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THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHHello and need much Advice on, New to Porsche with a 2003 4CS with IMS failure.
Leading reported evidence
Lubricate components
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Even though the car was shut down promptly, it still featured a full IMS Bearing failure with all 4 stages and had plenty of time for internally lubricated components to be compromised by a filter bypass condition.
Hello and need much Advice on, New to Porsche with a 2003 4CS with IMS failure.
Read full discussion summary
Leading evidence: 'Lubricate components' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'due' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Clean bucket and have a really good look at it' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Last summer when I was looking, used emgines were well over $6000.
Hello and need much Advice on, New to Porsche with a 2003 4CS with IMS failure.
Use motor is like ~6k
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Hello and need much Advice on, New to Porsche with a 2003 4CS with IMS failure.
due
Suggestion or failed attempt
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Identified cause
1
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that suspect a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suspected cause · Original poster
Problem is due to prior commitments the build probably won't start for about 3 weeks.
Hello and need much Advice on, New to Porsche with a 2003 4CS with IMS failure.
Outcome qualification: Negation, uncertainty or missing explicit repair resolution overrides the raw extraction signal.
Clean bucket and have a really good look at it
Suggestion or failed attempt
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
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Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
If the oil is sitll in the engine, drain it in a very clean bucket and have a really good look at it.
Hello and need much Advice on, New to Porsche with a 2003 4CS with IMS failure.
Lubricate components
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Even though the car was shut down promptly, it still featured a full IMS Bearing failure with all 4 stages and had plenty of time for internally lubricated components to be compromised by a filter bypass condition.
Hello and need much Advice on, New to Porsche with a 2003 4CS with IMS failure.
Test horribly and you don't want
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
Upon teardown measure cylinders #2 and #5 for ovality and taper; if it is like most, it will fail this test horribly and you don't want to find this out later during the build process.
Hello and need much Advice on, New to Porsche with a 2003 4CS with IMS failure.
Outcome qualification: Negation, uncertainty or missing explicit repair resolution overrides the raw extraction signal.
Coverage and how to read this overview
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
37 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 1 adjusted by outcome qualification.
2 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Yep. I'm now the owner of a MINT condition, 2003 996, 4CS, with a IMS failure. This car is immaculant, one owner 70,000mi. ($7500). I'm a 50yr old, Aircraft/Auto mechanic that has rebuilt almost everythig but a german motor. I've got most all tools except for any Porsche special. I'm gonna need lots of free help and Advice, LOL.
First the IMS failure, the previous owner knew about IMS issue and had an appointment for the fix so when he was cruising at 45mph and it blew, he did not try a restart and had it towed to a local dealer. Dealer removed transmission and told him he needed a complete engine. He was so P.O.ed, he told them to put it back together and then sold it to me. My plan is to remove Transmission and evaluate and possiable rebuild engine depending on if it bent valves or cracked case. What are the chances that this motor CAN be saved? I'm really looking forward to dissassembling this even if it can't be rebuilt.
ANY ideas would be much appreciated
Welcome! Look up my thread on the Canadian forum called Dragged me home one of these. Like you, I also bouht a non runner 996 in July. Took it apart and fixed it. There are lots of detaila on how th repair went. Have a look, it will help get an idea what it takes to pull the heads. You might get lucky and the engine will be fixable. Step one, pull the oil pan (sump plate) and have a peak. If the oil is sitll in the engine, drain it in a very clean bucket and have a really good look at it. Do this with the filter too. Post your jurney here so others in the future can use it. If you have any queations just ask away. AND GOOD LUCK.
I didn't use any books.
Got enough info from the net for the unique stuff and the rest is pretty straight forward. However, the Porsche Work Shop Manual should have everything in it.
I can't wait to see your journey into rebuild, that should be fun to watch, hopefully your engine is actually not too bad.
Definitely post pics of your oil pan content and oil filter.
Exactly what I'm Hopin, But what I believe will be almost as fun as driving will be the Rebuild and even if I do end up buying a complete motor, It's gonna be FUN. And their will be LOTS of pictures to come. Problem is due to prior commitments the build probably won't start for about 3 weeks.
Question, During an IMS failure what shuts down the motor? No oil pressure safety of some sort or valve timing? If it's valve timing, I'm thinkin Motor's toast.
Last summer when I was looking, used emgines were well over $6000. If you know what you are doing amd the engine is repairable (cylinders cracked and jo hole in the block), a lot of work can be done (only if you are a DIY-er) for much less than $6000. AND at the end you know exactly what you have.
on a post you wrote - "I will remove the oil pan"
if you know the motor is shot dont mess around with this - it will just make motor removal a PITA and a mess
step 1, get the motor on the bench
step 2 rebuild
step 3 put motor in car
step 4 drive the wheels off that car knowing you can rebuild it if it ever dies again!
This is going to be a great thread
Congrats on the purchase, I can't wait to see the progress. If your ever looking for a part free free to PM me with any questions or concerns.
Well, if the driver is aware of the situation, realizes the seriousness of the situation, the driver should shut down the engine. There have been 996 engines that have survived an IMS failure and been rebuilt (I came across one back several years (or more) ago) -- not requiring much in the way of parts either -- by a driver acting wisely and promptly.
In the case of the engine I spotted at a dealer it required a new IMS and IMSB and IMSB end plate, and at least one cam chain guide rail but except for the hardware that gets replaced no matter why the engine is torn down and reassembled nothing else.
Otherwise, while the engine may continue to run it will go from very sick but probably curable (fixable) to dead and scrap and not even useful for a core exchange in sometimes just seconds.
If the engine shuts down on its own it depends upon how it stops. If it just stops, valve piston contact probably occurred and the engine is very likely toast.
More than likely you will have at a minimum.
Valve train damage. It's an interference engine and the IMS runs the timing.
You'll most likely have am damaged IMS tube. When the bearing fails
the tube starts wobbling and causes damage to the tube and
the shoulder socket it sits in which happens to be the oil pump
on the far side of the engine.
When the bearings let go -- they grind themselves into fine pieces
which sends debris in your engine which may or may not get caught
in your filter.
If you don't care to deal with trying to save this particular engine if possible,
I sent you a PM.
Mike
A local customer of ours has one of my 3.8 big bore engines, based from a 3.6 from 2003 for sale. It has never been installed and was built last year. His cost was 22K, I think he wants 17.5K for it.
Thats one choice.
I have had customers lose IMS Bearings while on my schedule for a retrofit as well. The instance was always "Its spring and I want to drive my car".
As with any IMS Bearing failure, the loss of the IMS Bearing may be the primary damage, but it is far from the damage that causes the mass hysteria that cost the most inside the engine. Remember that damages that extend from the loss of an IMS Bearing failure are always creates in regard to foreign object debris. The bearing will begin to shed ferromagnetic wear debris at stage 2 of the 4 stage failure and generally this debris clogs the oil filter and pops the factory bypass well into stage 3 of the failure. When the bypass opens material laden oil is fed to the main and rod bearings and the situation just got terminal. Even though the car was shut down promptly, it still featured a full IMS Bearing failure with all 4 stages and had plenty of time for internally lubricated components to be compromised by a filter bypass condition.
Collateral and secondary damages are what renders most of the engines worthless to repair without a full reconstruction. Please do not even attempt to reuse the IMS assembly/ tube as it has seen way too much trauma.
Upon teardown measure cylinders #2 and #5 for ovality and taper; if it is like most, it will fail this test horribly and you don't want to find this out later during the build process. The cylinders can visually look perfect, but measure horribly. Assume nothing and quantify everything. You might want to attend one of my classes or the "M96 101" engine rebuild school.
Just because the dealer said its the IMS bearing, doesn't mean they were right. Best nkt to assume anything and start a systematic dignosys system. As I said before, drain the oil, have a good look at it, same thing with the filter, removing the "oil pan" only takes a few minutes and have a look at that too. It can be re installed in a few mimutes to keep the engine sealed during removal. I like to know how things are as soon as I can and that's what I did when I started my 996 project.
Want to thank Everyone for their inputs. I'm hopin to at least remove the oil pan this weekend. The dealer handed the previous owner what was left of the stud and nut that holds the shaft in. I'm thinkin it's probably toast, but I'm still gonna enjoy tearing this motor down anyway, then I'll post many pictures and weigh my options. Curious about what other years Porsche motors would fit without alot of trouble?
That is a pretty good smoking gun :-)
I had one where I put the car on the lift -- looked up and could see the IMS
bolt face down between the bellhousing and engine. That was an easy diagnosis.
Once we disassembled -- the internal carnage was -- ummmm bad :-(
Mike
JR, thats awesome. Great pic. When are you selling the stroker kits?
To the OP: +1 on the salvage engines. You can buy a whole salvage car much cheaper, pull and rebuild engine if you want to.
Or, buy JR's 3.8 for the best solution. 17K's a steal.
Please POST pics of the carnage!
So I posted a Thread asking if there was a thread calling all IMS failures and, if NOT, let’s start one that keeps a record of year, model and mileage and known driving conditions of these failures. You’d thought I’d slapped your mama or something. It was closed by a moderator almost immediately. He claims he was asked by fellow members to stop the IMS failure conversations cause it leads to too many arguments about the validity and cause of this problem. That members where tired of reading about it. REALLY! You people just can’t, NOT click on those threads. Anyway ,Enough about THAT. I’ve been a mechanic my whole life, USAF Aircraft, B52, KC135, A10, I’ve also rebuilt just about every American made motor out there. I just started riding and working on Harleys (2011 FatBoy Lo} about 2yrs ago, so believe me, I know about Brand loyalty on Forums, but at least they’ll talk about it and try to defend.
I’ve only been interested in Porsche for about 2 weeks now and have been reading and studying the flat 6 since. What I’ve found so far is a severely flawed design in the IMS shaft that any engineer should have Identified and fixed many years ago. Who in their right mind would have installed an ISOLATED, sealed, ROLLER bearing in the middle of an engine crankcase? Maybe because people where too proud to openly talk about it in fear of damaging the Porsche reputation, I just DON’T get it.
Anyway, here is my plan for a mint condition 2003 C4S 64,459mi great handling, fun to drive, IMS FAILURE, car. A Renegade, LS3 or LS7 install for the simple reason that Porsche screwed up the design on THIS engine and a LS, 430hp minimum engine, with the handling of this car is going to be phenomenal. The reliability of a LS compared to the maintenance cost and time bomb feeling on a 996 is enough to convince me that this is the right choice. Now Question IS, do I continue to POST on this forum or should I move on, since I’m planning on documenting every step of this build, including the teardown of the 996 motor.
Let Me know how YOU feel
MSgt Michael Thompson USAF
Keep going! The motor is dead, potentially fatal, so pull it down and lets see what you have got. There are a few builds published on the the LS transplant, but until you get that motor apart and inspected, you don't know where your engine site on the scale. Have fun and I for one are very interested in what you find.
Looks like the moderator merged a couple of your threads into this one.
Here is an LS3 swap thread:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...onversion.html
nice buy ! I think you can get a rebuilt engine for about $8 - $12 K depending on where you are. that's what I'd do. If you can't afford it then I'd still do it and sell the car, you'd make money for sure. There is a lot of good advice here on the board, though almost everyone thinks they are a certified Porsche mechanic so be sure to consult with a real good independent mechanic who might give you some advise locally. I mean I know you want to do it yourself but a good indy will likely steer you at least to some legit resources. Have fun with the project !!
First let me apologize for offending people, was NOT my intent. After posting on so many different boards this was the first time I’ve ever had SOMEONE close one of my posts for reasons I’m still not understanding. Done deal, I’ll get over it.
What upset me was I didn’t feel I had the time (wanting to start this build) to surf around the web to find the best Porsche site and this one came highly recommended. My original purpose was to try and find IMS tracking info to get a better understanding of where I was with this motor compared to others and maybe get some info on whether the original owner had any recourse with Porsche and to start a rebuild thread. The red flag went up when I had a post closed then I heard about people that thought their board was overcrowded with the same old info, then I worried if an LS swap would just get way too many flames.
SO, if I didn’t already make too many enemies I’d like to ask for your help and advice and constructive comments and I know a little flaming on swapping out my 996 for a LS3 or 7 motor.
