Dyno results / Ebay headers

Just got back from having car dyno'ed. You guys were right as far as these or any other headers in my mind being better than stock ones. Results pre header dyno 247 hp. 216.5 tq. vs. 234hp. 202.5 tq. Anyone interested got a set for sale $100 obo. JW

Thanks for sharing this jw996! That's a valuable and honest post. I guess you'd have better sold them before announcing the dyno result!

SELL! SELL! SELL! thanks for the info....... too bad.... i only wish we can mod for cheap.......

Don't respond to $100 headers on ebay. jw

Just curious - if you hadn't done a real dyno, what would the butt dyno have said? Can you tell feel the power loss? Many people add headers, CAI's, etc and think the car feels faster.

even though if the number is lower..... do you feel a pick up on the upper rpm? does it open up?

I am going to put on the stock headers tomorrow hopefully and I can give you more of a butt dyno feel. With my car being a tip the tq band probably shifted up the range. I'll let you know. JW

jw996: I've really got to commend you for posting those results...even though they didn't do you much good insofar as unloading the headers goes. It's folks like yourself who add value and integrity to this forum...and you certainly help the rest of us when we're trying to decide whether to try to save a few bucks and go the cheaper route. You've helped confirm that there's really no cheap way to add horsepower...and that a lot of these snake oil products are just that. Chuck

+1 Good on ya for sharing. If the result were more push at higher RPMs it would show up as higher peak hp (with possibly lower peak torque). Given that the peak power is lower I'm very doubtful that it's stronger at the top end.

To be honest I don't think any of the headers will out perform the stocks substantially and when you consider the $ they probably aren't worth it but look good. Intakes and mufflers probably fall into same catogory but they do sound like your getting more power. I did flash and gained 8.5 lbs. tq & 10 hp. JMHO. JW

Now go and get yourself one of those RSS/IPD plenums...................

I think it would be pretty difficult to out do Porsche as far as designing and manufacturing a header that would deliver more performance on a stock motor. I'm certain they spent a lot of time and tested different designs before putting the car in production. Their budget far exceeds any aftermarket header manufacturer. If the Porsche was not a performance car this may not be the case.

I haven't seen headers increase HP in many vehicles since the mid 90's.

The same header might yield a gain on a stock 997S. The header on the 3.8L engines look more restrictive than what was on the 3.6 motors. Another possibility is that the header alone without freeing up the system downstream winds up being less effective than what you started with.

Should I say....I told you so. How can a header with smaller primary tubes than and restictive flanges make more HP? I want to thank you for being honest with the results. I am very surprised that they lose 13 hp. Based off that, the flanges are probably off creating more restriction. Following Washington's comment: The only headers I have seen since the 90's make big gains are the new Z06 long-tube headers which can increase power 40+hp. In general, most cars today have much better exhaust manifold designs and much higher output/L than cars in the 90's. Back in the early 90's you could get 16 hp from a good set of equal length shorty headers on a Mustang. Today, a good set of equal length shorter headers for a Mustang increase 3 hp.

Can it be that the hp loss would have changed when (a) driving some time with the new headers as the ECU would have adapted to the new exhaust flow or (b) with a ECU flash that would consider the design of the new headers. What I'm still trying to find out is what effect the exhaust backpressure issue has on the performance as the ECU is programmed to support a specific (stock) set-up.

JW, sorry about your disappointing results. I'm sure I will get flamed over this; however, I think you just proved that you get what you pay for. I may be ignorant, but the only thing that I really care about when considering the benefit of a performance modification is does it make my car go faster both on the street and the track The improved sound is an added bonus. You did a great job (by doing a before & after dyno run) of showing that the cheap headers are a waste of money. I would not give up on the idea altogether. I bought a quality set of headers, Billy Boat, and put them side by side next to the stock header. The difference in quality is obvious. Look at this months issue of Excellence. There are several companies that build or sell what appear to be (I have not seen all of them in person) quality headers including Tubi, Fabspeed, Supersprint, Billy Boat, Remus, Evolution Motorsports, Cross, etc. We all know that Evolution Motorsport's Vortech supercharger system adds horsepower consistent with what they claim. I don't understand why we don't believe their claims regarding their other products (cold air induction, exhaust system, GIAC chip). I have dealt with several companies while rebuilding my 996 that went way above and beyond in helping me. Evolution Motorsports and The Racers Group were just two of those companies. I wouldn't hesitate to call The Racer's Group and ask them what headers they recommend & what kind of improvement you should expect. I don't think too many people will argue that RUF and 9ff have been able to seriously improve the Porsches that they have worked their magic on. In the February 2005 issue of Excellence there is an article titled "Jet Blue: an early 996 reveals it's truecolors" It is their interpretation of a 996 Club Sport. They take a 3.4 996 put it on a diet and added some more power. They increased power to 337bhp and 269.4 ft/lb of torque. They claim a 0-60 time of 4.7 seconds and a top speed of 185 mph. This article provides an excellent blueprint for improving the performance of our cars. The engine modifications included a larger volume aluminum intake manifold, high lift camshafts & stronger valve springs, gas flowed & shaved cylinder heads, headers using larger diameter equal-length pipes, modified mufflers with larger pipes, recalibrated ECU, and a GT3 Cup intake & BMC air cleaner....We can get more power out of our cars, it just comes at a price.

Mfletch, you are right to a point. Do you think that it costs anymore to make a good set of headers for a 911 over a Mustang? The only factor here is volume. The design time and materials are the same. There is no questionable doubt that make of our parts are artifiically inflated. Other parts like B&M shifters for our cars are in the same price range as other lower makes. If you talk to Ruf about intakes, headers and exhausts; they will tell you they are all worthless. They haven't seen major gains from header s or intakes and no gains from Porsche's PSE. Keep in mind that these comments are based on the parts they tested, mostly sourced from Germany. They haven't tested an EVO or a K&N intake. They haven't tested a Fabspeed or a Tubi exhaust. That doesn't mean you can't make gains. I made 22 rwhp with a pair of used Fabspeed mufflers and a K&N intake. There may be headers out there that make decent gains, but you have to put them on your car and dyno test them to find out for sure. This is why this was a really good thread. It is a real world result, not the typical opinions without a basis of fact.

I would love to see a before and after dyno with just a set of quality headers. I know my mechanic, who I trust a great deal swears by the fabspeed units, and is so confident about the benefits he offers rides in his customers' cars before purchase so that the potential buyer can determine whether it is worthwhile.

I read that same article, and I like the 9ff. It is interesting though, that several mags have tested the c2 - totally stock - at 4.6secs to 60. They did a lot of expensive modifications to that car in order to squeeze out the performance, and I think it's obvious that you just can't bolt on some headers and really expect much to happen. Headers will allow slightly more power in the higher rpm ranges, and they will shift the torque band higher. O.k., that's fine if you are at the drag strip- but 99.9999% of the time that I'm not actually in the act of racing someone, especially on a 3.4ltr car, I want that torque in the lower rpm range for driveability.

02 Carrera, I couldn't agree more about the cost of Mustang vs Porsche headers. I actually had a set of inexpensive headers on my Saleen (MAC unequal length shortys...less then $200) that made a ton of power. El Torrente, I think those of us with the tip (especially those of us with a lead right foot) are able to get more frequent use of the higher rpm range because in the auto mode it will kick down to the lowest gear possible.

If anyone is interested in my headers to see how they perform on their car, I'll take $100 + shp. PM me. I know you guys are going to be fighting over them. They looook real preddy. JW

preddy is all that matters jw...... i'll take 20......gl with the ebay sale...... word of advice, don't post the dyno....

Here is the definative statement. Headers work better than manifolds because the seperate exhaust streams are kept seperated longer........letting the energy disapate before the streams are jammed together creating turbulence and back pressure. This is why long headers work better than shorties......which is the problem in a rear engine, rear exhaust car.....there just isn't enough room.

Big gains are made on headers that enter the collector in the firing order. They are big and ugly, not used commonly as there is a bunch of plumbing piping crossing from one side of the engine to the other, but they really work well. Probablly a best case performance wise but not real practicle.

Hi Jw, I'll take your header. Thanks.

Hold the pressess, I was at the shop switching out the headers and when the first one was un bolted and dropped down the gasket was put on wrong blocking 35-40% of the out flow, from the head. Put gasket on correctly and drove short distance. Seems that it initially runs better, seat of pants dyno. With the brain fart corrected, I will get a better read and might dyno again out of curiosity. Makes since why I would of lost so much power considering that one engine bank was restricted 35-40% at least,that would of really sent mixed signals to ecu. I know you guys are choppen at the bit to buy my pipes but you will have to wait on ecu and dyno run for real #'s. Keep you posted. JW

That is one hell of a loss for a header... What were the conditions of both dynos

Temperatures were probably 10 degree difference. If you saw how much of the chamber was blocked by metal gasket you would assume that was what caused such a great loss. The ecu was also probably effected also. I will let you know next week after new dyno run. JW

good on you jw...you've done the rennlist community a great service and we appreciate your input. patiently waiting the new results. cheers!

Sooo, can we see the dyno graph?

I'll see if I can scan them or have the shop email them. JW

Just a suggestion, but to answer some other questions, perhaps you could reset your ecu and drive around for a week before you redyno...then there won't be any question about the impact of the ECU "relearning" the mod. Thanks for sharing the initial info... S.

That's what I plan to do. JW

I cannot believe that is all the power these cars put down. Porsche needs to really get on the ball here.

ecu reset... then we'll seee.........

Compared to what with the same displacement. About 250 rwhp on a dynojet is right for a stock 3.4l. The new Cayman S dynos the same, which is also in the same range as what a stock 305 hp 96-97' Mustang Cobra dynos. A 3.6l is about 20 rwhp higher, which is coincidentally the same as what a stock 333 hp E46 M3 dynos. My previous 3.5l G35 Coupe put down 233 rwhp stock (280 rated), while my 3.6l Carrera put down 270 rwhp stock (320 rated). There is absolutely nothing unusual here as the number represent the correct drivetrain losses. If you want to see higher numbers, look at what 997 GT3's are dynoing: 370+ rwhp. That is higher than what C5 Z06 or C6 Corvettes put down wtih much larger 5.7-6.0l engines. Do you realize if the 7.0L C6 Z06 could match the output per liter of the new GT3, it would put out over 800 hp and a Viper over 950 hp?

man..... time to get the GT3.........

I was just suprised at how low the stock power numbers are, regardless of cubes. It is a Porsche, they are $100,000! You cannot compare a Turbo'd motor, that is forced induction and will always make more power. Typically a turbo car will make 25-30 more hp per lb of boost. If a corvette had a turbo, they would have over 650 rwhp at only 10 psi or less. Sounds like the TT's are where its at if trying to make any good HP. To bad they carry a value of $30-40k more then an N/A Porsche. Bummer!

It bums you out when you read the brochure #'s and then find out true rwhp. 18% loss I guess isn't to bad. I heard up to 25% difference from crank to rwhp ratings. FWIW. Update, I'll will try for new dyno run next week. JW

Nitrorocket, your Chevelle has insane horsepower. You obviously know the benefits of forced induction. My last muscle car got 420 hp out of 331 cubic inches or about 5.4 litres. With a few modifications, 9ff got 337 hp out of a 3.4 litre Porsche engine. That's just shy of 100 bhp per litre from a naturally aspirated engine...that's impressive. I spent $10,000 to get 420 hp out of 5.4 litres. To match the Porsche, I would have had to get 540 hp out of my naturally aspirated Ford engine. The current Z06 vette does the 1/4 mile in 11.8 seconds, while the GT3 does it in 12.0 seconds. The Vette has 428 cu. in. while the Porsche only has 220 cu.in. Our beloved Porsches have incredible traction and use their horsepower very efficiently. I'm sure you're going to miss the brute power of your Chevelle when you make the change....but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how well the Porsche's perform in spite of what appear to be low stock horsepower numbers. A close friend bought my 420 hp Saleen. We go on drives together. We are both surprised at how well the Porsche keeps up in spite of the huge power difference. All the horsepower in the world is worthless without traction. Good luck with the sale of your Chevelle. Sincerely, A reformed muscle car junkie.

FWIW, I spoke to the guys at Ruf in Germany (Alexandre in particular) about headers when I was in the market to buy an exhaust muffler. He expressed to me that they simply could not build a header that significantly improved upon the Porsche's design. Moreover, he told me that their Ruf exhaust muffler (which on their Europe site claims to add about 5bhp while no such claim is made on the US site) is predominantly to improve the sound of the exhaust and to provide that customary/traditional Ruf exhaust sound. So basically, we've got Porsche and their favorite tuner stating that they just don't see that much of an improvement by changing exhausts (if any), and nothing at all from different/equal length headers. It really got me flummoxed because headers always nmade such a difference on motorcycles that I'd anticipated the same on my car. Guess not. So, if you're really looking to go faster, get a new suspension.

Nycebo, You will get the same info at Rufautocentre. Keep in mind this is only based on the parts they have tested. Ruf told me intakes are worthless and buy a pair mufflers for sound, never the less I gained 22 rwhp on the dyno from a K&N and a pair of Fabspeed mufflers.

Any update on your dyno with those ebay headers?

Peak horsepower is a marketing number. It has very little to do with how a car performs and even less to how it feels, other than at very high speeds. Measured performance is what counts, and on that score any recent 911 will embarrass a lot of "higher powered" cars. Most of the time, bragging about horsepower is the equivalent of putting a cucumber in your pants.

Sorry, it AIN'T definitive. It ain't correct. In fact, it ain't even close. You should find the person that told you that and beat him up.

Find the guy who sold you on this one too. He also needs beating up. What does it mean about "enter the collector in the firing order?" All engines do this. That's why it's called a "firing order".

I'll go with my 17 years of experience as a Mechanical Engineer, rather than whatever dubious opinion you have

I'll see your 17 years of mechanical engineering and raise you another 8 years. What's your field? I've been in race engine engineering, camshaft design, valvetrain eng'g and metallurgy for 25 years. You obviously are not in the automotive end of engineering to make a statement like you did. Since you graduated, "jammed together" has been replaced by wave dynamics. It's nothing to do with "kept seperated longer".

A high performance header is manufactured with a runner length calculated to maximize performance at a certain RPM. Usually short runners are for high RPM power and long for lots of low end torque. Length is calculated from exhaust valve to a point in the collector. Some systems pair cylinders together that fire 180 degrees apart and will have multiple collectors depending upon desired results. The collector will increase velocity of the exhaust gas and create a low pressure area in the runner of the valve that is about to open helping to pull or scavenge the exhaust for that cylinder. Some headers will have a small restrictor or cone at the inlet which will help break up reversion sound waves and increase exiting gas velocity. These aid in lower and mid-range performance and help with cylinder fill. Some headers use a canister before the collector that will fill during low rpm use and get bypassed during high, some have mechanical valves that will alter flow depending upon RPM. These designs work over a broader RPM range but are expensive to design and manufacture. All headers should work to a degree if designed by someone who understands the basics of removing spent gases from an internal combustion engine. Different designs will yield different power characteristics. It should have been pretty easy for Porsche to design a header for the 996 that would enhance the power of the motor for street use and concentrate power gains lower in the power band . If racing and power output would want to be maximized a little higher up in the RPM range, then the runner length and collector design would probably be changed. Oh...no degree, just perma-grease under my fingernails, lol

Thanks Nick. Are ya reading, Mr. 17 year experienced Mechanical Engineer?

I work in the heavy equipment industry, with Cat and Waukesha engines, and we deal with issues like these every day because engine performance can lose customers tens of thousand dollars per day. These are million dollar pieces of equipment. This isn't trying to hop up a Subaru or what ever the hell you do in "racing" You made a stupid statement that advocates beating someone up which added NOTHING to the thread, same thing with your recent post....you have added ZERO, and are just insulting those with far more knowledge and class than yourself. Good job Mr. 50 post wonder

"Beating someone up" was a joke. Unless you're talking about beating up your old professors because whatever diesels they taught you to work on, you DON'T KNOW how an exhaust system works. Maybe you should listen to one of the seat-of-the-pants racers to whom you condescend. Playing you "E" card was obviously an attempt in proving superior knowledge, as was your "hop up a Subaru or what ever the hell you do in "racing". If it helps validate my position to you, I am not a shadetree hotrodder, 25 years as chief angineer and metallurgist for an aftermarket race engine parts manufacturer. Much of my research has been in wave dynamics, a necessary part of the performance equation. This is the branch of physics that governs performance exhaust systems. I'm afraid that what you practise in your "million dollar" engines has no practical value here, given the operating range of those "million dollar" engines. We're not hotrodding cranes, they're sportscars. I apologize for saying to beat up your old professors, you should ask them to beat you up. And.... before you pull the "E" card again, you should KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. One way to start would be to read what Nick49 posted. This is accurate and verifiable. Your explanation IS NOT. Here's a free education for you that they obviously thought would have been over your head when training you for deisel engineering. You long primaries work with your combination because it takes a long time for a positive wave to travel down the header and then the subsequent negative wave to travel back up and scavenge the cylinder. It's nothing to do with delaying the merging of pressures that create backpressure. There is no backpressure. There are negative pressure waves (vaccuum waves). That was the statement of yours that kind of gave away that you had no clue. You know, it's alright to ocassionally say "I don't know" or just don't post at all.

I wish people would pay more attention to posts like this. SO MANY mods, if they do anything at all, don't find "more power". They just change where it occurs, often at the expense of what you can actually feel. Breathing mods, at either end of the motor, often add power at high rpms, at the expense of grunt at low rpms. You get more bragging rights, but a less lively feeling car. Fine if that's your choice. But every time I see someone popping off about how they found power that Porsche didn't know was there, I strike them off my list of credible sources.

Did another dyno run after gasket was correctly installed. The results was still not what stock headers produced. Lost 11 lbs. tq. & 13 hp. After reinstalling stock headers seat of pants dyno seemed to give back low end tq. and power. Seems like if Porsche could of designed a more efficient header they probably would have. Cost would have not been much difference because you still have to weld 3 pipes into a collector. JMHO. Also installed RSS plenum from group buy. Butt dyno seems like response was more aggressive and would say more power. Won't dyno unless I get bored or feel like spending another $125. On 6 speed board there is a new mod being developed for appx. $200. Check out and give opinion. JW

Before you beat any one else up, this is "What does it mean". Lets say the engine fires first in cyl 1 then 2 then 5 then 3, 4 and 6 ( just as an example) one header collector would have cyl 1, 2 & 5 and the other 3, 4 & 6. And by the way, all engines do not do this. The name "firing order" did not come from header design. And who put you in charge of "beating people up"? Just maybe, you should beat your self up.

All engines release gas into the headers in the firing order. Not necessarily into one collector. That would mean there could be only one collector. Firing order is 1-6-2-4-3-5 in a 996. One, two and three are on one side, four, five and six on the other. So one collector sees 1-2-3-1-2-3.... The other sees 2-4-6-2-4-6.... The order is staggered but it is even and by rights, requires equal length primaries for best performance. An exhaust system that collects gas in the firing order of the entire engine would require one collector. That would mean running headers over the top or under the bottom. It is not practical in an engine with more than one bank of cylinders. What I was saying is that the order in which the cylinders fire is the order in which the gases exit. That is true of all engines. Never said the term comes from header design. Just that the gases enter the collector in the same order that the engine fires.

I find this a little odd... I can think of a lot of cars that see nice gains from headers. Mustangs (any year) see nice gains (03-04 cobras = huge gains) F-cars (any year) nice gains EVO's VIII-IX nice gains WRX and STi see okay gains C4, C5, and C6 Vettes see nice gains LS1 & LS2 GTO's see nice gains Porsche like many auto makers has to make compromises. It would be nice to see a group header dyno on one car in one day to test many sets of headers. This was done on NASIOC for the WRX and was a great wealth of info. FYI all headers performed better than stock, though this is a turbo application.

In my origonal post I stated that this method is impracticle in most cases and does require additional plumbing, one side of the engine to the other as well as matching runner lengths. But has been used in drag circles with some success multi cyl motorcycle engines and I believe even in early F1 engines. But bottom line still being, there are power gains to be had using this system on boxer and V engines. Again, I admit to this system being somewhat obscure, primarily because of the complexity, but going fast is all about choices and keeping an open mind.

Ray, I was just teasing you because it sounded like you were saying "the sky is blue because the sky is blue". Guess you didn't catch my implication that the order fired is the order expelled. In reply to your last post, yes there have been multiple bank, single collector setups but they generally require such long primaries that they are tuned for either too low an RPM or too late a pulse harmonic where they serve little use. Multicyl. M/C engines, if inline are a breeze as they are a single bank of cylinders. On the Porsche, you may be able to engineer a single collector setup that meets centrally under the engine. Interestingly, the primaries on my 996 911 are the same length but meet at intervals along a collection manifold (for lack of a better term). If Porsche tuned the length of these pipes, they should scavenge cyls 2,3,5,6 the same with a different signal for cyls 1 & 4. There may be within, the key why the Porsche headers outperformed a different set of equal length headers. The other strong possibility is that the aftermarket ones are either the wrong length tubes or are too big of a diameter to maintain velocity.

Just to bring this thread back. What other factors ie intake, mufflers, ecu flash have been done , or is this a stock motor with no mods other than headers ? I have also purchased a set of these headers on Ebay. Can you post dyno charts? Thanks

these headers i believe were manufactured in china. I saw a vendor selling a set of 1000 for $100 each. for a 996. I used to have the fabspeed headers and they look pretty much the same, probably someone sent a set of originals to China and copied the fabspeed ones.

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Or maybe the other way around? The Fabspeed's are not made here in the good ole US of A. There was a thread some time back about somebody finding out they were "lied" to when told they were USA products when in fact they are made in China or the such.

So before you all hit me, I know that I've an expensive German engineered sports car but I admit I got some $200 headers from e-bay and put them on my car last week. I did some internet research before and found out that the Fabspeed headers for >$1k have exactly the same specifications; length of pipes, steal, welding... I'm sure they all come from the same factory in China or Taiwan. BTW, who knows where the OEM headers are made. I doubt that German sweat dropped on them. Headers are not a high technology product. I thought $200 is not too much money for the header experiment and as I love to work on my car and try new things, I just bought them. The new equal length headers have about the same weight as the stock headers and look pretty solid. The gaskets are of good quality and the installation is a simple bold on 1 hour job (2 times 9 bolts). The acoustic result of the change is astonishing! With the stock headers my exhaust tone (GHL) was not very dominant (after a while I got used to it and wanted more). Now with the e-bay headers, the exhaust is always present, even at 2-3k RPM. The car sounds great! I think the headers changed a little bit the torque curve of my car (no dyno, just impression). At 2k RPM or when I shift upwards in city traffic, the car seems weaker but with already 3k RPM there seems to be more response to my throttle input and with WOT it just howls and for street driving in VA my car is too fast anyhow so WOT is reserved for the track and the occasional 2nd gear acceleration, entering a highway.

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Good butt dyno. That's what headers do.

anyone try these? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Maxsp...2607QQtcZphoto

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interesting.... so what about adding 200 cell cats to the mix here guys? I hear you get more top end at the expense of low end.... BUT if you install headers after the 200 cell cats the low end is restored right?

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Install it and dyno the results.

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I did also look at these. However, I couldn't really see any difference to the cheaper ones. In my opinion: same East Asian factory. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JVT-R...em330159401865

Had my car Dyno'd this Spring at Farnbacheloles, Danbury CT. With Revo chip, evo air intake, Fabspeed headers, Kip was able to get 380Hp, 330lb/ft on torque. He made the necessary adjustments needed in the soft and my car is very quick off the mark, and has great pull in low RPM's. The sound is awesome with the PSE and new headers, and I'm glad that I made these mods. The key in my opinion was the ECU upgrade. Just thought I would give some help to those looking for another opinion. Jay

Ebay Headers = Yard Art!

Does anyone know if these ebay headers will pass SMOG in CA? I am guessing NO. But I after reading this...I mean hey $250 plus maybe $50-$100 for install...it is a relatively CHEAP experiment right? I am just afraid of the CA EMISSIONS....cuz if they pass smog then its more headache. I am sure they will pass "visual" cuz I bet the smog guys have no clue what they are looking at...I am afraid of the tail pipe test. anyone have any insight?

Are you saying that the headers would somehow affect the outcome of a smog check? All they do is channel the exhaust to the cats then on to the mufflers. Equal lengths provide a means of more efficiently moving exhaust gasses from the engine thereby helping to enhance performance. As long as the engine was properly tuned and burning cleanly and the cats were operating....I don't know what effect the headers would have on an emissions test. There is no visual check done for headers.

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Sinner!

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Thanks Chuck..I guess you are right. Well I contacted the headers sellers and LUCKILY they are LOCAL to me. So they offer install to...so basically for about $300 I can have these babies installed. I am going to talk to some engineering friends of mine...I agree with some of the other posts. These are just bent pipes...as long as the welds are good and its 100% stainless steel...there isnt much high technology in a pair of headers. For $300 it is worth looking into. I will report more as I move forward! =)

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Not technology, no. But design, yes. On good ones, and most assuredly on the stock units, a lot of design and testing goes into those bendy bits to accomplish a specific objective. It is true to say that the less restriction you want, the simpler the design is, so if that's what you're looking for I'm sure you'll be happy.

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No I totally understand the R&D that goes into the DESIGN..but if these are a knockoff..and they copied someone else' proven design..then these should be good to go...plus they are "equal lenght" and are 100% stainless steel...and for $300 I figure its worth a test.

From what I've seen...other than being equal length, most of the headers now being manufactured overseas either copy some existing patent...that's been violated, or you have US companies maximizing profit margins by having them made overseas.....so someone else's R and D has gone into the headers now manufactured by the chinese and taiwanese. The only thing I've seen that seems to be critical and different, is how well the collector is designed and manufactured. Some of them are flat out UGLY and inefficient. There are also a lot of claims about using high grade 321 stainless.....which is a lot of hooey. To produce a cheap copy of a header, you use cheap labor and cheap material. That's not to say that they're all a POS....just that most of the time you get what you paid for. There was one discussion thread on Rennlist where the fellow posted the significant LOSS in performance as documented by dyno runs that he got out of the chinese headers he bought. His opinion was that it might make a good canoe anchor, but that's about it.

"There was one discussion thread on Rennlist where the fellow posted the significant LOSS in performance as documented by dyno runs that he got out of the chinese headers he bought. His opinion was that it might make a good canoe anchor, but that's about it." This IS it. Read the first post!

OOPS.................should have read the first part....sorry.