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THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHEthanol concerns
Leading reported evidence
Replace exhausts, stopped
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Read evidence and context
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Suggestion
There is absolutely no difference in the combustion of 100% gas or E10 that would create anything that could be sensed by the DME to adjust timing on an otherwise properly running engine, except that E10 would help reduce knock if it was present with 100% gasoline of the same type.
Leading evidence: 'Replace exhausts, stopped' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Adjust timing' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Soot in my tailpipe in a car that I ran Sunoco in for years.
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Indy cars have used ethanol based fuels for years......as well as methanol.
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Suggestion
There is absolutely no difference in the combustion of 100% gas or E10 that would create anything that could be sensed by the DME to adjust timing on an otherwise properly running engine, except that E10 would help reduce knock if it was present with 100% gasoline of the same type.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Adjust timing
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Suggestion
There is absolutely no difference in the combustion of 100% gas or E10 that would create anything that could be sensed by the DME to adjust timing on an otherwise properly running engine, except that E10 would help reduce knock if it was present with 100% gasoline of the same type.
Replace frame of reference in a slippery and lame effort
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Suggestion
Instead, you will rave and mock me and prevaricate and change the frame of reference in a slippery and lame effort to look smart and try to rally the other kids in the playground around you.
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Suggestion
There is absolutely no difference in the combustion of 100% gas or E10 that would create anything that could be sensed by the DME to adjust timing on an otherwise properly running engine, except that E10 would help reduce knock if it was present with 100% gasoline of the same type.
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Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Went to fill my truck at the Shell gas station I always use. Noticed a sign saying the gas, all types, has/is 10% ethanol, it was not like that the last time I went there 5 days ago. My concern is, can the 95 octane gas 10% ethanol be used in my MY99 911? It made no difference on my GMC MY99 truck.
You might find you mileage drop. There was madatory 10% ethanol from November-March where I used to live. I had a Taurus SHO back then and my mileage would drop from 22 to 18 like clockwork when the ethanol mix was used. It just doesn't have as much chemical energy in it as plain gas.
^^^ There might actually be a tiny performance GAIN. Higher octane is a byproduct of the inclusion of ethanol in the fuel, though it would probably be imperceptible in an engine that wasn't designed to require it.
In my experience, yes. The guys who work on my car won't race with methanol enhanced fuels. Although the octane rating is increased by ethanol (octane is not a substance, it's a property of fuel), it seems like some DMEs read the combustion of ethanol as pre-detonation and react accordingly, retarding the timing and enriching the mixture.
I've told this story before, so I won't repeat myself here. But the phenomenon has been proven to my complete satisfaction, and I avoid ethanol enhanced fuels like the plague.
That is hysterical.
You don't actually believe what you just stated regarding the computer reading the combustion as pre-detonation, do you? Not using ethenol based fuels in a race car is because ethanol reduces the BTU of the fuel and therefore power per volume and not because there is any change in combustion. Methanol has an even lower BTU than does ethanol and is not used in E10. E10 fuel is perfectly safe for your car.
Indy cars have used ethanol based fuels for years......as well as methanol.
Sounds like the guys who work on your car were playing with you and seeing how much you would fall for.
Here is what I believe: Timed laps. Soot in my tailpipe in a car that I ran Sunoco in for years. Changed exhausts, stopped running ethanol, clean tailpipe. An experienced Porsche racer and crew chief. Or how about the fact that Top Tier fuels use ethanol in their low and mid-grade fuels but NOT in their premium grade fuels. Why might that be, do you suppose?
Here is what I don't believe: An abusive, raving lunatic on the internet who will pick a fight over anything and has not once, ever, provided a scintilla of evidence to back up his rantings.
And, um, just guessing here, but I think Indy-car engines might just have their DMEs tuned especially for the fuel they use and the driving they do and therefore might be irrelevant (typically) to this discussion. Just a wild guess...
P.S. I'll speak slowly, here, so you can follow along... I did not say ethanol was unsafe in any car. I said that in some cars there is a performance loss.
You're right. But the octane rating number attached to gasoline grades rates its resistance to compression combustion, it doesn't quantify the amount of 'octane' in the fuel.
Sorry if I was imprecise.
So, just how would E10 based fuel cause pre-detonation where regular fuel would not? Don't avoid the subject I stated was incorrect which you always do. You state one thing and then when you are corrected, you spin the subject to something else.
Then you start arguing about something that no one disagreed with you on. I clearly stated that ethanol has a lower BTU and that is why most race cars do not use it. So WHY, the rant? Why are you talking about NASCAR?
Another distraction from your ridiculas statement about pre-detonation maybe?
Finally, knowing that you will be found out, you start with the personal attacks, hoping to discredit me in hope that, somehow, this will make you right. Well, sorry, you're still wrong about the "pre-detonation".
So, I ask you once again. How does an E10 fuel increase pre-detonation when scientificallyas well as in real world application, it has been proven that E10 fuel actually reduces the risk of both pre-ignition and detonation when compared to the same untreated fuel?
Please reread my post. I did not say it caused predetonation. (NASCAR was a mis-type, for which I apologize. I meant Indy, and it was you that brought it up, not I). Nor did I say that ethanol doesn't reduce the risk of it, in theory. What I said was that the little computer that runs your engine doesn't necessarily see it that way.
You don't read carefully. You have a chip on your shoulder the size of an Airstream trailer. You refuse to back up a word you say. Why on earth am I going to have a public debate with you about this? There is absolutely zero chance that it will be rational or productive. Instead, you will rave and mock me and prevaricate and change the frame of reference in a slippery and lame effort to look smart and try to rally the other kids in the playground around you. It's tiresome. I'm out.
Here is what you said: "........it seems like some DMEs read the combustion of ethanol as pre-detonation and react accordingly, retarding the timing and enriching the mixture".
So, I will rephrase my question: Which of the DME's out there would read the combustion of ethanol as pre-detonation? There is absolutely no difference in the combustion of 100% gas or E10 that would create anything that could be sensed by the DME to adjust timing on an otherwise properly running engine, except that E10 would help reduce knock if it was present with 100% gasoline of the same type.
I am interested in learning about these "some DMEs" that are somehow so intelligent that they know that there is ethanol in your fuel and determine they should retard the timing when there is no knock caused by the E10. Since a DME is designed to adjust fuel/air mixture as needed, the only reason the DME would retard timing is because the knock sensors tell them to. If your engine is not knocking with 100% gas, adding 10% ethanol to the same gas will never cause knock.
You further state: "....the phenomenon has been proven to my complete satisfaction". It must be a salesman's dream.
If you were aware of the way your car detects pre-ignition and detonation, you would realize how funny your statement is.
Now, do what you promised and stay out of this discussion.
You don't know what you're talking about, I'm afraid. Just how do you think a DME gets its information about predetonation? If you knew how a knock sensor works, and were a reasonable human being, you might be at least a little bit open to the idea that it's possible for a piezoelectric microphone to send information to the DME about other kinds of abnormal combustion besides real predetonation. Knock sensors, especially on older cars, can be easily fooled.
Contrary to what they may have told you at Hogwarts School of Auto Mechanics, your engine is not full of little tiny men in lab coats with little wee clipboards, peering into combustion chambers between power strokes.
And nobody was selling me anything on this particular day. It was just an intelligent conversation with experienced people with real qualifications, sharing something valuable they'd learned empirically about certain cars. You should try it sometime.
You still didn't answer my question. However, you continue to change subjects since you cannot find any sensable support to your statement. Now, for some reason you are talking about "older cars" and not the 996. You really should not be drinking so much on Good Friday.
This behavior is typical of someone who learned about a subject by listening to others rather than first hand experience.
Rant away. I'm going elsewhere.
[QUOTE=1999Porsche911;5235920]Not using ethenol based fuels in a race car is because ethanol reduces the BTU of the fuel and therefore power per volume and not because there is any change in combustion. Methanol has an even lower BTU than does ethanol and is not used in E10. Indy cars have used ethanol based fuels for years......as well as methanol.
[QUOTE]
+1
BTU per unit. Oh BTW, what type of oil should I use?
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
