Advice needed: metal fragments in oil

Three years ago I bought my 2002 C4 Cab from an engineer who had meticulously cared for it. It had 42K miles on it. At 52K, 18 months ago, I had the LN Engineering IMS bearing replacement (single row for this car). The original bearing had lost its seal and was being lubricated by engine oil, but was still intact and working well. The car has never been tracked, nor stored. It has been driven regularly since I got it, nearly a daily driver. It now has 69K miles on the odometer. On Monday I had it at the dealer to have the transmission fluid changed (slight whine in 2nd and 3rd gears) and an oil change. It seemed to be taking a long time, and at 15 minutes to closing the Service Advisor called me with the bad news that they had found metal fragments in my oil. After some frantic emails, the LNE and Flat6 folks feel that it can�t possibly be the new IMSB, and I think they�ve got a point as the bearings are ceramic (although the races are steel). The Flat6 folks have weighed in to say that it�s likely a cam lobe or lifter. The fragments are ferrous, picked up by a magnet. Below is a pic of the fragments on the inside of the oil filter. I�m looking for help as to what to do next. The car still runs and looks fine, though I�m afraid to drive it much. I�m not the sort who can just drive it to an unsuspecting dealer and trade it in. Karma�s a bitch. I�ve got it parked at the indy who put in the bearing, and am told that replacing the cams is �silly money� meaning lots. I don�t know whether to have them drop the transmission and pull the LN IMSB, which would then have to be replaced whether it�s the source of the metal fragments or not, or to have them pull off the cam covers and look there first. The LN folks have also said that since the bearing has been exposed to metal fragments that it�s possible it could fail subsequently, even if it�s not the cause of the trouble. The other option is to trade it back to the Porsche dealer, and they have expressed some willingness to do so although I�m not sure what the trade-in value should or would be. The sad thing is that I�ve treated this car better than I�ve ever treated a car, and have done absolutely everything to avoid just this situation. Suggestions or ideas about what might be the source and how to go about finding out? Or should I just bail? I was really hoping to drive this car for a few more years, but I'm not so attached that I'll spend anything to fix it no matter what. Thanks in advance.

Tell them to drop the oilpan and check if there is some debries. That doesn't look too bad to me. I would clean the oilpan and drive 5k with new filter and oil, then check the filter again.

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+1

A detail I forgot to mention: There was a OBD code thrown that they describe as "in the past but not occurring now." The code is "P1325 Bank 2 Camshaft Adjustment" and they are thinking that it may be due to debris blocking a sensor then washing away later.

I disagree, we're looking at just ten pleats in that filter out of how many pleats total? How long has that filter been in there?

There is a big debate on very small flakes of that size, most seems to say it is not a big deal. I agree on removing the oil pan, that is surely your next step. It is not a big job and you need to see if something bigger is in there. We have heard a lot about rod bearing failure. I wonder if those flakes could be it ? Lifter or camshaft problem... I have never seen it on the forum but if LN and Flat6 have given you their feedback and considering they have nothing to sell you at this time, I would consider their suggestion. At least lifter or cam problem will not cause terminal failure.

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If a cam seizes in the journal, you better believe you could have a terminal failure.

How long on the oil and filter? I would definately drop the pan first to see what is what. If the pan has never been dropped before expect to see some metal shavings, some that may be involved in your issue, and some that have nothing to do with your issue are are merely from the engine manufacturing process.

Has the oil/filter been changed since the bearing upgrade? I would hope so based on the miles but I'm just asking. (The reason I bring this up is after any engine is opened even for something like a bearing upgrade this can result in a spike in trash in the oil filter.) The ferrous metal bits in the oil filter are on the surface scary but they may not be a sign of pending doom. First I assume the engine is quiet and running ok? No ticks, knocks or other noises that keep time with the engine speed? The camshaft timing error on bank 2 could be a sign the trouble, if there is any trouble, is on that bank. More on this below. What would I do?.... Well, if you drop the pan you may find scary bits of metal but they could have been there since day one. A new engine sheds metal trash and the bigger pieces end up at the bottom of the engine. In fact, this is where the metal in the filter might have come from. The oil sloshes around and moves the metal bits around and one just happens to get under the oil intake pipe opening. The mesh is not that fine and a fragment of metal is sucked up and of course goes through the oil pump and ends up in the filter. So you drop the pan and find metal but you have no way of knowing if the metal is fresh or from day one. So I'd be inclined to leave the oil pan alone. I guess at this point what I'd do is with fresh oil and a new filter installed start the engine and let it run a while. Chances are it has already been run as part of the oil change service. Let the engine idle to nearly warm. Stay close to the car/engine. If at the first sign of distress shut off the engine. I do not expect this but better safe than sorry. Now at the same time the engine is running if the car is in the air on a lift and you and a tech or two is under the car with a stethoscope giving the various engines areas a listen to out of the ordinary all the better use of your time and that of the engine running. After the engine has run a while shut it off and remove the filter housing and carefully pour the oil/filter element into a *clean* drain pain. If the oil and filter element come out free of metal bits this suggests the previous metal found is or was a fluke. If you find more metal bits there's likely a problem. In this case then the first place I'd suspect is the #2 cylinder bank. Something associated with it. Now if the camshaft error comes back or any any error related to VarioCam operation, in fact any error at all other than one caused by leaving the gas cap loose, that's a tip of the scales towards there being (possibly) more serious things wrong. In this case, it might be worth the expense to have the camshaft cover of the #2 cylinder bank removed and the hardware inspected for any signs of trouble.

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+1

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+1

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+1 on this except I would be checking the filter every 1000 miles! You don't have to replace it unless it has metal in it. You should have the camshaft timing deviation checked also. Every engine I have disassembled looks like new inside except the camshaft journal areas have some unusual wear. This suggests to me that when oil lubrication is suboptimal the cam journals are the 1st place to see it. If you follow Porsches recommendation & change your Mobil 1 0W/40 oil at 15,000 miles that is false economy. Better oil changed every 5,000 is cheaper in the long run.

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This is the third oil change since the bearing replacement. The first two were each after 5K miles, and I perhaps foolishly listened to the Porsche dealer Service Advisor when he assured me that changing the oil every 10K was ok. I got nervous at around 6-7K and brought it in for the change this past Monday. It runs well and quietly (too much so if you ask me) other than what I've noted below. The car does have a short stumble at cold startup. Coils and plugs were replaced with no change. I've seen several others chase this to the ends of the earth on this forum, and since it's a momentary problem and goes away after a few seconds, I've decided to let it be. I've recently posted about a very high-pitched whine at startup. The dealer thought that this was the air pump that regulates the temp of of the catalytic converters. I've priced out a replacement from Bosch at $600 but haven't pulled the trigger yet. The only other significant thing is that on three occasions recently with cold start, I've heard a strange sound. It lasts about a second and is a metallic screeching sound. I've tried to think what it sounds like, and the best I can do is to tell you that it sounds like a metallic version of Maria Sharapova's scream when she hits a tennis ball. It was the same duration and pitch. You only have to watch the first 10 seconds of the video to get the idea. No, Maria was not in my car when I heard this...again this has only occurred three times. You Tube

The startup noise is the Air Pump, the screeching noise (kind of like a saw blade?) is it beginning to fail apparently. The Porsche part is over $1400, the exact same part in a Bosch Box is around $300 from I believe it is Pelican Parts. If not them, then someone else, but it is well under $600. It's in another recent post here, my car is making a similar noise.

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I've heard the SAI pump case bolts can loosen, might be worth a check.

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Sorry, I gave you bad info. Not Pelican, I meant AutoAtlanta, a fellow Rennlister last week gave me this link. http://www.autoatlanta.com/results.p...605%20104%2000 The link gives you FOUR choices. Of the two Bosch versions the part number is the same, I can't see why the difference is besides a bit of money. Have not called them yet to inquire but this is the part.

Unless you have emmissions testing in your state, is the SAI even necessary to replace? Fortunately the State of Florida doesn't care how much we pollute our air. As long as the Manatees are protected we are good to go.

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& pay your property taxes!

You can easily rebuild the SAI too.

The exceptional quietness of the engine after the oil change -- especially if the oil had 6 to 7K miles -- is normal. The old oil was almost certainly diluted with water/unburned gasoline and thus thinner and the engine naturally noisier. I've heard a marked decrease in general engine clatter after changing oil after just 5K miles. The stumble at cold startup could arise from various things. The only time I've experienced any kind of stumble/hesitation with my cars is my Boxster and this behavior was due to a bad AOS. This was an early warning sign of a bad AOS. The high pitched whine is as others already covered very likely the secondary air injection pump. Now the metallic screeching sound is a bit troubling. My first thought is a slipping serpentine belt. How fresh is the belt? What's its condition? Might be worth while having the belt removed and seeing if the noise is present upon a cold start. If it is not then you are pretty sure the noise comes from the accessory drive area. If so then a check for any play at the accessory drives is called for. A water pump would be my choice for the #1 suspect but you may find an idler roller bearing dragging, a tensioner roller dragging, even the tensioner down on tension. And other accessory drives can fail too though less rarely (thank goodness) than the water pump. While you are there check the power steering fluid level. If this is low... well, we'll talk. If the noise is present with the belt removed suspicion has to turn to the already noisy secondary air injection pump. Or it could be a noise generated by a bad AOS. Or an air leak at say the oil filler tube cap.

P1325 is related to either the Variocam Plus solenoid or the vane assembly. It is very possible that the flakes blocked that solenoid action in the past. Do you have a method to log your actual cam angles?

At the oil change before this one -did the Tech check the filter for debris ?If yes and it was ok one conclusion would be that something is begining to fail .Based on other posts cams/lifters are a candidate .Pulling transmission and checking the IMS bearing is probably a second or third step .

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I've read posts in the 996TT forum that the lifters can start to disassemble and carve a groove into the holes they ride in. Not sure if 996 can have the same issue, but could cause the P1325. Edit: Link http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ml#post2829136

My $0.02, if you didn't have the pan dropped and cleaned when the LNE bearing was installed then do it now. Why take any further chance that more metal gets picked up? Also, I'd install the LNE Spin on adapter and a magnetic drain plug. Then after 1 or 2k miles pull off the filter, and check it, though obviously with a metal cannister, that is a lot more work, but still do-able. The spin on adapter allows there to be 100% oil filtration unless clogged, then the bypass opens, whereas the stock filter has a continuous bypass, so those metal bits can go round and round still they get stuck someplace. Those upgrades, while not really cheap, are not really expensive either, and have an easy resale with decent cost recovery, at a later date if you need to, so it's not wasted at all. I got my '02 C2 at 38k miles in '08, and those were among the first things I did. I checked the first 3 filters, and no debris of any kind, plus the magnetic drain plug never showed anything but a super fine film. When I installed the IMSG, I dropped the pan, and it was spotless inside. Turns out the pan was cracked, but that's another story. Nice to have that peace of mind, for me.

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Also, I recall reading on RL awhile back that someone corrected this problem by cleaning out the air pump with compressed air. He disconnected the hoses and used an air compressor to clean out the pump and hoses and supposedly this did the trick. You may want to give this a try.

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Please elaborate. Have you done this? I've seen others referencing cleaning the SAI but never a rebuild. I've taken my original one apart and cleaned it a few times, but I think I'd need to replace the bearings to really solve the problem. I'd be interested in seeing a reference for someone that's done it. Shawn

Update: mechanic had it running and thought he heard some noise that indicated a cam issue. They are pulling off cam covers starting with bank 2 today.

I am curious to see the result of the dismantling. Keep me posted. Phil

Here is a good comparative that includes pics. Read the description for the album to see how we "super sleuthed" this one to save this guy a ton of money. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4914693&type=1 Here is a sample.. This wear had NO SYMPTOM at all.

I am glad I have an extended warranty to sleep at night LOL I had sent my oil for analysis to blackpoint or whatever their name was but I never got the report back.. May be I'll try to to it again.

Ok, Jake. After removing the cam cover for bank 2, he indy mechanic describes exactly the situation that you show in your photo, wear of the cam surfaces (?) that extends down through the outer hardened layer. He states that this has occurred in both cams on bank 2. His verdict is that this wear is likely present in bank 1 as well and translates to an engine that is beyond repair. It seems like an expensive repair regardless of whether possible or not. What's your opinion? Could this wear be responsible for the metal fragments in the oil?

Its almost like I have seen this a few dozen times :-0 Once this wear starts it spreads globally across the engine. Check all surfaces. Assume nothing and quantify everything. The engine I have apart now lost rod bearings from the collateral damage extending from this primary failure, but we caught it in time and saved it. It may be well beyond repair at his level, but at ours its just another day at the office.. Right now I consider your situation a best case scenario. This one is a walk in the park.

Btw- the metal in te oil started from the cam/ lifters. Read te story at the link I posted.

Jake, you said the engine suffered the above with NO symptoms? There was no excess VT noise or anything? Can you explain? What caused the camshaft and lifters to fail?

Looks like neglect of oil change. I replaced the bank 2 lifters recently and at 65k they were shiny and new. However, one was stuck in 11mm position causing misfire at idle.

Poor materials and poor boundary layer protection from oils with long service intervals and less than adequate elemental composition. This is not new to us, this is quickly becoming he most common failure that we see. Luckily we have saved every engine to date that has landed here with this issue. The engine that I linked had zero symptoms. Read the story.

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So what does this walk entail? Complete teardown and rebuild? I assume that the repair you suggest will cost upwards of $5K.... What could cause this sort of wear? This car hasn't been tracked, stored or abused in any way. Can this really be a car that originally cost >$100K that only lasts 70K miles? That's a pretty poor ratio of $/miles, especially considering all the cash I've poured in for repairs and preventative maintenance, including the IMSB retrofit done 18 months ago.

Jake, I read the story but was blown away that such a valve train problem exhibited no symptoms. I agree with more frequent oil changes for sure. Funny how some refuse to believe this.

I wonder how much a fix like this costs.... Not even talking about the 'while you are in there' thing that will terribly hitch your wallet

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could you post some pictures of what the indy found ? I would be curious to see how it looks like. When I look at Jake pics, aside of the rod bearing, I can't really see it. I mean I am a newbie and don't know what looks right or not

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The indy took some pics and promised to send them along to me, but warned that they were pretty lousy cell phone pics. I'll post whatever I get when I get it. I'll also add up all the $ I spent and make a list of the things I had fixed during the 2.5 years/27,000 miles I drove it...should make for good reading. As I mentioned, I always had the oil changed at 5K or less miles, with the exception of the last oil change where I went almost 7K. I kept it topped up always and used Mobil 1 as recommended.

Quix, the metallic noise you describe at start up sounds like a starter, unrelated to your issues at hand. I'd love to offer some help but w/the engine already apart at a shop (and without pictures) I don't want to speculate too much. Best of luck and please keep us posted. On the failure analysis posted above (Jake), my educated guess would be that inadequate lubrication was the root cause, possibly due to low oil pressure or infrequent oil changes. In any case, I don't see how you can conclusively claim foreign material damage to the lower end bearings (and would welcome an explanation as I'm genuinely curious). Side note, as noted above the SAI pumps can be rebuilt or replaced inexpensively. I don't think permanent removal makes much sense as it's a rather simple and lightweight system (which to my understanding of the design literature, the DME uses to cross check the readings from the 02 sensors to the MAF values) with no bearing on performance.

There are many contributing factors to this issue. The biggest is somewhat political and would only create controversy if I posted about it. This really is just a repair at this point, not a "rebuild". It does make sense to change a few items while we are inside the engine, especially timing chains. I'd like to see pics of what the Indy found as well.

Classic.

Jake, please explain. I come from the "old school" way of thinking and believe in 3000 miles / 3 month oil changes on performance engines. Learned from Dad when I was a kid complaining about him making us grease HD construction equipment that cost much, much more than these Porsches. His favorite saying was "grease is cheap". It was my Grandfathers company at the time so we didnt understand until much older. I think you would be nuts to go 10K miles or a year between oil changes in a high dollar performance engine. I wouldnt treat a lawn mower engine with such disdain. If Porsche agrees to replace my engine, which is still low mileage, I might consider their recommendation. I for one will not be offended and would like to hear your take on lubricant changes and oil types.

Unfortunately you are one of the few.

An oil thread will derail faster than a three wheeled train. It is always interesting to hear what Jake's research and experience has revealed. I took the smart way out and just had Jake fill my engine with Joe Gibb's DT-40.

Summit has that. Jake, If you deicide to explain, just prepare yourself for the assault from the usual forum goons and dont worry about it. I have taken it many times and found that the internet arrows to the chest dont even hurt.

Ok, high zinc content, I get it.

Nevermind, I found your post about it. Great info and funny. Couldnt agree more!

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I sense some derision, and hope I'm wrong about this, Jake. For those reading who WILL continue to drive and maintain these cars, your opinion about how you feel they should be taken care of would be appreciated. I don't know that I'll be in that group, but we'll see. I'm not interested in an oil thread, you can read these at a dime per dozen on this site, but proper service intervals and other advice would be useful. I've always been respectful to you here and in any conversation I've ever been in about the topic of the 996. So far I'm not understanding what will need to be fixed and/or replaced, other than that it all needs to be torn apart and inspected. Cams at $1000 per (?) X 4 plus labor and other parts for what at most is a $25K car is seeming a little shaky to me, but that's me. The indy also quoted me lifters at $150 a pop X however many of those there are that need to be replaced. Yikes. So I'm no armchair expert, and don't change my own oil. My time is better spent doing my real job, which I'm good at, rather than screwing around with my car. I don't recommend that you take out your own appendix, gallbladder or fix your own hernia, btw. For those who do work on their cars, I admire greatly your know-how, willingness to learn, courage and free time, but let's try and keep this informative and useful for those who might be able to prevent this from happening to their own cars, thanks.

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Good, professional advice is never free. If you really want a diagnosis or opinion from Flat6, then send your car there. Otherwise, listen to your Indy's advice (if you trust him). I can't blame Jake for being coy, but who knows, maybe there will be a Camshaft Actuator Solution in our future!

I won't engage any further, because it will only create issues that have no solution.

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Waste your money if you wish, but its just that...an absolute waste* *if you track the car, the above is void.

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I understand your position and dilemma. Thanks for your advice so far. I'll still try and post any photos I get, just for education's sake. q

I'm guessing Jake is referring to the constant push-pull that occurs between the bean counters and the engineers at Porsche and the compromises that have to be made.

Quad, maybe you should read the info referenced in Excellence Mag that also agrees with me. The real waste would be destroying the 20K engine by stretching the service interval while using the wrong lube. That 20K buys a lot of oil, right?

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I have to say that, from my vantage point, it certainly would make me feel better had I not listened to those espousing changes every 5 or even 10K miles, and had I studied the oil threads for some evidence that one is better than another. I did everything else under the sun to prevent being where I am now with this car. jmho. q

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Jake is a pretty busy guy. I prefer for him to stay busy doing R&D. Why not search posts by Jake & read first before asking him to rehash old info?

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who reads that crap? excellence magazine as a source on oil tech? please.

by me byprodriver posted: Perhaps you should read ALL the posts before you engage your typing fingers.

This has all the makings of "Thread of the Year". And its only January.

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Just needs unicorns and a couple other things...

Meanwhile the OP still has an issue. The damage is done now and he needs a resolution.

Sorry for the derail. To the OP, please keep us posted if you dont mind. We can learn from these engine failures.

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Quix, PM where you are taking your car. I lived in Minneapolis for years and worked in the automotive repair industry as a parts supplier. I may be able to shed some light on your Indy. Then again may be not, but I would be curious to know especially if that person is in Stillwater. Thanks

Did your indy sent you the pics for your cams ? I'd be curious to see the damages related to those metal fragments in your oil filter.

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Despite another call and an assurance that the pics would be on their way I still don't have them. I'll call again if I don't get them tomorrow. No further info for now...car is in my garage and on the DL until I decide what to do with it.

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Never accept quantity as a substitute for quality

You will note that Jake said the only reason the damage was discovered was oil testing. Oil testing has not been discussed in this thread yet, but it should be. Another poster mentioned that construction equipment is way more expensive than a Porsche engine, and most construction equipment owners do oil analysis. This is very true, it is cheap insurance. I send oil samples of every oil change to Blackstone for analysis. So far my numbers have been good. It's not the end all, but it's inexpensive and provides information otherwise not discoverable by a car owner.

Update: dropped off my 996 at a dealer today. They'll have a look and make an offer for trade-in value. They know of the metal fragments and implications to the extent that anyone can. Sad, but moving on to the next phase. More info to come once deal is inked.

In the meantime, here is some good entertainment. I've totalled up all the $$ I spent on this car, not including purchase/PPI and shipping. Total is $12,003.69 and includes winter wheels and tires, probably not necessary in retrospect. Original purchase was in 3/2010 for $32,500 (C4 Cab, Arctic Silver, all leather, CD changer/Bose and cassette, hard top, 42K miles). Date Amount Service 5/26/10 $146.14 Oil change and inspection 10/28/10 $1837.73 Winter wheels and tires (SportEdition Cup4/Pirelli SnowSports) 12/2/10 $29.32 Wiper blades 12/10/10 $476.25 Replace body trim parts, headlight reinstall due to blinker issue 4/5/11 $1341.98 2nd gear d�tente, tires x 4 (Michelin Pilot Sport AS) 4/5/11 $2198.38 IMS Retrofit, Trans flex disc replace with BMW 318ti, oil change 7/26/11 $1225.19 Rotors and brake pads all around 9/27/11 $163.13 Oil change 4/2/12 $30.00 Rear engine lid shock replacement, DIY 5/3/12 $2455.19 60,000 mile service, replace front sway bars, ignition coils 9/5/12 $974.89 Repair cab top mechanism, clean radiators 10/8/12 $126.00 Diagnose Secondary Air Pump Noise (nothing done) 1/7/13 $417.45 Oil change, transmission fluid change (metal fragments) 1/14/13 $582.04 Remove and replace bank 2 cam cover (Peek n shriek) Trade-in value......pending.

Quix, sorry to hear youve given up on your C4. You detailed the money spent but a HUGE amount of that is labor. You could have done all the work yourself and saved a lot. These cars are costly to maintain if you dont DIY. In fact thats the only way I even bother owning one. If I had to bring it to the dealer for everything I would stay pretty upset with Porsche and their "Porsche Tax" on everything. Thats why I say the 996 is not a DD. Buy and use it as a hobby. If you need to repair it, DIY and take your time since it doesnt matter if its down for days, weeks, or longer. Its not your DD! Could you post what the dealer offers?

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This cannot be said enough; these cars are not really for people w/o DIY skills or warranty.

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if you are anything you are consistent. dont really see where he has indicated that the cost was a factor in all this.

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Lesson learned. It's really been more of a time thing. With two kids and a perfect wife, travelling baseball, swim meets, school events, lots of family stuff, a job that has me at the hospital 60-80 hours per week and overnight 4x/month, and a road cycling habit that takes me around 3500-4000 miles/year, I've always opted to pay someone to work on the car. The calculation is that I'll do better financially going to work. Barring catastrophic failure, of course. As a trauma surgeon, I'm not too bad at fixing stuff, it's just that car repair skills are not ones I've developed. All in all I've really enjoyed owning the car. As quoted by the guy I bought it from, "You don't drive a Porsche, you wear it." He's right, the car is iconic and when you have one everyone defines you as the guy with a Porsche, whether you want that or not. I haven't minded paying the tax, until this last episode where the tax liability became unclear and possibly very high. Again, further details to come.

It will be an interesting outcome to see what the dealer has to say. The value should not be very different considering they will for sure sell it to auction and they don't have to disclose anything about it. I would be really surprise that they decide to fix it to resell it themselves. Looking forward to hear what will happen. About the DIY thing, I'd say that I do a ton myself, but when it comes to big engine stuff, everybody is at the same level or almost. None of us can spare the time to open their engine and rebuild it, and even if you do, it will still cost you $10k in parts to rebuild it correctly without counting your time involvement which is considerable.

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Sounds like you are batting about .950% which ain't bad! Now just choose between 997.2 or 991 C4 & stop keeping expense records!

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Well, I did rebuild my engine. Cost was 3k usd, not too bad? I spend my day's in the office with computer, but still found the time to do the work... So there is some of us that can and will do the big engine stuff. For the op's case, I say that the total catastrophy wasn't close. People here just jumps to conclusions way too easy.

Pics of the cam covers off?

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There's nothing wrong with choosing not to DIY, everyone likes different things to spend their time on (I find it relaxing to work with my hands for change). With that in mind, though, you should absolutely have opted for warranty; you will hardly ever come out ahead paying out of pocket for maintenance of a high end car.

You posted you are a trauma surgeon? Nevermind, when Obama gets through with you, I think you might be able to afford a used Yugo. (joke disclaimer)

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The pics were quite blurry. Let me know if you can make anything of them:

ouch that is super blurry.. any better shots ? your indy need to learn about the 'macro' function ...

Doesn't look like they even took cams out to inspect the lifters?

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Nice work!!! I refreshed the top end, installed 6 new exhaust valves and a good used clutch set for $2000. Also replaced the RMS, AOS and the IMS bearing (hybrid but not from LN). Probably too 100hrs but it was all done 1 hour at a time in the evenings. One bolt at a time and sooner or later the project will be done. The key is to keep going, even if the pace is slow.

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Thanks This proof's that it's not allways 10k to get the car going again. I have put 16k km's to my rebuilded engine, and still counting sorry about off topic...

The Audi dealer gave me $21K for a trade. He wouldn't go any higher, stating that he was going to have to wholesale it. He had brought it up to the Porsche dealer (where the original finding of metal fragments was made) who felt that this was the best that they could offer given the unknowns about the motor. Would any of you have offered any more? I doubt it but let's hear it. The various estimates for repair were as low as $3K and as high as $12K, and were from the dealer, a reliable indy and a well-known expert. I'm sure that some here will look down on me for not digging in and fixing it myself, but I really don't have the time or the desire, frankly. The car had been a sore point between me and my wife for some time, and she put up with it because she knew I loved it. When it became a possible liability, the discussion was not to drag it out but to dish it off. We have a new driver in the family and need garage space, and my trade of two cars for one new one opens up a slot. Tomorrow I'll pick up a beautiful black on black leather 2013 Audi S4, 333hp, 7 speed "S-tronic" transmission with all the toys. It's fast and sexy and has back seats, but as you all know it's not a Porsche 911. I'm fairly sure that I'll own another 911 someday, when kids are out of the house and college is paid for. I've really enjoyed the RL 996 community and all its quirky characters, oil threads, !/\/\$ threads, JR debates and talented DIYers. I'll continue to monitor for a while, and then will be back when the time comes. Thanks all. Caveat emptor: VIN WP0CA299X2S651523

So the dealer will fix it for less than $3k, their price, and take full advantage of all the work and new tires, etc you put in to it, and then resell it for $32k. Nice tidy profit. Wish I had the time and cash to fool with that, I would have done the same thing. Maybe soemone here will make a counter. I fully understand your position, though. Have fun with the S4.

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All offers entertained! PM me if you're serious. If it's that easy the offers should be rolling in!

Quotes source post: 10183479

Sounds like you survived this better than most, congratulations! Now you can get back to focusing on your work.

Quotes source post: 10183479

You're doing the best thing IMHO. That is a good deal from the dealer considering the unknowns. Considering you are a surgeon and time is more valuable than money, not to mention you don't need to be getting any divorce from a material item like a car, I'd say you did the best thing. The S4 I think will suit you far better considering your circumstance with your family and parking situation. I'd take it and run frankly. When the kids get out of school, you can then reward yourself with a nice 991 or 99X.

I agree, $32k is (unrealistically) optimistic. I think $21k is pretty fair for a car that needs major work.

You may come out great on this deal. Congrats!

I think think the dealer will fix a perfectly running '02 C4 cab in Minnesota, and then have less than $24k in it and ask $32k. Remember, his car runs fine! No bad carfax or anything, and needs minor work, for the dealer. Even if they settle for $28k they come out WAY ahead.

Wow $21 is a great trade in, considering the circumstances and the obvious risk of big ticket repair. I would most certainly take that money and run.

My PM box is still empty. In the end the dealer gave me the $21K for trade then handed my 996 off to a wholesaler. I have no idea where it will end up. Maybe we'll hear about it someday on RL. It has a telltale mark left over from the first owner: someone threw an egg a the left rear, just over the wheel. If you've ever seen this before, an egg will leave a characteristic set of chips in the paint of a car. Otherwise it's just got the usual minor set of scuffs for an 11 year-old car. Sad to see it go. Loving the new S4...