Rear Intermediate Shaft Support Bearing Failure

Just had this diagnosis on my well-maintained 2002 C4 cab. Shop recommends engine replacement. Out of warranty. Car has only 38,000 miles on it. Any idea whether Porsche will accomodate me in some way given the nature of the failure and the mileage of the car? Thanks.

Seriously doubt that. Has mechanical damage actually occured as a result of the failed bearing or is the bearing simply (!) making noise? If the latter, there are alternatives in the form of a replacement bearing.

Take a look at this site: http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html I think this is what Doug Donsbach is referring to. Withan 02' you should have the single row bearing which is easier to replace. So if no major damage has occured, i.e. the chain did not skip and valves did not crash, you may have a good alternative to full engine replacement. Many parties still follow Porsche's original policy that if anything goes wrong on a 996 engine you have to replace it, but that is really not the case. I would also drop the oil pan to check for pieces of metal from the bearing. Let us know how it goes.

More than likely we can save this engine!!! Lots of shops do not know about our procedure and Porsche says it can't be done!!! Contrary to Porsche's statements these engines can be repaired. We have the bearing technology and specialized tools to make this happen.. See this article on my site: http://www.flat6innovations.com/savi...e-ims-retrofit Get a second opinion, preferrably from someone that doesn't follow the Porsche rules. ( I have three engines and two cars on the way to us now from various parts of the country to have this repaired as they already have failed bearings)

I know nothing about engines, but from what I understand the bearing basically disintegrated and there is major mechanical damage. Maybe Porsche won't offer assistance, but they'll have lost a lifetime customer if that's the case. I'll let you know how it turns out. Any additional advice or thoughts would be appreciated.

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Have you scheduled your Audi A8 test drive yet? Give the guys at Aston Martin a call too. The Vantage looks great and I'm sure they'd love to have you business. Seriously though, you are *not* the first guy to have a low mileage motor fail catastrophically from the IMS failure. Porsche hasn't goodwilled a motor replacement for a very long time and it's unlikely they'll make an exception in your case. If you're still under some kind of warranty that's different of course. Good luck.

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So what's the price of the work you illustrated on your website?

Lots of things to consider, are you original owner, did you keep all your service records, porshe often has as good of customer service as the customer was as a customer.

The work on our site is basically the same cost as a clutch replacement, since all the work is the same but instead of just updating the IMS flange, we also do the bearing.. Its a 1500-2K job parts and labor if the vehicle is shipped to us. If the engine is out of the car its a 850.00 job including the IMS retrofit kit and install. These prices are changing as development continues and are tentative. Lots of IMS bearings fail at this mileage, if you make it past 45K its usually goof for 65K, if you make it past 70K it'll usually never occur. NOTHING is worse for the IMS failure than driving the car easy or cruising at 55 MPH, or if you are a "peddler" as you drive... Don't expect goodwill from Porsche. You can try, but only if you are bored and have nothing better to do with your time. If the bearing totally fails and the pistons do not collide with the valves or the engine doesn't ingest debris we can repair it more than likely... Every Porsche Service Writer that has seen the article has been in dis-belief... Imagine that, they have no grease under their fingernails and run around all day coaching a bunch of parts changers...

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it seems i have to make a 4500 mile road trip to get my car past 70k.

I am at 84K so I guess the probability of my engine leaving me greatly diminishes?

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did your car leaked as an early symptom... or it just failed in an instant? Sorry to hear about the engine.

The amont of engines we see with failures past 70K are few.. After that point it'll run until it wears out and starts burning a quart of oil/week..

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Jake - that seems like a VERY reasonable cost given the only other option of engine replacement!

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We tend to agree!! My primary business is upgrades and engine builds, so I know how expensive things are when the engine says "Bye Bye" due to an IMS bearing grenading it's self.

My cars has had this issue at 81k miles. Previous owner used it as a DD for 3 years and then parked it for a few weeks to enjoy his new toy. Next time the pcar went on a drive the engine self destructed. Porsche diagnosed it as a this IMS bearing issue and replaced the engine under extended warranty. I bought the car from him at 83k miles...

Redridge, It never leaked a drop of oil and had no prior mechanical issues or problems, major or minor. I drive with the top down most of the time and never heard the slightest unusual noise prior to complete failure.

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Your previous owner's experience seems to support the thought that a frequently used car is a bit less likely to experience these failures. I'm glad I use mine every day!

I drive mine mine everyday as well.. but just b/c I cant get enough (yet-I guess) I wait till its nice and late the the highways are sort of empty and go for a drive My wife thinks Im nuts and cant figure out where the heck Im going... " a few exits up the belt " sounds strange to her I guess I can tell her its preventative maintenance.

Question for Jake. 97k daily driver, no issues. Should it still be driven like u stole it or start pampering? Of course, I always wait till temp. has stabilized before going over 4k rpm, but so far I do 15k oil change intervals.

Drive it like a Porsche.. This isn't a Camry or a PT Cruiser. I have 24,000 over revs logged in the ECU of my test car and last week I held it at 7K for 4 hours (only stopping when the water temp hit 250F) to let it cool down before another round)doing some endurance testing of the IMS retrofit so we could pull the bearing to inspect it this week. The engine got so hot that the header bolts exploded and I have video of the headers glowing white as well as video. I have treated that car as a mule since day one and I cannot break the engine. I will not recommend anything for maintenance for your vehicle, due to liability. I will only state that I mandate oil services at 7K miles for the engines that I build and these engines do not use a Porsche recommended oil- They are under my warranty- not Porsches and Mobil 1 hasn't bought my soul.(I WILL NOT SHARE OIL RECOMMENDATIONS, PUBLICLY OR PRIVATELY!!) ANY engine can experience ANY of the 15 different modes of failure we have identified at any mileage point. None are more or less prone than others, but we do keep records and do have statistics from those who call us daily with a sad story. Since 0930 this morning I have answered 3 calls related to IMS failures, one call to a cylinder D chunk failure and one call of a rod bolt failure... Thats 3 of the 15 modes of failure represented in less than 6 hours! Most of the people that call me were driving 55-60 when their engine failed!

Here are some pics of my headers... They stayed this hot for hours, engine runs as good now and makes the same power as it did prior to this punishment session. (video to follow)

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taking a queue from tim: that just means i've got to keep it at autobahn speeds

(I will not recommend anything for maintenance for your vehicle, due to liability. I will only state that I mandate oil services at 7K miles for the engines that I build and these engines do not use a Porsche recommended oil- They are under my warranty- not Porsches and Mobil 1 hasn't bought my soul.(I WILL NOT SHARE OIL RECOMMENDATIONS, PUBLICLY OR PRIVATELY!!)) But you do in your website! That's public.

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Not on MY site!! There is no mention of preferred oils or lubricants for the M96/7 engine found at www.flat6innovations.com You must have my site confused with another.

Stand corrected. I hope you have no connection with the IMS bearing vodoo god!

Jake - I am not quite sure why you won't share your experience on lubricants. Is it a potential liability issue or what. You have always been very generous with your time and knowledge in all of our dealings.

I'm at 53k and change. I hope I never have to use Jake's services, but if I ever have a major engine issue, it's off to Cleveland, Georgia.

Jake - so what do you think are my chances with a 3.6 crate motor installed in Feb 2005 which has 40K miles logged on it ? No idea how the PO drove it. I guess I'm asking if Porsche made any meaningful improvements between 2002 and early 2005. Thanks

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I recently read in Excellence magazine that the IMS was upgraded in MY2006.

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Absolutely.. Liability and it is WAYYY too controversial of a topic with too many damn experts on the subject.. It is a very sore subject with me and I won't share it with anyone until they buy my engine.. Our engines are different, so my recommendations don't apply to others due to beariung coatings, cylinder plating and running clearances.. The quickest way to start a battle that no one can win is to start an oil debate... And defying what the almighty Porsche factory recommends is an absolute cardinal sin in the eyes of those who drik that special flavored Kool Aid... We see just as many reman engines fail as those that are OE, they didn't do anything of significance until 2006 and those engines don't have enough time on them to judge at this point.

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well thats not very reassuring. Thanks Jake, always read your posts with much interest. Lost my original engine two years ago now and was under the impression this issue was dealt with by the time I received my new motor. A couple of questions, if it were to happen again. Would I send you my motor to be rebuilt or do you have a core exchange program? Also, baring the expense would it possible / feasible to have a 996 GT3 motor as a replacement? Thanks again for all your great posts on the subject. Geoff

Geoff, It would be best if we take this off the list. You can email me for more details and I'll be happy to assist.

Hello Jake, Is there an Indy in Australia who supplies your product and does your upgrades and rebuilds?

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We are working to diversify the aircooled agent that we have in Australia to working with these engines as well, as we have a long standing relationship with him. He is coming for training here at our facility in July.

Thanks Jake -- it will be good to have an Aussie fix avaliable -- my 2002 996 is the "love of my life" and it will be good "insurance" to know that proper rebuilds/upgrades are available here.

Wow, great information here... that I hope I never need. Thanks Jake. 2nd IMS seal at 50K miles.

In two weeks I have an appointment to do the clutch. At the same time I am replacing the IMS assembly with the one produced by Inengineering. My 2001 C4 has 96,000 miles with absolutely no engine issues other than the tangential ones of now needing a clutch and recent replacement of the engine and transmission mounts. Despite the lack of symptoms, having read the horror stories here and elsewhere, I am replacing the IMS with an apparently bullet proof after market assembly. I am also putting in a low temp thermostat highly recommended by Inengeering, and their spin on full size oil filter adapter and an oil plug with a magnet. In addition, I am replacing the shift assembly with a 997 shift assembly and am replacing the chain tensioner with the newer version on advice of Inengineering. I intend to drive my 2001 C4 until it melts. I put on a huge amount of highway miles commuting two plus hours each way. The 997 shift assembly is a substitute for putting in an after market short shifter. I change the oil every 5K miles and never exceed 3,000 RPM until the motor and transmission are thoroughly warmed up. I believe that the IMS replacement is prudent preventive maintenance. A number of Porsche garages have represented to me that the IMS should be regarded as a part that must be periodically replaced. Regards, George C. McKinnis Bronxville, NY

welcome and thanks for the info... there has been "some" talk on that issue around here.... take a moment to post a new thread and introduce yourself, maybe even post a pic of you car.. take care

Followup to IMS bearing replacement during clutch replacement: the bearing assembly that was taken out in order to insert the after market bearing assembly was inspected by the company that supplies the after market assembly. At 96K miles, the factory double race bearing assembly showed no signs of excessive wear other than the engine side seal which was degraded and letting engine oil into the bearings. There is a distinct possibility that had I not done the replacement, I could have gone on for the life of the engine without bearing failure in that part, but, the C4 is my daily driver for a two hours per day commute. I no longer worry about that part failing. That cessation of worry was worth the cost of buying and installing the bullet proof after market part. I am now a few miles from 100K miles and have absolutely no mechanical problems. Cicerosecundus

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Hi Jake, Sounds great... I'd be interested in knowing how this works out.

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I feel it is the oil going through the bearing that is killing it.. The oil gets through the bearing in to the IMS tube and cooks. At that time you have burnt bad dirty oil in the bearing. Becasue it can not get fresh oil easy becasue the bearing is sealed on both sides... yes the oil gets through but not what it needs.. Thus why the LNE kit only has a seal on the tube side.. Not the flange side. I think your bearing was at the start of its end.

not to mention that oil expands and once the shaft is full enough, the expansion with blow the bearing off the end with hydrolic pressuse from thermal expansion

After the clutch, IMS and IS bearing replacement, i have just passed 100K miles on my 2001 C4 and the engine does not burn oil and is strong and steady. Jake, after a dead battery, I put in the code number for my cars combined radio and GPS factory system. I was then asked for the code for the GPS system, for the first time. I do not have a code card for the GPS, only for the total system which now does not work for the GPS. A Porsche agency told me that the system has to be removed, a serial number from the back of the system called into Porsche of America and only with that serial number can they give me the code for the GPS. That is very hard to believe. Do you know of a better way? Many thanks, George C. McKinnis Bronxville, NY

George.... start a new thread about your code problem or do a search..... hijacking a thread is frowned upon.

I have heard that the IMS bearing fails below a certain mileage, is that correct, I have a 1999 C4 Cab

Holy Thread Resurrection Batman! There are literally hundreds of posts examining this topic. Many have detailed information. No need to restate (and re-argue) any of that here. Suffice it to say there are differing opinions... the problem is very real and potentially catastrophic, but perhaps not in the frequency some claim. From PCA tech chairs to respected writers in magazines such as Excellence, lots of smart people strongly advise that owners either update their bearings to an LN design or install a warning system. The LN Engineering website also has extensive documentation of this problem and their solution. http://www.imsretrofit.com/

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