to the Mazda RX-8 which comes with a light weight flywheel and driveshaft right from the factory. The car revs very quickly and when you lift off, decelerates quickly too. So far i've sold and installed a LFW for a Mitsubishi eclipse spider and a Mazda 6. The mitsubishi might have been making a slight chatter, but i couldn't notice it because it had an aftermarket exhaust (top was down on my test drive). On the mazda 6, we installed the factory MAZDASPEED unit and there was no chatter at all.

Hmmm... 500... That's a drop in the bucket fro a "balla" like you with a 42" in the "crib's" kitchen.... and if I was going to buy the headers for my C2, I would want to see the results first hand on a dyno with a non SC'd car... I know they have the dyno charts on their site, but so does every other company selling them... We really have NO way to know if a non SC'd car will get the same results unless it is dyno'd like you did.. Before and after in person... Hmm, so let me get this straight... Your looking for a new suspension for better handling... Spending more money on purchase and installation, but your tires are close enough.. My friend.. I can't agree with you on that one.. When your view was, my springs are fine and the tires don't matter since I don't track, I could agree with you.. But if your looking for suspension to set your car up better, then I would say the rubber does matter... (You may want to put the extra set of mismatched rubber you have in my climate controled storage unit instead of the 100+ degree garage... It's free to ) And you better be careful with the lightweight fW and clutch... The next time your wife takes it down to the store to pick up some groceries she will be hating it worse than she does the 42" once you do the clutch and FW..

This is true. I think that once DD gets his coilovers and does 1 track event he will be getting some new tires. When you do the LWF you will of course change the clutch for something a little bit sportier. (Drive a car with this set up 1st. How often does the wife drive the 911 anyways?) Finally, get some better brake pads on that thing!

I would normally tend to agree with you on "it needs to be dyno'd on an NA car" point, but.... when I spoke to the distributor i asked him what he got on his car (which is NA). he said around 28 in the middle and 11 on top. unless he was using his magic 8 ball on the phone, I'd say my supercharger had no effect on the results as I ended up with exactly the same as he did. i'm sure it wasn't a coincidence. my springs used to fine. now they ride like crap. i have used just springs on previous cars with no problems. i didn't get so lucky this time. i told you when my rears wear out, i'll order a set of ps2's. all the way around my front tires were still in great shape and I couldn't find the matching rears. not sure if they were dicontinued or what. i didn't want to throw away two front tires with 80 pecent tread to get matching rears. they're the same brand, just slightly different models (9000 and 8000). how different can they be? right now it's my suspension that's the culprit though. it's very nerve racking when the car is bobbing through a corner at high speed. i'm not talking about a stage 4 clutch, just something a little stronger with a LWF. she won't hear the LWF chatter over the headers anyway it is my understanding if you buy the right one there aren't any stalling issues, etc...

By the way, Luis is banned from driving my car any more. I finally went out and cleaned it the other day. I sprayed the wheels with the hose and I had a black river running down the driveway. I've never seen that before and I attribute it to Luis Andretti heal/toeing it over by Gary's house

Just bustin your ***** my friend.... Lunch at your favorite watering hole... at 11:45 with Luis... You in?

Sorry, I was just "shaking the cobwebs" and driving it like its meant to be driven. It is not my fault that you have 3 year old 20,000 mile stock pads on a 450hp SC 996.

I think I'm going to try the flywheel soon. It sounds like a neat to me modification! I just had the wheels swapped for light weight RSGT's and I'm changing the battery in the next few weeks for a light weight version. Next is the hood for cf and possibly some light seats.

they DO make noise under acceleration. when in a lower gear under acceleration, you WILL hear gear noise. just downshift and the noise won't be so evident. when downshifting while decelerating you WILL hear some gear noise as well. if you are the type who doesn't like rattels from the interiour of your car or if you want your porsche to be quiet then this is NOT the mod for you. if you want extra performance and don't mind your car sounding like a bucket of bolts then this is it. how do i know this? just jeck my sig i actually love this mod but i just want to get the facts straight and not sugar coat the added noise you WILL get.

oops. missed the post. maybe later this week?

hey dallas, check my response to deadeye. i would go with seats before the hood. there is a lot of weight in the seats whic you will get rid of over the weight savings of a carbon hood. 50lbs vs. 15lbs. you will get better weight ditribution by leaving the steel hood on instead of having a lighter front end with a carbon hood. i would not bother with the LWF unless you need to change out the clutch. this would be the perfect time. you can also do it with an RMS change too

Carlos: Got a few questions regarding your LWF. How much was it? How many hours of labor were involved to install it? Did you upgrade the clutch at the same time? Any problems with stalling or the car not running properly? If I remember right, you had a few issues after your SC install didn't you? Is it a very noticeable difference in performance? If you had to quantify the noise increase by percentages, how much louder is it over stock? Is it totally obnoxious? EVO wants around $2500 for their clutch LFW setup. Seems a little pricey. Would you do it again?

Yeah, missed the post and would not answer Luis's or my calls.... So Heidi, Luis and I had lunch (and beers) without you....

my phone died after i hung up with luis. bummer.

Andrew, Are you down for a drive? Patterson Rd?

i have an aasco unit. FVD and EVO (i believe) sell this unit as well. mine was around 900. here's the AASCO LWF i think it's about 5~6 hours. i only did this mod when i needed a new clutch. i wouldn't bother until the clutch needed replacing. before the SC, the car did stall after disengaging the clutch and coasting from freeway speeds (coming off the freeway). may have been because of my setup. i had cut a hole in my compsoite decklid which fed the evo v-flow. this could have helped with stalling. the MAF could have sense too much flow and shut down the gas enough and, with the LWF, could have helped stall the engine. no stalling accelerating from a stop in normal and aggressive driving though. i wish had done somebefore and after testing but sorry, no data. i do feel faster acceleration and a more responsive throttle. well, stock being silent the LWF noise increase is 100% but OEM being 0 and straight cut race transmission then the LWF would be 25. yes and no. if the car was just a street GT cruiser then no i wouldn't but for my current street/track/future race car then yes i would do it again. if i already had the SC then i probably wouldn't bother with the LWF. if i were to keep the 996 NA then and was looking to squeeze everything out of it, i would do it again. one thing i did notice. when the windows are down, the noise from the wind , engine and exhaust drown out the gear noise so for a convertible the noise might not be as noticable.

You were on the phone when I called you... I have the same service and know what the little beep means at the end of the ring...

beats me then. it never rang and nobody beeped in.... my phone service in the house sucks. i usually have to go outside to use the broadband card on my laptop. verizon says we're in between two towers and the phones have a hard time choosing one.

thanks for the info carlos. did you upgrade your clutch? i am still running the stock clutch with the supercharger.

Price out other stuff as well before dropping $2500 on the evo. http://www.gmgracing.com/PorschePage...rive_train.htm

thanks for chimming in man. How would you define the noise associated with the flwheel? on a scale of 1-10. 1 being a mild squeek comparable 2 a loose trim bit...and 10 being a full dog box sequential transmission a la cup car

here's the thing, to some a mild squeak can be a 5 IMHO the gear noise, when i first had it installed, was a 7 but i have gotten used to it and it's 4 but when my wife is in my car it goes back to a 7

that' unit looks like mine, an AASCO. good price just make sure it has 8 crank bolt holes not 9.

yes i did upgrade the clutch. i got a stage 3 clutchmasters clutch. i would not go with them again. there are several parts missing from the kit (pilot bearing, release bearing, IIRC) so my shop had to scramble and get some oem parts. it's a segmented kevlar sachs disc and uprated pressure plate. it says it's good for an extra 100HP NOS shot or mild supercharger/turbocharger. i may try a SPEC clutch next.

^ carlos, can you reuse the original pilot bearing and release bearing off the car if ur clutch isn't toast?

dunno but you might as well use new parts since the tranny is out.

I did he LWFW and it is a great but noisy upgrade. Someone did the math and in first gear it was a virtual 31hp gain in first 11 2nd in the GT3. In the GT3 the weight reduction is 15 pounds. I would expect it is the same. I went with the Sachs which is the Cup car set up. About $2300 for the whole set up wheel,ring, plate,clutch,guide tube, pilotbearing,through out, bolts. Do not know the labor dealer took care of that.

Carlos, I have a Spec in my racecar, I like it alot. I went to their website yesterday to see if I could recomend one to Deputydog but they only seem to make them for 911's trough 1994. Is this correct or is their website in need of updating?

LUIS, SPEC's site is outdated. THey make clutches for 996's as well. i'll post up a part #

I assume they also make clutches for 993's, correct?

yep. i just checked their site. www.specclutch.com

they do make them for the 996